Wild Animals I have known

[Toad_Sticker]

I will be starting it today at lunch.
Should be a fast read.
Anyone else started it yet?
TS

[Toad_Sticker]

;D LOL I have the McGraw Hill childrens version that my G'ma gave me 25 years ago.
Its a pretty cheesey read.
I will have to look at the library for and adult version.
TS

[DonnaKay]

I'm going to the Library today to see if they have it.

Donna

[DonnaKay]

:'( :'( :'(WHAAAAAA!!!

My library doesn't have this book :'( :'(

Guess I won't be joining in on this discussion but I will read all of it!!

Toad Sticker......you're up for the next selection.

Donna

[Toad_Sticker]

Here ya go DonnaKay free ebook
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/3031
TS

[billy_goat_gruff]

TS, ya beat me to the punch!!! * :D

I did mention that I identified a bit with the calculating folks in A Week in Winter, didn't I? I did because I wanted to introduce a site to the crew using the book club. One of the places Sam the Kid has to go to get reading material for homeschool is the Baldwin Project. It has a bunch of the children's classics, such as Wild Animals I have Known and includes pictures. Gutenburg is also a great place to go. I think they have a better selection and more books since Baldwin is strictly children's classics, but don't know if they have the pictures for online reading.

A link to the Baldwin Project site:
http://www.mainlesson.com/main/displayfeature.php

A link to Wild Animals I have Known:
http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=seton&book=wild&story=_contents

Don't forget to read the Front Matter above the index. It will tell you about the book and stories...

First short story is Lobo, King of the Carrumpah, the story of a king wolf who ruled a part of New Mexico back just before the turn of the 20th century.

This is a guy's book (no comments please about the difference in men and boys being the price of their toys, btw, cause it may be more true than not! *;) ) so everyone can relax and enjoy. The first "guy book" is up! I personally am having a hard time waiting for Toad Sticker's name to be called - old Heinlein... ahhhh!!! But he may have something even better!

What I'd like to know after you read about Lobo is if you think Lobo was truly self-reliant and the rewards he reaped for that "self-reliance", be they positive rewards or negative rewards. Also, Lobo was a king, i.e., a tyrant, so I'm also interested in what you think made him a good tyrant or a bad one.

I'll post my thought about Lobo Wednesday or Thursday, no later than Friday, and then take up the story about Silverspot, a crow with a different leadership style. Till then, feel free to cuss and discuss. :D

Should you finish with Lobo early and not want to take up the story about Silverspot, well, the Baldwin Project also has The Blue Fairy Book with the story of Aladdin and his lamp, or Jack London's The Call of the Wild to pass time with.

The Baldwin site also has some history stuff, such as Heroes Every Child Should Know, but that is a lot like school and history and other yucky stuff according to some. *;) *Of course, he was talking about Perseus and Hercules for a week after being "made" to read about them... *;) * ;D

[Toad_Sticker]

from what I read on your link it is the same book as the one I have.
Is there a childrens version and an adult version or are they the same?
TS

[billy_goat_gruff]

TS, there is just one. It is a children's classic.

I am planning on reading it online and I like the pictures that show up in the online version of Baldwin. The page numbers in the middle of the text are disconcerting though. Sometimes, downloading is problematic for me so don't know if the pictures come through in the download version at the Gutenburg project.

Seton was amongst the ones setting up boy's groups, and he and Baden-Powell were associates. Baden-Powell was a shaker and mover in the Boy Scouts, my understanding. Here is the link to where I was reading:
http://www.troop97.net/bshb_ed0.htm

Raising boys is different, and some of the ladies seemed to be wondering what kind of books they would have to read with us backwoods-type guys in here... *:D * *;D

Of course, I could be wrong about the ladies and their wonderings... *;)

Edit (being ornery like boys can be...) I thought Wild Animals would be a nice lead in to something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Guide-Man-Powered-Bullets-Bullet-Bows/dp/0811701565/sr=1-1/qid=1160406713/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-7882149-7291130?ie=UTF8&s=books

JUST KIDDING, MYR, Donna, pinetree! Wouldn't do that to you, but would tease you about it. ;)

[Toad_Sticker]

I have about 3 or 4 pages left to read.......
As far as Lobo goes I think a modern trapper would of caught him easily........All the things they tried are things that smart critters would pick up on .
I could tell it was written early last century techniques have changed a lot.
I have never seen a rabbit swim either.
TS

[billy_goat_gruff]

Modern technology is wonderful. Sometimes I wonder though if people aren't allowing it to define them more than they should. Don't know. Think I read about kid's thumbs now being the most developed digit, and the author attributing it to game consoles... :-/

Nope, Lobo wouldn't stand up long against modern technology. But, then again, Custer could have won if his men had been equipped with M-60s... ;D That one is from an old Twilight Zone show.

