Monkey Wrenching the Draft

[frost_bite]

Common sense says, it's only a matter of time before the Draft will be re-instated to offset the wear and tear on the all volunteer force.

For those oppose to these rash of meat grinders being cranked out by this Administration, here's a way to save the lives of your sons and daughters should this happen. You need to start now by building a long, and continuous medical history paper trail by working with a physician that shares your anti-war views.

The goal....fabricating the documentation and treatment for any number of medical conditions that would render a person 4F. As an example .....asthma, severe sleep apnea, Parkinson, life threathing allergies to peanuts, glaucoma, COPD, Addisons, retina diseases, or any heart related disease would serve well.....

[IrishDoc]

Wow... what a proud patriotic American you are.......... Just remember... them ladies and gentleman now in the service are the ones who give you the freedom to act the way you encourage others to do.........

[frost_bite]

Wow... what a proud patriotic American you are.......... Just remember... them ladies and gentleman now in the service are the ones who give you the freedom to act the way you encourage others to do.........




Man has no right to kill his brother. It is no excuse that he does so in uniform: he only adds the infamy of servitude to the crime of murder.

~Percy Bysshe Shelley

[nancy1340]

Irish, I wonder if he spend some time in Canada in the 60's. ::)

[IrishDoc]

Dont get me wrong.. my views have changed and i can no longer support this current conflict... but to advocate behavior such as this is wrong... plain and simple.

[candy]

Frost bite,

I understand servitude, to a war effort you do not believe in would be wrong.

However, the honorable thing to do , would be flat out to refuse to go. Tell the truth. I do not believe in this and I am not about to kill people for something I do not believe in.

They may lock you up awhile, but not forever, and you'd be really making a stand. Willing to put actions behind words .

[Shadow]

Hard subject, served my country in several places and times, yes took some lives, sometimes not sure why, pretty sure the guys that were trying to kill me probably were not sure why they were there either. Lost a lot of friends lost a lot of me, would I do it again yeah probably would. If you are called on and you don't you are a lot less than I wish to be around. I have met people that served time in prison so because they felt they should not have to serve. I had to do their job, tonight I will try to send them and all the others that are of that kind some of my nightmares and you mabey can see some of the terror that all will see if some one does not do the job. I feel sorry for the cowards as they will never know life. Just my opinion but I fought for it and they did not.

[Txanne]

*Frost bite,

*I understand servitude, to a war effort you do not believe in would be wrong.

*However, the honorable thing to do , would be flat out to refuse to go. Tell the truth. I do not believe in this and I am not about to kill people for something I do not believe in.

*They may lock you up awhile, but not forever, and you'd be really making a stand. Willing to put actions behind words .


Yes they can lock you up for the rest of your life---as a traitor.

The draft is unConstitutional---It has nothing to do with what you believe IE: which war etc etc.
The draft *is/was a form of slavery---forcing Americans to do things againest their freedoms of choice.

But I would ask you--where you live and what you do believe in?

BTW--if you wont fight for this country---Please exit stage left---

I understand JW---wont fight--But they enjoy the freedoms at the exxpense of others blood!!


Aint it a crazy world!!


annie

[CarolAnn]

Since I am a woman, and an oldish one at that, I can't really say what's right, since it would never apply to me. I honestly don't know what I'd do if I was a young male that it DID apply to.

I DO know that I don't approve of the wealthy, powerful men that are "patriotic" enough to send other people's boys into war, but find all sorts of loopholes to protect their own. If it was evenly applied it would be different, but as it stands, the poor will always be the cannon fodder and the wealthy will be the officers who load the cannons of war or avoid it all together inside their safety net of wealth and power.

I lost a lot of friends in the Vietnam war - some died there, some came back forever broken in body and spirit, and a couple went to Canada and never came back.

Tens of thousands of young people in this generation joined the National Guard because it was the only way they could finance their college education later. But as it turned out, that tuition cost them an arm and a leg.

If I can't stand in his boots, I'm not going to judge; it's a hard choice any way you look at it.

[jim]

The original post reeks of cowardace in my view. I'm not for a draft either, as we can still get plenty of volunteers if really needed. If one is against a draft per se, and not just against defending their country then I find no fault with them.

Just because some foreign SOB is breathing, does not make him my brother. If he needs killing (as terrorists do) then it should be done, Jesus and St. John said there is nothing wrong with a justifiable killing.

Shadow got it right.

jim

[Txanne]

The original post reeks of cowardace in my view. I'm not for a draft either, as we can still get plenty of volunteers if really needed. If one is against a draft per se, and not just against defending their country then I find no fault with them.

Just because some foreign SOB is breathing, does not make him my brother. If he needs killing (as terrorists do) then it should be done, Jesus and St. John said there is nothing wrong with a justifiable killing.

