Are You? *Altruist or Egoist

[333]

Peace,

Finally the escapades over/ for the executive office have *germinated into the seeds of hope or destruction based on ones perspective or philosophy and we can all but wonder now with the withering hype and hoopla, ..What now? *

Are the folks in power elected by you Altruistic in nature ?

Will they do what is morally right ?
Will they do what is constitutionally lawful ?
Will they place all of you ahead of themselves ?
Will they give all that they have to insure your well being?

I find these to be very valid, important and simple questions because their answers are direct reflection of what will happen now and next.

Are they egotistical in nature?

Will they serve themselves at your expense?
Will they subvert your morals?
Will they disregard your inherent constitutional rights?
Will they ask you to give all that you have so that anothers way of life be assured?

What if you found yourself in the executive office?

So are you an altruist or an egoist?

333

[333]

Peace,

I myself, to be fair, am an altruist.

333

[flatwater]

I too am a altruist but one can get along a lot better in todays new world being a egoist.
Flatwater

[WileyCoyote]

I am an egoist, hard-wired, dyed in the wool, firm and unmoving.

I will help people who will help themselves, but I will not sacrifice my self for the whole, for government, for the state, for the masses. I will not have as friends nor consort with those who are lifelong dependents on "the kindness of strangers". I rebel against those who insist that it is my life task to give to the 'less fortunate' or those who are consistently and constantly needy. I tell off folks who are constantly clawing at my life and emotions, demanding attention to their problems and insisting that theirs are more prevalent, more devastating, and more omnipresent than my own. I do not tolerate 'drama queens' - or kings! - and scrape them off at any opportunity. I taught my children to suck it up and not whine about themselves and their problems, but to figure out how to overcome them and succeed at whatever they chose. I taught them to be independent, not dependent.

While mutual dependence is a good thing, one-sided altruism is, IMNSHO, destructive and debilitating to the mind, the body, the soul. Giving away one's self so that others may prosper is not the challenge of life, is not the goal of the human condition, and detracts from the growth of not only the individual but the human race. It creates the endlessly dependent and the endless givers. It creates constant demand for succor instead of self-reliance and industry. It destroys personal freedom and choice. It cripples Man with unneccessary and debilitating "shoulds" and "musts", rather than empowering him to achieve for himself all that he can be.

Yup, I am an egoist! ;D

[333]

Peace,

As a parent you were most certainly an altruist.
You put them first and encouraged their self reliance.

Willingness to help others help themselves is altruistic as well.

In many aspects we are all a little of both ...however I most definitely agree with much of what you say about the parasite killing its host.

Perhaps we will confine the parameters to this question, in general, and more precisely to:

If you found yourself in the executive office would you be Altruist or Egoist. ?

333

[WileyCoyote]

LOL, 333! Most certainly my children would tell you that I was NOT an altruist, I made them make their own meals, do their own laundry, and pick up after themselves. They had to take care of the garden, feed and slaughter the chickens, help pick and clean the vegies, and even install fencing without help or supervision in the summer - and I mean posthole-digger-dug, cement-poured bases, then pickets! If they wanted money, they didn't get paid by me - they all had jobs at 14. I believe "dictator" would be a more agreeable term to them. They insisted that I only had children because I couldn't own slaves! ;D

As for being in any political office, but particularly the Executive Office, the only way you can get IN there is to promise to give away everything everyone else has worked for and earned to those who don't want to work or earn. To achieve that office I would have to lie through my teeth to get elected, and then they would line up with their hands out. However, I would have to run the office and the country as I ran my own home - "You want WHAT? Good - it's good to want things, it's healthy and makes you work harder. There's work to be done - get over here and produce something. Oh, and no slacking, either - I bust my a$$, you will too, and there's a time frame here..."

I'd be asassinated or impeached in six months. :o ;D

[333]

Peace,

I'd be asassinated or impeached in six months.

LOL mee too but still I know you a reclusive altruist, in the end I would agree you provided the best education

Thanks for the laughs they came in handy today.

