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333
03-28-2007, 07:15 AM
Peace,

Morality

The Declaration of Independence asserts that all human beings possess certain inalienable rights, including the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
These rights are supposed to apply to all people no matter what society they live in. Many Americans today, however, would no longer agree that there are such universal rights.
In their view, morality is relative to individuals, to cultures, or to religions.

Subjective Absolutism

The view that what makes an action right is that one approves of it.

According to this view, morality is a matter of personal preference. When we say that an action is right, we are merely saying that we approve of it. Although this view may help explain the plethora of moral opinions, it can not possible be correct because it leads to a logical contradiction.

Subjective Relativism

The doctrine that what makes an action right for some one is that it is approved by that person-- claims that moral judgments are always relative to the individual.

When ever someone says an action is right, what she means is that it is right for her. Nothing is absolutely right or wrong, just as nothing is absolutely big or small. To understand a moral judgment, then, you have to know who made it.

Although subjective relativism may seem admirably egalitarian in that it considers everyone's moral judgments to be as good as everyone else's it has some rather bizzare consequences. For one thing, it implies that each of us is morally infallible.

Emotivism

The doctrine that moral utterances are expression of emotions.

In defense of the notion that morality is subjective some have gone as far as to claim that moral utterances are neither true or false. Some things we say do not have a truth value.
Consider these utterances, Hooray!, Bravo!, Boo!, Hiss!.
These are exclamations rather than statements. They serve to express emotions rather than to make claims. As a result, none of them is true or false.

According to Emotivism, all moral utterances (utterances that use the term "right" and "wrong") are expression of emotion. If we say, for example, that abortion is right, what we are saying, in effect, is "Abortion Hooray!" Moral discourse is more than just cheering and jeering, however. It follows, then that emotivism can not be correct. Words like "good" and "bad" do not stand for properties or features of anything.

Cultural Relativism

The doctrine that what makes an action right is that it is approved by one's culture.

Unlike subjective relativism, cultural relativism does not imply that individuals are morally infallible. But it does imply that cultures are morally infallible. Cultures make moral law, so cultures can do no wrong.
If cultures were morally infallible, however, it would be impossible to disagree with ones culture and be right.
If a society approves of slavery, for example, then slavery is right. These are some of the problems people face when determining what is the Moral Truth.

333
04-03-2007, 11:31 AM
Peace,

Its pretty tough to defend ones beliefs when you can't use the excuse,

Because I said so, or some one else said so, or worse the infamous "they" say so.

A belief/truth is a valued idea, common to all, in order to have any "moral" standard.

That is to say;

If given a choice as you read this right now, Choose , Life or Death.

Life would be unanimous.

As close to moral standard as It gets IMHO, probably why we find it in the declaration of independence.

Liberty or Slavery

Happy or Unhappy

Sovereign or Subject

From choices such as these and others, in turn, we develop our beliefs/ values, morals and principles.\, in the end virtue/ truth.

If given the choice between killing, for a belief and, not having to kill for a belief, I believe, again, unanimously a rational person would choose not to kill.

333

wax
07-09-2007, 10:02 AM
333- If given a choice as you read this right now, Choose , Life or Death. Life would be unanimous.

Wax- No it wouldn't.
And logic dictates that it wouldn't.

Setting aside the fact that we know a given percentage of any population is suicidal at any given time and would choose death over life if that choice were supported by another party... the example does not give a reason for the choice offered.

Example: If I choose to die, my son will be given a chance to live. If I choose to live he will be executed.
I of course would choose to die.

It is sort of like asking, "Here is your choice, yes or no".
There just be a context in order for the choice to be valid.

wax
07-09-2007, 10:07 AM
BTW: At the start of our nations revolutionary period which led to war, most wanted subject over sovereignty. Even after the population was angered by the actions of the king in question many chose to leave the free states and migrate both north to Canada where they could remain loyal subjects and south to central America where they could start new subject colonies.