So, do you think the story(ies) left a mark on the boys of that day who grew into the men that fought in WWII? The reason for the question is that my dad fought jets with hand-cranked ack-ack cannons. Those cannons were obsolete when the jets hit the air, but his unit still knocked a few down. Confirmed kills.

And, since you haven't seen a rabbit swimming, does this mean that you are casting aspersions on that great Democratic president Jimmy Carter? Better be careful, he might get Billy to come talk to us on it! :D
http://www.narsil.org/politics/carter/killer_rabbit.html

;)

[Toad_Sticker]

not the technology but the techniques.........
the traps I use are the same as he would of used it is just we know more about the animals and what they are capable of......
I have read similar stories in old magazines and books I have......
I will ask do you take this as fiction or nonfiction?
I can see exagarations but that is how they wrote at that time...
TS

[billy_goat_gruff]

My answer is exaggerated nonfiction. I expect real bunnies to be able to swim, but not necessarily to use the pond as a known escape route... I expect there to have been a big wolf, possibly even named Lobo, but I doubt seriously if the motives attributed to the deeds done are true. Smarter than most wolves, maybe; I'd say that he was actually one who wanted nothing to do with anything human, or with anything that was in the least bit strange.

So, what technique would you use that doesn't depend upon some modern technology, be it modern scent killers or vehicles? I'm curious, and not a trapper...

FWIW, may be a day or so before I get back to this as there are things I need to do.

[Toad_Sticker]

If I were to go after Lobo tomorrow..........
I would use a horse like the author.
I would boil my traps to kill the scent and hang them in a tree for a few days.
I would have an old calf hide or something similar to stand on when I got off the horse.
I would set several traps but not more than 1 in a single place.(less time at the set=less scent)
I would leave them set with no bait or smell for at least a week.
A couple would be blind sets that would be set where Lobo "might" walk and get caught .They would be place by experience and best guess.
then a week later I would go bait the other sets each with a different lure or bait but only natural smells Lobo would be familiar with.
The problem they had catching him was all the bait and lure they were using. By using cow blood on the traps that were buried Lobo knew something was underground(not natural) Also at the time this might have happened they didn't know to boil traps to get rid of smells so when he set the traps in an "H" he spent a lot of time making the set plus he had 5(I think) traps buried for Lobo to sniff out.
The problem with the cheese cowfat poisoned bait was Lobo knew it was manmade because where would he of ever smelled cheese before?
The one thing modern technology would of helped with is if I was to try to shoot the wolves since I can shoot about 4 times farther than they could of at that time.
I think you are right exaggerated nonfiction altho a couple of the later stories I would bet are total fiction based on a couple of critters he had seen.
will definitely have my kids read this when they are older.......
You can really see the live free or die attitude of that generation in the later stories.
TS

[DonnaKay]

guys I haven't had a chance to read this yet but please give me a little time. I usually do my reading in the tub....ebooks aren't real tub friendly!! I've come down with some kind of nasty virus so I won't be going to work tomorrow. Hopefully that will give me plenty of time to read it.

Donna

[billy_goat_gruff]

Donna, will do... No problem.

I was thinking 3 - 4 days per story to read and all. Don't know how much time others have to read but I get in a couple of chapters every 3 or 4 days. I am also finding that I'm expecting a bit of "yarning" over them too, much as TS and I are doing for the trapping aspect of Lobo. That may be a bit much as the guys would be doing that on this one and the other guys are reading American Rifleman or Chilton's... ;)

Also am wanting MYR to do the close out on A Week in Winter (and now that I'm thinking of it, wouldn't mind hearing the ladies "yarning" over some of their flash romances... ;D )

TS, I don't see that much difference in your method and Seton's methods BUT I'm attributing Lobo's escapes more to total paranoia on his part and a very good knowledge of his terrain. I'm not sure that dug earth, a dust smell, or a number of other things that would clue him into something being different. The paranoia would do the rest.

Don't know.

So, do you have a light gas gun or something to go that 4X range? I'm thinking that one of the old timer's big .50's could shoot 800 - 1000 yards fairly accurately. They used longer tubes to get the velocities instead of smokeless powders, but there are some things that the ancients did that we aren't sure how they did. Newer doesn't have to be better.