333

[mule1rider]

333 you appear to be an Egoist. *Caring for your spouse or child is an act of selfishness. *Your life is enriched by them and their lose would cause you great pain. *They are something that you greatly value. *

Letting your child go hungy while you fed strangers would be an act of the alturist. *This is something that my Grandmother did and my Dad is hurt to this day by her acts.

As for me I'm an Egoist. *Alturism is the hammer with which collectivists bludgen us daily making us feel guilty for leading lives that seek enrichment and *fullfillment. It is the weapon by which they enslave us. *It is truly the root of all evil.

[333]

Peace,

Caring for your spouse or child is an act of selfishness.

This has me confused, is it what you really meant to say?

Letting your child go hungy while you fed strangers would be an act of the alturist.

An altruist would never let their child go hungry,only the egoist is capable of sacrificing another before themselves.

The extent of my egoism is confined to the boundaries of self preservation.

Thanks fun stuff *;D

333

[mule1rider]

333

I meant exactly what I said. Think about it.

Alturism is behaviour that promotes the survival chances of others at a cost to ones own. It means placing the needs of strangers above the things that you value.

Caring for yourself or the ones that you value over others is considered selfish. The President elect would say "your being greedy." It's hogwash of course. Your life is as valuable as others and you have a right to "pursue happiness" in your own life.

[mule1rider]

I just looked up the defination and yes I got it right. Altruism is an ethical doctrine that holds that individuals have a moral obligation to help, serve, or benefit others, if necessary at the sacrifice of self interest. Auguste Comte 's version of altruism calls for living for the sake of others. So yes an alturist would starve himself and his loved ones in order to feed strangers. The egoist would selfishly feed his family first.

The horror of the philosophy of alturism is that it provides a justification for looters the use force to confiscate what individuals produce and transfer that wealth. Again the President elect would say it's " spreading the wealth" The initial use of force is of course immoral. It is stealing.

[333]

Peace,

Alturism is behaviour that promotes the survival chances of others at a cost to ones own. *It means placing the needs of strangers above the things that you value.

Altruism is an ethical doctrine that holds that individuals have a moral obligation to help, serve, or benefit others, if necessary at the sacrifice of self interest.

Two different perspectives, two different dispostions?

The egoist would selfishly feed his family first.

The altruist would feed his family first, before himself, and then most likely be compelled to feed strangers.

So one has to be an egoist before one can choose to be altruistic?

Perhaps there truly are many levels and many dispositions of both the egoist and the altruist in all of us?

thanks

333

[mule1rider]

333,

My purpose is not to "win" this discussion but to pursuade you through reason to adjust you attitude a bit. If we are to return our nation to prosperity and individual freedom, we must establish a philosophy that celebrates and encourages the individual to seek fullfillment in his own life as a moral goal. *

Using the doctrine of alturmism the looters have just about destroyed our nation. *A case in point is the current financial upheavals we are undergoing. In large part this was caused by government intervention thru the encouragement and in many cases requirement that mortages be given to individuals who could not pay for the home. *This is what a sub prime loan is. *The weight was given to the "rights" of people to have a home over the reality and financial desire to make a solid loan and to "make" money. *The "right" to own a home does not exist in nature as do our true rights. *Now those of us that produce wealth are being required to pick up the tab.

The looters have used alturism to make us feel guilty for working to be prosperous. *It ensures that everyone will be equal.... equal in their misery. *

The point I was making is that taking care of those that you value is not a sacriface, it is not alturism. *Alturism requires living you life for others and not yourself.

If we are to return our country to the the path of human fullfilment we must return to a philosophy of freedom and individual rights. * Absent this we are on a path leading to the looters taking more and more of our property until they steal it all and the producers stop producing. *I've already continued to work and produce beyond the point where I said I would stop. My limit was having them steal 50%. *They now take more than that. *I'm about to "shrug" *I will not live as a slave.

[WileyCoyote]

Ditto, Mule1rider.

