TEOTWAWKI, people, and pets

[bugscufle]

It is always interesting to me to watch people's reaction when I bring produce to work. Inevitably, someone is seeing something in its fresh form for the first time in their life. I will never forget the time I brought a big bowl of figs. A fellow I worked with who was well into his thirties, when asked what was in the bowl, replied, "small pears."

It kind of makes me sad when I observe how they react to an item that has a blemish. They don't see all that is good, just the part that is bad. This fruit will be cast aside. I know they treat their clothes similarly. In fact, just about any thing they see as damaged has the same destiny. I wonder if people they encounter have the same fate.

People are about as affluent as they have ever been and most buy land for it's aesthetic or entertainment value. Our ancestors, without our affluence or welfare, strove to acquire land for its productive characteritics.

Pets are purchased for emotional and entertainment purposes. People spend awesome amounts of time and money trying to please pets. They spend sums on their pets health they would never consider contributing to extend the quality and quanity of human life. If you are old enough, you know that people coming out of the depression did not have animals that did not contribute to their keep. Pets were pets only so long as they made important economic contributions.

For instance, a cat was kept, only if she was a good mouser. She was given just enough food to keep her around mousing. I have seen farm women drown new-born litters to keep the population down.

A dog would need to be protective, of people, farm animals and stored food. The dog needed to be able to contribute to its own food supply, or at least the family's food supply. Any cat or dog that killed chickens or anything else didn't stay around. Most families, if they could afford all three, were one car, one cat, and one dog.

Kids, cats, dogs, chickens, hogs, and every other critter ate what was available. Not what they liked most. I don't remember my paternal grandparents having a dog. I've wondered what it was like having a dog in the depression and having it beg you for something to eat, and not having something to give it to eat. My maternal grandparents had dogs, but I think they thought store dog and cat food was a joke on silly rich people. Certainly, none of their dogs and cats ever had any. And they always seemed healthy.

Horses and mules had to work as hard as the people. They had little to do with leisure and entertainment. They ate a lot and their contribution to production had to exceed what they consumed.

There weren't any steer and wether pets, they got sold or eaten. Same for infertile females.

A stray dog or a stray cat was hungry. So it was shot. People knew the world they lived in had unending strays. It was their euthanasia. It had kindness in its violence.

Most people seem to think of catastrophic change much the same way they think of Christ's second coming--if it is going to happen at all, it is probably not going to happen in their life. I believe times will get bad because I majored in history. History is just the study of the reoccurence of catastrophies. Most often, when people don't they can or will occur.

If times get bad enough, some that survive may see that cats, dogs and horses are protein. Apaches enjoyed donkeys above all other meats.

I am kind of watching Mrs Lucy's Cajun Cooking Show on RFD-TV. Today she is cooking alligator. I was born on the edge of Cajun country. Although I have no Cajun ancestors, a couple of my aunts married Cajuns. Cajuns were the ultimate survivors to me. They could not only eat anything that wiggles or walks, they could usually make it taste pretty good. They enjoyed growing things they can make taste good. Fertilizer is a friend in any form. When it dawns on someone that the world around them is a buffet, there is a lot less stress. A person has a sense of control. The person can actually enjoy life in what others would consider dire circumstances. I don't think anyone enjoys life more than Cajuns. For Cajuns, life is a growing, gathering, hunting and fishing smorgasboard. They have sdjusted to the environment they are in.

People prosper in the artic. If anyone fails to make it whereever they are, I think it will be more likely to their trying to conform their environment to themselves, rather than conforming themselves to their environment.

[bookwormom]

yeah, know what you mean.
I just read an article that there are too many horses here in Kentucky, so many that for some it is a problem. supposedly some horses are starving as their owners can not afford to feed them all and the market is down. The problem, according to the article, is that horses are not allowed to be used in dogfood anymore and are not allowed to be shipped overseas where they would be butchered and eaten.

[wax]

bugs- People are about as affluent as they have ever been and most buy land for it's aesthetic or entertainment value. Our ancestors, without our affluence or welfare, strove to acquire land for its productive characteritics.

Wax- You have touched on one of the most important concepts that the readers of this forum (most users understand it but those who are just dropping by) need to grasp.

Rome didn't fall so much as collapse under it's own weight.
And it started with a very simple concept: People will always trade freedom for security, but once security is lost there is nothing left to trade.

We were attacked by Saudi Arabians on 9-11.
The following Monday the majority of Americans watched the Stock Market to see if it suffered.
We then invaded Afghanistan to be followed by Iraq.