Shadow got it right.

jim

Reeks of cowardice--I totally agree.

Carol Ann----I believe it does apply to you and I---as you said--we cant fight--but we can throw our 2cts worth in.

The Nam War wasnt a war of choice for our people---Our citizens were forced to fight.

My cousin James L Cherry--was on his third tour when he was killed in Veit Nam.
He believed
for a reason---I will not dishonor him by being a coward.

We older ones have been born into wars---myself WW2

I am againest the draft and cowardice.

Carol--Sometimes I feel so helpless as the younger generations take over our defence--all I can do is watch for the Constitutional abuse.

The draft is illegal and slavery.

annie

[333]

Peace,

Coward:
1 a person who lacks courage, esp,one who is shamefully afraid.

Cowardly :
1 lack of courage
,synonyms,
timid,frightened,afraid,fearful,shy,backward,appre hensive,nervous,
anxious, dismayed, fainthearted, panicky, scared, craven, mean spirited weak, soft, chicken-,yellow-, lily- livered, cringing ,trembling. etc etc

Conscription:

to enroll for compulsory service in the armed forces; draft.

"there are no atheists in fox holes, only cowards"-unknown

Perhaps they could solve this one with the 20 something million honest hard working mexican -wanna bee Americans.

How many in "your" family have to lay the lives on the altar of freedom, 1 ,2 , 1 per generation, 1 per conflict, ? When will equal rights cover the draft?

Peace

[candy]

Frost bite,

There is never cowardice in standing up for what you with a studied mind and faith have decided is the right thing to do.

Your original post and I say this with respect to you as a person, was at best dishonest. I don't assume it had anything to do with cowardice. I think you mean to help others by the original post.

But to really help others, shouldn't you be standing as a group, and making it known you refuse to fight wars that are all about oil, greed, and power for a cause you do not believe in.

You've got groups like Gold Star Families against the war and many other veterans groups who are speaking out against this war that is obviously all about money. Start there, join one. Branch off to your own group , that makes it clear, we won't run, we will not hide, we will stand and fight against wars that we consider wrong.

Even will throw a name at you.

Young Americans Who Refuse To Fight For Oil , Greed or Power. We'd fight to defend our country, not for money!
Just a thought, get some people your age together and fight this , not try to get out of it in dishonest ways. You'll never regret that stand. But if you sneak around it, I guarantee you will be sorry you handled it that way in your old age. If the Lord Tarries

[candy]

Jim

Could you provide scripture please for where Jesus or St John ever gave a seal of approval to killing or wars for the followers of Christ?

Chapter and verse would be helpful.

[GREEN_ALIEN]

To the original poster finger f777 or dribble d888, whatever your worthless handle is, you are a coward and worse a treasonous traitor. You and those of your smelly ilk do not deserve to share this country with veterans such as myself and others on this board. To bad people with your limited capacity are allowed to vote in this fine country.

I proudly volunteered to stand on those little yellow footprints and for my efforts was perforated and I indeed, on occasion, had to perforate others.

Shadow - with you all the way brother.

Annie - I am shocked yet not surprised with your post. You are old enough to know for a fact that the draft is the only reason you are typing this in English instead of German...

The draft is a necessary tool to fill the ranks, even during popular wars such as WWII.

If there were a way to again join my brothers I would take it in an instant.

Ted
USMC
Semper Fi.

[frost_bite]

*Frost bite,

*There is never cowardice in standing up for what you with a studied mind and faith have decided is the right thing to do.

*Your original post and I say this with respect to you as a person, was at best dishonest. *I don't assume it had anything to do with cowardice. *I think you mean to help others *by the original post.

*But to really help others, shouldn't you be standing as a group, and making it known you refuse to fight wars that are all about oil, greed, and power for a cause you do not believe in.

You've got groups like Gold Star Families against the war and many other veterans groups who are speaking out against this war that is obviously all about money. *Start there, join one. Branch off to your own group , that makes it clear, we won't run, we will not hide, we will stand and fight against wars that we consider wrong.

*Even will trow a name at you.

*Young Americans Who Refuse To Fight For Oil , Greed or Power. * Just a thought, get some people your age together and fight this , not try to get out of it in dishonest ways. * You'll never regret that stand. But if you sneak around it, I guarantee you will be sorry you handled it that way in your old age. If the Lord Tarries


I'm a Buddhist, and see no reason to join any additional groups. All I have to do, is cause one person to see a different reality; consider it as creating an avalanche one snowflake at a time. When people begin to hear their moral inner voice, they'll find and work within a group that will will fit their new awakening philosophy without being led around by the nose. The concept of guiding a person toward Satori (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori) is often difficult for the Occidental mind to grasp.

