Two Gods?

[wax]

This subject came up in another thread but it is such an important topic that I wanted to start a new one.

333- My question is why is God so angry with folks, He can not be All benevolent and Incur wrath on folks?

Wax- This question (or something very similar) is really at the heart of all theology, not just Christianity.
But the very Christian concept of a loving God requires all followers to at least contemplate the apparent problems involved in Biblical text concerning anger and judgement.

There are really two "Gods" in the Bible - or wait, that isn't the right thing to state - God is portrayed in two very different ways in the Bible.

There is the Old Testament God of wrath and the New Testament "Loving Father".

And of course the very basic question of evil, why it exists and how could a loving God allow... in fact create it?

It is such a dangerous question that have encountered the entire gambit of explanations from extreme anger, "How could you even question God?!" to the sureal, "We would not know good if evil did not exist." (Sort of like stomping on a childs toe if they complain of a headache and then explaining that yes, the toe hurts to be sure but the head no longer does!)

Give us an example 333 to get our conversation going.

[333]

Peace,

By all means, the floor is yours, and the thread may stay here, for philosophical ends.

If you like you may copy it and re post in theology to give it equal time as the query fits into both realms.

Thanks

333

[wax]

Ok, I'll start it out:

An all knowing God simply can not pretend to be surprised.
It wouldn't be possible... well let me say it better, he can pretend almost anything I guess but he can't expect me (with the abilities he has endowed me with) to buy into such a "farce".

Stated facts
A: God is all powerful and all knowing
B: God created all things, knowing all possible outcomes from that creation
C: God was forced to destroy his creation in a flood... er... ummm... he was angered that his creation... er... ummm... refer to A:!

It can become a closed loop for those of us who have studied logic and written a computer program that actually works!
Rules are very simple but they can never be broken in a program!

So we will start with the first one:
God created Eve knowing that she would be tempted by the snake he created and knowing that she would fail in that temptation... he then acted surprised that she had failed and was "forced" to punish mankind.

What the ???
But if...
He must have...

No, the fact is that the sequence is very clear.
And Christian theologians have violated every rule of common sense in explaining it.
They have created the concept of "free will" which exists outside the rules of our understanding of God.

The problem with "free will" of course is that God created Eve with the full knowledge of any choice she would ever make!
Sure we can claim that she "might" have decided not to take the apple but God knew that she "would take it.
He knew that it would be offered because he designed the snake in question, he placed it in the tree in question, he designed the apple in question...

And it all comes down to this simple question (simple, yet very dangerous when asked of certain Christian leaders):
What if God "forgives" Satan for doing what he was designed to do? What if Jesus asks Hitler to sit next to you at your father's table for the great feast?
Without some major alterations in current understanding concerning God; he created Hitler knowing exactly what he would do and exactly how he would do it.

If I sharpen a knife I must understand that it can cut me.
If I write a computer program I can not complain later that it is a virus!

So where doers that leave us?

BTW: I do not address these things to destroy faith.
Jesus has declared that all things hidden shall be revealed.
Yet we can not pretend understanding when it does not exist simply to prevent discussion.
God (if our current understanding of what being "all powerful" means is correct) designed me to ask questions, and empowered me to seek answers.
Sometimes i wish he hadn't!

[333]

Peace,


What if God "forgives" Satan for doing what he was designed to do? What if Jesus asks Hitler to sit next to you at your father's table for the great feast?

Without some major alterations in current understanding concerning God; he created Hitler knowing exactly what he would do and exactly how he would do it.

The rules on contradiction are quite clear (a thing can not have and lack a property at the same time), the "major changes" required are not so much "major" as they are more of an adherence to the existing truths/facts/laws.

Sort of like the trouble with our wonderful nation :-[

Contradictions a plenty in human actions/ interpretations of "gods" will.

Still the "evolution" of religion has been the platform on which, society evolved, that enabled us to exercise our free will to converse in this manner.

Ignorance some say "IS" bliss, I would rather ask those dastardly philosophical questions ;)

Wonderful discourse thanks.

333

[bookwormom]

did you guys look at the top of the page what it says right under philosophy?
any non-religious philosophical discussion.

[333]

Peace,

When discussing the philosophical aspects of God and Theology, it must remain in the philosophical realm of reason/logic and not faith. It would seem hypocritical to have a philosophy board and not be allowed to discuss the nature of god in philosophical terms, stoic and logical.

Hence the separation of the two boards, that is not to say the two subjects, theology and philosophy never cross paths, but instead one understands when in the philosophy board, the laws of philosophy apply and when in the theology board the laws of ones spiritual choice apply.

