Not just a tractor question

[cry_freedom]

Good morning folks - So the seed has been sown and the wheels have started turning ... and we are going to be in the market in short measure for a small farm ... somewhere in the region of 40 to at most 80 acres. So now comes the question ... I'm trying to work out a budget for machinery - not just a tractor but the additional equipment for getting work done .... which if I left it at that would be like asking how long a piece of string I need ;)

So here goes.

We are going to have at least 5 acres of pasture - we'll be making hay bales (definitely need a square baler) - but do I need a swather/rower as well?

8 acres each of wheat and barley (at least) we've also thought about planting an acre of sweetcorn and perhaps a few acres of field corn. I don't want to invest in a combine - any suggestions? Or if I have to get one perhaps a tow behind?

We'll be keeping some livestock and a few horses - so the tractor will be doing double duty probably pulling a trailer - perhaps a manure spreader etc.

I spent a few years on my Uncles farm in South Dakota so I'm not too bad at operating the stuff - like a bike you tend not to forget too much - having said that this was 20+ years ago and some of the stuff they were operating was old then :D

Any advice would be gratefully taken - I had thought of a Deere 3010/4010/4020 - too much? too little?

Thanks in advance

[Anon001]

CryFreedom,

It will be hard to give much advice based on what little you give. I'm curious why you would be wanting to plant "8" acres of wheat and barley, and one acre of sweet corn? Is the sweet corn for you to preserve for family or is it for feed? If you are raising corn for feed, you don't want sweet corn. It is too expensive. You will want what most call "field corn" which is also good eating for people. If the wheat and barley is for animal cosumption, consider that is has less nutrients and less "energy" for livestock than corn. Also, if it is for family consumption, one acre of wheat is more than plenty considering you should get 30 to 40 bushel per acre.

So, if it was for feed, I would put the entire 9 acres to field corn.

If it is for the house, I would plant one acre to wheat and then put the other 8 acres in as hay in addition to the 5 acres.

The other problem is not knowing what part of the country you are in... how dry or how wet your climate may be or what types of grasses for hay work best in your area.

As far as the equipment. You could easily use a JD 4020, but they are not cheap. And, they can be overkill on a small square baler. I have a 160 acres here, and 3 - 40 acre places. I have a couple WD's. One is a straight WD and one is a WD-45. I use the WD-45 to pull the swather, and then I use an AC 190XT to pull the round baler. The 45 will pull my square baler. I usually bale most everything in round bales. Easier to handle, less work, they don't have to be stored in a barn, etc. A bale spear on a tractor or a bale spear in the back of a pickup is all you need to move them around.

As to the equipment. You can buy a sickle mower and a rake or a swather. After the hay is mowed and after it is cured, it has to be raked into windrows before baling. However, a swather is supposed to cut the time in half. Theoretically, when you swath, the swather, will press the grasses and windrow it, making one one trip around the hay instead of two. Then all you have to do is bale it. However, experience has shown me that there are times that after swathing, the hay still has to be raked to allow it do finish curing. When you swath it and it is sitting in a windrow, it takes longer to dry and cure than if it is mowed and left to cure before raking.

In our area, the humidity sometimes gets high enough that it takes longer to cure mowed hay.

Another thing to consider is the types of hay. If it is alfalfa, you cannot swath if it is being used for horses. The reason is that alfalfa can easily have blister beetles. If the alfalfa is swathed, it crushes the beetles and they are then baled into the hay. The blister beetle is bad news for horses. However, if the alfalfa is mowed and left to cure, the beetles leave the alfalfa before it is raked and baled.

There are many types of tractors that will pull a square baler that would cost anywhere from $1,000 on up. However, I don't think you can get a 4020 in good condition for less than $15,000... But, most will be in the $20K to $35K price range.

Also, buying a combine for such a small amount of corn will never pay for itself. You would be better off paying a neighbor to come in to shell the corn with their combine.

You can do the same with hay at first, too. You could buy the equipment to to the mowing or the baling and hire the other done until you get enough equipment.