[nancy1340]

[quote author=frost_bite link=board=gen-general;num=1173916184;start=0#15 date=03/15/07 at 06:35:40]


I'm a Buddhist, quote]

SPEW ALERT!!! LOL LOL
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Your kidding.........right? ??? ??? ???

::)

I have known several Buddhist and none have ever talked or acted the way you do. The ones I have known were honest, hard working, kind, generous people. Polar opposite of the largest percentage of your post indicate you are.

[333]

Peace,

Although i am not the original poster on this topic, your inference in the use of "worthless" handles ,has me wonder if you were addressing me?

To the original poster finger f777 or dribble d888, whatever your worthless handle is, you are a coward and worse a treasonous traitor. You and those of your smelly ilk do not deserve to share this country with veterans such as myself and others on this board. To bad people with your limited capacity are allowed to vote in this fine country.

Peace

[frost_bite]

I'm a Buddhist, quote]

SPEW ALERT!!! LOL LOL
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Your kidding.........right? *??? ??? ???

::)

I have known several Buddhist and none have ever talked or acted the way you do. The ones I have known were honest, hard working, kind, generous people. *Polar opposite of the largest percentage of your post indicate you are.

Nope...still a lot of rough edges. btw, ask the Green Alien if he knows what the Quigley is?
When I can rid myself of that brain washing from that period of my life, then I'll start being the "proper Buddhist"...

[Txanne]

Ga---kiss my grits!! ;D

My Dad wasnt drafted--He signed up!!
He was 19 and I was born 5 years later!!
A couple of months before Pearl Harbor!!

And dont be shocked---I live by the Constitution.

Draft is againest the Constitution---you'll are missing it!1

[Mac_Muz]

What draft? Did someone leave a door open?
lotto #36

[Txanne]

You monkey wrench the Draft--by using the Constitution.

The only time i believe the USA should institute the draft--would be if another country attacked us--with full military force.

Then I believe it would be a mute point--as the patriots of this country would line up to fight the enemy. IMO

annie

annie

[Rafael]

LMAO, the draft is unconstitutional. That's the funniest thing I've ever heard.
How about a thread about all the things the govt does that are unconstitutional? It would go on for at least 10,000 posts
I'll start, everyone please add one thing to the list:
1. Rent Control.

[Txanne]

LMAO--at the draft being unconstitutional?

You get to be chosen first then!![[and you have no say remember when its done to you.]] You have to go where you dont want to go--for people you could careless about for reasons that are lost on you!!

how ya like that huh?

Volunteering means you except the probabilty you will be sent into hostile areas---You MAKE a choose to serve---!! Period!!


Somedays you cant open a window for fresh air around here!

annie

annie

[333]

LMAO, the draft is unconstitutional. That's the funniest thing I've ever heard.
How about a thread about all the things the govt does that are unconstitutional? It would go on for at least 10,000 posts
I'll start, everyone please add one thing to the list:

1. Rent Control.

Peace,

rhetorical, O.K.

2 ATF ,DEA, IRS auctions of seized property, criminal or not , the seizure of private property, and redistribution with out just compensation.

"For erecting a multitude of "offices" and sending hither swarms of "officer's" to harass our people and eat out their substance."

Peace

[alma]

There are several groups in this country who will not take up arms.

They believe that it is best to live a principled life that they believe in with all their heart, and dream their own dreams, than to die in someone else's nightmare.

The jehovah Witnesses, the mennonites, the church of the breathern, the amish, the conscientious objectors and many others.

--and jesus did not tell anyone to fight and kill.

He said, the weapons of OUR warfare are NOT carnal, but mighty to the pulling down of strong holds.

Wisdom is better than ANY weapons of war.

If any man lack wisdom let him ask of god who giveth to ALL men liberally and upbraideth not, etc.

--and with all your wisdom, get understanding.

The sword of the spirit, is the word of god, etc.

MY kingdom is NOT of this world. If MY kingdom were of this world, then would MY soldiers fight, but MY kingdom is NOT of this world.

He gave a new dispensation in the new testament.

Thou shalt not kill.

"Love fulfills the law. Herein is LOVE, NOT that you loved ME but that I loved YOU".

He didnt come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.

The letter of the law killeth. The spirit of the law
quickeneth.

I don't know how anyone can call themselves christian, and go to any man's war.

Let god be true and every man a liar.

How can they destroy all that god has made for any man, or any group of men, for any country, for any reason that is not a very real, and very present, and a very, very clear danger to themselves.

They act like the devil that they, supposedly, HATE, and lend themselves to the destruction of all that the creator that they, supposedly, LOVE, has clearly made.

The work of a destroyer would be to recruit people to destroy for him/her/it, it seems to me.