This is a logical discussion of the nature of All That Is, Philosophically.

333

[wax]

I will repost it Bookwormom because I intended to post it in theology and only placed it here by mistake.
But I agree with 333 in that this particular question does have aspects of philosaphy which should be seperated from the question of theology.

[macgeoghagen]

It all becomes a little easier to comprehend if you remember a few things.
1. God has free will, and can change the future. God does what He wants to, when He wants to. he may be nice to somebody, send somebody else a trial to work through, call people to meet judgement via painful death, etc. God has hope in us, and would probably rather not kill us all with flood and fire.

2. humans have free will, and can change the future. they have choices to make all the time. choices have consequences, many of them painful. If enough choose to walk away from God, or attack those that God likes, it can make Him angry.

[wax]

Wow Mac I can not believe I am more than a month late in responding to this post (been way too busy).

Good answer in one specific way but it presents a real problem: What if all humans "chose" to become "good" tomorrow?
No more war, no more famine, no more... well... you know.

That would also mean no more anti-Christ and no more Armageddon and no more... well... truth concerning Biblical text right?
Prophecy is sad yet sort of funny at the same time because your approach would need to include the fact that Jesus might not have been hung on a cross right?
After all, those involved could have "chosen" not to right?
MMmmm...
The problem with that of course is then the entire Bible is open to fallibility right?
We can't have it both ways: Either Jesus knew he would be sacrificed or he lied in his own text.
"Free Will" is funny that way: if it does exist then it must be predetermined in order for the Bible to be correct right?
Mary could have chosen to abort Jesus right?
Peter could have chosen to run away and not deny Jesus three times before the cock crowed right?
If so... as modern "free willers" would claim then please explain the predictions of both prior to the acts.
If the Bible is right then Jesus knew Peter would deny him three times which negates any claim of "free will" right?

[FZRaven]

I had a nice little response I was going to write out, but I've had a little to much home brew. so instead of writing something that might later make me look like a drunkard, I'll wait till a little later.

But I will say Wax, to me is on the right track.

[B00kW0rm]

wax wrote:
"If the Bible is right then Jesus knew Peter would deny him three times which negates any claim of "free will" right? "

May I suggest: fore knowledge of the outcome of a particular situation does not equal manipulation of said situation.

(I hoped I phrased that in an understandable way:-))

[FZRaven]

The bible states that we as humans have free will, If we truly have free will that precludes destiny, or prophecy if you will. The bible states that there will be a revelation, that in itself goes against free will. As wax said, what if everyone on earth was to become "good". Of course I'm referring to the good that the bible talks about, sense that's what this topic is about. So if everyone was to follow the bible to the tee, we would in effect negate God's will. If he still choose to follow through with the revelation, he would negate our free will, we wouldn't have free will. You can't say this is going to happen, and know for sure it's going to happen if you assume that there is such a thing as true free will.

It's said that God knows everything that's a person is going to do before he is born, again how can you have free will if your path is already set? It would not be free will, it would be destiny. Also if we believe that Satan is the source of evil in the world, we have to blame God. God created everything, Satan would have to have been created by God. If I remember correctly Satan is a fallen angel, created by God himself. So when God created adam and eve and knows everything that a person is going to do before they are born, than God before even creating man would have know that eve would eat of the fruit. So really God damned man for something he knew was going to happen, so when you get right down to it God himself sent us into a life of sin.

So God sat around let Satan become the source of all evil in the world, created adam and eve knowing that they would sin. Now we are punished for, what if you really look at it he knew would happen, yet he choose to sit on his throne and do nothing to stop the series of events. So when we track it all right back to the source, God is the source of all evil. Any evil that exists in this world would have been created by him. He created Satan (lucifer, the morning star) knowing full well what he would become, yet still created him.

[333]

Peace,

To the philosophical ends of this wonderful discourse, the bible is not the only active spiritual text in the world. Frankly it is one of the youngest as well as the most evangelical. As with all text designed to impart some sense of morality through the culutural legends of antiquity bring the new and next generation into the sytem of belief thought by that culture which supports it to be the best way to instill morality amongst its people.

This is to say that , philosophically, man created god or gods to explain things his science or understanding could not. The conundrum, science still creates more questions than it answers, so... faith is an intergral part of existence.