Good luck,
Paul

[countrydon]

I would attend farm equip auctions in the area you are planning to settle. Look at prices and equipment condition. Also the prevalence of certain makes of equipment in your area is important. If you are buying well used equipment it is nice to be able to buy "parts" equipment for when you have break downs.

Hay- look for a 6 or 7 foot pto sickle mower. Pay attention to how it attaches to the tractor. Some require custom mounts. Mower: $100-200 Pull behind rakes work well for a small operation. Rake: $100 I would probably suggest paying someone to bale your hay until you can find a very good well maintained baler at a price you like. Balers that are out of time or don't hold their timing can be very frustrating. A good used baler $3500 - 5000

You could probably find a neighbor to combine your wheat and barley, but he will do yours after he has finished with his and sometimes a few days can really degrade grain quality. Ab pull behind combine would be great but i haven't seen one at auction for 30 years in my area. They may be common in yours.

A 16 foot utility flat bed trailor is a neccessity and can be used for a multitude of task from hay hauling to hauling home equipment bought at auction. By building attachable sides you can haul grain or livestock. Trailor- $650-$1000

Not sure you will need a manure spreader unless you plan to confine stock to small pens for extended periods. Easier to let the stock spread themselves.

I have a 4020 on 120 acres and it is certaqinly more tractor than i need however they tned to be very durable and parts are widely available. Make sure the pto works well as the tractor has to be split apart to replace pto clutch. Spend extra and get a tractor with a front end loader already attached. Fitting a loader to an older tractor even if it came from the same model can be a challenge. 4020 - $6000 to 10,000.

Planter for wheat and barley 12 to 14 ft $300-500
A small acreage you will probably plow- $300-500
Springtooh- $100. Disc $400. These are the tillage implements used in my area. They may have other practices where you are. No-till sounds good but depends way too much on herbicides.

A lot of what you buy may not have been used in years due to changes in farming practices and the switch to mega-farms. Pay extra for a tractor, baler and planters that are clean, wth only superficial rust and have been kept in a shed. If they look good the previous owner probably maintained them. The tillage equipment, rake and mower could set outside for years and still have many years of service left in them.

I hope this is helpful.

Don

[cinok]

I am by no means an expert or even closer to being a farmer but I have had equipment in the past. Paul makes a good point about hiring someone to bale and bring in the corn. If this is your first year and you haven't been in farming for a while this time could be well spent looking for good used equipment instead of buying because you need it now. I don't know if you have a large pile of cash laying around or if plan on financing it. I can say from experience that equipment will break at the worst time and you do need to have cash and resources to fix it when it does break. I would also make sure that your welding and repair skills are up to par so you can repair the equipment when it does (and it will) break. If you are buying used equipment it is always a good idea to have someone who is familiar with the equipment to give this a good once over. Also do have have someplace to store and work on the equipment and the tools to make the repairs. If you take this first season and prep it may payoff tenfold in the long run.

[cry_freedom]

CryFreedom,

It will be hard to give much advice based on what little you give. *I'm curious why you would be wanting to plant "8" acres of wheat and barley, and one acre of sweet corn? *Is the sweet corn for you to preserve for family or is it for feed? *If you are raising corn for feed, you don't want sweet corn. *It is too expensive. *You will want what most call "field corn" which is also good eating for people. *If the wheat and barley is for animal cosumption, consider that is has less nutrients and less "energy" for livestock than corn. *Also, if it is for family consumption, one acre of wheat is more than plenty considering you should get 30 to 40 bushel per acre.

So, if it was for feed, I would put the entire 9 acres to field corn. *

If it is for the house, I would plant one acre to wheat and then put the other 8 acres in as hay in addition to the 5 acres.

The other problem is not knowing what part of the country you are in... how dry or how wet your climate may be or what types of grasses for hay work best in your area.

As far as the equipment. *You could easily use a JD 4020, but they are not cheap. *And, they can be overkill on a small square baler. *I have a 160 acres here, and 3 - 40 acre places. *I have a couple WD's. *One is a straight WD and one is a WD-45. *I use the WD-45 to pull the swather, and then I use an AC 190XT to pull the round baler. *The 45 will pull my square baler. *I usually bale most everything in round bales. *Easier to handle, less work, they don't have to be stored in a barn, etc. *A bale spear on a tractor or a bale spear in the back of a pickup is all you need to move them around.

