Evil black rifle. I want one.

[scubadachshund]

I really want an AR15. For varmints (coyote and smaller) when I move out to the farm. For defense in case of SHTF. For fun. And just because I want one.

I've been looking for a while and keep putting off buying one. I've decided that I'm going to get one within the next year (still saving up money). I've been looking at models from Rock River Arms, DPMS, and Bushmaster. From what I've read, all of these manufacturers have a quality product. I'm open to looking at other companies so if you're favorite isn't on here, please let me know.

The other thing that keeps me from buying is that there are so many different configurations that I don't know what to get. So far I've narrowed it down to 16" barrel, mid length handguard, Hogue grip, adjustable stock, either a flatop or removable carry handle, and fold down sites. I plan on mounting some type of optical sight on it. Either ACOG, Aimpoint, or one of the EOTECH holographic sights. What else should I be looking at?

Also, if you know any places in Houston or on the net that have good prices and good customer service, I would appreciate knowing about them.

Your insights and advice are appreciated.

SB

[Star1pup]

Better get it quick before the new congress takes over. ;)

[dannanchieftain]

I have 2 bushmasters a 16 inch with telestock and a 20 inch regular rifle. They are very well built and reliable. I dont have any of that high tech garbage on mine. factory peep sights get the job done @ 200 yds just fine, anything beyond that I'd rely on .30 caliber or larger. Not that I have anything against all those accessories they just aren't for me.

Bushmaster is a good choice you wont be disappointed.

just my 2 cents

[RangerRick]

Yep, got a 16" by Armalite with an adjustable butt & bayonet lug. If it don't have a pig sticker it ain't a real combat weapon. I did not go with a flat top mainly because in SHTF how long will batteries last, as long as SHTF? Plus, things have a bad habit of getting banged around - no worry with open sights. KISS.

Lots of fun to shoot but don't kid yourself, they are made to shoot bad guys repetedly. If you're into do-dads there are plently out there to blow your hard earned long green on. Me, I want a tool to do a job not a sexy toy.

Recommend a "basic" combat load at 17, 30 round mags and some spare parts that can be packed into the grip, some LSA and a issue cleaning kit - oh yea, maybe 3-4K rounds tucked away at the home cash.

Ranger Rick

[scubadachshund]

Thanks for the advice. *Went to the gun show this weekend. *Didn't find anything even though my wife kept pushing me to buy one. *(Gotta love that woman.) *

I do plan on keeping my first one fairly basic. *The only "upgrade" I plan on making is an optic sight but plan on having iron sights as a back up. *On my next one (and I already know there will be a next one), I'll probably do some fancy stuff on it.

Thanks again,

Mark

[Matthew]

I have the Bushmaster Patrolman's Carbine with removable carry handle. The only switches I've made is add a Phantom flash hider, an Israeli sling and an EO Tech. The EO Tech is pretty good, although I am partial to irons. As far as the optics go, I don't think there is a better one than EO Tech. One thing for sure is that the EO Tech is a lot faster acquisition for close in work and you can aim with both eyes open.

I have had no problems of any kind with the rifle. I love it. Bushmaster makes a great AR. Now, I am getting a Garand for Christmas, so I might have a new favorite!
;D

Can't go wrong with Bushmaster!

[LaunchPad]

Yep, got a 16" by Armalite with an adjustable butt & bayonet lug. *If it don't have a pig sticker it ain't a real combat weapon. *

Ranger Rick

pig sticker on an AR??????????- the first time you use ANY AR for sticking something or with ANY significant impact to the buttstock it becomes forever . . . . . useless. I've seriously learned several leasons about the AR having built MANY in the last few months from "the white" on up.

Fragile is an understatement when the butt stock cannot be missaligned even 1/16 of an inch for the bolt to clear and the weapon to chamber a round.

If the stock barrel does not bend the upper will certainly SPLIT from any sideways loading of any significance. (a non-floating barrel may lend it more strength) A cast aluminum component only goes easier ( i am using forged)- and there is WAY less material on the portion of the lower which the stock threads into to provide much, if any, laterial support.


of course- if it comes to sticking or a strike with the butt stock to stop an adversary it probably doesn't matter anyway if the weapon will function later or not. :o

Best just make good use of those 17 magazines while you melt down the barrel. :D

Of course that is only my opinion- i haven't stuck anyone yet or givin them a good whump arcoss the noggin- logic dictates it ain't worth it. ;)

[dannanchieftain]

LP I dont know where your getting your data on this.

In bayonet training Ive jammed both ends against training dummies made of plastic and old tires.

seen one run over by a humvee

used one in Iraq to beat my way through a boarded up window

seen them dropped,kicked over, and had heavy stuff such as rucksacks dropped on them

and more...

they all seemed to work fine afterwards.

