New Urbanism

[Buck]

Europe is way ahead of America in moving to
a better way to live. This site shows how and
why this needs to happen in America very
soon.

To me, this looks very much like the America
I grew up in the 1950's when it comes to train
use.

http://www.newurbanism.org/

[MooseToo]

goebbels 101 -
take a few unrelated true facts, a plethora of untrue facts and educated guesses and create a seemingly logical overall premise - one that will permit control over vast numbers of people -
.......sorry, can't fool them circle flies -

[richard]

Are you seriously comparing new urbanism to Nazism?

You simply HAVE to give your reasons for saying this.

[TheUnboundOne]

Buck,

Three words: Boston Big Dig.

[Buck]

Buck,

Three words: Boston Big Dig.

To which I'll reply.... Corruption.

What my link says MUST happen in America or our nation will collapse
from the weight of the American Dream.

[Buck]

The reason America must move toward
Urbanism is clear as shown here.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHr8OzaloLM

[TheUnboundOne]

Dear Buck,

You wrote:

To which I'll reply.... Corruption.

What my link says MUST happen in America or our nation will collapse
from the weight of the American Dream.

Here's the thing, though: Boston is just one example of the failure of light rail and mass transit. *MARTA is Atlanta, GA's rathole equivalent of the Boston Big Dig, and Charlotte, NC also has a crap-can light rail system that is over-budget and crappily run. *(On the Charlotte system, it's basically "on your honor" to pay for a ticket, the ticket collector rarely comes around, and on the last train, it doesn't go all the way to the last stop on the itenerary. *Commuters on the last train end up having to walk miles to their last stop or--surprise, surprise--having to use taxi cabs.)

::) *:P *>:(

All over the country, attempts at light rail are always end up over budget, and the rails don't go anywhere people want to go. *By their nature, they are nowhere near as versatile as automobiles. * Often accompanying light rails are attempts to restrict building of housing units to areas around the rails, in an attempt to force people to use the rails.

(No surprise, New Urbanism has it's roots in Stalinist Russia of the 1930s.)

And the rails and stations are magnets for chemical accidents, gangland criminals, and, lest we forget 3/11/04, 7/07/05 and 7/21/05, terrorists.

Rihanna says it best:

"Shut Up and Drive"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WAapKx2TvM

[Buck]

Dear Buck,

You wrote:


Here's the thing, though: Boston is just one example of the failure of light rail and mass transit. *MARTA is Atlanta, GA's rathole equivalent of the Boston Big Dig, and Charlotte, NC also has a crap-can light rail system that is over-budget and crappily run. *(On the Charlotte system, it's basically "on your honor" to pay for a ticket, the ticket collector rarely comes around, and on the last train, it doesn't go all the way to the last stop on the itenerary. *Commuters on the last train end up having to walk miles to their last stop or--surprise, surprise--having to use taxi cabs.)

::) *:P *>:(

All over the country, attempts at light rail are always end up over budget, and the rails don't go anywhere people want to go. *By their nature, they are nowhere near as versitile as automobiles. * Often accompanying light rails are attempts to restrict building of housing units to areas around the rails, in an attempt to force people to use the rails.

(No surprise, New Urbanism has it's roots in Stalinist Russia of the 1930s.)

And the rails and stations are magnets for chemical accidents, gangland criminals, and, lest we forget 3/11/04, 7/07/05 and 7/21/05, terrorists.

Rihanna says it best:

"Shut Up and Drive"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WAapKx2TvM


While you ment well this post is regressive to the max. The hard
truth is that the automobile and it's infrastructure is NOT sustainable
in any future world that will come about as the oil comes well past
peak. It just ain't gonna happen.

You can't get different results doing the same thing. The use of
automobiles is the same thing over and over.

[MooseToo]

baloney - first, turn loose of all our domestic crude - second, shift to alternate power production - third, develop alternative vehicle fuel - fourth, stop whining -

[HockeyFan]

I would rather see more goods shipped via rail in this country, and then only trucked regionally. As it is, we have too many truckers going back and forth cross country, wasting fuel.
It's true that those big rigs get better mileage than cars, but the rail gets much better than the big rigs.
It would be a fuel savings to shut down the long routes of trucks, and just truck shorter distances (likely just within a few hundred miles).

