Bolt Guns for SHTF

[remington]

For a long term TEOTWAWKI type situation how do you guys feel about mil-surp bolt guns as a MBR. It seems that every time a new guy asks about the "best" SHTF gun everybody reccomends the AR-15, SKS, AK-47, etc. Opinions?

[retrieverman]

My bolt gun of choice for everyday carry and SHTF too is a Blaser R-93 with a 308 "tracker length" barrel topped with a Leupold VXIII 1.5-5 illuminated reticle.

[Theyeti]

Surplus bolt guns work. It depends on perspective, where you live at the time and so forth. I think the reason so many state the above mentioned semi-autos is that they are common, well developed, in some cases cheap, and have high capacity, and are cheap to feed in most cases. I also think that these weapons are suggested because potential "social" problems that will arise with SHTF scenarios. Plenty of others including n'er-do-wells will be carrying similair weapons.

Right now I have a surplus bolt in .303 British. Fantastic weapon, with a proven history. The problem is that .303 isn't all that easy to come by where I live. I have to order it if I want any quanity. Still, the ballistics/energy of the round is awesome and the rifle is very accurate, sturdy and dependable. A survival gun, one that I am not looking for a fight with. There are better weapons for that possible situation.

Right now I am eyeballing a 1917 Remington Eddystone in .30-06. In great condition in a fantastic caliber. Another soemtimes over looked rifle is the Mosin-Nagant bolt rifles. Alot of shooters where I live have grown fond of this weapon. Another accurate, rugged survival tool.

My $0.02

[Pitdog]

I think everyone should have one GOOD modern bolt rifle in a .30-06 or .308, that has been built up. (professionally)
Not just factory Rem 700 or Win 70, but one that has been gone through COMPLETELY. This can be done over time, doesn't have to be done all at once.
Recut factory crown if using a factory barrel, and I recommend recutting the factory chamber and setting the barrel back after lapping the lugs and recutting the receiver face. Trigger should be a good crisp 3 lbs, and the stock should be atleast glass bedded if not pillared as well.
Good steel scope bases and rings, lapped and torqued and one good scope.
This will be a high quality, reliable, good shooting rifle for ranges FAR past 100 yards that will take any North American game other than the largest most dangerous bears, and they will falter with the right load and bullet placed well. But for all purpose, a package like this can't be beat.

[Pitdog]

Of course a good set of back up Iron sights is necessary too, but doesn't have to be kept on the gun at all times.

[remington]

1917 Remy. Drooool... Here is why I ask. I am just about to head of to school (NC Kansas) and am on a rather tight budget. I want to develop a survival battery. Already have a working hunting battery (30/06 pump, 12 ga, 22 rifle, 22 handgun and a few other miscelaneous items. I am looking for something economical and with surplus ammo. Now, also a bolt-gun is slower to fire and I think, would extend your ammo supply. I don't expect a lot of social problems in my area if the SHTF. Rural area, small town. (Hopefully in the country soon) Thumbs up for bolt-gun?

[remington]

Also thought about saving for a while longer and getting a Remington 7615 pump .223. I am used to the pump action. Have centerfire, shotgun, and rimfire in it and love it. With practice one can really get the gun moving.

[kawalekm]

Not just factory Rem 700 or Win 70, but one that has been gone through COMPLETELY. This can be done over time, doesn't have to be done all at once.
Recut factory crown if using a factory barrel, and I recommend recutting the factory chamber and setting the barrel back after lapping the lugs and recutting the receiver face. Trigger should be a good crisp 3 lbs, and the stock should be atleast glass bedded if not pillared as well.

You've got to be kidding. This is a ridiculous suggestion. In the real world the only people that are going to do this is a competative shooter in benchrest or other shooting competitions. You are talking about spending either thousands of dollars in gunsmithing fees, or vast numbers of hours in the garage. I should know, because I just finished a project rifle that took me three years to complete.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/kawalekm/2005_gunsmithing_project.jpg
This project was simple in comparison. I only shortened the barrel, re-welded the bolt, mounted a scope, refinished the stock, and put on a recoil pad. And just this took YEARS to finish.

I did it for the enjoyment of doing it myself, but in hindsight, I never would have devoted that amount of time if I just needed to have a rifle to shoot. If you just want a good rifle that you can have with you for deer hunting or whatever, just go buy one of the 399$ Savage or Remington specials on sale in the Sunday newspaper. Save your time and money for the things you think will be really important to your survival.