333
07-14-2007, 04:22 AM
Peace,

Of course they did, leave and choose to be subject, it is all they knew, and the easy choice besides, who in their right mind would take on the most powerful nation on earth at that time? Those that remained how ever unanimously chose sovereignty, as they had tasted such liberty being so isolated and independent on their own for generations already.

My own family was divided and like you said some chose to remain loyal to the crown and did migrate to Canada. However the rest stayed and sided with General Herkimer, fortified up with their neighbors against the British and their Indian cohorts. They knew the price of such liberty had to be paid for and chose to cast their lot to live free or die free, not subject to anyone other then their own impetus.

A logical and balanced mind would chose life, over death with possible exceptions based on the choices you stated before, myself or my child. However that was not the parameters or situation I posed. Their are for certain a myriad of circumstances to refute such a "questionaire" as you inferred but in its simplicity overwhelmingly folks ,I believe would chose life.

333

wax
07-15-2007, 05:43 AM
333- However that was not the parameters or situation I posed.

Wax- OK... I must have simply missed those parameters.

I would say that a simplistic choice would not only find a majority who choose life over death but that we have biological mechanisms and insticts which require that choice.

Man does not simply lay down and die... but a percentage do.

333
07-27-2007, 08:24 AM
Peace,

Man does not simply lay down and die... but a percentage do.

What percent would you speculate that is? Some survivors of the nazis, I was fortunate to speak with placed capitulation at around 60 - 70 %, I mean really what choice did they have around such fascists. Death or submit and wait patiently for their opportunity to do something, or wait for rescue.

Can't say I blame them when house holds, business's, farms and such have been in your family for many generations, one would do what is needed to keep them. But...... they also put the numbers of "lay down and die" as you put it, rather high or higher then I would have guessed.

When grandma made the exodus from Paris in 1940 with the Nazis not far behind and the Italian air force strafing their column of people migrating away, she put the number around 30 %, of folks just gave up and waited to die. Capture and slave/work camps being just as good as death.

333

wax
07-28-2007, 09:45 AM
I would say that I agree with your overall numbers.

There are obviously variables in any given situation but overall there appears to be a 30/30/30/10 breakdown.

Whether we are discussing a Nazi like political mechanism or a violent survival scenerio, around 30 percent will simply choose to give up and die.
Another 30 percent or so will follow whatever leadership has to offer, whatever leadership is stonger or at least appears to be more secure.

A remaining 30 percent will tend toward resistance of anything undesired, whether that be rule under Nazis or death by starvation.

And a "magical" 10 percent will act quickly, violently, and with resolve.
I say magical not because it is supernatural in any way, but a number of studies have indicated that ten percent is an absolute concerning such leadership in survival situations. Also a number of other odd "absolutes"; like the terminal limit on any biological or chemical epidemic.
For some odd reason, it appears to be a natural limit of some sort.

We see that ten percent come into play during every extinction event (from the Dinosauria to modern Elephants). *

Take flight 93 on 9-11 for example of the breakdown in question:
In any group of 40 people, there are only about four that a hostage taker needs to be concerned about (and that is the number estimated to have fought to gain the cabin).
The other 36 will follow directions no matter what those directions are... they will simply follow.
But that ten percent are a very real problem!

The odd thing is that profilers can not accurately predict what individuals will comprise that ten percent.
You would think it would be easy but it is not and that is why all tyranny is eventually surprised in some way by them.

We often think of the policeman, the fireman, the X-high school football quarterback but studies show that these sorts are just as likely to be in the 30 percent who give up as in the 10 percent who violently struggle.
It is often a complete surprise: the flight attendant who was always shy, the businessman who didn't like to take financial risks.

The middle 30 percent can be swayed during a struggle (it is estimated by some that above the ten percent who initiated and carried through the attempt to regain control a large number did follow up and secure terrorists in the rear sections of the plane once they were overcome).
But they will never make the difference between success or failure. * *