"Forcing" my kids to learn, work, and do, ensured two things - 1)That they would be able to function on their own without a forever mommy; and 2) That they would leave home as soon as possible, freeing up my life for other things. This also ensures the outcome that they will never go wandering thru the freezer section of the grocery store, looking for the instant toast, *;D or end up waiting for someone else to feed, clothe, and employ them. Many of the mothers who were mothers with me, still have their children living at home, eating their food, clothing, water, fuel, and vehicles, using their own parents as lifelong servants. The ones that permit that are the altruists. I am not. We told all of ours - "when you turn 17, you get Samsonite. When you turn 18, you use it - so you'd better have a plan." They all did.

THAT is not altruism - that is the proper function of parenthood, to raise one's progeny to survive on its own.

My hubby of 26 years is crippled. As an egoist, should I have thrown him out when he became so? No. He still has his uses, even though he is not as useful as he once was. *While I am sure that a younger, stronger model would be of more help, the difficulty arises in training. This one is trained perfectly to suit. Kicking him to the curb and spending ANOTHER 20 years getting ANOTHER one trained would involve more output and emotional angst than I am willing to spend. Again, the egoist - I keep what I like around me if it suits me. If he does die, then it would cost me more in time and effort than it is worth to train another, so I'll just be the mean old widder lady down the street.

Egoism is constantly reviled as a bad thing; everyone these days seems to think that peace and love and self-sacrifice go hand in hand. But Mule1Rider is right; this sort of 'caring for others' and making others generationally dependent on that 'caring' is what has durn near destroyed this country - everything from Congress' *and Obama's insistence that "People deserve homes, (Whether they can afford them or are responsible enough to make the payments or not) so let's lower the lending requirements so EVERYONE (no matter how self-destructive, selfish, and dependent they are) can buy one!" *An Egoist is not self-destructive - does not cut off his nose to spite his face, renege on loan agreements, or indulge in purely momentary, self-satisfying pleasures - an egoist does what s/he has to, to survive, even flourish, long-term. To an egoist, his/her longterm life and steady accomplishment and progression are what matter - not anyone else's.

A little TIC there but it is true - I am not a closet or latent altruist, I am an egoist. And durn proud of it.

[mule1rider]

Wiley & 333,

The battle we individualists are losing, *or perhaps now have lost, *is the philosophical battle asked by 333's initial question. *"are you? Altruist or Egoist" *Until the Egoist view is not only stated in a defensiveable philosophy but in a way the shows the joy of living a life where you strive to attain your own goals and happiness we will continue to lose ground to the alturists. This basic argument has been abandoned by the egoists. *How many people do you know that feel guilty for being successful when "there are starving whatevers in the world." *This is what we must change if we are to return to living enriched fruitful lives. *If we can't succeed here on this forum with readers who believe in self reliance how can we successfully project this philosophy among the larger society? *That is our task.

Mr. Duffy, this magazine founder and editor, *makes a more basic point. *We are rapidly abandoning reason as the model for looking at the world around us. *The mystics, *soothe sayers, new age environmentalists are now setting the model for the how people look at theselves and the world around them. *By abandoning the scientific method and following these "psedo sciences" people are subject to having these wand wavers cram all kinds of nonsense down their throats. *That's how we end up with the looters waiving their "magic ink pens" to pass laws on social security, housing, affirmative action, well the list never stops. *None of the programs will solve any problem and non of them are sustainable. *The real world does not operate that way. *Despite this the "starry eyed" idealists keep passing more laws and destroying more and more of our freedom.

[WileyCoyote]

My only comfort is that, eventually, Darwin will rule.

The psuedo-scientists and the crackpots, as well as the gullible lemmings that follow them, gap-mouthed and whining, must eventually fail. The pandemics will occur, the riots for food and warmth and money and shelter will commence, the screetching, grasping, me-firsters will defile their own nests and run out of filth in which to wallow... they will move on to other nests equally defiled, and eventually rot in their own excrement. But...