Go back and read that again... and think about it for a moment.

In the first century (AD) a group of Jews attacked some Roman supply trains in the Middle East and retreated to a mountain fortress called Masada.
It was a simple little affront and would have been a minor irritant at best but Rome of that time was not something to mess with.

Masada seemed to be an easy place to defend.
Roman soldiers built a mountain along side it, moving more earth than all three great pyramids contain.
They didn't hurry, they didn't need to.
Because they day the Roman citizens heard that a little group of terrorists from Israel had caused some financial damage they smiled... shook their heads... and knew without a doubt that someone was about to learn a very serious lesson about Rome.

Of the 900 or so defenders of Masada... one adult woman and four children survived. Whether they killed themselves as the Jews claimed (which is an odd claim because suicide is outlawed by Jewish law) or were slaughtered by the soldiers is a moot point.
Nobody messed with Rome!

America has always liked to think of herself as progressive, but she is Roman at heart.
And sometimes... in fact a number of times...
Well, the Alamo was remembered but the fact that it was on Mexican land at the time of the battle was forgotten quickly.
We Roman hearted Americans didn't really care.
Someone was about to be taught a painful but important lesson about messing with America!

Rome was tough for a very long time.
But it became too affluent.
The grain that the bread was baked from in Rome's streets came from a very long way away.
People began to think that security was a financial issue.
So when the Vandals attacked the city they watched their own version of the Stock Market... and breathed a sigh of relief when it stumbled but did not collapse.

And then they decided to trade affluence with security.
Guards were doubled at the gates and in surrounding villages, but no one wanted to fight an expensive war with allies in trade.
"Just pay them off and try to make an example of someplace where we already have troops" was the decision.
So they attacked a few cities of the Goths and built a wall across England (look up Hadrian's wall) and continued to watch trade instead of allowing it to be interrupted.

Which brings us back to 9-11.
Saudi Arabia was an "ally" and attacking them would disrupt too much trade.
We could "do" Afghanistan and we already had a fight brewing with a guy named Saddam and best yet... we knew we could use him because he would not back down!
The Saudi's meanwhile put out a full page ad in US papers declaring their "love" for us!
Yes... destroying Mecca and Medina would cause trouble.
Who needs trouble anyway when there is money to be made?
So we traded affluence for security.
We pretended that extra guards in the airports would be some sort of solution... our Hadrian's Wall.

We should have payed attention to history.

Rome collapsed because the people came to realize that all of the affluence in the world is not worth security.
And now of course the Goths were angry.
No group materially threatened Rome but as each attack occured confidence in the missing security faltered.

There is a tipping point in which a lack security insures a collapse of the society which has allowed it.
For Rome it was pretty clear: They no longer protected outlying communities and those communities left Rome.
They stopped sending taxes because after all... what were the taxes for if not security.
And once commerce began to break down Rome was doomed.

And the real problem became apparent:
Rome could no longer sustain Romans.
No grain means no bread.
And the Romans could no longer go back to the good old days when they grew their own grain because... well... too much affluence insures such a thing is impossible.

There wasn't a thud, just a slow dripping sound as the water stopped flowing.

The problem with the average Roman was not that they did not understand where the water came from.
They couldn't fix the system as it started to fail.

America is filled with very skilled people today.
People who can write spreadsheets and type very quickly.
People who can mow their own lawn (with a big enough mower, we don't want to get crazy) and bring in their own cabin cruiser for the winter.
They know that the water which flows into their sink comes from the sanitation plant down the road.

They know how long Britney Spears was married and how long poor Miss Hilton had to spend in jail!

But they don't know how to get water to their house if it stops flowing.
They don't know what to type when the electricity which allows them to work fails.

We had a nasty tornado here in St Peter in 1998.
We lost over six hundred homes but we were fine.
Some of us know how to do things that others have never considered.
It didn't bother us at all to be without electricity for a week. Not one rape, not one murder, not one person going hungry or panicking in any way... in fact we had free beer and all the meat you could eat because it was perishable and thus should be used.

But I will never forget one man who came through from the cities far from the north.
For a moment I almost felt sorry for him... almost.

He pulled up to the gas station my wife and I were manning in order to insure that people had supplies thery needed for the coming days.
He had passed through a town that was devistated, roofs missing, and not a simgle light to be seen.

