Solar Wind and LEDs

[berrtus]

Solar and Wind power are great ways to reduce your dependence on electricity from municipal authorities. *This I find and interesting area of convergence between the green groups and maybe those that would describe themselves as self reliant. *Obviously the politics of the two are much different. *However, I think self reliance and non dependence on energy go together.

LED lights lessen the number of watts needed to light a house by a drastic margin. *500% less compared to incandescent and maybe half or so compared to cfl which has toxic mercury that must be disposed. *Taken together LED lighting, Solar and Wind make a great combination. *

I would note in California they are considering requiring houses to use zero net energy from the grid by 2020. *I wonder how far the movement can go. *I think it gets a bit carried away but on the other hand complete independence from the entire issue is better than someone telling you what you can and can't do.

[kmccune]

Sure would take out a lot of the stragic importance of power plants ;D conservation needs to be addressed first(the less you use -the cheaper the kwh not the other way around) then solar, thats way I would go if circumstances were a bit different, then renewables-then fossil-then nukes to take the slack.All you dear sojourners need to check out Robert Zubrin-read him even if it seems a bit far out-then think about it- then it will become much clearer about whats practical for the future of the human race all good minds and practical people are welcome-Think outside the box-Kevin

[Anon001]

Berrtus,

There has been much discussion in these forums about solar, wind, and LED's. I will also add that the ONLY reason I went solar was for the independence. The "green" aspect had nothing to do with it. Also, LED's are not practical for household lighting and they are just not far enough advanced and they don't put out enough light.

I have been 100% off grid sincd May 1998. I use solar and would like to have wind for backup. I use cold cathode lights for household lighting. They use 3.7 watts per light and work a heck of a lot better than LED's and are much more efficient than a 13 watt CFL (compact flourescent). I think the cold cathode lights are just as bright as the CFL's at 1/10th the power consumption.

Are you off-grid yet? I don't regret it one bit.

[jott]

LEDs are still mostly just hype, they are only good for when you need a very small amount of light in a focused spot. LEDs do not beat CFL or FL yet for efficiency, and they cost more.

anyone that is thinking of spending some money on LEDs should read the DOEs solid state lighting test results.

[berrtus]

Thanks for the tip on cold cathode. *The ones I quickly found were 8 Watts and 320 Lumens or 40 Lumens per Watt which competes with some LED lighting applications. * LED lights in reasonably inexpensive commercial versions can achieve 80 Lumens per Watt. The actual commercial version of cold cathode I found was 25,000 hours but that may be similar to LED lights that usually advertise 50,000 hours. LED lighting technology is advancing soon they would achieve 100 Lumens per Watt and 50,000 hours at very competitive prices.

With regard to the comments about LEDs being less efficient than CFL or FL I disagree. *Commercial version LED lights achieve greater Lumens per Watt. *Again more than 80 Lumens per Watt while CFL and FL only 60 to 72 and I believe typically less. *Further the CFL and FL use mercury which is toxic. *In addition the CFL and FL do not last as long and must be replaced many times compared to one LED light leading to disposal issues. *I can't get Wikipedia to load but it is a good source for this data.

[Anon001]

The cold cathodes last anywhere from 20,000 to 30,000 hours... and the alternative energy distributors continue to recommend an alternative to the LED's claiming they do not put out enough light. That's all I know. And my cold cathodes are rated at 3.7 watts.

[berrtus]

One issue with LEDs is do they last as long as claimed. *That's always my concern. *You can get the CREE chips that's a US company and I believe their specs are accurate. But there are other variables. *First they require a driver to convert to DC and that can go out. *Next, they must properly radiate heat. *Those are issues external to the quality of the LEDs. *As far as brightness they are as bright as you like. *You can get a streetlight. *There are six Watt bulbs that are as bright as about 40 Watts incandescent.

[Anon001]

Sorry, but I have nothing to say to someone that joins this forum, immediately posts his web based business in Members Businesses and then sends me spam (through PM). We know the truth about LED's. You are wasting your breath. Thanks anyway. But, I'm through with this thread.

[jott]

Been busy the last week but I did want to comment on this topic.
Paul thanks for pointing out the post in member businesses, I would have missed that. I did not see that is was someone trying to make a buck at first.


Anyway
this is a prime example of what is wrong with the LED industry.

They tell you 80 lumens per watt, but that is only the high end stuff that is not what is in most LED fixtures. Even if it is the high end one that is the efficiency of the LED not the fixture. You still have losses in the power supply that are not counted.


