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adventure_ingles
02-03-2009, 01:30 AM
I was thinkin of getting a .308 for a SHTF scenario. Would that be suitable for punching thru vehicles and/or body armor? If there is a food shortage or something a lot of city slickers from Columbus would be heading down towards my area and I might be in a situation where i need to put some rounds thru a car or truck door. I am looking for a semi auto rifle that could accomplish this.
Around my area we do have some spots where you might have 500 to 600 yards you can shoot but most of any combat situations would be around 100 to 200 yards.Too many trees and hollers for much farther. But I still would like to be able to reach out and touch my target at around 500 yards or so--Just in case. With iron sights. No scopes.

What is a decent rifle that can accomplish this? preferably under $1000 too.
If the .308 is not suitable for puncturing vehicles what is something that would be? Is ammo pretty expensive for .308? How much you reckon would 2 grand buy? I have a 3 grand budget for gun and ammo right now.
Thanks

kawalekm
02-03-2009, 05:22 PM
Given a choice, I would never spend that kind of money one one single gun, no matter how great it was. Me personally, I've gone for quantity over quality. Most of the price is actually finish, not functionality, so you get the most bang for your buck (sorry, couldn't help it) with utilitarian guns.

Here's what you can get with 2k at today's prices.

A generic Savage/Remington/Winchester bolt rifle in .270/7mm/.308/.30-06 for about 400$.
A Ruger mini-14 in either .223 or 7.62X39 for 750$.

A .22 rimfire for 250$.

A .357magnun revolver or a .40S&W or .45 ACP pistol for about 400$.

A 12 gauge pump shotgun for about 300$

Add that all up and it comes to 2100$. Make those a combination purchase and you might negociate a lower price still. Spend the rest of your 900-1000$ on ammo for all of them and you're set for life for just about any situation they can throw at you.
Michael

Scout
02-03-2009, 08:24 PM
I would go with 5.56mm, it's a better all-pourpose cartridge (IMHO), and a lot cheaper. And with M885 62gr FMJ's, it penetrates steel beter than .308 FMJ's. A.308 M80 ball will punch through one side of a steel helment at I believe 800m, 5.56mm M885 will do it at 1400m. It does not work as well in junk barriers, but for punching through vehicles or body armor, there's no practical difference within the ranges you're talking about. The difference is that with 5.56, you can put a lot more ammo into the target in the same amount of time.

However, if you want a semi-auto .308, your two best choices are the AR-10 or the M1A. Other designs like the FAL or G3 are harder to find parts for.

Tim Horton
02-03-2009, 09:00 PM
Howdy

Only have experience with two semi-auto 308 rifles.

Guy I worked with had a "tanker gerand" in 308.

18" barrel 8 shot M1 in 308. It was limited to the 8 shot enblock clips. A little ammo sensitive. In that he would have trouble with reloads. Of several hundred rounds of all manner of surplus ammo that I fired through it, the performance was more than adequate. Some clips would eject out the 7th round unfired with the 6th empty, but I was told that was a clip thing. Not the rifle.
-----------------
The other was a Century FAL. My brother in law bought it at a gun show a few years ago, for $350.oo I think.

The 20 round magazines are great, but heavy. And some are hard to lock in and get out. Shot several hundred rounds of all manner of surplus, steel case, commercial soft point and various unknown reloads.

It digested them all without a complaint. If you dialed the gas pressure down too low a few rounds would not eject reliably, but that was my fault for turning it down. If you didn't vent enough gas it would fling brass a fair distance. But who cares. Also, it was a little rough on soft point noses sometimes.

Sights on either were not good enough to be shooting coffee cups at 600 yards. But car windows would not be safe at that distance, in my opinion.

Kind of liked the feel of the FAL over the Gerand. Just my 2cents worth.

Good luck
Wyo

snake
02-03-2009, 09:53 PM
The .308 is a very strong round. I have two, one semi, and one bolt gun. Have two .223/5.56mm, both semi's. Last but not least as they say, my 10/22. My handguns are another story. Sufffice to say, unless you are up in the wilds of Alaska with the BIG bears, the .308 should have you covered. I started on the big end and worked backswards. Just be comfortable with what you get.

