Going to the gun show in May...

[Bruenor]

As a preface, this thread belongs partly in the Handgun section and partly in the Rifle section. Because of this, I flipped a coin and am posting it here.

At the end of May there's a large gun show in Indianapolis. I've been to this show before, and have bought all of my guns (all four of them) there. From what I can see, you can get some good deals if you look around. I've been saving up some money, but I can't decide what I'd like to get next.

First, here's what I currently have.

1.) Ruger 22/45 Pistol
2.) Mosin Nagant 7.62 x 54
3.) Puma .44 Magnum Lever Action
4.) Winchester 1300 12 gauge with rifle sights

So here's my situation. I'd like to get a second handgun. The .22 is great, incredibly cost effective, and just all-in-all a useful gun to have. But, from a self-defense perspective, it's a little "undersized". Since I have my carry permit, I'd like to have something that I can carry. I've thought of getting a Charles Daly 9mm Hi-Power clone or a 1911 .45. I like the Daly for the price ($309 + tax at the last show), and for the cost of ammo, but the .45 may be better for a self-defense weapon.

Now, the other side of me wants to add another rifle to my collection. (See how this could go in either thread.) I just got done reading an old thread comparing the AR15 to the SKS. I've fired an SKS before, and like the fell of it, but I've never fired an AR15. I'm looking for a hunting (but not in Indiana due to current laws) / self-defense rifle. The SKS would fit nicely next to my Nagant, and it's cheaper than the AR15, but I've heard great things about the AR15 accuracy compared to the SKS.

So, what do you think? Go with a new pistol first, or grab me another rife. Whichever one you think I should go with, what do you think of the ones that I've mentioned? Or is there something different you would recommend?

Thanks everyone.

[karlsgunbunker]

Hi-Powers are nice and 9m is the cheapest Centerfire Ammo around.
RIA makes a nice 1911 for $350.
Your Mosin is a nice hunting rifle.
You could get a Single shot Rossi or Handi-Rifle and a Handgun.

[kawalekm]

Hi Bruenor
If you already have a 7.62, I'd forget completely about getting a .223 or 7.62X39 for hunting. Neither are an acceptable deer hunting cartridge. Great for plinking, or self defense, but leave them home on opening day.

Sounds like you need a good handgun next. Though I have both 9mm and .45, more and more I'm leaning toward 40S&W. It has more umph than 9mm, and greater capacity than a .45. I picked up a Ruger P94 for 380$. Another option is a magnum revolver. A .357 might be perfect for you. You already have a .44 magnum rifle though, so it might make sense to get a .44 magnum revolver. You can shoot .44 specials in it for everyday practice shooting. The truth is, once you start down this path, you'll realize that what you really need is at least one of everything.
Michael

[Bruenor]

karlsgunbunker

I love the Mosin. It's a lot of fun to take out to the range. It's kind of funny, because I bought that and a little Phoneix Arms .22 pistol as my first two guns. Now there's a wide difference for someones first guns!

I can't use the Mosin hunting here in Indiana, but I think I can take it out to Missouri to hunt with the father-in-law. I'm thinking about getting another because they are so cheap. I bought mine for $85, but then discovered that the stock looks like it had a crack in it that has been repaired. My idea is to buy a second one in better shape to keep original, and then if the stock on my first one goes I can put on an after-market stock.

kawalekm

I'd LOVE to have a .44 magnum revolver. Sadly, it's not in the budget. To support my lever rifle habit, I'm going to learn how to reload. I just missed a class at the gun range that I joined, so next time around I'll attend the classes. If I'm learning to reload for my lever action, having a revlover to match just makes sense.

I've considered a 40, but I've never shot one. How different is the recoil between a 9mm and a 40? Also, how much more is the ammo?

[karlsgunbunker]

Bruenor,
You can get a NEF Handi Rifle in a Pistol Caliber for hunting in Indiana.
I just sold one in .45LC.
You can get them new for around $200 or used on Gunbroker or Auction Arms.

.40 ammo is a lot more expensive than 9mm.
I don't know about recoil, I've never fired a .40.

[remington]

My opinion is to get a Ruger. It is extremely economical ($385+tax). Also I agree with karlsgunbunker on the NEF. You can get one in 7.62x39, or .223 and they are extremely accurate.

[Bruenor]

Bruenor,
You can get a NEF Handi Rifle in a Pistol Caliber for hunting in Indiana.
I just sold one in .45LC.
You can get them new for around $200 or used on Gunbroker or Auction Arms.

.40 ammo is a lot more expensive than 9mm.
I don't know about recoil, I've never fired a .40.


Do you think that the .44 magnum lever action would work well for hunting deer? That's basically why I bought it.

[High_Desert]

Do you think that the .44 magnum lever action would work well for hunting deer? That's basically why I bought it.