He hadn't noticed apparently because he was a busy executive in a nice new car and had better places to go after gassing up in this worthless backwater town.
So he pulled up next to the pump and shoved the nozzle into his tank, swiped his card and just stood there.

I didn't say anything I just thought that he would eventually look around and see that the power was off.
He didn't.
He just continued to swipe his card and stare at a blank screen.
Then he came to the door and yelled at my wife to turn the pumps on.
He didn't wait for an answer of course he just went back to stand next to the pump because that is what one does.

The situation went from slightly funny, to an irritation, to an angry confrontation.
He needed gas, and he didn't understand why we wouldn't let him pump it!
Finally he seemed to understand that for whatever reason his card would not work at the pump and he angrily threw it at us and declared, "just run the damn thing through by hand so I can get out of here! You do know how to use a charge card without the register don't you?"

He just didn't understand.
The electric pumps simply would not deliver the gas he required... no matter how important he was... no matter how much money he had... they would not work without electricity!

I of course could have easily filled his vehicle just as I had my own by opening the filler tank valve and using a hand suction pump but I decided I didn't really want to: there was a lesson to be learned after all!

Someday.... soon... a large portion of our population is going to realize a very important fact.
A doctorate in computer science is not very useful in a society that can no longer generate electricity to support a computer network to be connected to an Internet that no longer exists.

How to start a fire would however be very good to know, and more importantly how to use one without killing everyone in your household.
Knowledge is a selective thing.

[WileyCoyote]

Hear, hear, wax.
I currently live in a small town that is on the evacuation route for FL and GA during hurricane season. Close to the coast and in flood zones, we are often under evacuation orders too. However, by the time we get our evacuation orders, the folks from GA and FL have already brought our highways to a standstill, and there is no where, no way to go.
Gas stations are closed, as all of the previous folk have pumped the gas tanks dry, and emptied the shelves of every available food or drink. So what happens? The evacuees start attacking the stores, the store owners, and people in the driveways around them. They rip pumps and hoses from their moorings. They throw anything and everything though windows.
Then there are the ones who don't have any place to stay nor any money or fuel to get there. They pull up and simply stop and expect others to succor them, feed them (and their cats and dogs), provide them with housing, medication for their illnesses, even liquor and beer for their evenings. They not only request it, they demand it. Those who cannot provide for their dogs and cats when they stop simply turn them loose to become feral.

Speaking as someone in charge of Emergency Preparedness for my own neighbors, these newcomers are destructive and demanding. I met with the folks from LA last year and the year before. They were shell-shocked at the horrendous and selfish violence that occurred during and after Hurricane Katrina. The stories that never made it into the news were soul-ripping and would make you cry - or make goose bumps pop out on your arms.

I have watched the decline of civilization hasten ever more quickly year by year, like an out-of-control wheeled buggy shooting down an incline. And yet the fluffy local newspapers insist that there is nothing wrong, that we need to be kind to all of these poor people and give them whatever we can, even to the point of our going without, because they are simply suffering and we need to help them. They praise and laud people who give everything they have - even their own clothes and homes and the food off of their tables - and insult the ones who close their doors at last, tired of being robbed and attacked and insulted. This excusatory tone is self-destructive and self-annihilating, IMHO.

It will only get worse, as natural disasters and man-made disasters are praised as chances to "help people" instead of being told as stories to teach people to help themselves.

There is a "trailer neighborhood" in Baton Rouge LA that was started and built by FEMA to 'help' the victims of Katrina. One day a truck pulled up offering free Nike shoes to all. The people turned around and walked back into their houses, shutting the doors on the free sneakers. When asked why, they replied, "We don't like Nikes. Give us what we want." These people have no jobs, are on Welfare and Wic and government incomes, don't bother to look for work or to go back home or to rebuild, and demand the best because they deserve it - two years after Katrina. They not only expect but demand to be catered to - because they 'survived' a disaster, and "we OWE them".

We are witnessing the death throes of the Republic, folks.

[bookwormom]

interesting.
as for pets in not only a SHTF but a TEOTWAWKI situation, I am convinced they will soon be eaten. The attitude folks have towards pets in this day and age is only possible because of affluence.

[Naughty_Pines]

All of this is sad but true and it will only get worse.

"Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country." John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

[wax]

Naughty Pines - "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country." John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

Oh....
Why you...
How can you...

Ok... deep breaths... don't sieze up Troy...

I'm kidding in a way but you have chosen your name well even if you do claim to not be "naughty".

It is a thorn in my side that Kennedy was allowed to state such a thing and not be taken to task.