Mr.B
02-03-2009, 10:51 PM
If your looking to save money and buy a hard hitting rifle, that will eat up surplus ammo. You could review this page.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/

Heres a surplus Boltgun in .308 well really Nato 7.62x51. You can get them for about $175.

I got one they are great.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/762ishy/index.asp

-B

kawalekm
02-04-2009, 12:07 PM
Hi B
I checked out the site, but didn't find the section where they actually sell guns. I have a class three license, so I would be interested in purchasing from them.
Michael

rice paddy daddy
02-04-2009, 02:17 PM
I was fortunate to have been in the Army when the M14 was still used in Basic and as a Stateside rifle. I wasn't issued an M16 until my trip to Nam.
After years of longing, I was finally able to buy a Springfield Armory M1A that was built in the early 90's with all GI parts (except receiver, of course). It set me back $1600, but it's worth every penny.
The only thing an AR15 and 5.56 mm (.223) has going for it is weight. It's performance on humans, compared to 7.62 NATO (.308 Win), leaves a lot to be desired.
Just the opinion of an old soldier, your mileage may vary. :)

snake
02-04-2009, 05:32 PM
I was fortunate to have been in the Army when the M14 was still used in Basic and as a Stateside rifle. I wasn't issued an M16 until my trip to Nam.
After years of longing, I was finally able to buy a Springfield Armory M1A that was built in the early 90's with all GI parts (except receiver, of course). It set me back $1600, but it's worth every penny.
The only thing an AR15 and 5.56 mm (.223) has going for it is weight. It's performance on humans, compared to 7.62 NATO (.308 Win), leaves a lot to be desired.
Just the opinion of an old soldier, your mileage may vary. :)
Same here.. Qualified w/the M14 at PI. Loved it then and in my trips to the bush. Love my M1A now too! ;D Just the opinion of an older Marine. My mileage is probably about the same as ur's RPD! 8)

scanr
02-04-2009, 07:22 PM
I have both a mini 14 and an AR the 223 is quite capable of putting holes through 1/4 in steel plate no problem. I had set up a 1/4 in thick steel target hanging off a chain. I had thought it would just go clang and dent up. I started shooting it and the target wouldn't even move hardly. I thought I was missing it. I walked up and checked it out only to find neat little 5.56mm holes in my steel plate.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4819/223holesvr5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
By scanr (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/scanr)

WRTN
02-04-2009, 07:24 PM
For the dollar spent, in my opinion, Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) rifles in the M1 Garand is probably the BEST bargain out there. *

They can be purchased AND delivered to your door via FEDEX for around $400 if you can catch the "rack grade" rifles before they are sold out. *No FFL middle man. *In my opinion the "service grade" rifles are the best buy. *

They fire the aging 3006 round but CMP sells this ammunition at half the cost of any other. *The 3006 in my opinion is as good or better than similar rounds for the dollar spent.

http://www.thecmp.org/

While you are at it, NOW would be a GREAT time to join the APPLESEED PROJECT as an affiliate organization and learn about good riflemanship and the history and values that birthed this once great nation. * ;)

http://www.appleseedinfo.org/

Mr.B
02-04-2009, 10:21 PM
Hi B
I checked out the site, but didn't find the section where they actually sell guns. *I have a class three license, so I would be interested in purchasing from them.
Michael

Its just an Informational site on Surplus firearms thats it.

-B

adventure_ingles
02-04-2009, 11:30 PM
Thanks yall for all the info.

Scout
02-05-2009, 12:25 AM
If you've really got some money burning a hole in your pocket, and you're thinking about a prescision rifle, check out the Springfield Armory M25 Whitefeather (http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=17), named in honor of Marine sniper Carlos Hathcock.

Mad_Professor
02-05-2009, 02:56 AM
M1A and don't look back. *A match grade will put a 20 rd clip in a jagged hole at 100yds.

If you need to take out cars see if you can find some AP (black tipped) military rds. *These I've seen go through an old truck w/6cyl : both fenders and block (cast iron).

Also look for blue tipped rds (incenderary) . A shot or two through a gas tank followed by a blue tip will light things up.