There is no conscription here. There is no draft.
In this case, it is an all volunteer army that the devil,
so-called, would need, and he/she/it surely knows how to deceive in any number of ways to get all the "volunteers" needed to get the job done.

I'm for standing up and spitting in his eye.
I would not lie. That is for the likes of him to do. love, alma

[Rafael]

LMAO--at the draft being unconstitutional?

You get to be chosen first then!![[and you have no say remember when its done to you.]] You have to go where you dont want to go--for people you could careless about for reasons that are lost on you!!

how ya like that huh?

Volunteering means you except the probabilty you will be sent into hostile areas---You MAKE a choose to serve---!! Period!!



Annie,
My point is that the govt does tens of thousands of things that are unconstitutional, the draft was just one of them, which btw is no longer in existence.

THis is not directed at you Annie, but it is interesting how the left screams unconstitutional when talk of a draft comes up, but they love their list of unconstitutional items they want done by the govt, such as govt paid healthcare...

[Txanne]

Annie,
My point is that the govt does tens of thousands of things that are unconstitutional, the draft was just one of them, which btw is no longer in existence.

THis is not directed at you Annie, but it is interesting how the left screams unconstitutional when talk of a draft comes up, but they love their list of unconstitutional items they want done by the govt, such as govt paid healthcare...


BTW---I know the draft doesnt exisist!! DUH!!

It was directed at me---you called me by name--dear.

10,000 other constitutional things--yes there are---But we are on the draft issue right now----


You work on about 9,999 of them ok?


BTW---slick----Texas was one of the states with the most draftees---because [[we were ]] bigger--i guess they [[gooberment ]]felt we could do with out our loveones easier since we had more of em.

I wonder if anyone can tell which state had the LEST drafted members?

Now -------I remember very few days of peace since I was born.

always some little government trying to prevent its citizens freedom and rights. or just plain killing them--

I dont think we should run to every dam place that has trouble--and SAVE them at the cost of our soldiers.

BUT if we do---Congress and the President---The it should be on a free chose decision---No One should be FORCED TO DIE!!

AND YOU SEE I STILL WONDER WHY ALL MALES AT THE AGE 18 should have to register? Whats up with that?

File descrimanation suits againest the gooberment---If congress wants to go to WaR --chose one to go with the troops---a congress critter that is----or a senator!!
Kinda of an oversite person?


Do away with the RULES of Engagement Also!!

If you send me to war---give me the right to shoot first--i'll talk to ya later---crap is for the birds.

annie

[Rafael]

BTW---I know the draft doesnt exisist!! DUH!!

It was directed at me---you called me by name--dear.

10,000 other constitutional things--yes there are---But we are on the draft issue right now----


You work on about 9,999 of them ok?


BTW---slick----Texas was one of the states with the most draftees---because [[we were ]] bigger--i guess they [[gooberment ]]felt we could do with out our loveones easier since we had more of em.

I wonder if anyone can tell which state had the LEST drafted members?

Now -------I remember very few days of peace since I was born.

always some little government trying to prevent its citizens freedom and rights. or just plain killing them--

I dont think we should run to every dam place that has trouble--and SAVE them at the cost of our soldiers.

BUT if we do---Congress and the President---The it should be on a free chose decision---No One should be FORCED TO DIE!!

AND YOU SEE I STILL WONDER WHY ALL MALES AT THE AGE 18 should have to register? Whats up with that?

File descrimanation suits againest the gooberment---If congress wants to go to WaR --chose one to go with the troops---a congress critter that is----or a senator!!
Kinda of an oversite person?


Do away with the RULES of Engagement Also!!

If you send me to war---give me the right to shoot first--i'll talk to ya later---crap is for the bir



The second part was not directed to you.

I am not worrying about the draft because THERE IS NO DRAFT! It is not even on the discussion table in congress.
But there are at least 10,000 other things the govt does that are unconstitutional.

[Txanne]

I beg to differ---a few months ago--maybe around christmas time--it was most certainly brought up----

Got shot down fast!!

Tell ya what I am in favor of doing!!

take all these big time gun running dope dealer--and send them over there----they'd have the hood cleaned out and set up shop in a heart beat!!

they like shooting guns and at people---keep em busy and out of our way!




OK---what Constitutitonal problem do you want to discuss??

GO START A THREAD---I'LL BE RIGHT THERE OK?

annie

[GREEN_ALIEN]

You monkey wrench the Draft--by using the Constitution.

The only time i believe the USA should institute the draft--would be if another country attacked us--with full military force.

Then I believe it would be a mute point--as the patriots of this country would line up to fight the enemy. *IMO

annie

annie

WHAT A FLIPPIN' JOKE! If it is/were unconstitutional now it would STILL be then...