[WRTN]

*If you just want a good rifle that you can have with you for deer hunting or whatever, just go buy one of the 399$ Savage or Remington specials on sale in the Sunday newspaper. *Save your time and money for the things you think will be really important to your survival.


Well said, I agree especially with the Savage rifles. Savage rifles are VERY well made and very reasonable priced firearms. Why they are so underrate or at least percieved so is a mystery to me. Even more so, the Stevens line of firearms Savage sells is probably the best bargain bar none out there in my opinion. Especially in the predator/varmint type bolt action guns.

The Savage Model 12 FV is a great rifle that shoots very well right out of the box or if you are inclined to do a little gun smithing, shoot with the best of any rifles out there.

If you want a near bench rest grade rifle out of the box the Savage Model 12 Long Range Precisison Varminter (Repeater) is a good choice.

For a great alround very inexpensive but well built multi-purpose bolt gun, the Stevens Model 200 can't be beat.

[Pitdog]

I'm not EVEN kidding AT ALL. Benchrest modifications that take years? LOL! Thousands MAYBE on BR Mods, but everything I listed are just minor accurizing, aside of course the chamber recutting, wich is STILL not a SUPER expensive feat and can make all the difference in the world!

Most all of this can be done one step at a time, wether in your garage or at my place.

Trigger job on Rem/Win 45$ (hour's worth of work)
Recrown 50$ (hour's worth of work)
Glass bed 85$ (several hours over a few days)
Pillar (best done while glassing, do it as a package I/YOU make the pillars) 160$
Pull the barrel and recut the chamber 150$
Recut receiver face and lap lugs 125$ (IF it takes a while to lap the lugs, if not 100$)

I'm sorry you are either not good at garage gunsmithing, or untrained enough, but that hacked up Mauser would take me a Week of solid work putting it into a Semi-inlet stock, plus time between coats of finish AND refinishing the metal) Even with a drill press and no jig, drilling and tapping shouldn't take but an hour or so. Even gas welding the bolt handle and reshaping shouldn't take but a couple of afternoons.
Years of one hour per weekend shouldn't be necessary especially when chopping down the military stock. Done professionally it's still NOT thousands of dollars worth of work.
I will try to post pics.

[Pitdog]

So in a nutshell................. NO, I am NOT kidding. Every man needs ONE done RIGHT bolt rifle to satisfy a world of needs that can be relied upon through weather, terrain, humidity, abuse, and whatever-the-case-may-be and STILL perform at ranges BEYOND 100 yards, because NOT knowing what we may face in the future for sure with the requirements of our rifle, it is best to cover as many bases as possible.
I hunt with a 788 (caliber decided upon by range and terrain)
They cost 119$ brand new with a scope, shoot beyond the average shooter's capability, and better than a truckload of other factory guns with NO mods............ but I'm not heading out the door for unknowns and trusting my life to them.
You flip your coin. I won't.
my .25

[Mr.B]

For a long term TEOTWAWKI type situation how do you guys feel about mil-surp bolt guns as a MBR. *It seems that every time a new guy asks about the "best" SHTF gun everybody reccomends the AR-15, SKS, AK-47, etc. *Opinions?

Its really hard to say. And really matters.

Allot of people I’ve talked to have stated using some standard sporting bolt action rifle with all the fix'ins so to say and with this added and that. Really something like that wouldn’t last long in a SHTF situation. Not to talk smack to anyone.

If the our own government turned on us. And Ammo was almost impossible to get. *Let your enemy be your quarter master. NATO .308

I'd have to say the Indian Lee-Enfield in NATO .308. For a bolt action rifle. *Well because there will be lots of Nato .308 out there. *

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/762ishy/index.asp

From my service time in Kosovo & Macedonia .Some of the most common firearms around that the “other” folks used were. AK’s, sks, Mosin Nagants, different types of 8mm Mausers. Tough reliable weapons, for desperate situations.

[Pitdog]

I have nothing against military bolt rifles. I own a lot of them.
Some altered, sporterized, or totally rebuilt from the action up. Infact I have a LOT of bolt rifles all the way around.

Everyone's idea and perception and goals and intentions are different when it comes to SHTF scenarios. I can get mission specific, but everyone might noy be able to or want to be able to. The rifle I outlined serves a world of needs and is attainable by the average man.
My life is firearms as well as my living, and factory guns are pretty scary if you want to do a little more than shoot them in November.