Get the full cleaning kit w/chamber (barrel) cleaner that fits in the stock. Always clean the gas chamber if you will not use it for a while. Don't forget the bore cleaner and LSA

A 5.56 is a toy in comparison.

martialcanine45cal
02-05-2009, 11:00 AM
Based on the criteria and scenarios provided, I would definitely purchase a firearm chambered for .308 or 7.62x51Nato, in a semi-automatic platform.

You are posing this question in the context of self-defense against an assault from urbanites. Here are the key factors on which I base my recommendation:
- - - Urban assailants raiding for food/shelter/supplies/vehicles or just to pass the time would not travel alone but in groups, so single magazine capacity is of utmost importance. This eliminates bolt action and many 'hunting' semi-automatics as viable options.
- - - They would not be concerned with 'their' wounded - not stopping to care for them nor to remove them from fire, so putting each one down immediately with a shot or two is equally important. 5.56 will not reliable do this, period.
- - - Unless there is all-out war with enemies identifiable by definitive traits/uniforms/vehicles, you will not need to nor probably be justifiable in shooting out beyond a few hundred yards. Most encounters would likely be around 100 yards or less, so a standard 16"-20" mil-spec barrel would serve you fine.

Based on those factors, a large cap semi-automatic AR, M14, or M1A are definitely in order. My DPMS ARs (LRs) are chambered in 7.62 with 20rd mags; they function well with any ammo 7.62 or .308 I feed them. One rifle has a 16in mil-spec heavy barrel and the other an 18" bull barrel that suit me just find in an area in Michigan likely similar to yours.

Unfortunately, ARs from nearly any company placed on order will require a 12-24 month wait. Their mags and parts are also slim on the market. A .308/7.62 AR will run from $900 - $1,500 for a basic model. Mags cost from $25 on up (on sale, discount manufacturers, etc).

Also, no manufacturing standard exists industrywide among those companies who produce ARs in .308/7.62, so most parts/receivers/mags are not interchangeable.

You could scour gun stores to see if an AR has escaped the gun runs on the shelf, but because of the wait, lack of parts standard, and cost, you may be better off looking at the other options suggested here.

BTW, for close quarters combat say under 25 yards against multiple assailants, you can never beat a good 12gauge loaded with buckshot.
- - -

rice paddy daddy
02-05-2009, 12:13 PM
It's unfortunate that we have a whole generation of veterans who have only known the M16 platform. :'(
Soon we will be able to say that about the 9mm service pistol also.

adventure_ingles
02-05-2009, 02:13 PM
Well so much for finding a .308 here.
I havent been to a gun store for a while here and have come to find out most shelves are bare- no ammo hardly neither. The local store here has 25 ARs on backorder and no semiauto guns left- not even .22's. Guess everybodys stockin up bigtime here. Ive got enough to last me for a while though with what i got.
Im going to a big gunshow on monday though. Hope to have some luck there.

Stinger
02-05-2009, 02:51 PM
First off - If you're going to go the surplus 7.62x51mm route, I'd strongly suggest that you take whatever rifle you buy and have it's chamber headspaced by a competent gunsmith.

(There have been a lot of chamber, leade, and pressure problems with foreign military 7.62's.)

Second, take a lesson from FerFAL - If you're going to be carrying a rifle in an urban SHTF situation then that rifle has to meet two principal requirements: (1) It must be able to be easily used and swung from inside a vehicle; and, (2) it must be capable of being easily concealed underneath a cover garment as you move about the neighborhood.

(In order to prevent you from becoming every sniper's immediate, 'target of opportunity'!) *

I used an M1 Garand most of my adult life. I could always put a 150 grain ball round (literally) between a target's eyes at anywhere inside 3-4 hundred meters.

Still, a 30-06 would NOT be my first choice for serious urban tactical use; for that I have a tactical entry rifle with a: sling, collapsible stock, multiple magazines, enhanced optics, and a flash suppressor in 5.56x45mm caliber.

(It's just a better weapon for: returning me home, getting me through, 'injun country', or just plain keeping, 'the wolves' away from anywhere near the front door!) ;) *

scanr
02-05-2009, 09:03 PM
Still, a 30-06 would NOT be my first choice for serious urban tactical use; for that I have a tactical entry rifle with a: sling, collapsible stock, multiple magazines, enhanced optics, and a flash suppressor in 5.56x45mm caliber.