LED fixtures that I have seen can not honestly claim to be more then “competitive” with a good CFL fixture in efficiency, and they cost much more. Compared to florescent it is not even close. T8HO lamps with a good electronic ballast is right about 100lm/W, that is with lamp and power supply no LED on the market today can get close.

Another problem with LEDs are the way data is presented. With most lamps the light output is much higher when it is new and then it fades quickly then it levels off after a burn in time. Florescent lamps are rated for light output after a burn in time, LED fixtures claim the output right at the start. Also florescent lamps rate life till light output is half of the initial output. Who knows what a LED is rated at?

And finally the comment about mercury, is this some kind of scare tactic. The amount of mercury in lamps is very small, and in most quality lamps is locked up in a metal compound in the lamp that releases it when heated. So for the mercury to come out the lamp would have to be on at the time, but again it is a very small amount. As for disposal of lamps, 100% of a florescent is recyclable. And the big difference here is the energy input to make an LED is much higher then that of a florescent lamp. In most parts of the world that energy comes from a coal fired power plant. That means more mercury in the environment.

I don’t want to come off as anti-LED they do have some good uses, and I do spec them from time to time. But why not rate the LED the same way other lamps are rated. And why dose it always seem that the way to sell an LED is to lie about florescent efficiency and to use scare tactics.

[farrier]

I'm a little late in this discussion but I would like to know a little more about these cold cathode bulbs. We use the CFL bulbs and quite like them but if we can have the same brightness and use less power I would like to give them a try. Do they retail under a different name as I have not heard the term before. Thanks a bunch for you help.

[Anon001]

Farrier,
12vman is the one that turned me on to them...

Here it is.... Click here for cold cathode lights. (http://www.xoxide.com/dual-white-cold-cathode-kit.html)

I was using 13w 12v CFL's and these are as bright as those. But as you know a CFL puts out much more light than the equivalent wattage in an incandescant bulb. They are cheap enough that you can try one and see if you like it. They operate on 12v and you MUST make certain of the polarity. If you reverse polarity it ruins the little inverter that comes with them.

They also give a "blue" type light rather than the yellowish/white light of a CFL.

Good luck. I sure like mine.

[johnjmw]

Paul, and everyone else, I was searching for the Cathode lights and found them for about $5.50.
http://www.coolerguys.com/840556012009.html
Sorry I have not played with making the link easier to read. I was given a Cathode over the weekend to check out and could not believe the intense light it gave out! I've been using LEDs at my cabin and will be switching to these.
John

[Anon001]

John your link worked just fine. I have changed my indoor lighting to these. 12vman has also made outdoor lighting with two pair that hang in an enclosure outside that lights up his yard. Cool, huh?
Paul

[rivahmom]

.

[farrier]

Paul, thanks for the info., appreciate it. It looks to me like I cannot use these with standard lighting fixtures as I can with the CFL bulbs. Is this the case.....

[Anon001]

Farrier,
You are correct. You have to remake a fixture which is what I did. However, I have been collecting deer sheds and I am going to see about making a couple fixtures with the sheds and the cathodes. If you are creative enough, you can make these work with the ceiling fixture bases.
Paul

[johnjmw]

Cool is an understatement. Yea, I like the look of his fixture when my Wife and I were there. When I found the site I told my Mary that now I can buy 10 and see f I can get a bulk discount above that price. She rolled her eyes and gave me a few other words. Guess I'll put off ordering them for a little bit.

I think I can light up my whole cabin to reading brightness with 3 or 4 of them easily. I was thinking of slicing a section of 4" or 6" pvc in half lengthwise and spray the inside curve with silver paint then mount them in the curve. Quick and easy just not sure how long it will last.
John

[Anon001]

John, I had the mushroom lights. i took them down and turned the base over. That allowed me to hide the little inverter on the top side. Over the desk, I too some sheeting that was about 18" wide and white gloss look. I arched it, drilled a couple holes for white thin cable ties to go around two tubes and hold them tight to the metal. Then I put the inverter on the back side and hung it above my desk. It works great. It's bright enough that my cam even works well with it. lol

Why would you paint the inside of the pvc silver? Wouldn't white reflect more light than silver?

Another thing to keep in mind is that these only work on 12v DC. You can't use it with 110v AC.