Had he left out the first sentance I could live with it, but of course the second implies the first!

I love this Republican Union and I have sworn to serve it and to preserve it by any means required.
I shall not stand alone until it falls and it will never stand alone as long as it exists and I draw breath.

But that is because I have asked what my country can do for me, and upon that examination declared my intent to offer my support and membership.

I am an American because I have chosen to be, a choice that every adult American should physically make upon reaching the age of consent and thus responsibility.

A man has no reason to belong to or serve a country if it can do nothing for him.

That is one of the problems we have today; few understand why they are Americans and even fewer can express it.

An attack on New York City is an attack on me personally precisely because an attack on me would bring New York City to my very door!
I choose to become us instead of me.
And in making that choice I both accept burden and hand burden to others.

It is an important concept.
Perhaps the most important.

Someday someone is going to make a very big mistake.
It might be China (I have a personal problem with them) but it might be anybody.
They will decide that some portion can be divided from the whole.

And they will learn a lesson that few have ever been witnessed to.
Knowing what my country does for me, compels me to do for my country!

Some day: The "Crack Whores" who we pass without notice will be troopers killing the enemy in the streets, "Pimps" will be generals making sacrifices, store owners will be soldiers and priests will be military commanders.

This is a fact because my country is different than most.
We have decided that the alternative is not an option.
We have asked what our country can do for us!
And we will do what we must for our country because of that knowledge... not the other way around!

[Terri]

Animals are the only love that money can buy.

Then again, most pets LOVE! to work! Ever seen a pointing dog stare down a possum playing possum? PRICELESS!

And, there has been such a PLAGUE of varmints since the old dog died!

Oh, yes.

I do not serve my country because of what it CAN do for me as much as what it HAS done for me. This is a country worth defending and maintaining. My attitude is not "defend the country because it will support me in my old age", it is "Support my country because it educated me and protected me, and it is a GREAT country"

Terri

[wax]

Good point Terri, I missed it in my post.

Loyalty is a strong motivating impulse and loyalty earned is loyalty deserved.

Far too few Americans realize just how great this nation and country is because they have not seen the alternative up close.

I took my twenty-one year old on a drive through Mexico to Belize this spring. He was told he could bring any friend over twenty-one but that once we passed the border he/she would fall or stand on his/her own.

The freind he brought is a good kid and they both started out with great zeal, driving and talking all the way from Southern Minnesota to the border of Mexico.
But they got quiet quickly and both refused to drive within an hour or two of crossing the border.

They were not used to men with machineguns waving them along. But I think it was the understanding that "poverty" in America is measured on an entirely different scale than in other places.

On the second night my son declared that he could never live in a country where he wasn't allowed to carry a gun to protect himself because all of the men walking around with very big guns didn't seem to care about his protection!
Laws are "funny" that way... you can spend decades in a Mexican prison if they find one or two 30-06 shells in your car but once you enter the policia could not care less whether you live or die.
Oh don't get me wrong... Mexico can be an extremely safe place... but I didn't take them through the tourist traps for a reason.

It is my personal opinion that every American should make the trip at the age of twenty-one... not a packaged "Spring-Break" but a simple drive to Belize.

They began to get excited about leaving Mexico as we approached the border but I knew that would change.
I have made the trip many times myself.

My son watched the Belize border guard smile at him and place two of his CDs into his pocket.
His freind lost a carton of cigarettes in the same way.
The man looked them right in the eye as he did it so that they would both understand what he was doing "for" them but they both stood in shock.
I of course had an American twenty folded under my ID as I handed it over and a big smile on my face as I always have when I cross.

We paid our insane fees for entrance and drove free and unrestricted into Belize in about 20 minutes and as soon as they started complaining I stopped at a waiting bench and asked the first "eco-tourist" I could how long they had been there so the kids would understand.
We arrived at the border at about 4:45pm.
The first two kids had been sitting there since noon, they shrugged shoulders and mentioned something about a "computer outage".
But two came up and complained that they had arrived the day before and been forced to pay to stay in some "hovel" for $40.00 American dollars each because their IDs had "come up fake".
I drove away knowing two facts:
One: That second pair was goind to spend another $40.00 to stay at the guards relatives house for another night.
Two: They would not learn a lesson concerning the situation they found themselves in.

They were not in America anymore.
Nothing they knew to be "the way things work" applied anymore.
And there was not a damn thing they could do about it... accept... perhaps learn and adjust, and come to understand why America is better.