[remington]

I already have a good all-around rifle Remington 760 30/06 w/3-9x40. Contrary to popular belief these are VERY accurate rifles. I can trust it out way farther than I can trust myself. Am looking for something for strictly soft two-legged critters. Something I won't be afraid to scratch or get dirty, eats mil-surp ammo and is dead reliable. I looked at a Indian Lee-Enfield. Kinda liked it except it was a little long. 308 seems about right caliber wise. Maybe a Mosin or a Enfield Jungle-Carbine.

[madmac]

Pitdog you know your guns. I ran a gunsmithing shop many years ago and had two bolt action guns built just as you discribed. 11 degree crown on both. Harry Larson stocks as I lived just a block from his house in Tucson so I knew the man well and got a great deal. Leopold scopes on both with leopold mounts and bases. Timney trigers adjusted to just over three pounds. One was chambered in .280 and the other in .308. Man did they shoot. Not everyone is willing or wants to build such a weapon. I once had the bolt handle fall off a 700 remington. As for military guns, you will do well and a .308 jungle carbine is a fine weapon, right out of the box. Had one and should have kept it. It is a rugged gun designed to take to the feild under adverse conditions. If you can find one remington, I think you would like the gun as well as the caliber.

[remington]

Pitdog-Rechamber Jungle-carbine to .308?

[Pitdog]

Negative Remington. The bore of the .303 is .311 diameter, and .308 loads are all loaded with .308 Diameter bullets, and therefore, the bullet will rattle down the barrel and you won't be able to hit that bull everyone talks about in the place they describe. Plus the .303 is a rimmed cartridge and the extractor and bolt face won't match.
However- Enfiald did make the #2A which was a .308 smle, and believe it or not, I just saw a (non0original) carbine with a muzzlebreak and scope mount go down the road in a trade.
Find one and buy it, and have it cut down to a more manageable length like 18/20''.

Mac, I got a .284 Dia barrel, thinking of making a .280, I got the reamer and gauges.............. but I like the 7x57 too.

[remington]

I meant rechamber and rebarrel, sorry. Also there are some pretty nice Mexican Mausers in 7x57 running around at about $250 right now. I want ammo to be available in surplus or commercial or imported.

[madmac]

Pitdog, I think the .280 is a great round but if I had to do over I would have went with the 7x57. Less recoil and more accurate. 7x57 was my original choice but the gunsmith convinced me to try the .280 rem. It's all good and the .280 is pretty sweet. Recoil on par with the old 30.06 so it's not really that bad. I shot a 7x57 once at the range and really liked it alot.

[hunter63]

I am a bolt gun guy for the most part, and had a hard time trying to figure out what the attraction to the old mil type rifles were.
My thoughts were save your money, buy a good bolt gun, (souped up, I don't have a problem with) and you will be happy for a long time.
Same with the MBR's, AR's Ak's etc.

I'm not sure that a bolt gun would be my first choice in a fire fight, (unless it was very long range), I would trend to favor the "spray and pray" auto loaders with big clips or shot gun w/buck shot.

That said:

Lately I have been rethinking my position on the low cost surplus rifles, Mausers, Nagants, sks, etc. and the low cost ammo (at least it still not completely out of hand, yet).

I have been stashing these here and there, low enough cost that if they disappeared, (stolen, rusted, broken) that there are still enough stashed that if I need one, it's there.

I couldn't/wouldn't do that with my normal bolt guns and the ammo is just out of the park, including reloading supplies.

[Pitdog]

I would not go with the Mexican Mauser. 7x57 is a GREAT round for sporting use. For less ideal purposes like one might encounter in bad times, for purpose of ease in resupply, I would get a Yugo Mauser, rebarrel it in .308 with a Pre-thread barrel from midway and do some action work, and you would have a fine bolt gun.

[Pitdog]

Mac, I have also considered the .284 Win for that barrel, friend has a reamer.

[ArmySGT.]

Negative Remington. The bore of the .303 is .311 diameter, and .308 loads are all loaded with .308 Diameter bullets, and therefore, the bullet will rattle down the barrel and you won't be able to hit that bull everyone talks about in the place they describe. Plus the .303 is a rimmed cartridge and the extractor and bolt face won't match.
I concur. Though rebarreling one in 45-70 like a Gibbs would be fun.



