Years from now . . how will the kids see it?

[CarolAnn]

There was an interview on the radio today, with the grown children of a man and woman who left New York City in the 1970's to go back to the land in Maine.

The girl said her dad saw himself as a pioneer, her mom saw herself as an earth mother, and she saw it as their own "little house on the prairie adventure." She was eight when they moved from the city.

Her brother was only four and had no romantic illusions, he just knew he wanted to go back "home" where things were familiar.

They told of the same experiences in very different voices! She remembered when her dad had an accident with the chainsaw and actually cut his chin, missing his throat by mere centimeters. The brother remembered being terrified that his daddy would die while mom wrung out bloody towels and trying to get th blood to stop flowing before they could make the trip to the hospital. They both remembered being snowed in, and having daddy labor all day to shovel the drive, only to have it blow back in before he even finished getting to the end. Or of being so cold trying to struggle through the snow that they didn't know if they'd make it back to the house.

She's written a book about it, but as an adult, he lives back in New York, only a few blocks from where they lived before the move. He's a confirmed city boy. She's a true country girl.

If you've made your move to the country, and if you have kids, how do you think they will tell the story when they are grown? A great adventure? A normal run of the mill life, or something else?

Better yet, if you're one of the kids of the 70's back to the land movement, how do you view it?

[wax]

CarolAnn- If you're one of the kids of the 70's back to the land movement, how do you view it?

Wax- You ask some incredibly great questions! It amazes me that more do not ask them.
Anyone who has read "My Story So Far" knows that my childhood was not exactly a communal love fest, but I was exposed to elements within that community a great deal.
It is possible that the survivalist elements skewed my perception of the "hippie" movement but there is also the problem of childhood perception verses reality.

I came away from the seventies with a very negative impression of the "back to the land" movement.
I saw a number of communes which were perverted for other uses by leadership who took advantage of followers.
I saw abuse and I saw corruption.
But I also saw a certain futility in the leaders who had a genuine concern and commitment to the cause the expounded.

The Pentagon didn't leave the ground.
The Viet nam war was not stopped by love for humanity.
"Billy Jack" should have never allowed himself to be handcuffed at the end of that movie!

You see... some of the lessons that adults thought they were teaching us were not being received in the expected way, but I will post that as a different thread.

CarolAnn- how do you think they (my kids) will tell the story when they are grown? A great adventure? A normal run of the mill life, or something else?

Wax- I have already encountered this answer in some ways.
My oldest has spoken to me about his perceptions of his childhood verses the childhoods of his freinds.

I do not live as the majority of society does... the differences can be subtle but they are easily seen.

My children have vastly more freedom than peers but they are held to much higher expectations and accountability.

My son could drink alcohol at home long before his peers even considered asking; but he was held responsible for his actions to a much greater degree than they were.
While his freinds died in car accidents after sneeking out to drink he had no problem calling for a ride home.

While his peers received a grade for passing a standardized test on Ancient Greece my son was expected to pass beyond any knowledge he could obtain from public instruction.
While his freinds could leave the stress of learning more about Alexander the Great than society judged was important to know my son was required to not only understand that he won the battles of Granicus and Issus but exactly how and why he won them.

He had a much greater burden concerning education than his peers.

I am satisfied that he understands his childhood within the context of the father I am; but that includes an understanding of not only my strengths but my weaknesses in the role I have.

It is interesting to view him in the young adult role he now holds.

I regret that he is too hard on his peers and too removed at his young age to foster off-hand relationships with young women.
His standards are too high, and there is a perceived loneliness there because of it.

[CarolAnn]

Wax - I've read every bit of what you've written about your life, and waited eagerly for the next bit. That may be what stirred my question. That, and the man from Florida that was talking about how his wife doesn't share his values
. . . and the many replies of people in the same situation.

How would she view their life together if he forces her to follow into a lifestyle she doesn't want or understand? And how will their kids view it (if they have any kids) ?

I'm sure your brothers, if they could be asked, would answer very differently about their lives at home than you did.

It's what we take into the situation: the mind set, the heart, the courage, and the willingness to use all of our brains and strength to learn and understand.

So many folks seem to live their life stories on autopilot and never give consideration to the whats and whys, that once they are at the end of the book, it will be like it was never written at all.

Two families could live side by side in similar wooden houses, with no plumbing, no electricity, and none of the things that most Americans take for granted. One family will be in the deepest despair, lacking ambition or hope, and the other family will be there because they chose to, enjoying every moment, relishing the challenges they have chosen, and learning new things every day.

Wax, your son's sights aren't set too high. He may have to look longer to find a good mate . . .but at least he isn't going to be lured by an empty package! ;)

[seekeroftruth]

Im the man from florida whos wife doesnt share my values.

I can only speak for myself, but, I grew up loving the outdoors, and everything about it. I want that same thing for my kids. If how they are currently is any indication, they will love living a simpler lifestyle.

Growing up, myself and my friends, knew about tools. We may not all have been mechanics or carpenters, but, if I asked them to hand me a wrench or needle nose pliers. I knew I was going to be given the proper tool. When I joined the military so many years ago. It came as a huge culture shock how many men didnt know one end of a screw driver from the other. Thats ashame.