Free will is exactly that, you are free to choose not to read other religious text. You are free to read all the twelve living religious text. You are free to choose anarchy or free to choose tyrranny. As we look around we see these choices being made every minute of every day by everyone. The more knowledge one chooses to expose oneself to the less chance there is in the belief of complete fatalism , or for that matter complete freewill. The middle ground seems to be the best bet.

[wax]

333- The conundrum, science still creates more questions than it answers, so... faith is an intergral part of existence.

Wax - to be sure

333- The middle ground seems to be the best bet.

Wax- Hmm... oh... you see that is where my personal trouble starts. Right there in the middle ground!
If I had been living in Berlin in 1938 could I have taken "the middle ground" and still expect acceptance for such a stance?

Human nature is not defined but s clearly represented by human history and as such it is at least safe to say that the "middle ground" has not been the accepted norm in any way.
Philosaphy dictates that a conclusion be reached.
Yes all Gods are but creation yet faith is intergral....

One could theoretically convince oneself that existance is variable.
But then... the same possible mistake would exist right?

[flatwater]

Let me ask all of you this question. We all know that if we all had total freedom , this world would be in terrible shape. So when you say Gods people have freedom of choice that is true but as it is with any ruling authority there are guide lines. No one can be totally free. I know that it says if you know the truth it shall set you free but not only do you have to know it but you have to be willing to follow the truth as well.
Flatwater

[flatwater]

So my question is are you 100 percent sure YOU know the truth or is it a deception by an entity that wants you to believe in a humanist concept.?
Flatwater

[wax]

flatwater - We all know that if we all had total freedom , this world would be in terrible shape.

wax- I am not certain I understand the meaning.
Let us assume that the noodnicks are right and there is no "God" in that no one entity(s) control things.
There would still be a defining structure and limits.

Take the modern concept of the natural world for example.
Without a "God" rules are established as natural instinct and natural law.
If that can be taken as fact then the natural world operates very well without any "ruling authority".
Those that can kill... kill; while those that can escape... escape.

Mankind existed in this construct for a very long time whether one believes in Biblical creation or classical evolution with the one glaring difference of course concerning oversight.

I have never been a "humanist".
In fact in my youth I would have been described best as an "inhumanist" in that I believed man was an animal and nothing more.
I still have those leanings at times and I often think that people give man too much credit while denying greatness where it actually is deserved.
Man is the ultimate pack predator and he has proven his ability to adapt enough to convince himself he doesn't need to!
Our rules are not much different than any pack predator.
Shockingly neither are "Gods"!

Of the ten big rules (there are actually many more commandments than ten but we often narrow things down) only the first three have anything to do with God.
The rest are basic rules of pack society.
Thou shalt not covet thy brother's kill; for he is a paranoid bastard and may attack without cause!

There are those who see some sort of devine inspiration in this and... I believe that is a right and it should not be harrassed.
But there are others who feel that man's nature is no different than the average wolf.
We will work together because it is expedient to do so.
Because we are historically pack animals most of us follow while a few must lead.
But the society we create is a false construction simply to mimic our tendancies in a more natural state.

[wax]

Flatwater- or is it a deception by an entity that wants you to believe in a humanist concept

Wax- truly one of the great questions for theology!
I once had a man when faced with geological dating declare that Satan had only placed dinosaur bones in the ground to confuse man...
This of course would include the statement that God created Satan to confuse man and not allow him access to truthful information.
But the conversation turned a bit:
When it was proven that light travels at a constant speed and thus the stars which we see could not have produced the light we see within the last 6,000 years as certain Christians claim the man strongly declared, "Satan aged the light!"

One simply can not argue the logic of that!
Yes, absolutely! Everything we observe may be perverted in any given property by God.
Were it not for Jesus himself declaring that such matters are without meaning and that "all things hidden shal be revealed" I would have no choice but to deny Christianity.
Fortunately for me he solved the problem.

But in doing so he created one for those Christians who want to claim knowledge they can not have.
I don't need to know the answers to such questions, only believe in Christ and his pathway to Heaven.
I have been forbidden from barring the gate against any of my brothers because only God can do that.
I see alot of so called Christians trying to do just that.

[MHinFox]

Normally I stay way away from these type discussions even though I throughly enjoy them....too many here seem to get upset by these views....that being said just wanted to throw in one thought I did not see covered. Lets look at it as possibly, another reason as well. Will use a canning example to make my point. God is turning and prepping his fine garden products. He knows how to can with the best of them. While canning his fine growth he knows that sometimes no matter that he did everything right a few jars might break. He knows this but continues to can because he knows the final product will turn out good enough to be the treasure he looks for. ...In other words he might know that certain bad things are part of the process but he allows them to follow free will because he already knows the outcome will put so much joy in his heart in the end...just another thought here...hope I offended none.