[johnjmw]

I only have 12Vdc at my cabin. The Power lines end 1/3 to 1/2 mile up the road. I don't have the solar panels installed yet, but take a battery pack down with me for lights and a fan.
The silver/chrome, I thought, would reflect better than the white. You are probably right white would glare less.
John

[Anon001]

John,
I'm not sure the white would glare less, but I just assumed it would reflect better making it seem brighter than silver. I may be wrong, but that is just what I assumed. Paul

[johnjmw]

Paul tell you what. I'll do one of each and let you know. A little research wont hurt me. What size pipes? I was looking at splitting a 6inch. 3inch or 4inch I thought would not recess the bulbs enough.
John

[Anon001]

I think any size... But, I wouldn't want them recessed too much.

[Dave]

Paul,

Great information on the Cold Cathode!

I have a trailer on my land that we are in the process of clearing for a future homestead and for power I have been charging marine batteries to run the internal trailer lights. Something tells me this will use quite a bit less power than the 12DC lighting already installed in the trailer. I will just need to find a creative way to mount it.

My problem is, I have 4 children who LOVE to leave the lights on! These might make that tendency of they're a little more bearable!

Dave

[Anon001]

Paul,

Great information on the Cold Cathode!

I have a trailer on my land that we are in the process of clearing for a future homestead and for power I have been charging marine batteries to run the internal trailer lights. Something tells me this will use quite a bit less power than the 12DC lighting already installed in the trailer. I will just need to find a creative way to mount it.

My problem is, I have 4 children who LOVE to leave the lights on! These might make that tendency of they're a little more bearable!

Dave

Dave, I've been following your thread about your place. Two things. With alternative energy, you have to keep the kids from leaving the lights on. LOL... Also, about your marine batteries. Marine/RV batteries claim to be a deep cycle battery. But, they are not a deep cycle battery. They are a hybrid of a deep cycle and an automotive battery. The best "inexpensive" option for batteries are the 6v golf cart batteries. Even those vary in quality among manufacturers. An automotive battery will only last about 6 months in an alternative energy situation. A marine/RV battery may last 1 to 2 years. However, the golf cart batteries will last 4 to 6 years on average. My last ones lasted 6 1/2 years. I paid somewhere around $94.50. I did not have to pay sales tax since it is for the home and the home contains a farm office. So, not only would I look into the cold cathodes, but I would consider my option for batteries.

Good luck. I look forward to continuing to read your progress.

[Dave]

Paul,

No Doubt! I am always following behind the kids. I am thinking about wiring some sort of essential grid to power things like our propane refrigerator, water pump and other needed items and have some sort of cut-off for the rest of the electrical. My main culprit is our two year old who is fascinated with turning switches on and off.

Yes, batteries, that was a subject I wanted to get in too.

I bought the marine/RV battery simply because the cost of about $60/each for 75AH batteries. I figured I wouldn't buy the right or best batteries the first time around so if I make a mistake might as well be a cheap as possible one!

To be honest, I am surprised how little power we use. The 75AH battery seems to suffice for about 36 to 48 hours. I will occasionally startup the generator to run bigger appliances like our microwave during meals. I assume the battery gets a charge every time I plug the trailer in to AC, though I haven't verified that in my manual so I bring it home and charge it before going out.

What brand of golf cart batteries do you use with good success? Obviously I would need at least two batteries in series to get the 12VDC I need in the trailer. How many AH are they?

Thank you in advance!

Dave

[Anon001]

Dave,
The batteries I use are Interstate. However, another poster here uses the ones that Sam's sells (I think it's Sams) and he gets long life as well. The batteries I buy have 210 AH storage. However when you wire two together the two still have 210 AH, but if you wire 2 pair of batteries then you double the AH.

I agree with the "training" period with a cheaper battery. lol.. I did something similar.

As to the charging. In most camping trailers, the batteries do get charged when you are plugged into AC. My parents always had RV's and camping trailers when I was growing up. After us kids were gone from home, they travelled a lot. However, when they were home, he had the RV plugged into AC with a timer set to come on for a certain amount of time periodically to keep the batteries topped off.

As far as the elecctric for fridge. I use propane. The fridge may cost a bit more, but it should last me the rest of my life.... There are no compressors or moving parts to wear out and they operate silently. People cringe at the thought of the cost of propane. However, the propane fridges for home use are very very efficient.

The items you mention using electric for are the biggest electrical consumption items found in a home. Lights and such are nothing compared to electric fridges, water pumps, etc. However, you can't use an a/c on solar without spending thousands of dollars. And in your location, you may not want to be without a/c, I don't know.

Have fun experimenting..lol...

By the way, I use propane for water heat, cookstove, refrigerator and use less than 200 gallons per year. I bought 200 gallons last May and I still haven't had to refill it.

[Dave]

By the way, I use propane for water heat, cookstove, refrigerator and use less than 200 gallons per year. I bought 200 gallons last May and I still haven't had to refill it.