Noone should have to rely on anyone for anything. Im not saying that we should all be able to do everything. But there was a time when people did. Or at least had marketable skills to use for barter. i.e. fix my wagon I'll give you preserves and bread, or I'll shoe your horse. whatever.

My kids will learn the value of hard work and what it means. They will know which tool is which in a tool box. and they will appreciate the fact that they have those skills even more if the day should ever come when the world isnt the same as we know it today.

I dont lose sleep over that. If it never happens thats great. But im not so naive to think that it cant ever happen, and I as a father take my duty to teach my kids seriously.

Morals, work ethics, responsiblity, being self sufficient. Those were things I learned from my parents. Those are the things im going to teach my kids. What they do with it is up to them.

B

[CarolAnn]

SeekerofTruth and Wax,

I am awed by both of you guys. How many people have kids and don't even give a thought to what they want them to learn, and why.

Seeker, you bring up an interesting idea, too. I was raised in a family that could do about anything. Dad built our house and was a mechanic. Mom grew our food, milked our cow and made our clothes. Although they did these things from necessity in taking care of a big family, many of my friends were in a similar financial situation, but their parents didn't (or couldn't) do as much.

My ex-husband grew up in the country, but he might have been a pampered city kid for all he was taught by his parents. His industrious cousin (who eventually inherited the family farm) was the one who did the farm work while he sat on his butt and watched TV inside. I think what he liked about the idea of going back to the land in Arkansas was his image of the porch-sitting do-nothing with a busy wife like Pa & Ma Kettle!

I grew up not even realizing there were men that couldn't do everything (or anything) for themselves! I got a rude awakening when I found myself working to support my husband! Maybe it's lucky we couldn't have kids, as we were sure to tangle over how they were raised.

There is wisdom in the verse that says, "Be not unevenly yoked!"

[seekeroftruth]

Carol,

You mentioned your Mom and how she worked and yourself working to support your hubby.

My wife works. *Shes a teacher. *But she works because she doesnt want to do anything for herself. *Its more out of a need to have luxury things than any true ethic in her. *The sad part is. *She will miss out on alot of bonding with our daughter because if anyone is going to teach her how to cook and sew. *Its me. *Im the one does those things for our household as well. *LOL. *(and yes ill be teaching my son also.) im a firm believer in not letting someone do for you what you should be able to do for yourself.

Its funny. *But my line of work I find my self in situations where anyone else would want or need 2 or 3 guys to help them out. *I figure out ways of doing it myself, on the occasions where i have help. *I find them to be more of a hurt than a help. LOL. *

Anyway. *The kids I know, and I know alot of them, who are happiest are the ones spending times out doors. *Especially if they have a parent there with them teaching them and talking to them.

I even have a few freinds who are single moms. *And i let them know in no uncertain terms that they are welcome to come hang out with us whenever they want. *The only person who can teach a boy to be a man is a Man. *Sadly too many "men" dont know what that means anymore. *And it relfects in our prisons, and our welfare records, etc etc etc. *not wanting to get political.

I guess my point is. *I think kids need to learn these things. *Whether they choose this lifestyle when they are old enough to make their own decisions is up to them. *But I will have to answer to God one day for how my kids turn out. *And I want to be able to hold my head up and say. *I taught them.

One addendum. One thing my mom always says, and I take it to heart with my kids, she says. "I'll take the blame for whats wrong with my kids, but I'll darn sure take the credit for whats right with them." Im the youngest of 7 by the way.

B

[TNDadx4]

All,

Very well said! I grew up in one of those homes where my father never really taught me much. He wasn't too handy, but what he did know (autobody repair), he reluctantly taught me.

After I got married, I resolved that I would be the best dad possible to my children. I would invest time with them and involve them with everything I do, even if it's just going to the store. I was surprised how much one can learn from listening to one of your kids on a trip to the store.

I am purposefull with my intention in being a dad. I want to impart everything I can to my kids.

I grew up not knowing how to throw a football. Believe it or not, it was something that my father never did with me. I learned how and then taught my kids. Ditto with gardening, home repair, etc.

Investing in this generation is one of the best things that we can do to ensure that we leave a lasting legacy.

[bookwormom]

great posts, really can relate to a lot of it.
My kids grew up that way and saw how others lived peripheral.
Their friends loved spending time at our place and sleep over.
My kids are long grown and gone, they have told me how much they appreciated how they lived as kids. They like coming home to us and delve right in. to make a living they had to go where the job was, they are homesick and our daughter calls every day and wants to know every detail of what goes on.

quote:
My children have vastly more freedom than peers but they are held to much higher expectations and accountability.

exactly.

[wax]

I agree with everything said; it is nice to know that I am not alone in my thinking of child rearing and the responsibility parents have.

CarolAnn- How would she view their life together if he forces her to follow into a lifestyle she doesn't want or understand? And how will their kids view it (if they have any kids) ?