The .44 Magnum has accounted for a lot of deer and your Puma is a good rifle. You might try reading some books by Elmer Keith, Skeeter Skelton, Paco Kelly or John Taffin. A good sixgun can do amazing things with practice on the shooters part.

Learning to reload is invaluable. Not only does it save money, but you can tailor loads to your gun and what you are doing with it. I own and carry a couple of auto's, but my heart beats faster when holding a good sixgun.

Best Regards,
HD

[kawalekm]

Hi Bruenor
Before anything else, could you please outline the Indiana gun laws that effect hunting. *I don't know anything about your state, so I don't want to give you advice you'll never use.

What I can tell you though is that reloading is "must do" for any serious shooter. *I've reloaded for decades now and cast my own .44 mag bullets. *I have a very nice load with a Lyman 250grain SWC pushed by 16 grains of BlueDot. *It costs me about 4$ to make a box of those. *I'm even branching out into making my own jacketed hollowpoints for the .44. *Here's a pic of a 240grain hollowpoint that I made from a .40S&W case. If you reload, you have an extrodinary number of options to make very high quality ammunition that is not available in the store!
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/kawalekm/Swaged44bullet.jpg

The recoil from a .40 is slightly more than a 9mm. *You can tell the difference blindfolded, but it's not excessively more. *Again, I reload for the 40 with my own cast bullets, so I can make a box of those for about 3$! *If you want to get into reloading, I'd suggest buying a complete kit like this one from Midway

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=121744

Dies are extra. *I'd recommend always buying carbide because you can skip the case lubing steps. *Contamination with lube can kill your powder or primer.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=703076&t=11082005

Another route you can take is go online at your local Craigslist or Pennysaver and search under "reloading" *That's how I originally bought my casting equipment. *I got a Lyman lead furnace, molds, sizer, and accessories for only 80$. *Plus, you might meet someone whom can give you a lot of advice.

Good luck,
Michael

[Bruenor]

Hi Bruenor
Before anything else, could you please outline the Indiana gun laws that effect hunting. *I don't know anything about your state, so I don't want to give you advice you'll never use.


Here's the information directly from the 2007-2008 Hunting Guide.

Legal Firearms
Shotguns, handguns, rifles with pistol cartridges, muzzleloading long guns and muzzleloading handguns are legal during the firearms season. Only muzzleloading firearms are legal during the muzzleloader season.

Hunters may carry more than one type of legal firearm when hunting during the firearms season only. Shotguns must be 10-, 12-, 16- or 20-gauge or .410 bore loaded with slugs or saboted bullets. Rifled slug barrels are permitted. Combination rifle-shotguns are not allowed.

Muzzleloading firearms must be .44 caliber or larger loaded with a single bullet of at least .357 caliber. Saboted bullets are allowed, provided the bullet is .357 caliber or larger. A muzzleloading firearm must be loaded from the muzzle. Multiple-barrel muzzleloading long guns are allowed.
Rifles with pistol cartridges that fire a bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger; have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and have a maximum case length of 1.625 inches are legal to use only during the deer firearms season. Some cartridges legal for deer hunting include the 357 Magnum, 38-40 Winchester, 41 Magnum, 41 Special, 44 Magnum, 44 Special, 44-40 Winchester, 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 475 Linebaugh, 480 Ruger, 50 Action Express, and 500 S&W.

Legal Handguns for Deer Hunting
Handguns, other than muzzleloading, must have a barrel at least four inches long and must fire a bullet of .243-inch diameter or larger. The handgun cartridge case, without the bullet, must be at least 1.16 inches long. Full metal-jacketed bullets are not permitted. Handguns are not permitted on any military areas. Some types of handgun cartridges legal for deer hunting include 357 Magnum, 41 Magnum, 44 Magnum, 44 Special, 45 Colt, 45 Long Colt, 45 Winchester Magnum, 35 Remington and 357 Herrett.

Some illegal handgun cartridges for deer hunting are 38 Special, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Colt New Police, 38/200, 38 Long Colt, 38 Super, 38 ACP, 38 Colt Auto, 45 ACP, 45 Automatic and 45 Auto Rim. All 25/20, 32/20 and 30 carbine ammunition is prohibited also.

Muzzleloading handguns are allowed. The muzzleloading handgun must be single shot, .50 caliber or larger, loaded with bullets at least .44 caliber and have a barrel at least 12 inches long, measured from the base of the breech plug excluding tangs and other projections to the end of the barrel including the muzzle crown.

I looked at the presses that you pointed out. *They aren't as expensive as what I thought. *I imagine that if I reuse the brass, I'd be able to make bullets for my .44 pretty cheap, even if I don't cast my own. *Of course, someone once told me that when you reload you don't save any money, you just shoot a lot more. *;)


Here's a question. *I looked around online and found this kit

http://www.choiceaccessories.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=75533

It's the Lee Classic Loader Kit. *$18.99 and it comes in a small, convient package. *Now, I'm not thinking about this as a main reloading set-up, but what about as a back-up that I keep with my rifle? *My thought is that if I ever go on a long hunting trip, I could take that with me and reload wherever I have the components.