Within metropolitian(sp?) areas, it would be good to have rail, but as stated earlier, they rarely go eveywhere that people want to go. Plus, in the cities that have rail service, this service is partially funded via federal dollars, which means that there are "donor" areas of the country that are taxed in order to provide that rail service. Therefore, there's almost no way feasible that most cities in this country will ever have rail service (at least federally subsidized).
The most we can hope for in most cities is maybe a commuter rail service to various areas of town, of which people can take the bus or drive to get to one of these stations.
I think our sidewalks need to be made wider and more people are likely to be on bikes in the future. Consider the obesity issues in this country, that's probably not a bad thing.
Necessity will cause us to evolve, as far as how society does thing. It's just a matter of time, and unfortunately, there are too many people that don't want to change, so the change is going to be painful.

[Buck]

baloney - first, turn loose of all our domestic crude - second, shift to alternate power production - *third, develop alternative vehicle fuel - fourth, stop whining -

Now there's a well researched and well presented & thoughful response
that added nothing to the discussion. Nothing at all.........

[oldnndway]

Light rail and subways applied correctly work fairly well.
New York and Atlanta are good examples.
Houston and Dallas not such good examples (I think)
Vegas monorail is neat if you want to travel around the strip or to the convention center but not for much else, but it's still a pretty cool way to get around.

I wonder if all the peak oil equations included the newer Brazil discoveries.
Or how about all the untapped deposits in ANWR and off both east and west coast of the US as well as several of eastern Europes' seas ?
I didn't think so.

There is a lot of oil still undiscovered and lots more that technology is only now being devised to get.
We are a long way from running out of oil.

Gasoline is a different problem.
Peak production has long since been passed.
We need more refining capacity and are getting it here.
Motiva is basically building a new refinery at Port Arthur, Texas
It will be the largest in the US I believe.
We need more...lots more of them.

We need nuclear plants making electricity too.
That alone would free up jillions of barrels of oil.

[oldnndway]

The last thing in the world I would ever hope to see the US doing is emulating Europe.

[Buck]

I would rather see more goods shipped via rail in this country, and then only trucked regionally. *As it is, we have too many truckers going back and forth cross country, wasting fuel.
It's true that those big rigs get better mileage than cars, but the rail gets much better than the big rigs.
It would be a fuel savings to shut down the long routes of trucks, and just truck shorter distances (likely just within a few hundred miles).

Within metropolitian(sp?) areas, it would be good to have rail, but as stated earlier, they rarely go eveywhere that people want to go. *Plus, in the cities that have rail service, this service is partially funded via federal dollars, which means that there are "donor" areas of the country that are taxed in order to provide that rail service. *Therefore, there's almost no way feasible that most cities in this country will ever have rail service (at least federally subsidized).
The most we can hope for in most cities is maybe a commuter rail service to various areas of town, of which people can take the bus or drive to get to one of these stations.
I think our sidewalks need to be made wider and more people are likely to be on bikes in the future. *Consider the obesity issues in this country, that's probably not a bad thing.
Necessity will cause us to evolve, as far as how society does thing. *It's just a matter of time, and unfortunately, there are too many people that don't want to change, so the change is going to be painful.


"I would rather see more goods shipped via rail in this country, and then only trucked regionally. As it is, we have too many truckers going back and forth cross country, wasting fuel."
This is the way it was 30 yrs ago. Rail then truck to drop points from
rail head.

You're right there are to damn many semi-trucks and all due to the
interstate system that was intended to speed military vehicles to
defend America. A good idea co-opted by greedy industry.

As to the rest of your post I think in time you'll come to see rail and
America's whole infrastructure roll back the clock a bit to some of
the way America used to do it. It made sense then and it makes sense
now.

[WileyCoyote]

Rail - BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Sorry, but I know one of the CEOs of a rail company. Their thinking is very clear - they are at anywhere from 60% to 120% of capacity on any given rail line, any given day, anywhere in the country. They actually pulled UP many rail lines, discontinued service, over much of the US. Why? Because the fewer rail lines they have, the more they can charge, the more they make. RR's are not hurting. Government will buy the land and pay to build the rail when and where they think it is needed. This equals 0 expenditure for the rail system. Also their operating budgets are partially paid for by gummint, so they don't care what happens in the rest of the transportation world.
Why expand xportation lines when to do so would cause lower costs for shipping, and therefore fewer profits for them?