Though a 30-06 would make a fine sniper riffle. *Add a high power scope and "BAM," venison stew or end of a threat.

alandanielyoung
02-06-2009, 06:31 PM
I just got a m44 AKA Mosin-Nagant. I payed 100 for the rifle. I also got 900 rounds for 180 ( .20 cent per round). For 280 dollars I got a rifle that is older then me and mine dad, and a lot of rounds. My first time firing it I got 2in grouping at 50m. ( I know with some pretince I can get a lot better). So far I am very happy with mine SHTF rifle.
P.S.
The three things I like about this rifle are:
1) Its cheap, the rounds are cheap.
2) I pull the trigher and stuff comes out. 7.62X54R FMJ stuff ( I was in the army and I dis-like the m-16/ar-15 )
3) There is no way in hell I am going to hurt it.

rice paddy daddy
02-06-2009, 07:06 PM
I have two Mosin Nagant's, an M44, and a 91/30. Fun rifle, cheap to shoot, sent a lot of Nazi's to valhala during the Great Patriotic War.
Just make sure you clean it well after shooting military ammo, it's mostly all corrosive.

Mr.B
02-06-2009, 07:17 PM
I have 7 Mosin Nagants..of diffrent makes....they breed like rabbits...

-B

adventure_ingles
02-07-2009, 12:26 AM
Second, take a lesson from FerFAL - If you're going to be carrying a rifle in an urban SHTF situation then that rifle has to meet two principal requirements: (1) It must be able to be easily used and swung from inside a vehicle; and, (2) it must be capable of being easily concealed underneath a cover garment as you move about the neighborhood.


I live a good ways from any urban area and i try to never go anywhere near them cesspits if i can help it. I was mainly thinking about having to use it against invading urban people from the big cities trying to take what i have in case of a food shortage/ catastrophe/ disaster or any other scenario.

scanr
02-07-2009, 02:24 AM
If that is your concern, I would go with an AR or an AK. You will want a semi and I don't think the added expense is worth it. An AR 223 or AK 7.56 can be had at half or less than what a 308 semi would cost you. Them russian riffles will eat russian ammo very well, so you will save there.

Pitdog
02-07-2009, 12:17 PM
All I can say is that I feel bad for people who don't already have something to rely on because of age or finances. All of the people who had the age and money should have already had everything they wanted (or needed) long prior to the current crisis.

alandanielyoung
02-07-2009, 11:27 PM
I have two Mosin Nagant's, an M44, and a 91/30. Fun rifle, cheap to shoot, sent a lot of Nazi's to valhala during the Great Patriotic War.
Just make sure you clean it well after shooting military ammo, it's mostly all corrosive.

After dealling with an m-16, I'm very good about weapon cleaning. But thank-you.

alandanielyoung
02-07-2009, 11:33 PM
I have 7 Mosin Nagants..of diffrent makes....they breed like rabbits...

-B
They breed like rabbits? Thats cool!! But how do I tell if I have a male or female rifle? Or are they A-sexual ( Being both male and female )? Or are they Self-Propaqating? I ask because I would like to breed them. Breed a smaller .22lr M44. Just to save money.
God-Bless

Mr.B
02-08-2009, 11:24 AM
They breed like rabbits? Thats cool!! But how do I tell if I have a male or female rifle? Or are they A-sexual ( Being both male and female )? Or are they Self-Propaqating? I ask because I would like to breed them. Breed a smaller .22lr M44. Just to save money.
God-Bless


Ya pretty much...A-sexual I think? Want a M-44 in .22? There was a Mosin Nagant trainer in .22LR, well really not a Mosin Nagant but It looked almost like one.

-B

alandanielyoung
02-08-2009, 01:38 PM
Ya pretty much...A-sexual I think? Want a M-44 in .22? There was a Mosin Nagant trainer in .22LR, well really not a Mosin Nagant but It looked almost like one.

-B

How would a M-44 in .22lr being diffence then a walmart special bolt-action .22lr?
God-Bless

Mr.B
02-08-2009, 02:54 PM
Heres a good Russian .22

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT20ppiTB9w