Dairy cattle

[ozarksnick]

I am considering adding a dairy cow to my farm for this coming year.

I am looking for a smaller breed animal that will do well solely on pasture/hay.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks!

[walls0stone]

if you want any production you'll need to apply more than just a little hay. Grain, in contradiction to what the ethonal croud wants to tell you, is good for making milk.

Holstine/Jerrsy cross and look out for Cull Cows.

[ozarksnick]

"Production" is not my primary concern.

I just want a single animal that I can feed myself, and growing pasture is much more efficient than growing grain.

I've been reading a lot about Dexter cattle tonight, anyone have any thoughts on them?

[WileyCoyote]

Oh, ozarknick, I am all about Dexters! They are in our three-year plan for self-sufficiency.
Here's the org link - http://www.purebreddextercattle.org/

And the chat room http://dextercattle.proboards84.com/index.cgi

They have 16% butterfat in their milk, which is my primary goal - I want butter, cream, and cheese, couldn't care less about the 'bluejohn' leftovers. They are smaller and can forage on half of what a big cow does. They are also bred for temperament, a "family cow" so that they are amenable to halters and being hand-led.

Bookwormmom on this forum raises them and can tell you more. Deberosa who used to be a moderator here got me excited about them. I've talked to some folks online near me and they seem to be all about breeding the best and most productive herds.

[ozarksnick]

The more I read about Dexters, the more excited I'm getting about them.

I wanted a small animal that I could feed myself like I mentioned earlier. There's no way that I can grow enough grain to feed one, but I believe that I can grow enough grass.

Not to mention that cows aren't supposed to eat grain anyway.

I'd also been hesitant to get my own cow because I didn't want to waste the milk my wife and I couldn't use. But I also plan to raise a pig this coming year, and I understand that pigs do real well on cow's milk. So I won't be wasting the extra milk and cream.

I had always thought that I'd get a goat or two for milk. But I really like my cheese and butter and I much prefer cow's milk cheese to goat's, and I understand it is very difficult to get enough cream from a goat to produce butter. Not to mention that it sounds as though a Dexter cow is much better behaved than your average goat.

Also, I am intrigued by the possibility of using Dexter as oxen. http://www.purebreddextercattle.org/Articles/Oxen.htm I don't use any petroleum-fueled machines on my farm, but I reckon sometime I will run into a job too big for me to physically do myself. And I always figured I'd get a horse or mule. But A couple dexter oxen would fit my philosophy of life much better than a mule.

Anyway, thank you for your reply.

[WileyCoyote]

I've milked goats, and pastuerized and processed the milk, and there really isn't enough butterfat content for me (I eat LOTS of butter and cheese). And goats have many different personalities - but most of them are stubborn and like to protest milking by using their horns and sharp hooves. That plus the flavor of the milk is off-putting to me. You can always give chickens all sorts of leftovers, milk included and or mixed in, and they think it is a treat.

Yes the oxen idea is intriguing; but I will have cows I think and buy straws for AI to keep them pregnant, also to keep the herd diverse. It is cheaper than feeding and caring for a bull. I don't really want to use my milk stock for labor. We may try to find a mule for our work; mules are not well thought of here and can be gotten cheaply.

The main reason I want the Dexters is that our property (like the rest of the area) will not support a large amount of cattle, and not many cows will forage here in winter. The natural grass is good but you have to be VERY careful not to overgraze it and end up with a dust bowl. Most ranches here average 1,000 to 2,000 acres and they have to rotational-graze them. We don't have nearly that much property and I don't want it grazed to a nub. A mixture of grains and hay in the winter to keep their spirits and body weight up as well as to make them even more domesticated is our goal, so we have set aside some acreage to grow grain as well. Smaller, easier-to-handle cows that forage well and produce good butterfat is our goal; DH and I are older and he has trouble getting around... although animals do tend to make a 'pet' of him! ;D

Glad I could get you as excited as we are!

[ozarksnick]

Wiley, have you read Gene Logsdon's "All Flesh is Grass"? Very good book, though I'm just into the first couple chapters.

[MooseToo]

i'm all for self-sufficiency - but, sometimes, one must evaluate all sides of an issue - draft animals are an excellent idea, but, that animal must be fed and maintained 24/7/365 - and it WON'T be utilized on that same schedule - in a rough comparison, any mechanized assist item has to be fed ONLY when it is used - i guess the flip side of that, though, is that when times get really tough you're not gonna be able to eat that old tractor -
decisions, decisions, decisions ..........

[lsg]

I love my Dexters.