[Buck]

Rail - BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Sorry, but I know one of the CEOs of a rail company. Their thinking is very clear - they are at anywhere from 60% to 120% of capacity on any given rail line, any given day, anywhere in the country. They actually pulled UP many rail lines, discontinued service, over much of the US. Why? Because the fewer rail lines they have, the more they can charge, the more they make. RR's are not hurting. Government will buy the land and pay to build the rail when and where they think it is needed. This equals 0 expenditure for the rail system. Also their operating budgets are partially paid for by gummint, so they don't care what happens in the rest of the transportation world.
Why expand xportation lines when to do so would cause lower costs for shipping, and therefore fewer profits for them?

Rail barons have always felt this way from the very beginning. It's
matters not at the end of the day. The good rail does is undeniable
in scope for the whole country.

Then there is always the possiblity that rail could be nationalized if
the rail barons get too greedy. 8)

[onelook]

Well, wouldn't a Nationalized Rail System solve ALL our problems?!?!?!?
(insert a note of scarcasm here)

A Nationalized anything is ALWAYS a mistake.

[MooseToo]

Now there's a well researched and well presented & thoughful response
that added nothing to the discussion. Nothing at all.........


i feel SO inadequate - some day, buck, when i grow up i hope to be as heart-warming, as interesting, as intellectual, and, as pipe-knowledgeable as you are - maybe i'll just keep reading your wisdom and pray for the best - keep up your inspirational work and the world will be so much better for it -





















just how do you type "gagging" noises ?

[TheUnboundOne]

Buck,

You wrote:

While you ment well this post is regressive to the max. The hard
truth is that the automobile and it's infrastructure is NOT sustainable
in any future world that will come about as the oil comes well past *
peak. It just ain't gonna happen. *

You can't get different results doing the same thing. The use of
automobiles is the same thing over and over.

And how "sustainable" are rails and buses? *Are you aware of how much fuel they burn? *And if you're a believer in "global warming," have you ever smelled the exhaust from either a train or a bus?? *And if pollutants are bad, doesn't it make sense that people are better off if they are free to move away from concentrations of pollution with individual vehicles rather than corralled into train depots and bus stops?

And where am I "regressive" or "wanting the same thing over and over." *Hell, I'm still waiting for my robot and air-car.

8)

And speaking of "regressive," you're the one who said this:

As to the rest of your post I think in time you'll come to see rail and *
America's whole infrastructure roll back the clock a bit to some of
the way America used to do it. It made sense then and it makes sense
now. *



To paraphrase The Bard, methinks you doth protesteth too much.

::)

[TheUnboundOne]

Dear Oldnndway,

Howdy, Oldnndway! *Are you a member or fan of the band Old and in the Way?

;) ;D

What you say about oil, refineries, and nuclear power is all correct. *However, you also said:

Light rail and subways applied correctly work fairly well.
New York and Atlanta are good examples.


I think Bernie Goetz would beg to differ about New York subways. *Anyplace where you can't legally shoot predators is no place to be.

Also, Atlanta's MARTA system was the butt of jokes from the Late, Great Southern Humorist Lewis Grizzard almost 30 years ago. *From what I had seen of MARTA trains 6 years ago, they looked like forboding, run-down places on steel wheels, and, of course, MARTA still doesn't make a dent in the traffic in Atlanta. *

If it's any indicator, Atlanta's talk station, WSB AM 750 has traffic updates literally every 15 minutes, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. *

WSB AM 750
http://wsbradio.com

Here is an article on the very subject of Atlanta's traffic:

Magazine: Atlanta commute is the worst
By ARIEL HART
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 05/02/08
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories/2008/05/02/forbes_commute_0502.html

If you ask me, it is not you, but the railway, that is Old and in the Way.

;D

[TheUnboundOne]

Buck,

Another thing: These "New Urbanists" in the YouTube video want us to have "more walkable, more diverse neighborhoods."

Walking? ??? If mankind had to go back to walking and the bicycles that they showed in the video and relying solely on local economies, that would literally mean death and poverty for millions, and certainly no place for the handicapped, the young, or the aged. Where is the humanitarianism and compassion in any of that?

??? ??? ???

This is all nonsense. It's just a good thing that widow's peaks are more likely than peak oil.

[333]

Peace,

Since Europe is roughly only half the size of the US, comprised of aprrox. only 22 independent "countries" under one "financial/ ecological" constitution, they enjoy the autonomy to develope however their "PEOPLE" see fit.

Plain and simple their amount of eggs and basket are considerably smaller, less prone to lack of over site and corruption imho. Perhaps this is why the more powerful and productive of the "nation/ states" refuse to ratify more power to the EU.

It is apples and oranges, not comparable imho in so many ways, culturally, economically, ethically, educationally, politically that one can not compare 50 States under one constitution/nation to 25 Nations under one financial/ geo-politcal arrangement.