There were lots of patriots during WWII but it still took the draft to win the war...

SCREAMIN LEFT

Them grits been on the fire way to long for me annie...

Ted

[candy]

Making men and women kill other people need not be unconstitutional, if they are followers of christ it is against their beliefs.

Enough said!

[Rafael]

Candy,
What if you have a group of christ followers being attacked, with intent to kill, by a group of Mohammad followers? Should the christ followers just let themselves be murdered by the evil mohammad followers or should they defend themselves and kill the mohammad followers?

[candy]

Rafael

That would depend totally on what the Holy Spirit lead the followers to do.


Barring the Holy Spirit shows up, kick the snot out of em, and sort it out later.

Big difference though between defending ones self , family and friends , which is understandable.

Versus starting a war on another countries soil

[admin]

The draft is unConstitutional
Sadly, that is not the case:

The Constitution of The United States of America

Article I - Section 8. The Congress shall have Power ...

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.[/blue]

Anyone interested may read it in situ here:

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/usconstitution.html


Oliver

[Txanne]

To raise and support armies---didnt use the term DRAFT.

It is my belief that it is unconstitutional---Period.

Sincerely---annie

[Txanne]

WHAT A FLIPPIN' JOKE! If it is/were unconstitutional now it would STILL be then...

There were lots of patriots during WWII but it still took the draft to win the war...

SCREAMIN LEFT

Them grits been on the fire way to long for me annie...

Ted



Ted--you and I use to be friend---what the hell happen--been out in the boonies too long---get off my ass.

The term DRAFT isnt used in the CONSTITUTION!!

RAISE AND SUPPORT--TERMS ARE USED.


Txanne

[Txanne]

Sadly, that is not the case:

The Constitution of The United States of America

Article I - Section 8. The Congress shall have Power ...

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.[/blue]

Anyone interested may read it in situ here:

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/usconstitution.html


Oliver



Oliver--Having read Aricle 1 Section 8 many many times--
Please point out the word/term draft? to Me> If you Dont mind?

We cannot percieve a word to mean something--its like shadow boxing---you just keep poking at the air!

Reading Other words that are not in The Bill of Rights have nearly cost us our guns--freedom of speech etc etc.

See what I mean?

Sadly--It has been used---

annie

[Rafael]

Raise and support. The draft is one way to raise an army. Why would it be unconstitutional in that sense.
IMO the draft is unconstitutional in other ways.

[333]

peace,

I can't seem to locate the word conscription either, yet this didn't seem to stop them in the past,
maybe its an ,executive,order/privilege , there are a lot of those.

Peace

[Rafael]

I knew a lawyer who said that anything the govt does is constitutional unless the supreme court says otherwise or you can raise a large enough force to kill the entire house and senate.

[GREEN_ALIEN]

Annie,

You seem to be in a small minority believing the draft is unconstitutional. Please define what raise and support means in this instance.

To raise as used during that period would mean build or assemble and support is self explanatory.

In your way of thinking a volunteer force would be just as unconstitutional as it does not specify VOLUNTEER.

Oh, not on your ummm butt. Just pointing out a wrong when I see it and hoping that the filth does'nt spread to far.

Ted

[nancy1340]

Weeeeeell I don't know if it's constitutional or not but I think every 18 year old right out of high school ought to have to give 2 years to either the service, social service or something like that.

Heck they all (what little % that do) go to collage thinking they know what it's going to take to "save" the world. Let them go out and see what is really going on in the world.

[Txanne]

Raise and support. *The draft is one way to raise an army. Why would it be unconstitutional in that sense.
IMO the draft is unconstitutional in other ways.


Raf--yes it is---But Nancy has a valid idea.

annie

[Rafael]

Nancy's idea is absolutely unconstitutional.
It is definitively slavery. It is actually a very marxist/collectivist idea that would destroy our youth.

[Mark_and_Nicole]

green alien, read this from the bill of rights.

Amendment XIII
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude,
except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the united states,or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2.
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation"

you got it right there rafael.


Mark

[Rafael]

My problem with it is that the left would use it as another way to brainwash our kids into the Borglike thinking that permeates our colleges and schools today.

[nancy1340]

Nancy's idea is absolutely unconstitutional.
It is definitively slavery. It is actually a very marxist/collectivist idea that would destroy our youth.


Hummmmm? Well I guess you are technically right. Especially considering Mark's post.

But how would it "destroy our youth"? Do you not think that today's young people really don't have the work ethic or loyalty to America we grew up with? Well I am pretty sure I am much older than you or Mark but you get what I am asking, I hope.

There are a several countries that require some kind of service for a couple of years between primary school and collage. I wonder if they have the problems we seem to with some young people not being able or willing to take care of themselves?