As to the equipment. You can buy a sickle mower and a rake or a swather. *After the hay is mowed and after it is cured, it has to be raked into windrows before baling. *However, a swather is supposed to cut the time in half. *Theoretically, when you swath, the swather, will press the grasses and windrow it, making one one trip around the hay instead of two. *Then all you have to do is bale it. *However, experience has shown me that there are times that after swathing, the hay still has to be raked to allow it do finish curing. *When you swath it and it is sitting in a windrow, it takes longer to dry and cure than if it is mowed and left to cure before raking. *

In our area, the humidity sometimes gets high enough that it takes longer to cure mowed hay.

Another thing to consider is the types of hay. *If it is alfalfa, you cannot swath if it is being used for horses. *The reason is that alfalfa can easily have blister beetles. *If the alfalfa is swathed, it crushes the beetles and they are then baled into the hay. *The blister beetle is bad news for horses. *However, if the alfalfa is mowed and left to cure, the beetles leave the alfalfa before it is raked and baled.

There are many types of tractors that will pull a square baler that would cost anywhere from $1,000 *on up. *However, I don't think you can get a 4020 in good condition for less than $15,000... *But, most will be in the $20K to $35K price range.

Also, buying a combine for such a small amount of corn will never pay for itself. *You would be better off paying a neighbor to come in to shell the corn with their combine.

You can do the same with hay at first, too. * You could buy the equipment to to the mowing or the baling and hire the other done until you get enough equipment.

Good luck,
Paul


Thanks Paul - we are looking in Texas, Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma and Arkansas. These areas seem to have the best value for money when it comes to small farms. Everything up in our neck of the woods is way too much money.

As far as the amount of crops - That will ultimately depend on how much land we can get and how much we can realistically farm.

We're looking at putting in field corn for feed but also a crop of sweetcorn for the house. The wheat and barley will mostly be for the house - but some will also end up as feed as well.

I hadn't looked at round balers - mostly because 20 odd years ago they were way more $'s than square balers - that seems to have changed quite a bit now :)

I hadn't even considered alfalfa for hay ... but thanks for the heads up. That's why I come back here day after day ... I learn so much. I was always told that you should never stop learning ...

Thanks again Paul.

[countrydon]

You can also check fastline.com for equipment prices near certain zip codes. Most listing are from dealers so prices are higher than auction but equipment may come with limited warrenty.

All the areas you mentioned are good. I'm in northern oklahoma. Now is a great time to buy land as prices have lowered with the economic downturn

Don

[cry_freedom]

I would attend farm equip auctions in the area you are planning to settle. *Look at prices and equipment condition. *Also the prevalence of certain makes of equipment in your area is important. *If you are buying well used equipment it is nice to be able to buy "parts" equipment for when you have break downs.

Hay- look for a 6 or 7 foot *pto sickle mower. * Pay attention to how it attaches to the tractor. *Some require custom mounts. Mower: $100-200 * Pull behind rakes work well for a small operation. *Rake: $100 *I would probably suggest paying someone to bale your hay until you can find a very good well maintained baler at a price you like. * Balers that are out of time or don't hold their timing can be very frustrating. *A good used baler $3500 - 5000

You could probably find a neighbor to combine your wheat and barley, *but he will do yours after he has finished with his and sometimes a few days can really degrade grain quality. *Ab pull behind combine would be great but i haven't seen one at auction for 30 years in my area. *They may be common in yours.

A 16 foot utility flat bed trailor is a neccessity and can be used for a multitude of task from hay hauling to hauling home equipment bought at auction. * By building attachable sides you can haul grain or livestock. * Trailor- $650-$1000

Not sure you will need a manure spreader unless you plan to confine stock to small pens for extended periods. *Easier to let the stock spread themselves.

