Courage

[flatwater]

I'm not sure if this is the right place but Wax at the bottom of your pages you say courage is not an emotion but an act of will. This brings about an interesting question because I have seen courage on many different levels and can't agree that it is only an act of will. So the question to all of us is what do you think about this. I have seen courage which appears to be both and some that appears that someone pulled it out their a-s And what does courage really mean and I don't want websters definition from the dictionary.
Flatwater

[FirestarterKY]

Wow...what a question!
LOVE great questions.
By the way Flat water, I enjoyed your take in the "foster kids" thread.
Thanks.

If I think back on my courage, there, as a woman, have been times when I appeared very couragous in the face of threat to my child.
Though, that is a thing that exsists in most women I think, if their child is at risk......
They can become couragous monsters, capable of killing with one swift blow.
But, for me, courage has been the ability to let go of ego/life.
That is not easy....we all want the next breath.
To go places that scare me.
Willing to go places that scare me.....for the sake of growth.
Lately, I've heard in my head, "Be outragous!". "Be in love!"
Courage to me has been the ability to experience the soft quiet things in life.
Letting Gooooooooooooooooooooooooo
is couragous, to me.
Letting something else in.
I have been couragous in my life.
But, I still lack the courage to heal a place so
deep within that dark dark lake within me.

Good question!!!

[walls0stone]

Flat,
are you saying the diffrance between curage and crazy is a very fine line?

[FZRaven]

I'd say courage is an act in the face fear, or in spit of fear. To be afraid yet still confront what causes this fear would be courage. I'd say courage is in effect acting against instinct, yet emotion might still play a part. If another emotion were to be strong then then fear than it would still lead to courage. But I also agree reason play a part, for courage without reason would be stupidity. Emotions are are like a razors edge, then can help at time and at other times can hurt. Often people will act to quick without reason, and let their emotions rule them.

[walls0stone]

so Curage would be feeling scared S***Less and going anyway?

[JAK]

courage is the recognition that fear is a lie
that takes some work sometimes

[FZRaven]

courage is the recognition that fear is a lie
that takes some work sometimes
I wouldn't say fear is a lie, we have developed fear for good reason. Most often when you are afraid you have damned good reason.

[JAK]

Yes, well I did say it took some work sometimes.
Well beyond me, most times, I must say.


HATE NOT, FEAR NOT.

Kill if you must, but never hate:
Man is but grass and hate is blight,
The sun will scorch you soon or late,
Die wholesome then, since you must fight.

Hate is a fear, and fear is rot
That cankers root and fruit alike,
Fight cleanly then, hate not, fear not,
Strike with no madness when you strike.

Fever and fear distract the world,
But calm be you though madmen shout,
Through blazing fires of battle hurled,
Hate not, strike, fear not, stare Death out!

- Robert Graves

[JAK]

I don't have much stomach for old men and poets speaking of war,
except of course true war poets. Robert Graves was one of those.

True vets too, of course, though they rarely speak,
and when they do I am only so feebly able to listen.

[JAK]

I remember my directing staff platoon commander in basic training, a steely blue eyed black beret with a mischievous grin, more mythical perhaps than human, like out of a fairy tale. Yet very real, a Polish Canadian with the Royal Canadian Dragoons. He taught us that we had no right or real ability to change a man unless we loved them first, or to kill a man we hated first. This from a fellow that scared the crap out of us just to look at him. He was known for being always up before dawn, fishing. Last I saw of him was on CBC, he was a Major, fishing with some Serb commander in Bosnia who had the audacity to have him take his flak jacket off, like it was an insult to wear it in his presence, like he was under his protection. Like that makes a difference. Games. I could see the disgust and disappointment in my my former platoon commander's eyes. He wasn't there to play such games. Last I heard of him was from another retired officer of the Dragoons who had gone through military school and training with him. He was home after the war. He was not fairing too well psychologically, I was told. This fellow explained to me that people that cared so keenly and at least attempted to make a real difference in such a war most often paid such a price. Hard to say. I saw the look in his eye when that fellow made him take that flak jacket off. Ray simply didn't like being out of uniform, nor did he have much time nor patience to be played when there was real work to be done.