It's sort of like waiting for God, though - yeah, yeah, vengeance is Yours, BigDude. So TAKE it already, wiilya?? PLEASE??? JEEZ, they're doing it AGAIN... I get sooo impatient.... ::) :o ;D

[333]

Peace,

Thanks folks I really covet the little time I get to wander these halls, even more so when I do not have to wear the "badge". Thank you.

Still.... Is it truly ones actions or philosophy that defines them?

In the end I would consider you altruists precisely because your proactive productive "selfish" efforts toward your posterity and your selves IS the best thing for humanity society as a whole. Your example and effort inspires others to aspire, in the now, for themselves but in the end for their posterity thus promoting a better world.

I guess we all are to some extent at any given time in many diffrent situations , both and egoist and altruist. At least we can recognize the traits and characteristics of our dispositions...Philosophy i cant get enough i am like a philo junkie or something lol.

thanks

333

[mule1rider]

333,

Glad to see your interests in philosophy. Recommended reading (got mine on audio from Audible) is the VIRTURE OF SELFISHNESS which is a collection of writings by AYN RAND and others written in the early 1960's. Of course if you haven't read Atlas Shrugged I highly recommend that you start with that.

[333]

peace,

Thanks,

who is john galt?

lol

333

[OutRider]

I prefer nihilism

[FZRaven]

Egoist, for the simple reason that I am the most important person. I'm not saying I'm the most important person to everyone, just myself. My happiness and well being comes before others, you may say otherwise, but I'll call you a liar.

Everything you do in your life is for yourself, it all ties back to you. You might give a little money to help the poor, but are you doing this for them or for yourself? Giving money or helping people makes you feel good, right? So such things in the end are done for yourself.

On children, the fact that you would feed your children before you has no bearing on you being an egoist. It's simple evolution, your job is to protect your offspring so as to pass on your gene's. If you let a child die your failing at your primary goal in life. The act of feeding that child is the act of an egoist.

[anastasia]

mmmhh! obsessed with freeloaders looks like they get all the attention althoug negative.
i guess theres a deep resentment for being taken advantage, by governmentby or by relatives, sounds like you feel exploited xreal or imaginary reasons and also sounds like an obsession throughout this forum
You guys had you been exploited by someones really badly? by government or by relatives or strangers, etc?

[mule1rider]

Anastasia,

This is a philosophy board and the initial question was are you an Altruist or an egoist. I suspect that 333 got more than she bargained for in response. *Did you read all the posts? There is not an Obsession with freeloaders in this discussion, but rather a discussion of what duties, if any, you have towards others and to yourself.

After reviewing the posts I' m still convinced that some of our posters here are confusing alturism with benevolance. * Alturism requires a sacriface on your part. The greater the sacriface the more moral a person you are.

Are you not resentful of thieves? Do you not feel it is moral to seek a self fullfilled life for yourself? Feel free to join the discussion. *While we may get a little spirited in our posts i've found that the members here quite civil in our responses. This particular post is one that I feel strongly about as I believe that the freedoms that we enjoy in our civil society will turn on how we answer the question asked by 333. *A more basic question is the right of the individul against the right of the collective state. I see our freedoms being eroded and endangered by those that demand that we give up our enjoyment of life to strangers and our own submission to those demands because of the current dominant philosopy in our culture requiring "alturism".

Rick

[333]

Peace,

There are so many facets of what maybe altruistic, and like wise with what may be egoistic, the broad range of many actions a person may make or take can have implications of both the egoist and altruist. In the end we all are a compilation of both.

A person must do the best for themselves before they can possibly assist or aid another, they must be secure first, then they will have time and resources to dole out as they see fit.
This may seem like egoism, and it very well maybe on some levels, but the end in these cases would be determined by the outcome or level of their benevolence once they have said ability to discharge, delegate, their fruits to another.

Secure your own castle, then your neighbors if needed, and his neighbor if needed, and so on until the whole of society trusts in the fact that working sovereign individuals can and will gladly secure them selves through symbiotic altruism.


The only pitfalls to this end is as always throughout history, GREED and LUST for lack of better description. They seem to be a learned human trait, that man kind can not seem to shake.

IMHO of course.

333