They are not unbreakable as I have also seen many broken, I dug one out of the turret slipring on a bradley that was destroyed but any weapon would not have survived this.

I don't think they are as weak and flimsy as some make them out to be, but then again I have combat tested them.

[RangerRick]

While not a pleasant option, a combat weapon, especially an assault rifle has a bayonet for good reasons as the ultimate close in tool when it runs out of feed as the experiences of those with experience know. While the M-16/AR-15 doesn't have the reach of an Enfield it is an effective tool for an experienced hand.

Of course, the best way not to hear that nasty sound of the bayonet locking onto the lug is to have those 17 mags loaded and at hand which will only cause melt down of those barrels turned out by Matel.

Ranger Rick

[jim]

I've got to be the world's laziest rifleman. :D *I never carried more than nine 20 rd. mags at any given time, and sometimes less than that. But then, we weren't supposed to be doing any shooting either. No offense to folks that carry more.

jim

[dannanchieftain]

I carried my normal 7 30's when I was doin my thing but in the truck I had a 50 cal can with about 5 more and some tools/cleaning stuff for the just in case times.
Not that I ever felt I'd need more ammo.

As much as I like the M16/AR15 I have to admit they can at times be prone to Magazine failures and stoppages due to damaged/dirty mags.

I don't believe even 17 would melt the modern heavy barrels with controlled semi auto fire, or even bust fire.

I made the gas tube glow on one years ago on an A1 but that was doing cyclic fire all on full auto 10 mags with only stopping long enough to change mags.

Didnt melt anything but it got too hot to hold on to
and the A1 barrels were significantly lighter and thinner than the modern A2 and up barrels.

[LaunchPad]

Well, i guess i am an idiot. Would not be the first time and hopefully i'll be around long enough to be one again. ;D i can live with it, i suppose. . . . what other choice is there. ? ;)

Where did i get my info?

I see Dan that you are Army. Ok- i grew up Army (and wishing i was now- another story) but have not been in an Army armory since 82-83. Back then the rifles were very different than now- so i ASS_U_ME that they got replacements since. For one- you would never see an issue adjustable stock back then. Barrel profiles were different as well. Do dads for the grip- pur-ty much non- existant.

I am now Air Force with VERY similar periods of service you list in your signature line. Officer too now so not much playing with quality weapons at work anymore. Everyone should know the AF gets the left over junk weapons and we are not expected to actually have to shoot them- right????? ;D Even our junk guns (junk of the junk?), the majority have adjustable stocks now-a-days. i've been in our armory too many times to count in the last few months- but officers usually get handed a 9 mil in a tacky flap holster. Rarely, we get to tote the long guns or even qualify on them. I am a rare case.

Doing what the different services do- i always suspected that of them the Marines and then the Army were VASTLY better trained with their weapons.

Quick without looking it up:

What is the rate of fire for the "M4"?

Now here is a tough one:

What is the SUSTAINED rate of fire for the same weapon?

Well, training differs i guess. the AF being all booky and nerdy. ;D i confess, you got me- guilty on both. nerdy and booky. ::)

these will give you the answers:

http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/manual_olyarms_ar.pdf

or here:

http://aaotracker.com/armyops.php?action=weapons

But to save time. ROF= 800 per minute full or 45 in semi or 90 in burst. SROF= 12- 15 per minute

Check out the warning on page two of the first one though.

Firing 140 rounds, rapidly and continuously, will raise the temperature of the barrel
to the COOKOFF POINT. At this temperature, any live round remaining in the
chamber for any reason may detonate (cookoff) in as short a period as 10 seconds.

That is what? less than 5 30 round mags? 12 More to go. Consider what the sustained rate is too. Heck just bump it up to 30 rounds a minute- that's a leasurely 2 seconds a shot.

They tell us this in the AF when we train i think to makes us "take our time" when at the range- however i HAVE seen it happen.

I am also a card carrying Mechanical Engineer with a minor in Materials. Can anyone tell me what happens to hardened Steel when it is heated and allowed to cool slowly? In all but some of the rarest forms of steel it gets softer. (heck, i just did that a month ago with 3/8 armor plate- now 223 goes right on through- another story).

The wear properties of mild steel (or a softend barrel)- what do you think happens to them? wears faster. seen any smooth bores in your armory? i hope not- else your techs are not keeping up on their maint. The AF guns have some pur-ty wasted guns- all but smooth bore on some i have seen. OY!

i'll stand by barrel melt- even in the AF i've seen it. it doesn't have to turn molten and droop to the ground like in a cartoon.

