Is it possible for people to L

[Grizzy]

Is it possible for mankind to Love Unconditionally, without peremeter... a purest kind of Love? If it is attainable, what hurdles need be overcome? Who is most likely to find this thing if it exists? What keeps it from descending to conditional love?

This topic has been an integral component of my life journey... I would be interested in hearing your thoughts...

~Grizzy~

[flatwater]

Man being sinful by nature will never achieve unconditional love. To many things that git in the way like pride, greed, arrogance,and any other number of things but with that said I do believe that if we are willing to really know ourselves and be willing to work at it we can come close. My wife has the closest thing to unconditional love that I have found. She has to to be married to me

[333]

Peace,

Unconditional Love, and LOVE are synonymous. Every other love IS conditional, or I love you if?

Simplified and for philosophical ends, lets put down, or set aside, the notions, for this thought experiment, that we as humans are bound to any religious or spiritual doctrine.

This is the purpose of thought experiments, there is no right or wrong, only inference and evidence to produce a logical reasonable deduction.

All evidence and inference comes from us, what we have experienced, and what we think about that experience.

Yes ones spiritual beliefs come into play as information gathered, but for the purpose of the discussion they are not the ends that justify the means.

Unconditional love is precisely that, unconditional.
The closest inference/ evidence I personally can provide based on my experience of my children's love and my love for my children.

That Love we share just...... IS...... is a feeling, a look, a smile, a kiss, a hug, there are no requirements for me to love my children, it was installed the moment they were born into this corporeal world. Upon first eye contact, first scent, first grin (could have been gas) but I believe other wise, first laugh.

To and for me this is the closest example I can provide to illustrate said LOVE with out condition.

The most difficult aspect of loving unconditionally is the fear of non reciprocity, or not being loved back. NORMAL it is, human conditioning to expect give and take, or "cultural relativism" (beliefs based on the culture one was raised in)

Letting go of aforementioned fear of non reciprocity, is the most difficult task of unconditional love, yet once you crack that door, and set foot in a larger room, more truths become apparent, available and understandable. The face of love starts to become clear, and joy of this new, true love is ten fold, and yes so is the despair when that love is no longer.

By no means am I the authority here, so please, accept this discourse as an invitation to express your understandings of what unconditional love is for you, what comprises it, what instills it, how it succeeds and where it falls short.

333

[Grizzy]

My father died when I was 8 years old. Later, after I was grown, I asked my mother about unconditional love and whether they had this thing. She told me that he was the only person she ever knew who demonstrated it. He was one who easily forgave and when he loved... it was without an expected outcome. As 333 illustrated in his child/parent relationship, their love just IS. That is how my father loved, also. He did not seek benefit from loving his family... nor anyone else.

And so we make observations from life experience to determine some of our basic beliefs.

It would seem to me that Love (unconditional) is an elevated area within us, coming from a selfless desire to love without earning favor or expected validation.

Being able to forgive and severing the emotional bruise from a hurt or injustice is a great tool, in my humble opinion, to assist us in overcoming negative experiences. Therefore, to love unconditionally would be a healing exercise in one's life and, by example, in others' lives.

[flatwater]

I believe dogs have unconditional love but you still have to treat them right for that to happen. So I will take out the spiritual part but that would still mean that there never be any expectations on you or your partners part and or your children. In the world of reality that likely will not happen. If you take the spiritual part out what would you base your reason for having unconditional love?. Do you believe that this is something that just happens? Something has to motivate that quality. I believe that that type or any other type of love is taught and cought from the day we are born

[Grizzy]

Flatwater, if you have to exhibit a standard of behavior in order to get the desired result with an animal then it's a conditioned love... "You don't hit me and I won't bite you". There are peremeters there..

Consider if you will, someone who gets up in the morning singing every day (not around me please and not before my first cuppa coffee omg). Then consider me who is not cheerful first thing in the morning because I cannot think. That is a state of mind I chooooose. I could sing, too. I just do not choose to be that cheerful at first light, although I COULD. To tell you the truth I might just try to change this behavior of mine because it's not very positive is it? The point is that our moods and behaviors are choices we make.