However- Enfiald did make the #2A which was a .308 smle, and believe it or not, I just saw a (non0original) carbine with a muzzlebreak and scope mount go down the road in a trade.
Find one and buy it, and have it cut down to a more manageable length like 18/20''. No Ishapore made it based on the Number 1 MK3. During the transition to the FAL. So it is an Enfield design remade in 7.62 NATO. Sterling did make some 7.62 NATO conversion kits for N4 Enfileds. I think they are called number 8s. Ishpore is the plant (built by the British) and the town located in India. They are for sale here. Carbine versions were available, not currently. http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Enf-2A__Enfield_2A_.308_NATO_7.62x51_Rifles.html

Mac, I got a .284 Dia barrel, thinking of making a .280, I got the reamer and gauges.............. but I like the 7x57 too. Why not stick to calibers that you can get off the shelf, and would be available most anywhere if TSHTF? Other than that, sounds good.

[Pitdog]

Because I have what I need for bad times. What I build and play with these days is for fun and profit!

I concur with the .45-70 conversion!

Did you get a job you lazy bum? I am off to mine todat for the first time.

[hunter63]

[quote author=ArmySGT. link=board=fir-longarms;num=1217126483;start=20#22 date=08/04/08 at 21:05:08]
I concur. Though rebarreling one in 45-70 like a Gibbs would be fun.

I wasn't aware of a 45/70 Gibbs, did I miss something?
That would be cool.

Rocky Gibbs seemed to like necking down and blowing out a 30-06 cartage for his version (and fore runner of the wsm.)
As far as I know they were necked down cases, 45/70 straight case.

[Pitdog]

Gibbs rifle company did .45-70 conversions on SMLEs.

[hunter63]

Thanks, Pit, learned something today.
Looked it up, didn't even know it existed.

[wy0mn]

Ordered a Mosin today *:).
Missed out on the .303 Enfield my wife wanted. Different source, they didn't get the copy of my C&R in time. :-/
If anyone finds any, please zap my profile & email me. I've hit all the milsurp links I can think of.

Thanx
Lex

[Pitdog]

SOG (Southern Ohio Gunworks) saw enfields yesterday or so.

[wy0mn]

Gracias Pit!

[Pitdog]

Bitte Wy

[longshot]

nothing wrong with a surplus bolt action if TSHTF. i have a .303 enfield the only mod was a sporterize stock that was done in the '50's. this rifle has taken many moose, cariboo, and men. and will take them again if necessary. i just got a winchester '94 in 3030. the more rapid rate of fire might come in handy as a cover for the slower deadlier fire from the enfield.

jsut my .02

ls

[Delmar_Morgan]

I would think any of your old military bolt guns would be good heck theywent through hell and high water , if I had the money I would get a '03 Springfield but I'll settle for Nagant or Enfield.

[crafty2002]

If you already have a 30.06, 12 gauge, .22 rifle and pistol, and are tight on money, buy a SKS!!!! You can't get a better bargin on anything else for a fifle as good as this is.
That is my weapon for close incounters farther than the 9 mm wants to hit anything, (or I should say farther than my ability is to hit anything).
After I got that I would have the 30.06 worked on as pitdog said. One step at a time.
I have a 700 Rem., in 30.06 I bought a year or two after getting out of the army. I was a sniper but I didn't know much about guns back then. Actually I still don't know nearly as much as people like pitdog does, but I sent it back to the shop several times and I do know every time it came back with closer groups. And it shoots good. I have never did it, but I could kill a deer at 6-800 yards. I have no doubt about that.
But who ever the enemy is, unless they are out more than 300 yards I will grab the SKS.
As far as the ammo goes, the 7.62 x 39 mm is about as cheap as you will get for a rifle that will do what the SKS will do.
I have had a lot of guns in my life and the SKS is one I truely like.

I don't see why that wouldn't work on a pump also.

[Boris859]

guess I would use the M1917 sporter first and foremost,30.06 is pretty popular so finding ammo is not to hard,I also have my 20 gauge pump,sks,2 Mosin Nagants,and some .22 rifles,I am pretty sure that as far as hunting food goes am covered,I also have fishing poles,and ice fishing poles,and all the the goodys for that.but seeing the text question is BOLT guns for SHTF I am going to stick with the M1917,besides it's the most accurate rifle I own.2 inch group 200 yards,offhand ,good enough.as far as fighting an enemy I will try to avoid that if I can If there is only 1 no problem,if it's a whole platoon I am outgunned,so I guess they'll find me dead in a pile of brass.

[crafty2002]

Boris, if it's a whole platoon and were fighting I want the 30.06 and want to be 6-700 yards away. As long as I can keep the M-60 from firing I'll be safe because they can't touch me with the M-16's. ;D
I guess they could but I doubt any of them has any idea where to aim for a hit. Unless they have tracers they will fall short.
I wish I could afford a good night scope if they even make one for that range.