Paul,

That is a great statistic! Nothing like real data versus what the manufacture claims. Just a point of clarification, the frig in my trailer is propane, but also has the ability to run off of AC (I guess this is semi standard in trailers now days though mine is a 1995 model). However, if the consumption rate is low enough, I might consider just buying a larger frig that we could always have running off of propane and be able to leave things at the property that would otherwise spoil.


My second thought is this; considering that we visit the property once every week to two weeks, how much watt capacity would be needed to charge 200AH worth of batteries over 5 days?

Ok, I am going to give this a shot so I am making some assumptions here. I probably get at least 4 hours of sun a day in Florida that is good for the output rating of any given solar panel array. I know this is the sunshine state but I am trying to account for rainy/cloudy days. I imagine I will use about 100AH of power over a weekend leaving about 100AH on the battery(ies).

That being said:

2400Watt-hours = 200AH x 12 volts (system total)
Assume 4 hours per day of sun
Watt-hours needed = 100 AH x 12 Volts = 1200 Watt-hours
60 Watts of PV modules x 4 Hours x 5 days= 1200 Watt hours
One 75 watt PV panels will provide 75 Watts x 4 Hours x 5 days or 1500 watt-hours of charge (energy).

So does a 75watt or larger panel sound about right?

Dave

[farrier]

Hi All, I've been following your iscussion with interest. In regard to batteries we have been using Crown 225 AH 6 volt deep cycle batteries in a 12 V configuration. These cost us just over 100.00 Can. each a couple of years ago. I understand that they should easily run for 5 -6 years under constant use..

Just a little aside, I tried some CFL bulbs in a tri-light bedside lamp and low and behold only a small part of the coil lights up.....any ideas ?

[Anon001]

Paul,

That is a great statistic! Nothing like real data versus what the manufacture claims. Just a point of clarification, the frig in my trailer is propane, but also has the ability to run off of AC (I guess this is semi standard in trailers now days though mine is a 1995 model). However, if the consumption rate is low enough, I might consider just buying a larger frig that we could always have running off of propane and be able to leave things at the property that would otherwise spoil.

Dave, my fridge is a home stand alone floor model. I don't have the 110 or th 12v option with it. It is just propane. I like it.

My second thought is this; considering that we visit the property once every week to two weeks, how much watt capacity would be needed to charge 200AH worth of batteries over 5 days?

Ok, I am going to give this a shot so I am making some assumptions here. I probably get at least 4 hours of sun a day in Florida that is good for the output rating of any given solar panel array. I know this is the sunshine state but I am trying to account for rainy/cloudy days. I imagine I will use about 100AH of power over a weekend leaving about 100AH on the battery(ies).

That being said:

* *2400Watt-hours = 200AH x 12 volts (system total)
* *Assume 4 hours per day of sun
* *Watt-hours needed = 100 AH x 12 Volts = 1200 Watt-hours
* *60 Watts of PV modules x 4 Hours x 5 days= 1200 Watt hours
* *One 75 watt PV panels will provide 75 Watts x 4 Hours x 5 days or 1500 watt-hours of charge (energy).

So does a 75watt or larger panel sound about right?

This is where I hope 12vman is watching. lol... I never worry too much about the math any more and can't remember how to do the calculations but I think they come second nature to him. So, he will answer your questions, I'm sure.

Paul

[Anon001]

Hi All, I've been following your iscussion with interest. In regard to batteries we have been using Crown 225 AH *6 volt deep cycle batteries in a 12 V configuration. These cost us just over 100.00 Can. each a couple of years ago. I understand that they should easily run for 5 -6 years under constant use..

Just a little aside, I tried some CFL bulbs in a tri-light bedside lamp and low and behold only a small part of the coil lights up.....any ideas ?

I assume your light fixtures are wired for 12v? And..... did you use a 110v CFL or a 12v CFL? If you had it matched up correctly, the next thing to check would be the actual voltage at the light socket. If it is too far a run from the battery or any other problem causing a voltage drop, the CFL's will fail prematurely. That is the only drawback. I would measure the voltage at the socket and at the batteries.... if you are sure you used the correct voltage bulb with a corresponding light socket.

[12vman]

You should never drain a battery any less than 25% of its rated capacity..

A 200aHr. battery actually only has a maxium of 50aHr. to play with.

[Dave]

Thank you 12vman.... I normally forget to add that fudge factor in my calculations..

Dave

[berrtus]

Been busy the last week but I did want to comment on this topic.
Paul thanks for pointing out the post in member businesses, I would have missed that. I did not see that is was someone trying to make a buck at first.