I was not given nor born with a desire to Love unconditionally. I simply prefer peace and tranquility over fussing and strife. I prefer to look at the bigger picture of my loved ones than the current moment, especially the difficult moments. If I can be a tool of patience and forgiveness, perhaps the difficult or unhappy one could benefit by example?

But here I'm going to completely do a turn around. I left a long standing abusive marriage. Did I not love well enough? My love could not heal. I failed. What do I do with this?

[cinok]

Grizzy, i believe that unconditional love can exist between a husband and wife and that is what makes a great marriage. I know that I love my DW unconditionally, it took me a couple of tries to find her. I may get mad at her or upset but there is nothing that she could do that make me not love her. If you are asking about unconditional love between all people I don't think that's possible to many variables to make that work. I also believe that a parents love is unconditional.

[333]

Peace,

If you take the spiritual part out what would you base your reason for having unconditional love?.

Spiritual understanding or tendencies are not required to know what love feels like "apriore" (with out physical experience), only demonstration from those around you in life as you grow, your mom, dad, siblings, friends, the love felt through interaction with those that care for and about you shape your ideas of love through experience or.."aposteriore" (with physical experience).

So in the long about way you are right, it is ENVIRONMENTAL, or in philo terms, "culturally relevant". Ones family is ones culture, until they leave the nest and go out into the bigger culture.

333

[flatwater]

Grizzy , you didn't fail , your partner did. I really don't think that love heals. It is a source that can effect healing both spiritual and physicly. But with that said it takes two people that work everyday to make a marriage work. When one gives up , unconditional goes out the window. My first wife got pregnant with another mans child. I forgave her and said we would raise it just like my own. Thats not what she wanted to hear. I tried for the next 5 years and on the way back from our 16th wedding aniversary she said I want a divorce and go find myself. She almost found herself walking home.

[Grizzy]

Thank You, Flatwater, for your kind words... Perhaps one day I will find this beautiful thing you share with your wife. I cannot really imagine being happy and at ease with the one person you love the most in this world. That is a Treasure that just seems soooo far away...

Life isn't perfect. We have disappointments and pain. But I do think it is possible to love without condition. Pity for the recipient who cannot understand nor return that goodness.

~Grizzy~

[Grizzy]

Wow...

I got up this morning thinking about our military... Man isn't THIS unconditional Love? At first I thought that perhaps it might be another word one could assign to their endeavors, but when I think about the supreme sacrifices being made... I can only think that it just HAS to be nothing short of a pure Love that takes them a off and away from everything that is familiar, safe and comfortable...

They go to serve a country and lay down their lives even though they do not always agree with the bastardizing of the framework of our founding fathers... If that isn't Unconditional Love what is?

~Grizzy~

[sbemt456]

In my opinion it is not possible for people to love unconditionally, 100%. Some may get close but never to perfection. There was only One that has walked the earth that was capable of unconditional love. Even in the strongest relationships, whether husband/wife or parent/child or other it is only possible to truly love until that love brings you pain. Then that experience will make it conditional love. But does that make it something other than love or any less desirable? We are only human, we are what life has made each of us. All capable of love to some degree. All striving for perfection till life gets in the way.
I had a friend tell me once that in a man/woman relationship you shouldnt look for someone you can live with but find the someone you cant live without. And some of us do find that kind of love. And it wont matter if its conditional or unconditional.

Have a great day!

stella

[flatwater]

Grizz , your right. there is a saying that says no greater love can a person have then to give up their lives for another person. so with that outlook I do have unconditional love for my wife and country and who really knows who else

[333]

Peace,

It is surly no secret that we are human, as well as we are inundated and bombarded with all the power of the advertising mecca telling us what to wear ,eat, drive and ultimately what constitutes love. Everything sold or advertised is associated with love, lust or desire. Unfortunately this is a base conditional love, you will only feel full filled if you own these THINGS, you will only be lovable if you drive this or wear that. You must wear this and act like that to be loved. You must look this way or you are found lacking.