Someone here said they had the bolt handle fall off a 700. Is that something that is a regular thing whith them. I had never heard of it. As I said in the post earlier, I don't know what all was done to my rifle now. I don't know if the bolt was welded or not. I have it stores at my sisters so I can't even look at it until I am over there again. I would hate for that to happen in a SHTF senero.

[colby1979]

I bought one of the steyr scouts in 02 an have harvested lots of game with it. it has back up sights, and a built in bipod wich comes in real handy. I would try to stick with something in 06 or 308 as the ammo is common here in the US. the only problem is the cost, generally around 1900 without a scope. I would also look at mausers from suth america as they were chambered in the 7.62 calibers, just stay away form the early ones that were rebarlled/chambered to 308 or 06 (91, 93, 94 and 95).

[Gallowglass]

I've two bolts....though not military surplus my choice was the Howa 1500's in 338 Winchester Mag, and the 270. These two calibers allow me to hunt nearly anything....


http://www.howa1500.com/

[FotoTomas]

To my way of thinking a bolt action surplus rifle would be a great budget option for SHTF and TEOTWAWKI. It would be a serviceable rifle that could handle abuse and hit minute of man to 5 or 6 hundred yards. It would be much better than nothing BUT it would not be the best compromise for the long term. As a preferred weapon for limited circumstances such as college or in areas where more modern arms might be frowned upon not to mention when price is an issue, it might well be your best bet.

I believe a military grade semi-auto rifle in 7.62 NATO would be a better option for TEOTWAWKI. My Springfield M1A for example would give me the ability to shoot long range as well as fast at close range. When one thinks TEOTWAWKI I tend to remember the word looters is plural. A .308/7.62 cartridge would be relatively easy to stock up on and aquire later if necessary. A 10 or 20 round magazine with spares available would be a bonus.

For my wish list I would have a AR15 carbine for the basic rifle along with the Remington 870, a Ruger 10/22 and a servicable pistol. The M1A would be more for the longer range chores and hunting. If I were succesful while hunting I might want a rapid firing rifle nearby to protect the game from others that might be hungry and within earshot of my kill. In addition the ability of the heavier bullet to get through light cover and lots of ammo on tap if necessary could be an asset.

I have owned a Enfield #4MkI and a Mosin Nagant carbine. Great fun guns that I would be happy to have with me if roaming or lost in the woods. Defending my backwoods home during TEOTWAWKI however is a different story. Semi-auto is my choice.

[remington]

The problem with the Springfield for me is price. I would LOVE to have one but I can't spare a grand.

[martialcanine45cal]

In SHTF situations, a high capacity magazine firearm chambered in .308/7.62 or smaller if the 308 recoil is a problem. Today's AR manufacturers offer a lot of caliber options, and there are other high cap platforms to choose from.

For pure outdoor survival, a bolt action would be fine, but in SHTF scenarios, sorry, I want capacity because there is likely to be large groups seeking to make your goods theirs, particularly if people find out you've prepared for such a situation.

FMJ rounds work for target practice and are more affordable, but I prefer lead spire points.

[RangerRick]

I picked up a Mosin Nagant carbine with a pig sticker a couple years ago for $75 and two tins of ammo for a last resort backup type crowbar/throwaway/meat gun. *I suppose if 2 or 300,000,000 or so of the rest of you guys end up dead of plague/desease/war/starvation/zombies/flood/fire/revolution/comet hits or whatever and somehow I don't have to be too concerned with the evil socialist/marxist/pinko commie invasion out of San Fransicko taking what's mine the Nagant may actually have some use. *My logic says that before that need arises a quality MBR or 3 with copious quanities of ammo and large magazine capasity will be a more usefull tool that may hopefully allow me or perhaps my grandchildren to actually find a use for the bolt gun. *In an "ah shoot" situation trouble seldom comes from the direction/distance/time/day/speed/individual or group you imagine it will. *The unexpected is ALWAYS the rule and superior firepower is ALWAYS your friend. *While we may not have the excess ammo to expend to get our backside outta "this" particular damn mess it would be great if it would besides, the alternative really sucks and we face tomorrow when and if it happens. *IMHO while we don't live by meat alone bolt guns are great for making meat but lacking in combat while you oponent is flanking your ass, which "IS" what SHTF really is all about. *Focus on success, you'll live longer.