[flatwater]

It takes courage to love someone unconditionally
It takes courage to take on another family"s children
It takes courage to give without expecting anything in return

Acts of bravery does not necessarily take courage , sometimes it's just dedication to humanity

courage does not mean your not afraid , it means you have set aside that fear to commit a noble act that is far greater then yourself.

And yes WallOstone , sometimes courage and crazy is only seperated by a fine line

for an example , what Evil Kanevel did , did not take courage, he was crazy.
Flatwater :o :o ;D

[wax]

Flat - Wax at the bottom of your pages you say courage is not an emotion but an act of will. This brings about an interesting question because I have seen courage on many different levels and can't agree that it is only an act of will.

Wax- Good question based on what has been observed but I wonder if you really want an answer?

An act of will or an emotion?
Happy, sad, angry, elated, irate... those are all emotions.
The relate to the individual and to the circumstance and in many ways to providence which can be seperated from circumstance because it allows personal stance or preference and yet courage requires something different.

I created that signature on the night of 9-11 but it had nothing... hmm... or at least very little to do with me.

But how to explain?

My father was captured by the United States for doing things that certain rules declared he should not do in the early fifties. His supposed crimes were so... "uncrimeworthy" that he was offered the choice of serving time in prison or signing up to fight in a country called Korea.
Being a small country boy he gladly gave up being locked in a cell to fight for his country.
Many years later he died when I was but a young man and I watched men I had never seen or even heard of before stand next to his grave and sob like children.
"Old men" and "real adults" and some of them were obviously rich but they stood there and cried like little babies at the side of the grave of a "worthless drunk" who had never made an honest dollor in his life!

That is when I first heard the statement, "Courage is not an emotion".
I asked what it meant but the man who spoke it collapsed into the arms of those around him and was spirited away.
Others tried to fill in the emptiness but it really down to one thing:

My father... a nothing hick from Minnesota was sent by his government into a country in which the temperature dropped below freezing with socks for gloves.
He found kids from Georgia with the same problem!
Kids from Georgia... who had never seen ice on the road.

He and these same kids were asked by the government who loved them so much to man a group of guns in some little valley called Chosin.
They were asked to do this without cold weather clothing in the middle of... well they were asked and fully expected to do it!
Many lay down and simply died, never getting up to fight.
Some rushed out in the heat of battle and died simply because they had nothing left to do.
But most came to understand that courage is not an emotion, it is an act of will!

And those acts of will are documented very well.
They didn't fight because they were proud to be Americans.
They didn't fight because they wanted win something.
All they wanted to do was go home.
In the end, they wanted the man next to them to go home.
I don't know what my father did in that war.
All I know is that when he died strong men stood by his grave and wept because he did enough to impact those around him.
he didn't do that through emotion: he didn't do that in anger or in a sorrowful state he did that using courage which is not an emotion! Courage! Which is an act of will alone!

[wax]

Which of course brings us back to the reality of the original claim: "Courage at different levels"

What levels would that be?
Please let me know I am still fairly young at 39 I can still learn.

Others here have read my story and it appears that what you are saying might be true because my father failed ultimately in courage compared to me.
It seems his will let go.

I was four years old when my mother died and my father was in prison. My sister had drowned in a bathtub shortly before and it seems his "will" had left him.
Some people have reached a state of enlightenment and have no problem throwing stones at men like my father but I... well... I chose to accept that something that is not an emotion like courage can not condemn a man who has been raped of will.
4 happens to be a very important number in my life but we are speaking of courage and will now right?

Disregarding "varying" acts of courage of course there is little doubt that war hero or not his will failed upon my mother's death and I was sent to stagnate in the horror of foster care.
I am kidding of course in a way because I know that you are a wonderful foster parent.
I wasn't so "lucky".
I was a farm worker growing up, my younger sister was adopted away to a wonderful family who dissappeared until she was found on the side of a highway in Washington State beaten... bleeding... and three months pregnant.
The State of Minnesota brought her back to be sure but placed her in foster care in the county she was adopted in and I didn't even hear of her story until she turned 18.
The state took her child of course and she hardly ever cries because courage is not an emotion but an act of will.