IT IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to transcend this culture created by those not at all interested in unconditional love but buy your perpetual involvement in their consumer driven competition based society.

I believe it is not that one has to be 100% perfect in their unconditional love, one only has to continue to endeavor, 100 percent of the time, with 100% effort to foster unconditional love, unto themselves and those around them.

333

[Grizzy]

Oh 333... YES! Well Put!!! :D

~Grizzy~

[flatwater]

Now that I can buy in to

[CapeCMom]

You can love God unconditionally-he loves you that way and gave us the capacity to also.

[333]

Peace,

Absolutely correct, one can love their chosen spiritual path, and its dieties unconditionally. In fact one might say that it is a prerequisite. How ever the theology room is across the hall lol just kidding. I believe that what most folks call God, or the notion that the thoughts of such a being invoke, are all driven by pure unconditional love, and only the human language fails to produce a proper, concise, accurate, word to describe these feelings, notions or emotional images. Hence GOD. Personally speaking I prefer "ALL THAT IS" instead of God.
IN a room of many different strangers, say the word blue. Every one in that room would see a different shade or hue of blue. This is to say I might really mean Royal Blue, but they in their mind see, teal, turquiose, saffire, navy, true, aquamarine, sky, baby, robins egg, etc etc. Ergo what one individual sees in their minds as and heart as "god" is not the same for another. Where as, ALL THAT IS is simply that, unless some one knows the true name of ALL THAT IS, please share ;)

333

[flatwater]

Assuming that " all that is " Is the one true God then that name works for me. That's the one thing that does not work for me in Philosophy. There are no absolutes. When you take God out you end up with chaos or multiple philosophy's none of which could have any truth in them or one could have a bit of truth or all could have a bit of truth but without all of the truth you have philosophy's. Not much to hang my hat on.

[333]

Peace,

If the theory of causality holds water, that being everything is or has been caused, then the singularity or first cause is that which many folks would call God. or as I prefer, ALL THAT IS.

Western philosophy/theology or mono theism, agrees that this is the case, ONE "all that is", Eastern PHILO/THEO hold on to that there very well may be ONE but that ONE employs many in his/her stead, even humans that have achieved enlightenment IE, bodhisatva, arhants, avatars, or just plain representatives of all that is, Ghandi, Siddartha Buddha, Lao Tse etc. This would not be polytheistic, as with say, Hinduism and the many faces of All that Is, with the one assertion that a man can achieve said enlightenment.

As with collectivism versus individualism, the debate goes as with the debator. Monotheism versus Polytheism, if one removes the absolutes that "faith" sometimes, sometimes demands then the debate would find many great similarities and common ground that both paths will lead to the mountain top.

I personally find it hard to believe that an all benevolent, singularity, with omniscience would not accept ANY benovolent path that guides a human to lead the good life, hence all faith have facets of truth, and lore alike.

If we are all created in the image and likeness of all that is, then "this we shall do and much more" only when we choose to walk the walk of unconditional love.

If one thing is for certain in "LIFE" it would be there are no absolutes, as the centuries pass, what was certain yesterday is no more today due to the understanding and evolution of knowledge itself, the world was flat, now it is not, the universe revolved around the earth, now it does not. As this applies to faith, it will change and evolve as human knowledge grows and changes, this is not a bad thing so long as the path one walks is DOING the good, no ALL THAT IS would refuse the exercise of free will to interpret, the GOOD and put it into action, there are many paths to the top of the mountain.


333

[Grizzy]

Hey There 333 :)

I always read and reread your words because you pack so much in them...

I would suppose the word "destination" is important in this discussion. I do not just strive to get to the top of the mountain... but even above that place of the eagle, my brother. I believe the path is straight and narrow and few shall find it...

We are given so many implements by which to live these lives. Free will is one of the ones that is so dear. We live and die by the choices we make. Yes, there are many paths to the top of the mountain... but it would depend on the Mountain you are ascending, I suppose, whether it matters what path you're on...