Now I must admit that just as our drive to Belize I chose our "vacation" spot for a reason.

Instead of hitting the coast I drove into Belize City and presented them with a fine two bedroom rental.
I am not kidding, the rental was fine, owned by one of my best freinds (since he rolled me over and asked if I was dead on a beach near Placencia in 1990).

It had running water (you can't drink it of course but you can wash in it) and solid electricity. In fact one could take a hot shower if you were either very brave or slightly drunk.
You see they use an electric hot shower head there... it is sort of like standing in a filled bathtub while you listen to a radio in one hand and hold a running hair dryer in the other.

But I chose that particular location for another reason.

Belize is a very new country, but it was a British Commonwealth before gaining independence so it has some of the strongest gun laws in the world.
You can do ten years in the worst prison in Central America (and anyone here knows that is saying something!) for being caught with one shotgun shell!
You can... but of course you would get ten thousand dollars into the right hands at some point in time to avoid it.

Corruption and bribery is assured of course by third world status, but it is reinforced by law.
There is one law in Belize, how much cash do you have and how well can you "invest it".

So back to why I chose that location.
There are no "legal" guns in Belize. Military and police have access... and of course others do... but you get the point.
And Belize is a tiny country, and I mean tiny!
There are only three hundred thousand people in an area 180 miles long by 86 miles wide.
Just get rid of guns and there will be no violence right?

I know for a fact that Belize City is the most dangerous place in the world.

[wax]

So what is the "reason" for that danger?

And of course, back to why I chose that location.

Belize City is smaller than fifty thousand people.
Guns are completely outlawed.
A liberal "paradise" you would think... but think again.

In a city of less than 50,000 there is approximately one "murder" per day in Belize City.
Statisticians might look at that claim and tilt a head but it is true... and much more insane than it would appear to be!

You see most deaths are not reported (noticed) by the authorities. This is not America there is little paperwork involved when a policeman walks his beat.

Most murders are reported because they simply can not be ignored. The rest are simply swept under the carpet.

But how could there be murders if guns are banned one would ask?

There are two answers to that of course, the first has been exlained by a number on forums like this but the second is something entirely different.
Let's get the first one out of the way:

If guns are criminalized then only criminals have guns.
And in Belize the police are outgunned!
You can't have one unless you know what palms to grease, but the criminals form gangs which could tear (and has in recent years) that country apart if they needed to!
They don't care about the law... and fortunately for them the law has insured that if they pull out a firearm no victim can protect themselves.
But guns are not really the problem concerning murder in Belize! Well... not from the angle you would think.

Which brings us to the second problem concerning murder and general violence in Belize... and why I chose that location.

When I was a younger man we would sit there on the deck and play a drinking game.
Fistfight: Take a drink (Belekin beer, $.50 a bottle)
Pipe or bat used: Down beer
Machete present and seen: Take a drink
Machete used: Down beer
Loser is carried away: take a drink
Loser walks away: Shot of the best (Rum and beer are cheap, anything else is very expensive!)
Loser is left where he or she fell: Shot of rum ($7.00 per bottle)
Gun used: Finish everything you have inside... in the dark. This has happened three times in all of the years I have played the "game".

We could go on of course but it is a horrid game to be played by only young men who have not yet realized empathy in an adult way.
Yes it is a very violent street, and ultimately it is very sad.
Sitting there I have seen women and children treated like cattle... less than cattle in fact because cattle have a market value.

The point is that the local media use a verb called "chopping" just do a "google" for belize chopping incident and you will get the idea!
It means that someone was killed by another person using a machete or axe.
Go ahead and ban guns, you can't ban a machete.

Of course everyone carries one and of course because it is a personal weapon the sight of one does not hold the same fear for an adversary as a gun.
A person speaking in an angry tone with a machete on a hip might just be making a point... put a gun on his hip and the listener is forced to take notice!
And of course that is the point.

When Wild Bill Hickock "asked" you to step aside it was a fairly easy decision to make.
"Do I really need to push my rights in keeping my position on this one? Can I afford to pretend that he is not serious in his request?.
No... "Absolutely mister Hickock, you have a nice day!"

But you see Hickock is used by me to show an exception to the rule. Everyone was polite to nearly everyone in the days when six guns were worn in public.
A gun is not personal.
It is a tool which can be fired in any direction.
A machete is personal.

My son and his freind laughed at first while we played "the game"... and of course we drank heavily so one would expect that they would get more "entertained" but they soon grew quiet.
I suspect that even being drunk they did not sleep well that first night.