;)

Rick

[Clem]

1917 Remy. *Drooool... *Here is why I ask. *I am just about to head of to school (NC Kansas) and am on a rather tight budget. *I want to develop a survival battery. *Already have a working hunting battery (30/06 pump, 12 ga, 22 rifle, 22 handgun and a few other miscelaneous items. *I am looking for something economical and with surplus ammo. *Now, also a bolt-gun is slower to fire and I think, would extend your ammo supply. *I don't expect a lot of social problems in my area if the SHTF. *Rural area, small town. *(Hopefully in the country soon) *Thumbs up for bolt-gun?

I think if you want to use a bolt gun as a combat rifle, you are wise to start with a combat bolt gun like a 1903 or a 1917 or perhaps an Enfield. They are much more likely to be able to take sustained fire with out changing point of impact or enlarging group size.

I have a Winchester made 1917. When I clean the bore I can feel the variations in the bore, but the damn things shoots very well. Prone with a sling it shoots into 1.5" at 100 yds. Can't ask for much more than that. On the down side, the stock probably doesn't fit any human. At a minimum it needs something to raise the comb about 1".

The problem with these surplus bolt guns is they are no longer inexpensive. My 1917 cost me $225, but now seems to be worth $600 or $700. The 1903 seems to be available from the DCM, but it is atleast $400. You can get an SKS for about half that.

[Lost_River]

Personally for SHTF type situations I will stick with my Colt AR15 with a Leupold 1.5x5 illuminated reticle. It works quite well in a multitude of roles.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/sanitizedCoyoteColt.jpg

That being said, I do have what I consider an ideal "all around" bolt gun for SHTF and everything else. It is a Tikka T3 Lite stainless in .308. I had the barrel cut to an even 20"s and monuted a 4.5x14 LR Leupold that I had sent back to the factory and had an M1 turret put on for elevation ( I dial for elevation and hold for wind usually).

I originally intended for the gun to wear a 2.5x8 Leupold but I mounted the 4.5x14 on the gun to test out and like it so much I never got the 2.5x8.

I keep extra 5 round detachable magazines (standard models have 3 rd mags, varmint models are 5 rounders) in my pack or jacket pockets and reloading is extremely fast. Overall I do not think I have ever found a rifle that meets my needs from coyotes to elk as well as this one does.

It is very light, packs well, is super accurate (typical Tikka) and makes first round hits on a 12" steel plate @ 500 yards just plain childs play. I figure for a potential SHTF gun it has a lot of good qualities.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Tikka308s006.jpg

[Lost_River]

With its big brother, a Tikka T3 varmint .308:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Tikka308s001.jpg

[macgeoghagen]

any thoughts on the M48 mauser? thats the yugo post war one.

[otterbob]

any thoughts on the M48 mauser? thats the yugo post war one.

Solid !

Just reload so that you have a good supply of ammo.

Otter Bob

[Pitdog]

Yugo is perfectly serviceable and solid, as Otter pointed out, but is slightly less suited to customization by the homesteader, as the action is shorter than a standard 98 and choices for stocks are limited, as well as in things like triggers and other little things.
That being said it is a classic rugged Mauser pattern gun that works well. I am working on one for myself (when I have time for my own guns LOL) and keeping it in 8mm.
I am working on another project just for this specific thread to be released as I get more progress done on it.
Sako is of course an awesom peace! like them for their actions for a lot of different applications and reasons. The reason I might steer away from one towards something more common is parts availability in an uncertain future. The Remington 700 is the 350 Chevrolet engine of guns, parts, accessories, custom upgrades, on and on and on.
In finality there are MANY choices based on individual likes dislikes wants, AOs etc. Budgets too! But what are you truly willing to risk your life on?

[Wyzyrd]

Right now, Moisin-Nagant 91/30 bolt rifles (without scopes) are selling for approx. $100 in Virginia. 7.62x54R ammo is still pretty cheap in bulk. It's not a modern battle-rifle by any means, but can still "reach out and touch someone"

The people I generally listen to (a retired USMC sniper and a retired Royal Marines sniper) have each gotten one in the past month.