I have a 4020 on 120 acres and it is certaqinly more tractor than i need however they tned to be very durable and parts are widely available. *Make sure the pto works well as the tractor has to be split apart to replace pto clutch. *Spend extra and get a tractor with a front end loader already attached. * Fitting a loader to an older tractor even if it came from the same model can be a challenge. *4020 - $6000 to 10,000.

Planter for wheat and barley 12 to 14 ft *$300-500
A small acreage you will probably plow- *$300-500
Springtooh- $100. * Disc $400. * These are the tillage implements used in my area. * They may have other practices where you are. *No-till sounds good but depends way too much on herbicides.

A lot of what you buy may not have been used in years due to changes in farming practices and the switch to mega-farms. *Pay extra for a tractor, baler and planters that are clean, *wth only superficial rust and have been kept in a shed. *If they look good the previous owner probably maintained them. * *The tillage equipment, rake and mower could set outside for years and still have many years of service left in them. *

I hope this is helpful.

Don * * * *

Thanks Don - extremely helpful. I have alot to learn :)

My uncles swore by John Deere stuff so I guess it rubbed off on me as well. I've been scouring tractor house looking for stuff - but of course it's pretty difficult to gauge how good things are or aren't by pictures.

[cry_freedom]

I am by no means an expert or even closer to being a farmer but I have had equipment in the past. Paul makes a good point about hiring someone to bale and bring in the corn. If this is your first year and you haven't been in farming for a while this time could be well spent looking for *good used equipment instead of buying because you need it now. I don't know if you have a large pile of cash laying around or if plan on financing it. I can say from experience that equipment will break at the worst time and you do need to have cash and resources to fix it when it does break. I would also make sure that your welding and repair skills are up to par so you can repair the equipment when it does (and it will) break. If you are buying used equipment it is always a good idea to have someone who is familiar with the equipment to give this a good once over. Also do have have someplace to store and work on the equipment and the tools to make the repairs. If you take this first season and prep it may payoff tenfold in the long run.

Thanks for the advice - I think based on all I've heard so far - I'll need to make friends fast once we've found a farm.

I'm definitely not rich so my alternatives will be finance (not my first choice) or buying used and doing the repairs myself. Some I can do with no problems ... other repairs may take a repair manual and learning even more expletives ;D

For the first few years at least I'm planning on maintaining my current job in some capacity and then trying to get a different gig at a rural telephone company or ISP. By trade I'm a systems engineer so hopefully I can find something.

[DM]

The origional question can't be answered until you have the land and know what soil and climate you have...

Recomending a sickle mower? You would never get hay to dry here using a sickle mower, they are just about usless here for haying...

A guy that never farmed buying a used cheaper baler?? Do you think he will figure out why it's not tieing? Or out of time?

All i can say is, spend some money on a newer better tractor, and try to get neighbors to custom bale, custom combine ect... You can buy the tools you need "later" as you have more money.

A rotavator (industrial "field" tiller) will replace the plow, disc, and many other tillage tools on a small place like your talking about and give you better tillage with less compaction... It will also make you some side money doing gardens ect. for others too.

Sooo, we are back to needing to know what the soil and climate will be...

DM

[cinok]

I live in Eastern OK land values are rock bottom compared to your neck of the woods I know around Tulsa and OKC you can be in pasture land 30 min after leaving work. We have a lower then average unemployment rate and the pay scale scale is lower but according to a living expense website(that i cant find right now) Its on of the states with the lowest expense and bang for your buck. The support Ag lifestyles it is easy to get tax permit even if you only have a couple of acres. OK is the a mojor palyer in the airline industry on both the tech side and the design. We are alsohome to alot of the airlines computer hubs.

[Anon001]

Thanks Paul - we are looking in Texas, Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma and Arkansas. *These areas seem to have the best value for money when it comes to small farms.
I'm in NE Kansas.... hills, timbers, creeks, springs,etc. Land is selling for a lot less than it was a year ago. *Back 3 or 4 weeks ago I went to a farm sale. *It was 80 acres with an old 2 story farm house with 4 bedrooms, living room, dining room, den, mud porch, etc., barn, 2 - one car garages,hog shed, a chicken house, and a rock cellar in great shape. *It was a farm auction and brought a total of $105,500. *It had some timber for firewood, two ponds, about 30 acres of brome hay and the remainder in pasture. *I would have been good farmable ground as well.