We talked at length in the coming days about why America is better in at least one way.

[wax]

So back to Terri and the original point made.

I don't know her at all but I suspect she was born between 1961 and 1981.
If I am right act shocked but if I am wrong simply assume I am insane... (or read up on what a "Nomad" is and why it is important to know) either way it is simply an observation based on an educated guess.

The fact is that America (n) ideals have never been preserved by those who hold them.
If I die defending this country it will be to insure the rights of my grandchildren not myself.

This is an important concept.
George Washington did not go to war with his king to make his life better.
He was one of the richest men in the new world.
He had nothing "personally" to gain in fact he was assured to lose a great deal of wealth and comfort whether his new nation won the war or not.

He would die if they failed and he would be not any better off if they won.

My own ancestor, a captain Stark, stood by a fence on "Breeds Hill" (later to be claimed in error to be "Bunker Hill") with the understanding that at the very best he could regain some portion of his life if he held a strong resolve.

He didn't fight for himself, he fought for me.

Those men, and many... many... others... have given me both a blessing and a terrible burden.
They have declared a a few scribbled lines on a piece of parchment have meaning!

Yes, my country has done a very great deal for me.
But my country is nothing more or less than resolve.
It shall either be preserved or it shall die.
It has been preserved by those who have gone before me and now it falls to me to determine that it is under threat again.
I would like to pretend that Habeus Corpus is no longer a requirement for my support of America.
I would like to pretend that the State is subject to the Federal government.
I would like to... but I can not.

Ask not what your country can do for you because it is no longer your country.

[CarolAnn]

Ah, TEOTWAWKI.

I'm all for it. At least, I choose not to live in fear of it.

I prefer to hope for: TSOTWAWWITB. (The Start Of The World As We Want It To Be.) Somebody's gotta start somewhere, and the folks planning their homesteads are the ones who will go for it.

[Swede]

I've been mulling over this thread for quite some time, not knowing exactly how to express my feelings toward the original topic.

I understand what the post is all about, and I also understand that difficult times call for difficult solutions.

Having said that, my dogs have demonstrated on numerous occasions a willingness to place my safety and the safety of my family ahead of their own. I doubt if I am the only one who can make this claim.

I respect, admire, and reward that kind of loyalty. Furthermore, I will honor that commitment by protecting them from all harm, such as is within my power to do.

If I understand the original post correctly, this makes me affluent and weak. Maybe so. But if anyone messes with my dogs they'll be dead before they hit the ground, and I'll eat them instead.

Very respectfully,

Swede

[WileyCoyote]

I understand how you feel, Swede. Our dogs are deathlessly loyal. One Sheltie stood between me and a ten-foot rattler one day, dancing deftly, daring it to strike, and not letting it anywhere near me. A bullet stopped the rattler... but it was a hard shoot, because I did not want to hit the Sheltie, and because she kept dancing in between us, trying to protect me.

I would rather use my dogs as early-warning systems, as protectors and defenders, as well as hunters. To me, killing them for food would defeat the purpose of owning them - dogs can smell out food far more efficiently than my eyes can spot it. But then again, many people own dogs that have no longer bred within them either the protection nor the hunting instinct, they are 'frou-frous' or 'yap-yaps'. But you never can be sure...

People make fun of me now for owning an Afghan 'frou-frou' dog. She is fair and fluffy and proud and obviously a show dog, even though she was an abandoned dog. However, I have seen her stalk, outrun, pounce, and kill with great pleasure and swift dispatch - and then not have a moment's regret or further thought. She is big enough, fast enough, and determined enough to take down a deer. And she ENJOYS it so. I would never kill her for meat unless I was so crippled that she was the only 'meat' I could access. Also, because she has no conscience whatsoever, I might have to kill her before she killed me! :o

However, when we first got chickens when the kids were small, they asked me what we were going to name them. "They all have the same name." "What's that?" "Dinner." Because eventually that is what they all would become. Some animals will eventually become food, just as some animals, because of their uses, will only become food in an extreme.

PS Swede, don't cook humans, the smell is terrible and the meat is greasy and fatty and nasty. Unlike animals in the wild, you don't know what that nasty human has been eating or drinking or gotten into. I reccommend lime.

[JAK]

"Ask not what the people in power can do for you. Ask what you can do for the people in power." John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

Well, that's what he really meant, but it doesn't sound so good.

[jim]

JAK

You got that right!!!

jim