I think I'll follow suit as soon as the IRS gets paid

[logansackett]

I found a moisin nagant for 130.00 today and 25 round boxes going for 15.00. Think I will go get it. Thanks for all the input and info. M

[huckelberry]

remington 700 comes with an adjustable trigger,safe to bout 2.5 or maybe 3 lbs,if ya go too light you ll ge slam fires ,all the rest i agree with,pillar bedding cut the crown,depends how it shoots weather ya need to clean up the chamber or not....done this on several rifles,traded labor with the gunsmith,,makes a huge difference ,you should also have a spare exctractor,small an cheap,bout the only thing ever seems to fail on the remington 700,s... ;)

[huckelberry]

some of those old russian moisin-nagant rifles were made by winchester,they are pretty clunky by todays standards.....my theory is...my life is worth spending the $ for the best quality weapons i can find....dont know what your life is worth....an my experience is marine corp as well,outshot the whole btn.includeing sta plt.thats snipers for you civilians... ;D

[Oblio13]

remington 700 comes with an adjustable trigger,safe to bout 2.5 or maybe 3 lbs,if ya go too light you ll ge slam fires ...

Slamfires happen with auto-loaders that have free-floating firing pins.

[Stinger]

What is the original question? Oh, yeah! :D

For a long term TEOTWAWKI type situation how do you guys feel about mil-surp bolt guns as a MBR. It seems that every time a new guy asks about the "best" SHTF gun everybody reccomends the AR-15, SKS, AK-47, etc. Opinions?

The last thing I would choose as an MBR suitable for use in many TEOTWAWKI situations would be a bolt action rifle. (Don't any of you guys read FerFAL?) For hunting who cares! However for fighting, or for fighting AND hunting? Game doesn't shoot back; but, other people do. Once an opponent closes to inside 100 yards you're going to have big problems trying to keep the, 'rats off you' with a bolt action rifle; and, I don't care how accurate it might be.

You're, also, going to have problems trying to move around, unnoticed or surreptitiously, with a full stock, full length, bolt action rifle. Besides, in my experience, fewer than 5 out of every 100 shooters know how to use a bolt action rifle properly in a combat situation. The only other thing I'll add is, if you really need one, it's better to have any gun - any gun - rather than no gun at all. ;)

[Oblio13]

... The last thing I would choose as an MBR suitable for use in many TEOTWAWKI situations would be a bolt action rifle. (Don't any of you guys read FerFAL?) ... Once an opponent closes to inside 100 yards you're going to have big problems trying to keep the, 'rats off you' with a bolt action rifle; and, I don't care how accurate it might be.

You're, also, going to have problems trying to move around, unnoticed or surreptitiously, with a full stock, full length, bolt action rifle ...

I have to disagree with both premises. As I remember being told early on in the Marines, "Spray and Pray" is just impressive noise. "Firepower is bullets hitting people".

There aren't going to be any suicidal human-wave assaults by looters. They're looking for easy pickin's, not 72 virgins and a golden throne in paradise. Fighting off teeming hordes of zombies is a Walter Mitty fantasy, it just doesn't happen in refugee situations. One well-aimed round will solve almost any potential looter problem.

A hunting-style rifle would fairly unobtrusive where I live. But a Rambo-wannabe dressed in surplus camo and trying to sneak around with a Death Blaster 3,000 would probably attract a lot of negative attention.

[Stinger]

I have to disagree with both premises. As I remember being told early on in the Marines, "Spray and Pray" is just impressive noise. "Firepower is bullets hitting people".

There aren't going to be any suicidal human-wave assaults by looters. They're looking for easy pickin's, not 72 virgins and a golden throne in paradise. Fighting off teeming hordes of zombies is a Walter Mitty fantasy, it just doesn't happen in refugee situations. One well-aimed round will solve almost any potential looter problem.

A hunting-style rifle would fairly unobtrusive where I live. But a Rambo-wannabe dressed in surplus camo and trying to sneak around with a Death Blaster 3,000 would probably attract a lot of negative attention.

:rolleyes: Some days on the internet are better than others! Lately I've started thinking that maybe I shouldn't be spending so much time on the, 'idiot net' where personality, prejudice, ignorance, and opinion seem to mean more than either honest effort, or experience, or function. Geeze, who said anything about, 'spray 'n pray'? Who said anything about, 'hordes of attackers', or about, '72 virgins'? (How does sex fit into this discussion, anyway? And, did somebody actually mention, 'Rambo'?)

There have been numerous studies all the way from the American battle tactics and weapons used at San Juan Hill to the characteristics and disadvantages of the small arms used by the terrorists at the 1972 Munich massacre. These studies have unanimously upheld the necessity and advantage of small arms: rates-of-fire, ease-of-fire, and ease-of-reloading in order to defeat ANY sizable or well-armed opposition.