No... the problem here in the US is the States / People must reduce their dependence on the National level and lead by example in their respective States, then perhaps we could compare Europe and the US.

333

[Buck]

"It is apples and oranges, not comparable imho in so many ways, culturally, economically, ethically, educationally, politically that one can not compare 50 States under one constitution/nation to 25 Nations under one financial/ geo-politcal arrangement. "

Then how is that America was less energy dependent until
the advent of the Interstate road system? America had rail
both light & passenger/heavy until that time. American
towns/cities had "centers" in them for commerce and
entertainment all within walking distance. All America
has now is thousands of small towns with dead main
streets and cities with hollowed out rotting cores.

Europe never left the sutainable way of life that is
humanistic in scale.

[oldnndway]

Europe evidently never got shopping malls and Wal-Mart.

[Stephen_B]

It's interesting that so-called free market people prefer roads over railroads, because actually, it's the *roads* in the US that have a longer history of being socialized/subsidized rather than the railroads.

Years ago, we had private railroads. *The big ones owned 1000s of miles of rail and hundreds of stations. *They paid taxes on all those rails, all those stations. *I used to have a copy of the Saturday Evening Post - I want to say Sept. 1957ish, that had an article: *"So You Don't Ride the Rails Anymore." *That story detailed how RR's like the NY Central had 600+ stations up for sale because they were being taxed and taxed on them while taxes were being levied on rr passenger tickets to help pay for the Interstate Highway System then being built. *It mentioned how the then privately owned Washington (DC) Union rr Station was paying over $4500 in property taxes every day, while Washington National Airport was being built on the other side of town with taxpayer dollars.

In the 1940s and 50s, when the railroad companies tried moving into bus and airline businesses, the federal government blocked them on anti-trust concerns. *So...our private transportation network, the one that arguably built the Industrial United States, was being taxed to death, to build its competition, while being blocked from buying into that competition.

Years later, when all the public roads built with tax payer money, on land removed from the tax rolls, finally killed the private rr *and trolley passenger business, we created *another* taxpayer supported entity, Amtrak to *&^% transportation even more.

Here in the Boston area, all the highways eventually put the NY, New Haven & Hartford and Boston & Maine railroads as well as all the trolley and street railways under water financially and they ceeded their commuter passenger business to a government transit agency, the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (MBTA) one of the biggest, most financially inefficient government entitites that has ever existed in these parts (and in MA, *that* says something.)

I think all the interstates should be sold off, fee simple to whomever wants them to run as toll roads. *Let them pay property taxes too on all that real estate just like the rr's used to have to do. *Let's do likewise to all the government run airports too..... Let the airlines buy them and run them as "union" airports (not union as in labor union, but union as in jointly owned by several airlines like the railroads used to do when they got together to build a large, shared train station.)

The day is quickly coming when declining gas and diesel sales will make the federal gas tax $$$ dry up all while construction and repair costs for roads continue to go through the roof. *(Construction equipment runs on diesel and pavement is rock glued together with heavy oil components. *Even concrete depends on large amounts of nat. gas to cook the limestone and diesel to mix, transport, and spread it.)

Our problem is that for going on 70 years now, government at all levels has been heavily subsidizing the public paved road for the private automobile as well as the public airport and it was all predicated on cheap, cheap oil.

Things are about to change in a big way. *Too bad too many of those private rr lines (at least the branch lines) with their very durable (read: needs no oil) metal rail roads and all their stations have been sold off. *Too bad too they weren't allowed to get into other transportation businesses. *

Now we are stuck with deteriorating roads that falling gas tax revenues can't pay for, and a lousy govt. run remains of a national passenger rail network that is sick. *(Though at least for freight rr's, though it looked bleak 30 years ago, things are still going okay.) *Just wait until the interstates start dropping bridges over all the culverts etc. and we can't pay to replace them. *The few trucks left plying the roads end up with broken wheels and axles from all the potholes. *Thank Goodness that we may still have the freight rr's like Burlington Northern, CSX, Norfolk Southern, etc. *Maybe when the airlines try to run their own airports (now taxed like everybody else's real estate) and fly planes on $7.00 a gallon jet fuel, the freight rr's will get back into the passenger business like they used to do so well.