[ozarksnick]

i'm all for self-sufficiency - but, sometimes, one must evaluate all sides of an issue - draft animals are an excellent idea, but, that animal must be fed and maintained 24/7/365 - and it WON'T be utilized on that same schedule - in a rough comparison, any mechanized assist item *has to be fed ONLY when it is used - i guess the flip side of that, though, is that when times get really tough you're not gonna be able to eat that old tractor -
decisions, decisions, decisions ..........

The problem is how do you obtain the fuel for the draft animal versus the machine?

The fuel for the oxen grows in my backyard without much help from me, I just have to collect it. The fuel for a tractor ... not so much.

And when the ox gets too old to work (as you mentioned) I have beef and I keep a steer from the cow to train in its place.

When the machine gets too old it becomes an ungainly yard ornament and I have yet to see one reproduce.

[MooseToo]

i'll have you know that, in my area, those yard ornaments you belittle are quite common - in fact, some folks seem to think "the more, the better" -

[walls0stone]

First off, If your working 3 hours a day for less than a gallon of milk, that's not spending money or time wisely. You'd be better off to barter with the farmer next door for some other service. I'm sorry, but as a farmer, it makes no sence to put all that time and work into a critter for less than half of what a do-da get's for a mop job.

Don't forget about vet bills. If your animal puts out less value in milk that you pump into care, you lost money and spending money wisely is part of keeping out of debt.

Also, fear the farm fad. Oxen could be a fun past time, with a productive result. Still, a tractor has it's upside to. It only eats when you work it and If you go away for some reason, you don't need to worry about it. I'm not saying Don't but I am tired of the farm fad folks who say oh we should all go back to the oxen. Do you know how many oxen it would take to feed everyone?

we run 1970's tractors, they are in top shape.... do what yo uwant but I do wish in general that people would think a little harder about result vs. input.

[WileyCoyote]

Very true, walls0stone. When cost effectiveness compares unfavorably with a passing passion, it makes no sense to invest in a 'farm fad'.

And, ozarknick, when an oxen gets too old to work, you might end up with tough old meat that is fit only for boiling - if you are lucky.

I used to run a 1947 John Deere over 1,000 acres for my stepdad, and it took a lot less maintenance, and it did a lot more work a lot faster, than an ox! Many folks don't take the cost of THEIR TIME into their equations. If an ox eats $100 of food in a week, and plows or hauls or works 10-16 hours a day, clearing or plowing 100 acres, and a tractor uses $100 worth of fuel in a week, works a 10-16 hour day but plows or clears 500 acres, then the tractor has a better output. One has to weigh all differentials very carefully - plus the cost of maintenance, equipage (plows, harnesses, etc) and all costs should be factored in before one can make a real determination about cost effectiveness. No sense in going fiscally under just because one wants to 'return to the old ways'. BUT if you don't have that large of a property to deal with, if an ox can handle the smaller acreage and can produce calves or meat, these are other factors also. "I don't buy nothin fer purty." Getting the crops planted before it gets too hot or too late in the year, getting the harvest in, in between rain and bad weather and the first frost - speed is sometimes a factor, and weather ALWAYS is.

I've already given my reasons for the Dexters; we have no family to come help milk or care for the crops, no one to put to work on a tractor nor an ox, and no one to do these things but ourselves - as well as no one to provide for but ourselves. So for us, a smaller, easly-managed bovine breed that gives us what we want for less investment overall than the larger breeds, plus a higher butterfat content for what we want, is optimum. So is a small farm tractor - the land is too hilly and sandy, and the property too small, for a large tractor. And I want my cows for breeding and milk, not oxen and pulling and the resultant heavy increase in grain feed-ups. Different people have different ways of looking at and dealing with their very different goals.

[ozarksnick]

Suffice to say that most of you all have a very different way of looking at things than I do.

Thank you for all the input. I think I've found what I need to know.

[MooseToo]

i'll have you know that, in my area, those yard ornaments you belittle are quite common - in fact, some folks seem to think "the more, the better" -

ozarksnick - please don't take my post as any sort of put-down - i was actually making fun of what i see all around me - and i don't have to look much farther than my front yard -
i think more folks would be doing things your way if we had the drive and the stamina - but, a great many of us really are old farts -

[ozarksnick]

ozarksnick - please don't take my post as any sort of put-down - i was actually making fun of what i see all around me - and i don't have to look much farther than my front yard -
i think more folks would be doing things your way if we had the drive and the stamina - but, a great many of us really are old farts -


Haha ... glad you wrote this. I couldn't figure out how to read that first statement! ;D

I think it is very important to relearn how to do things on a more realistic scale. Cheap fuel is gone forever, and we're in real trouble if we can't remember how to do things for ourselves.

[WileyCoyote]

I wasn't putting you down, either, ozarksnick - just making the point that property size, goals, and cost effectiveness are all different for everyone on this board.