In Kansas, property taxes on ag land aren't bad. *My taxes on this 160 run just under $500 for the year. *Insurance on it is around $100 per year. *

As far as the amount of crops - That will ultimately depend on how much land we can get and how much we can realistically farm.
I would determine how much you can spend. *Are you wanting land with a house already on it or are you willing to live in a camping trailer or tent while you build? *If you buy raw land, you can get it for much less and build your own. *I build my own cabin for less than $5,000 and that includes almost $2,000 for my small solar system.

We're looking at putting in field corn for feed but also a crop of sweetcorn for the house. *The wheat and barley will mostly be for the house - but some will also end up as feed as well.
I don't know how much corn you thing you will need for the house, but you can produce more than you want to can or freeze in a small space. *However, fr livestock feed it would take much more than just one acre.

For livestock needs consider this.... Wheat: *You can expect a 30 bushel average per acre. *Corn: *Has an average yield of 120 bushel per acre. *

In this area wheat is planted at 60 to 75 pounds per acre. * Corn is planted at about 20 to 24 pounds per acre. *So, you can do the math of about $15.00 per acre of seed wheat and an average yield of 30 bushel compard to $60.00 per acre of corn and 120 bushel average. *Corn is much more costly, but for winter feeding with livestock, the wheat isn't going to do much for you. *For example, corn provides much more energy than wheat. *The only time wheat is used in feeds in this part of the country is in "chicken scratch". *Barley is basically not grown from here south. *

Also consider the area. *In this area, crops are not irrigated because we get plenty rainfall per year. *We average about 42" per year. *But the further south you go, the less the rainfall and some areas you will be looking at the expense of irrigating crops. *Our family farm in Texas is rented by my brother. *He spends several thousand dollars per month to irrigate. *It works out to almost $75 per acre per month to irrigate for him.

I hadn't looked at round balers - mostly because 20 odd years ago they were way more $'s than square balers - that seems to have changed quite a bit now
I bought a New Holland square baler last fall for $1700 that looks almost brand new. *It was owned by an older farmer that died. *He was a big operator and this baler had very little wear. *He obviously didn't use it much and always kept it shedded.

Some of the items that prices were quoted on vary a great deal. *The last mower I saw sell about 2 weeks ago was at $300 when I walked away and it wasn't in very good shape. *My last rake was $100. * My point being that prices vary a great deal by location.

I wouldn't even consider equipment until you decide on land for several reasons. *The location, soil types, terrain, availbility of service and parts, etc. *Also, don't forget that there is the concept of "upgrading". *I don't believe in debt of any kind. *I was always taught that if you can't pay cash, you can't afford it. *However, I realize that with land and houses that is a different case for most people. *If you buy a small utility tractor that is older but in good shape that would work well for you for a couple years, then you can always sell it and buy up. *Those little old tractors hold their value better than a new one seems to.

There are a couple other things to consider. *You stated that you want 40 to 80 acres. *Most "banks" require much larger down payments on farms over a certain acreage than just houses or small acreages. *Farm Credit (the old Land Bank) requires between 20 and 30percent for a down payment. *Some credit unions won't even loan money on anything over 39 acres (here). *

The banks here right now are loaning on farm ground, improved and unimproved, with a 30 year amortization at 4.5%+ with a 3 year balloon. *One bank I talked to is requiring 3 year variable rates starting at 4% with a 6% cap. *So, you really have to shop the banks and such.

I bought this 160 unimproved and lived in camping trailer while I started my cabin. *

If you wish to talk more about land, prices, etc in this area, send me a pm and I can give you realtors, auctioneers, etc to talk to or look at online... or other items specific to NE Kansas.

Sorry to ramble on so long.....

Good luck.
Paul
P.S. *I'm not going to check for typos. *I'm tired and it's late. lol