I would have probably have used dynamite in a booby trap to get him. But, sometimes folks say I tend to overdo things... :o

[Toad_Sticker]

I was being practical
Seton would most likely be toting a lever gun on his horse.
I do know about the scent thing on the traps as I am an experienced trapper canines do know when something is meesed up. There tracks will walk up to a set and turn around and leave or walk around behind it and dig out the trap. I learned these lessons when I was a young stupid trapper.
Lobo was educated by less skilled cowboys trying to kill him for years.
TS

[DonnaKay]

I just finished Lobo. Having two kids I can definitely say that children's stories have changed a good bit since this was written...LOL. I liked this story. Stories like this have an element of reality that just isn't present in children's books now.

I'm not a hunter or trapper myself so I don't really have much to comment on that aspect of the story. I liked the fact that the story touched on the fact that it was a slightly bittersweet victory for the trapper. That he respected the wolf as being the king among his own, but at the same time the story didn't sugar coat the fact that this wolf was brutally killing livestock and had to be killed. I think in today's stories the wolf would have been a harmless vegetarian just trying to live peacefully in his pack with the wife and kids and the bad guys would have been hunters....the happy ending would have of course been the triumph of the wolves over the hunters. What do you guys think?

Donna

[Toad_Sticker]

just like the grasshopper being invited into the anthill to spend the winter with the ant...........
The ant originally told the grasshopper to dance to the same tune he danced to in the summer.
Also the first time I read an old "three little pigs" story to my kids they told me I was wrong because the wolf eats the first two pigs in the original.
I will make sure this book get read by my kids someday.
TS

[DonnaKay]

WHAT??? I didn't know the first two pigs got eaten!! I guess i've been sheltered too...LOL.

Okay, so this story is the juvenile literature (aimed at boys) of another era. Only going by this one story I would come to the conclusion that boys were suppose to see men as people that did what had to be done. That they were suppose to keep at something until they were successful. And while they may feel a little bang of regret they couldn't let feeling get in the way of what had to be done.

It seems to me that for the most part society today seems to either emasculate boys or portray them all as little thugs. I think boys would benefit more from old fashion type models of what being a man is all about.

Donna

[billy_goat_gruff]

Thanks, guys. I agree with you about the story. And society...

I found Lobo self-reliant to the extent that he could be, but not self-sufficient. He was a carnivore so had to kill to eat. What amazed me about this story was that a wolf actually only ate only what he killed, no scavenging. That was a big protection from poisoned food. And, I found him to be a wolf leader, i.e., either do it the pack leaders way or die. No tyranny there except for what is naturally occuring.

On to Silverspot... Contrasting the leadership styles is my question - crow vs. wolf. I'll make my comments Monday. Yeah, I'm dragging my feet. Anyone heard how MYR is doing?

My story is that when a boy I stalked a flock of crows for several hours over 160 acres to get a shot with a .22. A side shot at less than a hundred yards. The crow I shot at flew away... this is the same rifle that I would shoot the new growth twigs from the top of the 50 foot pine trees with. Have always wondered if I missed, or if the bullet didn't have the energy to penetrate the wing feathers, or... Didn't help when one of my buds took a crow with a .177 air rifle a year and a half or so ago...

Crows have my respect, but... Now I do a lot of my stalking armed with a 35 mm "caliber." *:D

Yuppers, Donna. In the old story the first two piggies paid for their mistakes and the wolf had a couple of fine meals...

You should see what they have done to "The Little Red Hen!"

[Toad_Sticker]

Silverspot is a story about a crow he observed,
adding the quallities he did is an enhancement of the story to fill it out.
These next stories I feel are fiction based on animals he had seen. Silverspot being the closest to fact next to the last story about the pacer that like Lobo I feel could be based mostly in fact.
TS

[DonnaKay]

I've been super busy but hope to get caught up tonight.

Donna

[billy_goat_gruff]

Wouldn't know anything about busy, Donna... *:D *We are having Lil Bro's IEP getting intense this week... To paraphrase, "SuperGlueLady looked at the goat. His eyes was wide, his lip was curled, his bottom was fried (chapped, at the least...)"

Anyway, Silverspot to me is an omnivore, Lobo was a carnivore. The natural weapons are different as are the leadership styles. Lobo was do it my way or die while Silverspot was do it this way to survive and I'll help you if you help me. Just a slight flavor difference there, IMO.

TS, we disagree. *I said exaggerated nonfiction with the exaggeration being tying the observations of the creatures together and giving them the power to think things through. Some animals DO have the ability to think if-then though, don't know how much exaggeration was needed if any. Once watched a cat torment a dog purposely and with malice aforethought by walking on a fence and letting the dog go nutz. Cat must have walked back and forth 5 or 6 times, just enjoying the antics of his inferior.