If you don't believe me i can remain a nerdy, booky, idiot for a while longer. ;D

more on stocks after dinner

[dannanchieftain]

LP, I wasn't really trying to flame you if it came out like that I am sorry. And for the record I never said you were an Idiot.

I was merely relaying to you some of my experiences with the rifle and giving my opinion that they are not as flimsy as they are made out to be.

I am no engineer and I know what the books say but what i have seen in the field is a different story.

Maintaining the sustained rate of fire is quite easily done if one is making accurate aimed shots which is what one should do with a rifle or carbine. Olympic Arms is telling you what they do in their manual to limit liability. The army operators manual for the m16a2 doesn't say anything about the 140 rounds (TM 9-1005-319-10) It does warn of the possiblity of a cook off but it gives no data on the actual number of rounds. FM 23-9 M16 rifle marksmanship basically tells you that sustained rate is best and that rapid or cyclic fire should only be used for short periods of time. I myself think that anything above the sustained rate is a waste of ammo. Unless you are some nerves of steel super commando most people wont be able to acquire and accurately hit targets in less than 2 seconds in a combat environment. The Army standard is 3-5 seconds at short to medium range, I dont remember what the long range one is but its a bit more. Some will balk at that statement but understand I am not talking about at the range I am saying under battle conditions where your wearing all your gear,trembling from fear and sweating in 110 degree plus heat.

I realized a few years ago that the Air Force doesn't replace their weapons as often as the Army When I got my wife an AR. She was in the Air force and had used the M16. When we were out at the range she pointed to the forward assist and said "whats this for?" I explained and she said the ones she had in the Air Force didnt have that.Well that would mean her rifle would have had to been an M16 as the A1 had the forward assist If I remember correctly. I was kind of amazed at this since she was in from 86-94 and the A1's had been around since the early 70's.

The rifle has always been good to me, but i kept it clean and maintained religously. I never had a serious problem with one and i have put them through a fair share of abuse.

I do seem to remember my unit having a few Rifles in Iraq that suddenly lost thier Zero and were unable to be Zeroed again even by our most competent marksmen It was thought at the time that they may have been overheated at one point and through combat abuse the barrels warped. This was also speculation due to one of them seeming to have a tight spot in it when a cleaning rod with brush was pushed down the barrel. Could have been a factory defect but I am not sure. The funny thing is they all passed gauging. These were isolated incidents,as most in my unit had no major problems.

[RangerRick]

LP,

Yep, hope I didn't step on any toes. To me and most combat types the bayonet is an unwanted but necessary tool hopefully never used. As to the 17 mags as a basic load I suppose if you were back as some nice comfey firebase or hq with with the REMFs and a nice ammo magazine nearby the hazard of running low wouldn't be a critical issue. If you happen to be workin a squad in the Asha or Mogadishu or Kuwait and way the hell out on a limb 17 mags isn't too much to bare.

:)

Rick

[jim]

Never been in any of those places, but I can see why one would want to carry that much ammo and more from their reputation.

jim

[Matthew]

You guys know my theory, but that won't stop me from repeating it. ;)

If the AR system was really so bad and the 5.56 round really so wimpy, neither would have been adopted by dozens of other countries. The modern AR works well.

[dannanchieftain]

I concur its one of, if not, the most popular rifles on the market today. Tons of other model rifles are also chambered in .223/5.56 If they were so bad then I wouldn't think they would sell so well.

All the bad attitude about the rifle and caliber is a legacy of the problems encountered with the early models in the 1960's. I believe we are way beyond with the more modern ones.

[RangerRick]

The military channel did a special on the top 10 combat rifles a month or two back and the M16 finished #2 behind the AK-47. Some of the catogories of the competition were cost, longevity, reliability, rate of fire, bullet ability and accuracy.

Rick

[LaunchPad]

LP, I wasn't really trying to flame you if it came out like that I am sorry. And for the record I never said you were an Idiot.




No man, I actually owe you and Rick an apology each. I busted on you both pretty good in looking back at my posts. I am sorry for that as I did really intend to be more humorous than it came across. And I don’t really poke at people in a humorous way unless I at least like them. For being a long ear equine I apologize.

I am also NOT saying there is anything inherently wrong with the AR. Heck, I am currently building several from pretty much scratch- (there is a thread some where in here with the process- needing more updates)

I just happen to not like any of the AF weapons of that type- for some aforementioned reasons (and then some) in my ill-ly conceived post.