So many kids today get right out of collage and expect to make $100,000 a year. No one feels they need to pay their dues.

Don't get me wrong, there are millions of great kids in this country but so many that just want to sponge off their parents and then the system. Many that feel they are "entitled" to things.

I guess there is no easy answer.
Well I take that back. The answer is very easy but so many parents don't really parent.

[Rafael]

nancy, my problem is that the left would use it to brainwash our kids into becoming dependant on the nannny state.
Military service is one thing, service in any other fashion would be politically manipulated.

[nancy1340]

nancy, my problem is that the left would use it to brainwash our kids into becoming dependant on the nannny state.


How so?

My thought was something like working on farms, in hosiptals with the needy (the truly needy, not those that can do for themselves), something like building homes or repairing them for the elderly.

They would get paid of course. It would be a way for them to learn what real work is.

I assume you are a woodworker of some kind. You know what hard work is. Very few kids do today. They think flippin' hamburgers at Micky D's for 4 hours a night 3-4 days a week is hard work.

I am 100% behind "no nanny state". No workie, no eatie! Arggggggg Don't get me started on that.

[Rafael]

They'd find a way. There would be "education" centers like boot camp before they had to do something useful. Besides, how many of those kids would resent being forced to do certain work?
You just need to look at the former east bloc nations and their systems of indoctrinating youth, including the mandatory service many of them required. It would teach the kids how to avoid hard work and how to get overpaid cushy govt jobs for life.

[Txanne]

Raf,

Your point is well taken---Soooooooo now you agree with me that the draft is unconstitutional//slavery??


But---heck--lets let the generational little darlings keep [cracking ]out them babies----

I have GREAT faith in this country----those that have died in Iraq---VOLUNTEERED----and i believe men/women will continue to sign up --in readiness to defend this country.

annie---who has GA on ignore

[Rafael]

I always agreed it is unconstitutional, my point was that the govt does thousands of things that are unconstitutional and they never let the law get in their way.

[333]

Peace,

I have GREAT faith in this country----those that have died in Iraq---VOLUNTEERED----and i believe men/women will continue to sign up --in readiness to defend this country.


Yes when they enlisted, it was voluntary, but how many of them truly enlisted specifically to go to war. I am sure there were so many other economical opportunities on the table before all of them, let me think, graduate high school, whats next? For sure there are many opportunities available, here in the US , but the service, for most, is the most plausible.

Peace

[dwh]

Peace,

Yes when they enlisted, it was voluntary, but how many of them truly enlisted specifically to go to war. I am sure there were so many other economical opportunities on the table before all of them, let me think, graduate high school, whats next? For sure there are many opportunities available, here in the US , but the service, for most, is the most plausible.

Peace

Did they sign up to go to war? Perhaps not. But it's not like it's been 30 years since we shipped our soldiers abroad to fight. The young men and women in our armed forces knew perfectly well when they signed up that there was a very real chance they would be shipped off. ESPECIALLY any that have signed up since 9/11.

Don't act like our poor little soldiers didn't have a choice, or know what they were doing.

Don't try to belittle the fact that these men and women volunteered to serve their country in its time of need. You may not agree with the reason we are there, the fact that we are there, how its going, whatever. But these Americans VOLUNTEERED to serve in this countries Armed Forces, and they knew perfectly well what they were doing.

[dwh]

They think flippin' hamburgers at Micky D's for 4 hours a night 3-4 days a week is hard work.

When I was a kid I flipped burgers at McDonalds.

I then did a tour of duty in the Army. Since then I have worked on a tow boat as a deckhand working my way up to tankerman, loading and unloading chemical barges.

When I left that job, to be home with my wife, I went to work as a caretaker in a cemetery, mostly yard work, but included grave digging.

I'd rather do anything than flip burgers in a busy burger joint. Especially for what those people get paid.

[nancy1340]

I cooked for a "after the bar closes" restaurant for a while.
Fast and furious. I loved it.

[ArmySGT.]

The Constitution of The United States of America
The debated Article.


Article I - Section 8. The Congress shall have Power ...

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
This would definitely give the Congress the authority to create an Army.


To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.[/blue]
This is the portion that authorzes a Draft. While it does not state draft or conscription it does give Congress the Authority to make Laws for that Purpose. So you see the Draft is actually permissible under the Constitution.

Not that I would have ever wanted any Draftees. Total PITA. Was enough to have the weaklings who didn’t understand that work was involved in the Army. Now If Congress would raise the Troop Strength Cap they imposed that keeps the Army small.Then released funds for recruitment as well as stopping the Contractor nonsense the Army would be in better shape.