There are paths... and there are destinations...
I know that if I should be in a jet plane on my way to Cincinnati... I need to know that there is a generous tank of fuel on board to get me there, something I could count on and know is the truth. Good intentions just won't get me off the ground...

~Grizzy~

[flatwater]

Well said Grizzy

[WileyCoyote]

Sorry, no. There is no such thing as unconditional love in the earthly plane. Even Jesus, who laid down his life for sinners, had a prerequisite - one must turn away from evil and follow Him. THAT is a condition. A serial killer who religiously confesses after every murder and is forgiven over and over again? No, not happening. He does not meet the condition.

Mates have requirements, necessary in any relationship. Would you stay with your spouse/SO if they refused to do anything at all, refused to be an active participant, laid about all day and expected you to wait on them hand and foot? If you DID do that, for many years, without resentment or any display of anger or disgust or even mild unpleasant feelings, then MAYBE you could claim unconditional devotion. What if they beat you? What if they beat you to death? As you lay there bleeding and dying in front of your children, and the killing stroke was about to be delivered, would you look them in the eye and say, "I love you"? If you could, you could claim unconditional love. If you actually do it though, then you are breaking Jesus' second commandment - "Love thy neighbor as thyself". As. THYSELF. You have to love yourself, you have to respect yourself, FIRST, before you can claim to be able to love anyone else. And that is a condition, too.

Unconditional love is part of a fantasy world in which people are never hungry, never cold, never hurt, never afraid, never alone, and never have bills to pay. The reality is much harsher and more exact. You cannot grow in unconditional love - it either imprisons you or your intended loved one in a static environment where change and growth are not necessary. And stasis is against God's Law and natural laws alike. Love demands expectation, love requires goal-setting and fulfillment, love is tried and tested and true because of, not in spite of, challenges met and conquered.

JMHO.

[Grizzy]

Hello Wiley Coyote :)

I do have experience with some of what you posted. You see, I came from a brash marriage with little regard for the happiness of my children or for me. I tried for 28 years to be a better example than that which my spouse showed me. I did love and forgive until I realized that there was just nothing that I could see anymore... not the man, not the path, not a future. It was not in a lack of love that I left, but in a sense of futility that my life was being wasted... for nothing. I abhor waste. My heart was so anemic I was dying from within, so I left. Thas the long and the short of it. Sometimes, "can't" means.. "won't". It was not that I could not love, I chose "won't" love, won't waste my good gifts on someone incapable of returning that love... I believe in being a good steward of every good thing God has given to us.

Because one chooses to live in peace and is patient with others doesn't imply they live in a fantasy world. Perhaps it means that the allowance of such attributes offer grace for someone else to regroup and become a better person BEING well loved. In the event that does not evolve, it is simply common sense to move on... not out of hatred, but to be in a healthier environment.

If someone tries to take my life, they forfeit their own. That is not my inability to love unconditionally, that is a code of conduct that is vital to survival. A soldier takes lives and we cannot peer into his heart but I would just wager it is, more often than not, with tears behind the eyes that watch his enemy die. We will do what needs doing to survive.. Life WILL renew itself...

To walk away from a relationship does not have to imply a lack of love, but it could, perhaps, exemplify wisdom. When we are not equally yoked, when a house is divided, eventually the original equation changes. I believe the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over the same way and expecting a different result...

To reference what you said about God... remember that He came to this earth in human form loving us unconditionally, offering us an escape from the sin of this world. It is a gift. It is US who choose to accept it or not. God did not condemn us but came to offer us Hope, and payed the ultimate price FOR us to be able to come unto Him. I know this is not the appropriate forum for discussing religion, but I did want to address your comments.

I am defending this concept of Unconditional Love because I only know how to love one way... with all my soul, with all my body and with all my strength... WHO I choose to love, is a most sober decision...