Besides coming across totally wrong- I was trying to point out some real short comings of that particular gun that I have seen the results of, heard numerous cases of, or something much closer to home, that I have discovered in the intimate relationship I’ve had over the last few months building them from nothing. (Great educational experience BTW though an expensive one- most shooters will never know any gun as well as I now know the AR)

Barrel melt is indeed a real problem- even more so for inexperienced shooters. I have one student I work with quite regularly that feels if he can’t hit it on slow fire he must shoot faster- too much Hollywood I guess? He also likes the macho “feel” and were he not a good friend I would tell him I can not help him anymore if he insists on keeping it up.

My wife on the other hand, can shoot from 100 yards and engage multiple targets as fast as one can pull the trigger and so far I don’t think I’ve witnessed her miss one (she’s never been in combat though). Target size is the bottom profile of a soda can- For her I spared no expense getting her a HEAVY barrel to take the heat a little better and buy her smaller magazines- and since she LOVES to throw rounds down range, the rifle I got her to “play with” is a Ruger 10/22. Even though I built her and our boys AR’s no way I am letting her sling lead that fast with a standard profile at $0.22++ a round for pleasure. :D

The problem you mentioned Dan- could indeed be a case of barrel melt. High alt and Middle Eastern temps sure don’t help the problem much (we live in Colorado above 6000 ft).

I had promised you guys some stuff on the stock issues but having problems finding actual pictures of the things I’ve seen. Bear with me and I’ll get it on here.

One thing in particular that Rick mentioned was the use of an adjustable stock. Those in my experience are the worst culprits for a stock problem. At full extension that buffer tube is VERY vulnerable to denting and bending and it also happens to put the most stress on the rear portion of the lower where the tube threads into. Tolerances are very close in this area- not so much against the buffer but more so for the bolt which must be able to clear the inside of the buffer tube for a round to be chambered.  I ruined one lower by having the threads off by less than 1/8 of a thread (lopsided) when I built it. The eye cannot even see the error but it is enough to put the inside of the buffer tube solidly in contact with the buffer at just about full travel. One good butt stroke can do the same thing for ya.

The adjustable stock also makes use of the WEAKEST portion of the AR lower rather than the whole rear face of the lower like the full fixed stock does. The little treaded portion there has a very tiny cross sectional area. I have seen them broken off 90 degrees to the threads and when that happens there is no fix for the gun. I myself use a CAA 6 position stock (picture is on the building thread- “today is the day”) but I have not seen this problem with a fixed stock- probably because those do a much better job of distributing the load across some of the more solid face of the rear of the lower?

The AR is just not really built for that kind of combat- a M14 is so much better equipped- or most of the WWI or WWII guns (for good reasons). And with today’s body armor the bayonet is really less useful than it ever was. I personally, would like something a little closer to a straight razor for use on all the very lethal and very vulnerable places body armor could never protect like: the inside of the thigh, or under the armpit- those places a bayonet simply does not have the precision, sharpness, flexibility of either hand, or speed to attack.

I also use a single point harness- clipped to my body armor on the RT shoulder. To get the darn thing loose to deliver a butt stroke or poke with a bayonet just ain’t going to happen fast enough to make that practical- but it sure does help with keeping my weapon close and ready for accurate fire but at the same time free both hand for what us AF pukes do most of the day- paperwork. :D

[LaunchPad]

if you want some of the new style optics (EOTECH) but concerned about batteries in a SHTF.

check out the Trijicon Reflex Sight RX01NSN.

No more batteries- but all the benefits and then some.

[Matthew]

About the optics. I don't know why everyone worries about batteries. Hell, we rely on them in smoke detectors with no problems. Granted, I am biased since I own an EOTech, but I just throw an extra set of AA's in the pistol grip.

[kyhillbilly]

i have several different assualt rifles and i prefer the ars myself, have had the bushmaster before right now i have a colt and an eagles arm i too carry the combat load 210- rounds dont think i need more than that unless there will be no resupply peroid, think you should bury some extra rounds with some extra magazines at different locations for resupply dont have the mags loaded as the springs will weaken.anyone who thinks they need more rounds is living in a fantasy world by the time you expell all your rounds you will have cooped your enemy or you will be dead the best fight is the one you can avoid and engagements at longer distances should be avoided . as a survivor its not about winning battles or taking property its about staying alive. not trying to make anyone mad just trying to be real.

[feralgun]

scubbadachs, check this web site out for info on AR-15's, It is the preferred Main Battle Rifle of the Militia and we have much information on it. The guy that goes by the handle of Tire Iron, has been there, done that, and got the T-shirt, he has a couple of threads on the AR and what makes a good one. Again, our configurations are mostly geared for a firearm for when SHTF, but in your description it is close to what most of us use. The sites are: www.modernminuteman.net and
www.oregonwatchmen.org . I hope this helps in your search for the AR you want to have, anything we can do to help at those other sites, just ask.