[Txanne]

Did they sign up to go to war? Perhaps not. But it's not like it's been 30 years since we shipped our soldiers abroad to fight. The young men and women in our armed forces knew perfectly well when they signed up that there was a very real chance they would be shipped off. ESPECIALLY any that have signed up since 9/11.

Don't act like our poor little soldiers didn't have a choice, or know what they were doing.

Don't try to belittle the fact that these men and women volunteered to serve their country in its time of need. You may not agree with the reason we are there, the fact that we are there, how its going, whatever. But these Americans VOLUNTEERED to serve in this countries Armed Forces, and they knew perfectly well what they were doing.




Exactly-----Americans can volunteer----they have by the 1000.s---

But the people that died on 9/11---were innocent victums ---they werent given a choice---and I think those that have signed up in the military---and have gone to fight--have that detail in the back of their brain.

Attack our people we'll come after ya!!


annie

[Txanne]

The debated Article.

This would definitely give the Congress the authority to create an Army.

This is the portion that authorzes a Draft. While it does not state draft or conscription it does give Congress the Authority to make Laws for that Purpose. So you see the Draft is actually permissible under the Constitution.

Not that I would have ever wanted any Draftees. Total PITA. Was enough to have the weaklings who didn’t understand that work was involved in the Army. Now If Congress would raise the Troop Strength Cap they imposed that keeps the Army small.Then *released funds for recruitment as well as stopping the Contractor nonsense the Army would be in better shape.



Thank you Army Sgt.

But I think Congress has made quite enough laws.


annie

[Rafael]

Congress can make laws to raise an army, this does not mean they can flout the constitution to do it. A draft violates the 13th amendment, you cannot violate an amendment via legislation. The only workaround would be to repeal the amendment.

[dwh]

Exactly-----Americans can volunteer----they have by the 1000.s---

But the people that died on 9/11---were innocent victums ---they werent given a choice---and I think those that have signed up in the military---and have gone to fight--have that detail in the back of their brain.

Attack our people we'll come after ya!!

annie


We took the fight to them, I say we continue to take the fight to them. At this point when Little Asaad dreams of growing up and killing Americans he can do it in his own land against our trained soldiers, not in the skies or streets of New York, where our civilians, our children get hurt.

[junkyardblacksmith]

It has been argued that the draft is unconstitutional because it violates the parts of the 5th and 13th amendments.

A 5th amendment argument is that the draft treats young people as if they were a criminals, depriving them of their liberties without due process of law. Draftee's are not accused of any crime, nor does the draft board follow the procedures of a criminal court. The interpretation being that the only people in our nation that can be forcefully deprived of their liberties are criminals.

A 13th amendment argument is that the draft creates a slave. "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." It clearly states in the 13th that involuntary servitude is unconstitutional.


Ron Paul has made a speech on this very subject:

Congressman Ron Paul
March 20, 2002

Statement Opposing Military Conscription

Mr. Speaker, I rise to introduce legislation expressing the sense of Congress that the United States government should not revive military conscription. Supporters of conscription have taken advantage of the events of September 11 to renew efforts to reinstate the military draft. However, reviving the draft may actually weaken America’s military. Furthermore, a military draft violates the very principles of individual liberty this country was founded upon. It is no exaggeration to state that military conscription is better suited for a totalitarian government, such as the recently dethroned Taliban regime, than a free society.

Since military conscription ended over 30 years ago, voluntary armed services have successfully fulfilled the military needs of the United States. The recent success of the military campaign in Afghanistan once again demonstrates the ability of the volunteer military to respond to threats to the lives, liberty, and property of the people of the United States.

A draft weakens the military by introducing tensions and rivalries between those who volunteer for military service and those who have been conscripted. This undermines the cohesiveness of military units, which is a vital element of military effectiveness. Conscripts also are unlikely to choose the military as a career; thus, a draft will do little to address problems with retention. With today’s high-tech military, retention is the most important personnel issue and it seems counter-productive to adopt any policy that will not address this important issue.

(continued..)

[junkyardblacksmith]

(continuation..)

If conscription helps promote an effective military, then why did General Vladisova Putilin, Chief of the Russian General Staff, react to plans to end the military draft in Russia, by saying "This is the great dream of all servicemen, when our army will become completely professional...?"

Instead of reinstating a military draft, Congress should make military service attractive by finally living up to its responsibility to provide good benefits and pay to members of the armed forces and our nation’s veterans. It is an outrage that American military personnel and veterans are given a lower priority in the federal budget than spending to benefit politically powerful special interests. Until this is changed, we will never have a military which reflects our nation’s highest ideals.