Perhaps you should define "fiction" for me. And then check out The Backwoodsman article to see if you would be clever enough to be a crow (honest, this the tagline of the article on their website - If human beings wore wings and feathers, very few would be clever enough to be a crow?

Also read a couple of pages of your book. I'm gonna be dragging up last place on reading it through so do what you gotta on the discussion. Might as well have a couple going in the book club; if luck is with us then there will be discussions of other books on here that the book club isn't reading.

Oh, and how about the next two stories in WAIHK by Friday? To all, just comment on them if something comes to mind.

MYR, any concluding remarks on A Week in Winter? I want to hear your final analysis on it. Please?

[DonnaKay]

Just finished reading Silverspot. Amazing the things you notice when you don't have a TV or a computer.

Do you all think that crows can really distiguish between dangers? I know they can tell the difference between human danger and the danger of other animals but do you really think they know the difference between an umbrella and a gun or a stick?

This story has got me interested in watching the birds in the woods behind my apatment much closer. Also I think I'm going to read these to my kids.


Donna

[billy_goat_gruff]

Well, Big Bro is getting married tomorrow so got stuff that has to be done today. However, quick comments, more after the "stuff" maybe...

Yes, Donna, I think crows can differentiate between dangers, and depending on their experiences, respond to them differently. I've listened to their "classroom discussions" many times and tried to slip up on them. I just became a teaching aide... *:D * * Other times I could walk by and they just watched me a bit. *They know the difference between a stalk and a walk, my opinion. Crows are smart, they say ravens are even more so...

Bingo - the story of a dog with a wild side. I've experienced many of the scenes told about with either my dogs and/or dad's dogs. *I wonder why we can accept our pets as human, or almost so, and not accept the wild ones as similar to the animals we are familiar with sometimes.

Edit - in blue

Gotta go. Phone call... *Till later.

Raggylug - the story of a cottontail. *Seton indicates in the Front Matter that this story is a compilation of several rabbit's adventures that he knew of. After TS's thoughts about fiction, I decided to re-read this one looking for goofs. Did you know that all snakes have teeth? I didn't. Thought they had bony ridges, however, google based search says that even though some snakes don't have fangs, there are six rows of teeth... I'll try to break a few more when I get some time.

Raggylug makes me wonder how much time Seton had just to fritter away. As someone who once had a half day that was used to watch a lizard, I can tell you that modern civilization VERY, VERY seldom allows one that kind of time now. How I would love to have a weekend just to go find a track and work out the story it tells.

Anyone with a favorite dog story here in honor of Bingo? The dog doesn't have to have a wild side even. And how about folks who have Lops, or raise bunnies. Is Seton making sense as far as you know by watching your critters? Just wondering...

Shall we do the remainder of the stories this coming week and/or give Donna a chance to read Bingo and Rag and catch up? The remaining story that I want thoughts on is the Springfield Fox story. Could you do as Vixen did to end the story? should one even consider such an action? I'm aware of an article written by a wolf watcher that had a similar event documented so, I'm curious.

Once done, my question will be how much influence on animal activists do you think these and similar stories had? Read the last pages of Redruff to find the exhortation I'm refering to. Do you guys think Seton would have joined PETA?

Okay, I'll let you get to your reading, and I'll get on with the business of getting squeeky shoes and penguin suits squared away... gonna tell that kiddo that is bigger than me that he has a good one this time, and that I know some folks that will loan her a shooting gun or teach her how to make one if he wants to be stupid. You folks will back me up, right? cause I'm talking about you guys there. * ;) * *;D

[billy_goat_gruff]

Well, my book is over. Hope everyone got to read it.

Concluding comments...
I don't think Seton would have joined PETA as I think he wanted a more equal type relationship as opposed to humans are more important, or animals are more important.

I do think his and others' works have been used to promote that which isn't, i.e., that animals are more noble, more this, more that than human kind.

As for Vixen, the guys that signed the Declaration of Independence understood her well. A couple actually had their whole families destroyed, all for a new nation.

Guess I'm of the opinion that if one isn't willing to put everything on the line, as these stories say these animals did, then one isn't free. Freedom has some great benefits, but there are negative ones that go with it also.

Thanks for reading. *Let's do a good job on Toad Sticker's book now. The Oath...

BTW, SuperGlueLady likes this author and borrowed it... can I do Cliff Notes, or SuperGlueLady Notes on it? (just kidding on the notes, not on the borrowing.) *;D

[DonnaKay]

BGG,

I'm not done with your selection yet. I plan to finish it before I move on. I may print them out as I find I enjoy reading stories from paper rather than on line....don't know why since I read plenty of posts on here...

Donna