Wax- We are actually speaking of two very seperate issues here: Spousal perception and offspring.

The children perspective is the easiest to handle in my view.
It is a universal truth that childhood involves seeking something "better".
Prince William spent much of his childhood wishing he could just go outside and play... while others spent a childhood wishing they could be a rich prince.
It is universal and it is generational, Mark Twain wrote often of childhood morose and agony precisely because it is identifiable to ever adult reader.

Huck Finn didn't know how lucky he was... and the adult reader is left with a confusing choice because while we envy his freedom many would rush to aid him in real life without even considering an alternative.
We would do that because we are adults and seeing a grubby kid all alone without shoes causes empathy whether it is required or not.

I had to chuckle when TNDad declared his intention to "be the best dad possible" because all young fathers make this declaration... we are not going to make the same mistakes made with us damn it!
And the fact is that by and large we collectively do pretty well. But then we always have.

Alexander the Great's father declared to himself that he would do the best he could. Historians often find fault in him... yet there is a dychotomy there in that the result can not be argued with much! Like him or not Alexander was called "the Great" for a reason and he carried his father with him in that glory.

"Abuse" is a hard thing to define. There is no doubt that far too many children in this world suffer from it.
But a child is a piece of clay, and in the end their wants are less important.
The son of a Blacksmith might not enjoy learning that trade... but the Blacksmith has a right (and some might argue duty) to teach it.

A spouse of course is a very different relationship.

[wax]

A number of my associates (men) have decried the fact that there are no "good" women left in the world.

You know... a woman who wil pick up and leave whenever their husband has a wild scheme.
A woman who pulls the ox-cart through the rain and doesn't complain if the sod roof leaks a bit.
A woman who might ask questions but only in a desire to serve her husband better and always ends with, "you are right dear."

What they don't realize of course is that "that" woman has never existed... never.
They get confused by such historical examples as the homesteaders of the 1800's because historians have a hard time describing relationships that are not put down on paper, so they simply use a template drawnm from images.

Life in the 1800's was tough folks, there is no doubt about it. And the women of that time were tough both physically and mentally... but then they had to be.
The odds of a child living to see five were slim.
The labor involved in homesteading was just as tough then as it is now, tougher in many ways of course (a number of men and women would have loved to have a tractor back then!)

But those associates of mine forget that the relationships involved were just as convoluted and confusing then as they are now.
Women have always guided men... always.
And men forget that fact because up until the last century or so women have usually allowed men to think they were making the decisions.
I have been moved while reading simple letters written by women during various times because if one understands them in context the words written take on a much different meaning.
My associates might not realize it, but they do not want to return to the days of the homesteader (1800's).
They want a magical dream of that time, a romantic version.

So where does that leave us today?

Well... the same place men and women have always been left, searching for a spouse who shares a set of desires.

Martha Washington did not marry a young man in the hopes of being alone most of her adult life. And it is clear that George considered his sacrifice to this young nation a great burden.
That relationship was so very poignant because the burden was shared, but if you think for a moment that Martha did not "bitch" once in awhile then you are fooling yourself (and haven't bothered to read any of her letters).
Back then... women did not come out and state an opinion, but that was simply a sign of the times and a function of culture.

When Martha states in one of her letters that "the well appears to be going dry" you can bet that George's shoulders sank and he wished for a wife who wasn't so forceful and outspoken.
Martha might as well have written, "Get your ass home now and fulfill your duties to me!" because that is what she meant.

You can not force a spouse to attend "Star Trek" conventions if she doesn't like "Star Trek".
It simply won't work for long.
You can't force her to move to Alaska if she doesn't like snow, your are not going to be happy in Florida if she doesn't like heat... and in my case... I will remain bound to Southern Minnesota because my wife is close to her family and wouldn't budge from this location if I held a gun to her!

So... they key is to know each other before oaths are taken.
Then mold your desires to fit in the confines of the relationship formed.

[CarolAnn]

Wax - Washington's letters! I came across one in an old book on etiquette for men, and Martha must have been a whiner because that guy really reamed her out! I was shocked to realize our first president was a real person. (Of course, he told her off very politely, but just the same . . . :o ) I would have paid more attention in school if we'd have had more of the real stuff and less dry dusty text of historians.

But back to the subject - I have to admit honestly here, my parents were not the sort of folks that gave any thought to how or why they were raising their kids. Kids just happened and they dealt with them, and not always the best way. I don't think my mom actually liked kids very much at all, and my dad was more interested in drinking and chasing around than presenting a good male image for his children. They worked hard because that's what most people were taught to do back then, but there wasn't a lot of conscious choices made or deep thinking involved.

We learned how not to live our lives from them as much as we learned how to. I suspect a lot of people experienced the same thing.

What's interesting about the survival or back to the land movement now is that people are making a deliberate and not easy choice. They are trying to learn ways that might not be natural to them or easy to get. They're also courageous to go against what "normal" society says they should do: work at a job, have bills up the wazoo, buy their kids everything they whine for, and try to keep up with the neighbors.

Their children will be viewed as "different" by others. Some will appreciate it - some won't!