Anyway
this is a prime example of what is wrong with the LED industry.

They tell you 80 lumens per watt, but that is only the high end stuff that is not what is in most LED fixtures. Even if it is the high end one that is the efficiency of the LED not the fixture. You still have losses in the power supply that are not counted.

LED fixtures that I have seen can not honestly claim to be more then “competitive” with a good CFL fixture in efficiency, and they cost much more. Compared to florescent it is not even close. T8HO lamps with a good electronic ballast is right about 100lm/W, that is with lamp and power supply no LED on the market today can get close.

Another problem with LEDs are the way data is presented. With most lamps the light output is much higher when it is new and then it fades quickly then it levels off after a burn in time. Florescent lamps are rated for light output after a burn in time, LED fixtures claim the output right at the start. Also florescent lamps rate life till light output is half of the initial output. Who knows what a LED is rated at?

And finally the comment about mercury, is this some kind of scare tactic. ... sorry I had to delete this part my post is too long. ...

I found this the best post and actually the most factual one so I quoted it. I believe, however, that my original post was factual and correct and not an example of 'Whats wrong with the LED industry'

First some more facts from Wikipedia.
Fluorescents lifespan 6,000 - 15,000 hours.
I am not trying to contradict the post but tubes were mentioned and this is the figure they have for bulbs. If someone can find a better figure thats fine but not everyone is using tubes some use bulbs. And I am assuming the fluorescent tubes last longer than the bulbs.

LEDs are typically claimed to last 50,000 hours and for the CREE LEDs that is probably accurate. This IS based on the fact that they do lose brightness I think its about 3% for 5,000 hours. They should ideally not go out after 50,000 but instead they would be dimmer.

Lumens poer Watt:
Again wikipedia qoutes 60 - 72 for the Fluoresecents. I am not saying the 100 qoute above is inaccurate. I saw such a tube on line rated at 82. But again its not fair to compare bulbs to tubes. Personally I do not like tubes. I do like bulbs. The LED bulbs are actually in a similar range but it is increasing and moving up to the 100 Lumens per Watt range and that includes the drivers that may use 3% to 10%. An LED 6 Watt bulb can get up to 500 Lumens using the CREE LEDs. Again that includes the drivers. Also the price has been and continues to reduce quickly.

Mercury:
Mercury is a significant issue including the poisoning of factory workers. I do not believe the disposal requirements of CFLs are either convenient nor consistently used. Most of the world just throws them away and that also can harm waste collection workers. See the EPA site for disposal if one ever breaks its not an easy task. And who can say what kids do when the play and break the tubes.

LEDs have many advantages including this short list: No mercury, no hum, instant start, lower replacement requirements, less maintenance, lenses that efficiently focus the light, greater lumens per Watt (typical bulb versus typical bulb). Taken together they are better bulbs. The cost is rapidly coming down. This is perhaps changing the possible victor of this debate to my side as we proceed.

Now the downside on LEDs is the drivers and whether the manufacturer uses a good one. The LEDs may last 50,000 hours or cheaper ones 35,000 hours, but what if the driver fails sooner. This is the real issue. Otherwise sorry or happy to say LEDs are the clear winner hands down. The lifetime of 50,000 hours is a very long time and erases any initial cost disadvantages. And the LEDs are just better lights. BUT that depends on the drivers working. If they fail after 4 months obviously the LED light loses by comparison. The Warranty period may be from 1 - 3 years so it doesn't last the full 50,000 hours. Further if the lights prematurely fail it erases many other advantages even if it is warrantied and no one wants to bother with warrantied replacements. When I can find a light with drivers that are reliably guaranteed to last the 50,000 hours I would figure I am the victor here. But for now I am going to just keep presenting my side as for some reason I notice what seems to be a bit of unfair criticism of a very promising and legitimate technology. And I can't always respond ASAP but if it's in 6 months I may have more information to the cause.

[12vman]

I'll agree somewhat on the lumen factor but to me, it's the quality of the light being produced by the LED.

LED light is very straight line, much like a laser, which causes distinct shadowing and is very hard to diffuse using lens material of any type. The best effect that I have found is to direct the light from an LED to a white surface and radiate from that. This breaks up the straight line light and produces a more pleasant effect for general lighting. By doing this, the lumen factor drops and is not a winner in my book.

[berrtus]

What type of light are you using? Does it have a lens?

[12vman]

Homebrew fixtures using standard 10mm high intenesity LED's. (NOT hi-power)

I've tried several different types of diffusing materials and was never totally satisfied.