Remember the days when a man's word was his bond? Remember when a handshake sealed a bargain? Do you recall when a promise meant something you could count on? Those were days when character defined a person. I believe it takes character to surf the trials of a relationship and not bail because the water gets choppy. Anyone I love is NOT disposable. But one thing is true. Not everyone loves me back, and that I can live with. At least that is honest.

~Grizzy~

[WileyCoyote]

Hi, Grizzy. I think that maybe you missed the last part.

You cannot grow in unconditional love - it either imprisons you or your intended loved one in a static environment where change and growth are not necessary. And stasis is against God's Law and natural laws alike. Love demands expectation, love requires goal-setting and fulfillment, love is tried and tested and true because of, not in spite of, challenges met and conquered.

When you love and do not expect others to live up to themselves and their abilities, it is like a co-dependency - "I love you no matter what" is a message of "You don't have to be an active participant or take responsibility". Even a lot of religions nowadays have the "I don't have to be responsible for my own actions, because I am forgiven - no matter what!" They believe in unconditional love, which permits them to do whatever they choose, to whomever they choose, because they are "saved". Some use it as a blanket excuse for their own self-promotion or to take advantage of others, i.e., "I'm saved, and they're not, so no matter what I do to them, it's OK." One deacon I knew did that to a pretty young thing. After a night of rousing sex (she was a virgin and chose to give herself and her love to this man) he rolled over and looked at her and said, "You're going to hell for what you did last night." She looked at him incredulously and said, "What about YOU?" "Oh, no, I'm still going to heaven because I'm saved." She actually married him and submitted herself to him, because of his guilt trip. He believed in unconditional love, all right - that HE had to be unconditionally loved by both his god and his woman, but he didn't have to invest his own emotional commitment.

Humans with human failings cannot love unconditionally, because there is always a line in the sand - "This far will I go, and no further". It may be a line of self-respect, it may be a line of what they will/won't, can/cannot accept - such as a child being gay, becoming an addict, marrying a bloodsucking entitlement monster or politician (oxymoron), or becoming a serial bomber. Relationships fail because of the refusal of one or both parties to live up to the commitments - which include responsibilities as well as rewards. These are all actual or implied contracts; marriages, parent/child, teacher/student, even the handshake agreements - because they are tradeoffs, conditions that both agree to meet. "If you do this, I will do that" or "I won't do that as long as you don't do this" - all conditions that promote and maintain personal as well as couple, family, and group interdependence and survival. The minute you enter into an agreement, you place conditions on all participants - so there can be no 'unconditional' love.

What you described in your own life is close to what I experienced in my first marriage. My second marriage was a total, practical contract - an understanding of what each brought to the table, what each was willing to do - and not do - to make the relationship endure. The first marriage lasted five years - the second one has lasted 27 and is still going. We both remind each other of our commitments, especially in times of struggle - and face things with our own declared talents unified for success. Love is a grand and glorious feeling - but tempered with thought and reason, it is far less painful, there are no disappointments, no recriminations, and no Sturm und Drang of emotional angst and upheaval. Plus it is a lot more fun to be open, honest, playful, and trusting in each others' abilities than it is to blindly trust in ephemeral 'love'.

[Grizzy]

You know... I truly appreciate your words. I'm going to be quiet and reread your prior post and then this one because I know you are speaking in your truth and understanding. I need to step back and consider your words. I admire you for taking so much time in this thing...

I cannot discuss this as 333 does. I never sat down and had a discussion in print on this type of topic. All I have to go on is what I know about myself and my life experience. I suppose this sounds silly, but I liken loving to the horse that will be ridden to the point that he bursts himself...
Again, thank you, Friend.

~Grizzy~

[333]

Peace,

It never does my heart any comfort to know that others have suffered tremendously at the hands of false love. For what it is worth I am truly sorry.

I have a son, the last and only in my family line, (unless I make another) after so many generations in this nation, and such importance placed by the patriarch of my family through out life, that when the erronious courts system and fraudulent love of the X, swindled and coerced him away from me for simple lack of funds to fight, she gets pro bono with all her lies, I get zilch and rail roaded. She did this with extreme malice, she knew that it was my greatest fear and made it real.