But where were we again? Mmm... that is right, you have seen examples of varying courage!
By all means...

[wax]

I of course must complete the tail, if for no other reason than explaining 9-11.

We will go quickly so no one gets bored!

My four year old daughter was killed on the side of hiway 169 while I was working twenty miles away. I was stupidly trying to earn money when what she needed was a future!
A man walked up to me during the funeral and laid his head on my shoulder. I hadn't seen him in many years.
His name was Jim and I had been his best buddy in highschool.
He was from a broken home and had joined the army at the age of seventeen and just like everyone else I had declared that he wouldn't make it through basic training!
He did of course but there he was seemingly out of nowhere with his head on my shoulder!

When I stumbled over the next few days he was there to say, "yes absolutely... suicide is an option but you will be there for your son because courage is not an emotion, it is an act of will."
I stumbled alot... in fact there were a few times when I was physically held aloft but courage is not an emotion! It is an act of will!

I know this because of Jim.

[wax]

I call it a tail instead of a tale because well Jim's story is not easy to define.

He would call me out of nowhere but he never called me at random.
His voice would always be shaking and I knew that I was playing a part. I knew that he was calling me to avoid emotion because he could afford it... he was calling me for an act of will!
The first time happened in 1989 and he called me from a cellphone. He was very clear: He had to do something he wasn't "sure" about... something he didn't want to do. But if anything happened I would tell his mother that I loved him very much. He was in Somolia and there were some packages that would come for his brother and his brother's children no matter what!
I of course would absolutely speak to his mother if required.
Because courage is not an emotion, but an act of will!

The next time was 1991, the president was saying things on TV that didn't make a whole lot of sense.
Jim however was very clear: Don't worry, I will do what I can when I can... I just can't talk to my mom right now because I can't handle emotion right now. I assured him that his will was good and that he would serve well!

You see I never told he would live. Not in Somolia, not in Iraq (twice), not in Bosnia... because that is not what he needed to hear! Courage is not an emotion, it is an act of will!

Jim sent me ten thousand dollars in cash! He wasn't taking no for an answer, he wasn't going to discuss it, I would either come to Belize and lie in the surf with him or he would hunt me down and kill me!
Was it a joke? Was his threat real? Does it matter?
Courage is not an emotion, it is an act of will.
My wife allowed it without understanding.
She had courage because she understood willpower.
In truth I would have been there if I had to shoot my way through.

Jim has three wives, two of which are legally recognized by the United States.
He has eight biological children at best guess, two of which he has never seen.
When I met him in Belize he was a Lt Colonel and a Ranger but I have absolutely no idea what that means except the entire time I was with him there were at least two very... unemotional looking young men in the distance at all times.
They had no emotion but Jim had plenty!

Jim had reached the end of whatever line he started.
He had no reason to live anymore.
He had given all the emotion he could ever have to the United States of America and he would never have anymore!
Now you would guess that Jim's mother had died... not true.
Instead... the United States government had decided that Jim was no longer needed in a peaceful world, that his "resource" should be 'downsized'.

He had been offered $50,000.00 to stand down in a small German town and to act as a military Liaison to a small German factory and if he agreed he would receive a salary.

I held the gun myself.
I gave him a choice.
I would have pulled that trigger without question just as I would have put my own dog out of it's misery.
But Jim made the correct choice that misery is fleeting and that courage is not an emotion... it is an act of will!

On 9-11 Jim flew into Afghanistan on Russion transport planes that did not exist! He organized poor men on horseback to take out tanks and he sat in his saddle while tanks fired at him!

I saw him in Chicago just a few months ago.
From a distance he stands as proud and strait as any of our forefather's are assumed to have stood.
But whenever I am close and I look his eye he crumbles for a second... just a second.
And that is the moment when he proves my claim absolutely regardless of any experience you might have!

Courage is NOT an emotion!
It is an act of will and an act of will alone!

[wax]

BTW: In case anyone is confused.
I am Norse, and the Norse were very clear!