We've been clueless on transport in this country for way too long and we're now getting what we deserve for messing with govt. subsized interstate roads in the middle and latter half of the 20th century by playing with socialized roads at the expense of efficient, privately run transportation networks (the railroads.) *

As for the comment that busses and rail using a lot of energy, the fact is that they use *far* less per passenger mile than cars do. *That the exhaust of a train or bus smells bad, well ya, but I dare one to smell the combined exhaust of the 40 or more cars that a loaded bus replaces or the 300 to 700 cars that a loaded commuter rail train replaces and then reconsider. *It's a silly thought, but so was the original comment.

Highways have never paid for themselves when you account for all the real estate taxes lost on them, the pollution, the countless hazardous waste accidents involving trucks (which GREATLY outnumber rail chemical spills, despite what some might think.) Just take away the road subsidies for a few years and see what survives, privately run interstates, or privately run railroads.

[Buck]

Yes, all VERY true. The electrical grid infrastructure is
in the same sorry state of repair and it too will collapse
due to neglect.

[Buck]

Urbanism at it best........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rwwxrWHBB8&NR=1

[TheUnboundOne]

Buck,

"People-oriented cities?...People rather than automobiles?...People...People who need people..." (Sorry, I thought I heard Barbara Streisand in the background.)

??? ::)

Who does this Dutch Urban Planner think are the ones who create, buy, sell, buy, and drive automobiles?

???

Let's not forget also that the Netherlands is, for all intents and purposes, a nation 65% below sea level. What will all of those bicyclists do if a natural disaster or more likely, the Islamofascist invaders, open or destroy the dikes and flood the nation?

At least drivers of automobiles would have some chance to spin out and get away when the first waters are seen. A driver could even ram any ne'er-do-wells who attempted to flood his country.

And does Bogota, Columbia's "fair, egalitarian, inclusive" bike culture provide any protection from Columbia's Narco-Terrorist drug gangs spawned by the global "War on Drugs?"

I know that if I had a Cali Cartel street-tough after me, that I would rather have the "isolation" and distance that a car provides...not to mention 2000+ pounds of flying bullet surrounding me. When it comes to thuggish behavior, some people are not "equal" and do not have "dignity."

[TheUnboundOne]

Dear Stephen B,

Howdy, Stephen B!

You wrote:

It's interesting that so-called free market people prefer roads over railroads, because actually, it's the *roads* in the US that have a longer history of being socialized/subsidized rather than the railroads.
*

Would it make a difference if I told you that I am also in favor of private roads and highways as well? *

;D

Real estate developers would have every reason in the world to want to own private roads, so that people could have access to homes, malls, and business space that the developers sold and rented.

There were private roads in the past and even nowadays, I had heard that there is a private strip that runs parallel to the Interstate in (I think) New Hampshire that people can take to avoid the crowds on the government Interstate.

[Stephen_B]

Yes, being for private roads would make a difference....glad to hear it. Really, the concept is very similar regardless of whether it is asphalt or steel rails.

And....on a related subject, I see some of the candidates want to pull the gas tax for the summer. Does that mean that we stick the road repair bills to the US government's general account now?

Fuel taxes aren't exactly a direct way to pay for roads....tolls or some kind of direct pay mechanism is better, but now we're not even going to have fuel taxes for a few months at the federal level at all. (though this "holiday" seems to be headed for certain defeat.)

[jott]

As it should. Think about it, the price of gas is set as a free market but not what we normally think of as supply and demand. For the most part no one every has gas they can’t sell, it is not a question of if it will sell it is how much will someone pay for it. All the investors know that people will buy gas at $3.50 a gal, if the gas tax is removed then gas will be $3.32 a gal. But all the investors know people will pay $3.50 so they will just buy it up so it is $3.50 again and will make even bigger profits.

So all the tax holiday would do is, mean you will pay the same price. Investors trading in gas will make even more money. There will be less money to fix the roads.

I would say the best thing to do is make more roads toll roads, the people using the roads should be the ones paying for them. Since we must except that oil is a limited resource that we need to get from outside our borders we should discourage its use. The best way to do that is to tax it. The gas tax of 18 cents is old so that 18 cents dose not buy as much as it did before it should be changed to a percentage or at lest raised.

I have just looked at prices to go from Richmond VA to NYC by car I would guess it to take about 26 gal gas for my car round trip about $100. Cost by plane is about online I can get tickets round trip for about $200 by train it cost about $320 round trip. Now if you look at all expenses air would probably be the most then car and train should be the cheapest. But it is not because of all the money we pay in taxes for air ports and roads that most don’t use. If everyone had to pay the full cost for everything we would see a lot more efficient transportation in this country.