In the end, if one believes in justice and ALL THAT IS, she will stand in front alone and explain herself, she will be judged as I will for our parts in this travesty. We are individuals, and perhaps we were to young, ignorant and just plain dishonest with our selves. Folks like her, and this deacon, do not know the nature of true love, and the unconditional parameters it requires. All they know is how to please themselves by any means, and the manipulation of false love or self delusionment.

Folks like this DO NOT love themselves, of this I am guilty in the then of my youth, as was she. I reached bottom, I chose life, I put my own house in order, My physical self (the foundation), My mental self, (the basement and attic) and my spirit (where I reside, the house). These are our responsibilties in life before we should even consider merger with another, hind site being 20 / 20. In other words, removing said human failings is unconditional love for oneself. Perpetually, attempt, pursue, strive to do this and life takes on a whole new hue and flavor. Love for thyself is the key, not selfish empowerment, unconditional love for thyself, ones errors which make you grow, ones success which verifies ones direction, it is not a destination, it is just a way, or path.
The more one walks, endeavors and lives it, the greater the certainty.

"Concern yourself not, with the good and bad of another, as it will only open a door in your heart for maliciousness to enter, ones own task is to foster thyself into the full blossom and potential of human life, that is purpose, that is enough."

333

[WileyCoyote]

Thanks for sharing that, 333. I felt :( for you; everyone has had hurts that change their lives and make them who they are, that was very poignant and, I'm sure, hard to relate.

But I have to say that I don't even love MYSELF unconditionally! I woke up this morning berating myself for not checking the chickens' water last night; so at 4:30 I went out and opened the tractors and coop and fed and watered them. (They were fine - a little low and as usual dirty, but fine). I constantly argue with myself, and demand more of myself; what I am and what I do is never good enough, hard enough, or fast enough. If "the unexamined life is not worth living" then mine must be of extreme worth, because I constantly question it! ;):D

To me, if I loved myself unconditionally, then I would be very accepting of my faults and peccadilloes, rather than striving constantly to change them for the better. I may never be the perfect wife, mom, gardener, animal husbander, ceramicist, artist, artisan, housekeeper - but I just know that if I let up on my lazy self for even a moment, I'll backslide! :D

So not even unconditional love of self is acceptable or laudable to me. Mother Nature, Father Time, my plants, my chickens, my husband and children, my hopes and dreams and plans and needs drive me every day to not accept being comfortable with my self. I love myself and think that I am pretty smart and funny and fun to be with and creative and tough and hardworking - but there is always room for improvement, and I'll never be satisfied with myself as I am. To me, to do so is to die.

[333]

Peace,

That was to me a perfect example of Unconditional Love, for yourself, you will not yield, always excelling for more perfection, even though we may not reach it, we keep going.

I have not seen my son Michael for 13 years because of the courts system and its faults, but I will not yield, he will know me, he will chosse the truth, only one more year he will be 18, then I am untouchable by the court should I contact him via Private messenger/ investigator.

To me, if I loved myself unconditionally, then I would be very accepting of my faults and peccadilloes, rather than striving constantly to change them for the better. I may never be the perfect wife, mom, gardener, animal husbander, ceramicist, artist, artisan, housekeeper - but I just know that if I let up on my lazy self for even a moment, I'll backslide!

It reminds me of the movie the last samurai with T. Cruise, when his captor the emporor's top samurai who willnot yield to the ways of the west and foresake his nations legacey, is staring at a cherry tree, looking for the perfect blossom, "A man could spend his whole life looking for the perfect blossom," in the end he realized,

"They are all perfect."

333

[Grizzy]

333, I believe you will see your son again and that he will want to hear your words... and in that there is peace. I don't care about the things of this earth that are temporal or self satisfy'n... I just want to get the living part downpat and do it well...

Thank You for all of your input regarding this thread... You have given me much to think about...

~Grizzy~