And while cheap gas may never return, large scale farms and ranches here can file for subsidies for fuel - and do. The smaller guys don't have that option. Since DH is disabled and walks with a cane, an ox is not practical - his balance and the ox's determination may be a poor fit. He can't get up onto a horse or mule without physical assistance, which would leave all of the plow guidance/riding to me. With a small tractor he can do the work required withut my help. Each one of us has the challenges of our property, our abilities, and our goals - and I can't dismiss anyone out of hand because I don't know what theirs are.

[lsg]

i'll have you know that, in my area, those yard ornaments you belittle are quite common - in fact, some folks seem to think "the more, the better" -
We have quite a few of those scattered about the farm. DH says it is all good stuff, and that might need a part off of it some time. ::)

[walls0stone]

Subsity is just gov sell out, thought this sight was about self sustaining life? *no offence WC, just a comment.

I'm seeing many farm fad that hide in the cloke of independence. Along with some practices. Some fellows insist on milking by hand. I've even seen a very very foolish book insisting that the milking machine is bad. Ironicly they also want to sell you handmilking products. *

If someone is going to be self supporting,
(folks in general, no one here in this post) then they should look at the thing they want and then say, can I do it well enough to save?

If someone wants to have a job, hand milk a cow, feed chickens, tend a garden, Brew beer, sheer sheep, build a windmill, dig a well, and go see your kids first home run, *well.... maybe you'd rather trade some fire wood to the farm next door and get some of his raw milk in Kind. *

Sure have'n a cow is fun but if your not getting a return on the investment, chicken or power saw, whatever... then it's not worth have'n. *We are all only human and only have so many hours in a day. *actualy a Semmitall would also do you well. Good production and animal for milk and meat.

[ozarksnick]

Wiley, I know you weren't putting me down. I understand that everyone has different ideals. We're scratching the surface of a topic with much deeper roots though.

Walls, you seem to be headlong into the world's economic system as per your comments concerning "production," "input/output" and didn't I see someone ask what my time was worth on this thread?

Suffice to say, Walls, that my time is so incredibly valuable to me that I would much rather make my own living than have to prostitute myself out to some corporation in order to make enough coins to pay someone to do my living for me. In fact, my time is so incredibly valuable to me that I feel completely and utterly cheated when I open a paycheck to see what that company thinks my time is worth.

There are things in this world worth more than the absolute utmost of production. There are things in this world worth taking more time to do them. There are things in this world worth doing the "less efficient way."

You put down folks who think milking machines are bad. In my view, all motorized machines are bad. Because it causes forces people to be yoked to the corporations that make the machines and the corporations that make the fuel that power the machines.

I can understand that machines help folks who cannot physically do the job themselves, as per Wiley's comments. However, in my opinion that's what friends, neighbors and family are supposed to be for. And why don't we have friends, family and neighbors any more? I believe that generally speaking it is due to the advent of motorized machines.

But that is a topic far beyond the scope of my question about dairy cattle.

Edited to add: Sorry for getting a little riled up for this post. ;D

[MooseToo]

ozarks - i can tell you exactly what the problem is with people like you -

there just ain't enough of you -

it's so easy for many of us to gauge success by the home we live in, the vehicle in our drive or the neat stuff we have - all the while forgetting that the only place success truly exists is between the ears -

[GoodDaughter]

I'll poke my nose in here...

I've been thinking about getting a pair of Dexters, too. For a variety of reasons. I'd like to have milk and to be able to make dairy products too. I am looking at having a partially disabled brother move in with me 'someday', when my elderly parents are gone. He is not able to make a living (legally blind and severely arthritic but otherwise in good health) and won't be able to be on his own later in life. I'll be looking at him living with me and providing for him. (He does not get government disablilty but has earned some money as a gunsmith and stock maker). Smaller cattle would be ideal for me, both now and later.

Of course, I don't plan on pulling loads, plowing with anything other than a tiller, & etc. I try to live low-tech, with things I can manage myself. I can manage tiller repair, chainsaw repair, etc., but I don't know how I would manage tractor repair.

[ms-woman]

Ozarks its quite alright to get riled. To each their own! Walls apparently can't /won't understand that I enjoy milking by hand. I believe that its time well spent, and really if you only have one cow, it doesn't take that long to milk.


About different breeds of dairy cows, I don't know about your area but Dexters are unknown here where I live, what about Jerseys? They are much more common, they are small cows with a very high butter fat %, and they don't give as much milk as say a Holstein. A holstein gives an awful lot of milk, if you have a use for it that might be an idea, feeding your hogs and chickens, etc... But they don't have the butterfat content that the other breeds do. Some people use the steers for oxen b/c they are large. A holstein cow if mated with a beef breed will have a good calf to raise for slaughter. You really just have to weigh the options, what do you want the most.