The additional topics of: facile recoil management, controled muzzle rise, and reduced front sight dwell time pertinent to the use of small arms have, also, been touched upon; and all are applicable to the problem-at-hand.

'Spray 'n pray' is, indeed, just a lot of noise; but, I wasn't talking about blasting away at dense cover the way the boys did in, 'Tears Of The Sun'. (What was that all about?) You can worry about hordes of fanatics and wild 'n crazy virgins if you want to. My suggestion, however, would be to hang onto your ass and bring plenty of Band-Aids the first time you come up against a 3 man assault team that's armed with semiautomatic weapons and knows what they're doing.

How you dress is, of course, your business. Me? I don't care if you wear camo or a tutu. No matter what you wear, though: Under these circumstances you'll very quickly find out what your bolt action rifle is actually worth! :p






PS: As anyone at Wolff Gunsprings could tell you: Slam-fires do not occur in auto-loaders that have, 'free floating firing pins' - 'Free floating' pins are very rare - especially in civilian firearms. (The only example I can think of, off-hand, is early model Yugo SKS carbines!) There are numerous other reasons, both more probable and possible, that might cause a semiautomatic design to slam-fire.

That's it - Mauai here I come! :D

[Oblio13]

... numerous studies ... American battle tactics and weapons ... characteristics and disadvantages of the small arms ... These studies ...

I retired not long ago after twenty years in the Marines. I'm reasonably familiar with and still interested in weapons and tactics. I would like to see these studies. Perhaps you could post links.

... Slam-fires do not occur in auto-loaders that have, 'free floating firing pins' - 'Free floating' pins are very rare ... (The only example I can think of, off-hand, is early model Yugo SKS carbines!) There are numerous other reasons, both more probable and possible, that might cause a semiautomatic design to slam-fire...

The M1 Garand, M14, M1A, M1 Carbine, M16, AR15, late model (not "early") SKS, AK47, AKM47, AK74, and many others are all auto-loaders with those "very rare" free-floating firing pins. In other words, most of the rifles on the planet. They all dent the primer on loading. They are all susceptible to slamfires when single-loaded without a clip or magazine or when very dirty. That's the definition of a slamfire:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slamfire

... facile recoil management...

Even after doing a Google search and using a dictionary, I have no idea what you're talking about. You don't, either. ;)

[Pathfinder]

Here is another vote for the Enfield family...

Thats all I own now, i sold all the rest to buy more Enfields.

[Pitdog]

The Wikipedia isn't wrong, but it isn't completely right. A slam fire is defined as a firearm that discharges immediately upon going into battery, without the trigger having been pulled by the operator of a firearm wether it be a direct or indirect firing pin. A Double barrel shotgun that closes when the box lock is closed is guilty of 'slam' firing. Especially if one 'slams' the action closed. So a bolt or ANY other type of action can slam fire, especially when 'trigger' work has been performed that is BAD.

A recent lawsuit brought against a prominent firearm company in the US is in reference to a bolt action rifle 'slam' firing. I was expert witness in a manslaughter case that happened upon a BOLT rifle SLAM firing upon going into battery.

Yes, I are coleje edjoocatud :) In Fyrearmms!

I still say the most important bolt action rifle you may have in an emergency is the one you have!

[Oblio13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slamfire


"A slamfire is a premature, unintended discharge of a firearm that occurs as a round is being loaded into the chamber. Slamfires are most common in military firearms that have a free-floating firing pin."

[flatblack]

I think a bolt rifle would be a fantastic thing to have come SHTF time.

Hell, why not? Anything that reliably puts a hole where you want it is a positive thing in my book.

That is not to say that having something like an old M44 as your one and only "battle rifle" is necessarily the best possible outcome.. That might not actually be so good. But I'd take one over a sharp stick any day of the week.

I think that "SHTF" here is a pretty broad idea. Looters, zombies, communist power grabs, etc are a lot less likely than being dead broke, hungry, and snowed in during the middle of a harsh winter.
I'm more worried about the practical aspects of a SHTF scenario. Civilization may have largely collapsed at that point, but day to day life goes on.

I'm less concerned about repelling the invading army of mutant post-apocalyptic scavengers than I am with keeping my family warm and fed.

That being said, I guess if all I had was an old M44 and a few stripper clips of ammo, then I'd load it up and face whatever came my way. Maybe this is just me being a pessimist, but I think in a true SHTF type of situation, that's probably a lifetime supply of guns and ammo anyway.

Now that's a cheery thought. :(