Have you heard of this kit, or have any thoughts about it?

[DM]

Here's a question. I looked around online and found this kit

http://www.choiceaccessories.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdI D=75533

It's the Lee Classic Loader Kit. $18.99 and it comes in a small, convient package. Now, I'm not thinking about this as a main reloading set-up, but what about as a back-up that I keep with my rifle? My thought is that if I ever go on a long hunting trip, I could take that with me and reload wherever I have the components.

Have you heard of this kit, or have any thoughts about it?


Those kits have been around just about forever... I have some of them from the 60's... They do work, but they will never replace a press and dies..

As for a long hunting trip, i'd just take more ammo along, rather than haul a Lee Loader + components around. I've spent a lot of time hunting in the bush, and i've yet to run out of ammo. I don't think i've ever taken more than 30 rounds of rifle ammo in, even on extended hunts.

DM

[DM]

Do you think that the .44 magnum lever action would work well for hunting deer? That's basically why I bought it.

Your 44 lever would make an excelent deer rifle, as long as you keep your shots at about 150 yards or less...

I took one of the biggest bucks i've ever harvested with my Ruger 44 semi auto carbine... I also have harvested moose, deer and other "food" with my S&W 44 mag. revolver...

It's really all about knowing your firearm and shooting it well...

DM

[kawalekm]

I have a Lee Loader myself in .44. But, I keep it only as an emergency backup at the cabin.

When I first got into shooting about 30 years ago I learned about reloading from a guy making 38spl with a Lee loader. I even helped make some of his ammunition. But, it's slow and tedious. When I first started reloading my own, I went out and bought an RCBS junior press. Less tedious, less work, less time, better quality ammunition. The only advantage the loader has is portability. But, as DM says, you can pack extra ammo. Another advantage of the .44Mag is that a whole box of 50 is very compact. You could easily carry 100 rounds in two pockets if you're out on an extended hike.

"I looked at the presses that you pointed out. They aren't as expensive as what I thought. I imagine that if I reuse the brass, I'd be able to make bullets for my .44 pretty cheap, even if I don't cast my own. Of course, someone once told me that when you reload you don't save any money, you just shoot a lot more."

Now this statement has a lot of truth in it! Over the years I've bought a lot of "toys" that make reloading faster, more precise, whatever. If you end up making it your hobby like I do, then you've just stepped over the edge of that slippery slope and can forget about saving money. But, if you don't go crazy about it you'll still save money. Saving the brass is important. In fact, I save even more money by picking up other people's brass at the range. I find a lot more 9mm and 38spl brass than .44Mag, but I do have some.

Your .44 lever will serve you well. Can you put a scope on a Puma? I have Marlin 1894's and I've put low power scopes on mine. Best thing you can do is get out to the range now and start practicing for hunting season!
Michael

[rAcErRicK]

I reloaded for a few years myself. Agreed, there is not a monumental savings, although, naturally, the more you shoot, the more you save. The thing I enjoyed the most was the pride in knowing that you have produced a quality product (hopefully), and accuracy can be nearly as good as you would like it to be. I was into the competition end as well as hunting, and if one really applies himself, research, sorting brass by weights, mfg., number of times reloaded, and condition, you can almost achieve perfection. Since every weapon has a personality of it's own, and likes one particular load better than another. It is a wonderful feeling to find the perfect load for your favorite weapon, and know that you can put round after round in nearly the same hole. Of course, powders, primers, projectiles, seating depths, and on and on. Hundreds of variables are possible, and all are either more or less accurate. It can be both an art, and a science, depending on what you prefer, and want to be able to do with said weapon. We have all seen people that could not hit a dumptruck at 100 yds, and at the same time, a precious few that could place 1 shot into the eye of a lifesize deer target at the same 100 yds.

Another factor is recoil, there is, depending on the cartrige, a wide range of desired recoil. Lighter projectiles v/s heavy. Light loads v/s heavy. Clean burning powder v/s dirty. Different projectile designs as well as weights all produce a different effect on the target, minimum expansion v/s maximum penitration, depending on what your desired target will be.

There is great satisfaction in knowing that you have done your homework, and that your weapon will perform as well as your ability allows it to, it will be as good, or as bad, as you make it.

Of course, the most important thing of all in reloading is safety. There is no substitute for the best manuals and recipies. People will offer all kinds of concoctions, but if it isn't in the book, don't use it. Shortcuts to safety are common, and can easily be shortcuts to death. There are many good books on reloading, some are very old, but very interesting reading.

One of the best, if not the best, is available on this very website. Massad Ayoob's opinions are respected the world over. Good luck and enjoy the fruits of your labor.