[333]

Peace,

You have not upset anyone, the topic is difficult for some, the concepts of theology and philosophy are very different but they often intersect in various topics of discussion.

333

[wax]

fox - he knows that sometimes no matter that he did everything right a few jars might break.... hope I offended none.

wax- As already said you have not upset me. But I am a bit confused.
I am confused by "no matter what he did... a few jars might break".

FACT: "God" either exists or he does not.
FACT: "God" is either all powerful or he is not.

Um... Are you suggesting that yes he exists but like a human he is not all powerful?
Indeed if he is all powerful then there can be no human qualities added to him like "no matter what he does etc" because well... obviously it would not apply!
If he is not all powerful of course then why worship him?

[cubcadet]

Ok, I'll start it out:

An all knowing God simply can not pretend to be surprised.
It wouldn't be possible... well let me say it better, he can pretend almost anything I guess but he can't expect me (with the abilities he has endowed me with) to buy into such a "farce".

Stated facts
A: God is all powerful and all knowing
B: God created all things, knowing all possible outcomes from that creation
C: God was forced to destroy his creation in a flood... er... ummm... he was angered that his creation... er... ummm... refer to A:!

It can become a closed loop for those of us who have studied logic and written a computer program that actually works!
Rules are very simple but they can never be broken in a program!

So we will start with the first one:
God created Eve knowing that she would be tempted by the snake he created and knowing that she would fail in that temptation... he then acted surprised that she had failed and was "forced" to punish mankind.

What the ???
But if...
He must have...

No, the fact is that the sequence is very clear.
And Christian theologians have violated every rule of common sense in explaining it.
They have created the concept of "free will" which exists outside the rules of our understanding of God.

The problem with "free will" of course is that God created Eve with the full knowledge of any choice she would ever make!
Sure we can claim that she "might" have decided not to take the apple but God knew that she "would take it.
He knew that it would be offered because he designed the snake in question, he placed it in the tree in question, he designed the apple in question...

And it all comes down to this simple question (simple, yet very dangerous when asked of certain Christian leaders):
What if God "forgives" Satan for doing what he was designed to do? What if Jesus asks Hitler to sit next to you at your father's table for the great feast?
Without some major alterations in current understanding concerning God; he created Hitler knowing exactly what he would do and exactly how he would do it.

If I sharpen a knife I must understand that it can cut me.
If I write a computer program I can not complain later that it is a virus!

So where doers that leave us?

BTW: I do not address these things to destroy faith.
Jesus has declared that all things hidden shall be revealed.
Yet we can not pretend understanding when it does not exist simply to prevent discussion.
God (if our current understanding of what being "all powerful" means is correct) designed me to ask questions, and empowered me to seek answers.
Sometimes i wish he hadn't!

There are so many fallacies in your post, that it would be futile to argue against any of them.

[cubcadet]

For instance, the title- You didn`t enumerate enough gods- there are many gods- elohims- otherwise it would be impossible to violate the 1st commandment.

"God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods." Ps 82:1

Secondly, you are probably trying to pin `dualism` on God. That is a cabalistic doctrine.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isa 45:7

"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Ex 15:3

"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!" Lu 12:49

`But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.` Lu 23:34

[offgridbob]

By the way God never acted surprised by mans original sin

[333]

Peace,

Hey folks,

Nice to see some old thought experiments being "resurrected", lol

Philosophy deals in wisdom and facts, truth. Theology deals and faith and beliefs.

This is to say that just because a person or culture "believes" a thing to be "truth" does not necessarily make it a "truth."

The Western big three acknowledge the (325 Ce) council of Nicea's definition of "All that Is" or "God"

1- All Powerful
2- All Knowing
3- All Present
4- All Merciful
5- Eternal
6- Singular

Old testament or new precludes many other spiritual texts for reference. Fallacies are part of the mission to arrive at truth. Especially in the process of doing Philosophy. The scientific method prevails.

With the greatest respect, and inquiry, How could a perfect "God" as defined by the parameters above, create an imperfect, being, in this case Man.?

333

[cubcadet]

With the greatest respect, and inquiry, How could a perfect "God" as defined by the parameters above, create an imperfect, being, in this case Man.?

333[/QUOTE]

Well He did, now didn`t He?

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter. Prov 25:2

[Grizzy]

Peace,

Hey folks,

Nice to see some old thought experiments being "resurrected", lol

Philosophy deals in wisdom and facts, truth. Theology deals and faith and beliefs.