Walls mentioned Simmentals they are a wonderful dual-purpose cow, if you can find any in your area. Great mothers, foragers and they are also really good beef cows. Don't know the specifics on milk production and butter fat content but I don't think they give a huge amount of milk, being a dual purpose they use some of their food to put on meat and fat whereas a pure dairy breed uses their food to make milk. That's why dairy breeds are skinny or "sharp" that is a desirable trait. It means they are doing what they are supposed to do. Make milk!

[walls0stone]

If you actualy enjoy milking by hand well Yipp Yipp yahoo.. had my day in hell milking cows and from a practical point of view I don't understand the thrill.

Also, I myself wish to make the point to some newbee's to this life that as much as it's nice to do it ALL the Old way, you MUST draw a line some place, unless I'm the only person here with only a 24 hour day. :) *I've YET to meet one person who can give me an answer other than they like it. * Fine sure it's your answer, but I'm speaking from the perspective of a person who is about a self supporting life that is also effective. *If the Amish use milkers I would to....but God help me, I'll never own a milk cow AGAIN :)

[walls0stone]

.

Walls, you seem to be headlong into the world's economic system as per your comments concerning "production," "input/output" and didn't I see someone ask what my time was worth on this thread?

Suffice to say, Walls, that my time is so incredibly valuable to me that I would much rather make my own living than have to prostitute myself out to some corporation in order to make enough coins to pay someone to do my living for me. In fact, my time is so incredibly valuable to me that I feel completely and utterly cheated when I open a paycheck to see what that company thinks my time is worth.

There are things in this world worth more than the absolute utmost of production. There are things in this world worth taking more time to do them. There are things in this world worth doing the "less efficient way."
D

love it how you can't just have an idea with out pissing everone off chill OUT... why don't you ponder something for once rather than lashing out... I never said boo in anger or what ever... remember I"M NOT BILL

But I do see plenty of people who will pro-mo and idea (like milking) will then offer to sell you all you need to get started. "hey I'm an expert, I wrote a book, now get all your equipment from me" * so who what's to BE A JOHN? *make sence?

I have valuable time as well. Can't pay my taxes working for "the man" *that's why*I own companies and don't work for them. *

no matter what, if a person spends 30 mins fooling with a cow just go get less than a gallon of milk, then that's time you COULD have spent fixing the tractor. *That's time YOU COULD have spent with your kids and wife..

Who cares if it's money or some other comodity, *you can not put in XXX and get back X and stay around long. Even people who lived 200 years ago on the barter system understood this idea. * *

don't get to sucked in by all the dooms day stuff. *Many small business is doing great. Gun Sales, Woodstoves, my local butcher is swamped. *It's the urbanites who are in trouble...that has NO effect on me. I just started another company! *How? I use my time in a wisely and have the tools to get the job done. NO one was judging you.. you just provoked a thought. *

[ozarksnick]

I've YET to meet one person who can give me an answer other than they like it.

Here are three reasons I would like to keep a cow (other than the fact that I like it).

But (and this is very important) all of the reasons below have to be viewed in the light that it would not cost me a single penny to keep a cow.

The first reason that I would keep a cow is not for its milk. But for its manure. In exchange for eating my surplus grass and other fodder it would give me some of the richest manure available thereby increasing the productivity of my land.

The second reason would be milk. We don't use a lot of milk but we do like some. There is no way we could use up a gallon a day. Although any surplus could easily help feed a pig.

The third reason would be for labor. I know many here do not like the idea of their milk cow being a draft animal. But in the past it was done, and it could be done again.

Fine sure it's your answer, but I'm speaking from the perspective of a person who is about a self supporting life that is also effective.

The difference is that (it sounds to me as though) you are trying to live that life within the bounds of the current consumer system. I am trying to live as far outside it as possible.

You say that the time spent piddling with a cow could be spent fixing your tractor or with your wife and kids.

But how much did that tractor cost you? How much time away from your wife and kids did you spend earning that money? Or worse, did you buy the tractor on credit so that now you are forced to spend that time away from the wife and kids in order to satisfy your debt obligations?

I think we're getting closer to the root of our difference of viewpoint though.

It sounds as though you are a very wealthy man. You own many companies that you do not have to work for. Congratulations.

I am shall we say ... not. And I have no desire to be so. I have no desire to own any companies whatsoever.

I have no desire to work my tail off in my younger years (of which I only have a very few left) sacrificing my family to get to the point where you are at.

I simply desire to live on my land, without the need for money. And a milk cow would, I believe, be an important aspect of that goal.