I shall not rush my enemy in anger for anger is fleeting and easily lost
I shall not run from my enemy in fear for he will take what is mine and I shall lose all I have worked for
Instead I shall neither seek nor flee from Valhalha.
I shall stand and fulfill my duty at the wall of sheilds for I have courage which does not cry nor does it rage!
I shall stand because I have chosen to stand
And that choice is why I am different!

[wax]

Flatwater- I have seen courage on many different levels and can't agree that it is only an act of will.

Wax- I can't get passed it, I mean there is an absolute chance that I am completely wrong!
You have seen courage on many different levels?

Please... please explain!

In my world courage only has one level.
I have never seen or heard of more than one level of courage.

Martin Luther King stood before many knowing that some wanted him dead. No matter what we might think of his ideas few of us would claim that he did not have courage!
Yet your claim... and again I do no not have any evidence you are right since I have only experienced courage as a yes or no is that everyone around Martin Luther King had courage so his is not all that special right?
I mean after all if there is such a thing as varying degrees of courage then the woman who allowed him to sign into his room had a "varying degree" of courage right?
The punk that shot him must have had a "varying degree" of courage right?
I don't know why we even bother to acknowledge courage!

Of course I am kidding but you do not likely understand that!

You appear to equate courage with a momentary public statement or event and that is extremely sad.
emotion stands up to public officials courage may or may not require...

Well that is where it all comes down to isn't it?
Courage... unlike bravory... requires an absolute.
This shall take place or this shall not take place!
Fools confuse bravory with courage often!

[flatwater]

An act of will requires thought Wax. Emotional courage can have thought also but raw emotional courage is an act without thought. It comes from the gut. As in war wills can be broken through a number of means where emotional courage is not easily broken. Because the motivation can be brought on by hate , fear , but the strongest is love. courage coming from love usually is sacrifice in some form. Pure will can get you started in a race but pure emotion will usually finish it. And we may just be saying the same thing in general with word symantics. Heres a question for you Wax . Where does one get their emotions from and where does one get their will from ?
Flatwater

[wax]

Flatwater - Where does one get their emotions from and where does one get their will from

Wax- Interesting question I guess.
Emotions are reactionary where-as will is formed.
But how to clearly define for the reader?

Hmmm...
I can only do it by historical example:
We have a document in this country known as the Declaration of Independance upon which a group of men signed with the full understanding that if independance were not achieved they would each be executed for treason.
One man... John Hancock... stepped forward first and signed his name much larger and bolder than the rest.
He did this out of emotion.
But he signed out of courage just as every man did.
None of those signators "made a deal" in the coming years of struggle even though all but two were offered it (John Hancock and Samual Adams were denied any leniency by the King) and even though all at some point or time were forced to accept that the evidence pointed to a certain loss concerning independance!
John Hancock actually regreted (at least momentarily) his emotional act of signing his name larger than others when the King singled him out for execution without any chance of changing his fate if circumstance required.

Emotions are formed by circumstance and are always reactionary, but will is accrued by a preponderance of experience and set by the human understanding of "shall".
Shall is a Biblical word but it existed before the Bible and can be witnessed in Babylonian text.
Shall is the best example of "willpower" in that it is both exclusive and inclusive.
This shall not pass!
I will either win the day or lose everything.
Either way shall is an example of my will.

Philosaphy often fails in discussion "rights" precisely because they miss an understanding of will.
Every entity has the right to self defense and it can not be taken away yet philosaphers often often confuse the right of self defense with the right to survive and they are very different.
I can not be stopped from attempting to survive, but my attacker has the right to prevent my attempt.
A newborn child can not be stopped from turning it's head from the fangs at it's throat and trying to scratch at it's attackers eyes because that is will... and ultimately that is courage. But the child does this despite the fact that it it unlikely to be finished with effect.
Emotion is there, the child does cry as it dies, but will is what causes the killer a scratched cornea for it's effort!

[333]

Peace,

Thank you, a nice post to read.

333

[remington]

Courage is not the absence of fear. Courage is being scared and still having the presence of mind to do something.

[remington]

"Courage is being scared to death of something but still saddling up and riding right at it."-John Wayne

[flatwater]

The Duke had a lot of courage when he was fighting Cancer

[remington]

Got that right Flatwater. Wish we had more people like him today. Then again, there will never be another.