Mr. Speaker, the most important reason to oppose reinstatement of a military draft is that conscription violates the very principles upon which this country was founded. The basic premise underlying conscription is that the individual belongs to the state, individual rights are granted by the state, and therefore politicians can abridge individual rights at will. In contrast, the philosophy which inspired America’s founders, expressed in the Declaration of Independence, is that individuals possess natural, God-given rights which cannot be abridged by the government. Forcing people into military service against their will thus directly contradicts the philosophy of the Founding Fathers. A military draft also appears to contradict the constitutional prohibition of involuntary servitude.

During the War of 1812, Daniel Webster eloquently made the case that a military draft was unconstitutional: " Where is it written in the Constitution , in what article or section is it contained, that you may take children from their parents, and parents from their children, and compel them to fight the battles of any war, in which the folly or the wickedness of Government may engage it? Under what concealment has this power lain hidden, which now for the first time comes forth, with a tremendous and baleful aspect, to trample down and destroy the dearest rights of personal liberty? Sir, I almost disdain to go to quotations and references to prove that such an abominable doctrine had no foundation in the Constitution of the country. It is enough to know that the instrument was intended as the basis of a free government, and that the power contended for is incompatible with any notion of personal liberty. An attempt to maintain this doctrine upon the provisions of the Constitution is an exercise of perverse ingenuity to extract slavery from the substance of a free government. It is an attempt to show, by proof and argument, that we ourselves are subjects of despotism, and that we have a right to chains and bondage, firmly secured to us and our children, by the provisions of our government."

Another eloquent opponent of the draft was former President Ronald Reagan who in a 1979 column on conscription said: "...it rests on the assumption that your kids belong to the state. If we buy that assumption then it is for the state -- not for parents, the community, the religious institutions or teachers -- to decide who shall have what values and who shall do what work, when, where and how in our society. That assumption isn’t a new one. The Nazis thought it was a great idea."

President Reagan and Daniel Webster are not the only prominent Americans to oppose conscription. In fact, throughout American history the draft has been opposed by Americans from across the political spectrum, from Henry David Thoreau to Barry Goldwater to Bill Bradley to Jesse Ventura. Organizations opposed to conscription range from the American Civil Liberties Union to the United Methodist Church General Board of Church and Society, and from the National Taxpayers Union to the Conservative Caucus. Other major figures opposing conscription include current Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan and Nobel Laureate Milton Friedman.

In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I ask my colleagues to stand up for the long-term military interests of the United States, individual liberty, and values of the Declaration of Independence by cosponsoring my sense of Congress resolution opposing reinstatement of the military draft.

[junkyardblacksmith]

Conscription is fascist ideology, where rights are contingent upon service to the state. The very philosophy the western world vilified and fought against in WW2, but at the same time practiced by instating it's own draft in the United States.

[Txanne]

Conscription is fascist ideology, where rights are contingent upon service to the state. The very philosophy the western world vilified and fought against in WW2, but at the same time practiced by instating it's own draft in the United States.


Junkyard--I had always looked at the 13th also when arguing the draft.

I have said and still say--its slavery--endenturing--illegal
and againest what Americans stand for,

Thank you for that Ron Paul---statement--He is I think the greatest hope for the future of this country.


draftees /volunteers----that was an interesting idea---that maybe they wouldnt see each other as equals? Hummmmmm?

annie

[junkyardblacksmith]

Junkyard--I had always looked at the 13th also when arguing the draft.

I have said and still say--its slavery--endenturing--illegal
and againest what Americans stand for,

Thank you for that Ron Paul---statement--He is I think the greatest hope for the future of this country.


draftees /volunteers----that was an interesting idea---that maybe they wouldnt see each other as equals? Hummmmmm?

annie

No problem.

I personally do not believe the draft is constitutional, necessary or moral. BUT, let me say that I believe that any man (or woman when the situation demands it) who does not take up arms to protect his family and neighbors in the event of an unavoidable morally justified conflict of self defense, is a fool at best.

It is our social, moral, and instinctual obligation, especially as men, to offer our services when such situations arise.

[333]

Peace,


I'd rather do anything than flip burgers in a busy burger joint. Especially for what those people get paid.

Thanks for validating my premise, I to chose the service, for the financial opportunities it revealed, college, 3 hots, a cot, medical, dental and the wonderful esoteric education one can receive, MacClellan, Benning, Jacksonville etc, priceless knowledge.

Don't act like our poor little soldiers didn't have a choice, or know what they were doing.

Don't try to belittle the fact that these men and women volunteered to serve their country in its time of need. You may not agree with the reason we are there, the fact that we are there, how its going, whatever. But these Americans VOLUNTEERED to serve in this countries Armed Forces, and they knew perfectly well what they were doing.

Please stop twisting valid perspectives with personal attacks, Nothing in my post "belittled" anyone.

It is our social, moral, and instinctual obligation, especially as men, to offer our services when such situations arise.

Junkyard,
AMEN

Peace