This is to say that just because a person or culture "believes" a thing to be "truth" does not necessarily make it a "truth."

The Western big three acknowledge the (325 Ce) council of Nicea's definition of "All that Is" or "God"

1- All Powerful
2- All Knowing
3- All Present
4- All Merciful
5- Eternal
6- Singular

Old testament or new precludes many other spiritual texts for reference. Fallacies are part of the mission to arrive at truth. Especially in the process of doing Philosophy. The scientific method prevails.

With the greatest respect, and inquiry, How could a perfect "God" as defined by the parameters above, create an imperfect, being, in this case Man.?

333

What a good question!

But here is another.. to begin with in order to answer Your question.

How could the Creator reveal himself and be Truly Known if all of his creation was made perfect.. never stumbling in sin? How could the Creator ever truly reveal his Justice, Patience and Mercy? Wouldn't those attributes be forever veiled if not demonstrated?

Be Strong
~Grizzy~

[bookwormom]

what gives you the idea you are created imperfect when you are a work in progress? How could God create you perfect without you experiencing evil, choosing good, resisting temptation, and, when failing, asking forgiveness? What would you be if you were "created perfect?" an automaton?

[333]

Peace,

I pose this,.... that the "creation" we know as "mankind" is perfect, problem solved, as far as the imperfection of "All That Is" in her imperfect creation.

Just as every blossom on every flower, how ever different they, truly are, are they not, still all, "perfect"?

So it is with mankind. The imperfection surfaces in mankind's "free will", this is to say his or her choices are imperfect. Hence the action arising from those erroneous choices are the evil, we experience.

The human experience measures itself based on the duality of "JOY" versus "DESPAIR", hate and love, pain and pleasure. One can not, as said above, by Grizzy, be "KNOWN" with out the other.

333

[Grizzy]

In Post 25, 333 said:
Philosophy deals in wisdom and facts, truth. Theology deals and faith and beliefs.

In Post 29, 333 said:
Just as every blossom on every flower, how ever different they, truly are, are they not, still all, "perfect"?

I really do like what 333 said there.. I do believe it does applies to nature, although not to mankind.

The Original Post poses the question:

There are really two "Gods" in the Bible - or wait, that isn't the right thing to state - God is portrayed in two very different ways in the Bible.

There is the Old Testament God of wrath and the New Testament "Loving Father".

And of course the very basic question of evil, why it exists and how could a loving God allow... in fact create it?


John 15:1-27
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.


Each of us must identify the "Vine" from which we come. That is the origin of our Wisdom, Facts and Truth.

I AM that I AM of the Bible.. desires to be Glorified. In the interacting as husbandman, we see God chasten and bless in the cultivation of a people from whom perfect fruit is desired, and obtainable, through the merciful Grace He provides us in the Lord Jesus. This is how the book, the Bible reads.

We Live and Die by the Choices We Make.
It is up to us to seek out Truth and be very careful in the decisions we make. For all that we are and will become are hinged on those resolutions.

I do not know the philosophy of other gods. When I made my choice to accept I AM that I AM.. something began to happen. Although He created a perfect creation in mankind, the blemish of sin followed me and will always be there to tease and tempt. In my struggle to get to know God.. my fruit slowly changed as a personal relationship began. I, the created, began to change. It was not a belief system I kept in my mind, it became a journey of defeat mixed with victory.. as my branch leaves were pruned and watered and nourished by the Husbandman.

The God of theologians became real, not a discussion and not a concept.
He has brought me through fire. He has set me in safe places. He has an expected end for me.

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end"
(Jeremiah 29:11).

Through this passage, the Lord not only teaches us that in sovereignty, He has already prepared an ending for our lives, but that His plan will be one of peace and goodness. We are to gain comfort and relief in knowing that the Lord has our best interest at heart.

Free will? Absolutely. Two Gods? Not really.. just one who will never leave nor forsaken His own.. a good Father who chastens and blesses and helps His little ones to grow into what we were designed to be.. well loved and walking in Obedience.. under His Shadow.. AFTER we choose Him.

If I have crossed forum boundary from Theology to Religion, I apologize. I answered the original post from the only resource book I truly trust.

Wisdom, Facts and Truth... separating the wheat from the chaff.

Be Strong
~Grizzy~

[flatblack]

This seems appropos;

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.


Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.


Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?


Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”


-Epicurus, BC 341-270


...


Just who is this "God" character anyway??