I want to have a meat animal or two...help please.

[Clair_Schwan]

I have chickens and turkeys, but would like to have a meat animal or two that can graze on my pasture during most of the year.

Any suggestions? I have a couple of acres to dedicate to animals, and can build housing for them. My objective is to have something that I can slaughter easily without having to use heavy equipment or assistance.

I am considering sheep and goats.

Clair

[Drawbar]

If you like Lamb I would go with sheep.

Grazing: Sheep love weeds so after a bit of time, you can actually improve your pastures by just having sheep graze on them. They also graze down to 3 inch height which is pretty short. They also don't eat a lot, about 4 pounds of dry matter a day which is nothing. They also don't need a fancy fencing system to keep them in: some electronet, an inexpensive charger and you are off to the races. Goats are masters at getting out of fences. Sheep require very little grain or water...they get most of that off the vegetation they are eating.

Meat: Is there anything better then lamb? Besides that, a lamb can be purchased in the spring and slaughtered by fall. No need to winter an animal on a pasture that is not growing grass. There are very few animals you can do this with. A co-worker has some beef cows and to be self-sustained, he has been raising them for three years and has yet to slaughter an animal...that is a lot of winter feed to buy for food and not to mention now having 5 animals at his homestead. If you are selling meat for profit, lamb fetches about a dollar to a dollar and a half MORE per pound then beef.

Size: Cattle can be intimidating, they are massive in size, eat a lot and its actually cheaper to buy a half a side of beef then raise it yourself. Sheep are quite different. Unlike cows that take 1 acre per animal, you can 6-10 sheep per acre depending on pasture quality. At about 50 pounds of meat per sheep, you are getting more meat then beef per year (cattle =500 pounds for two years work per acre, while sheep will give you 600 pounds of meat every two years per acre). Also you can maneuver sheep quite easily and be amazed when you set the darn things on their rumps and watch them go passive.

Breeding: Sheep have a 200%-300% birthing rate. This adds up after only a few years. That is because sheep birth in twins and triplets. Cows typically only have one animal per birth. So in 5 years time you could have 6 cows requiring 6 acres of ground, and still be only able to slaughter 3 animals that year, or have 40 sheep on six acres and be able to slaughter all of them. (Did I mention Lamb pays over a dollar a more per pound then beef?)

Housing: Sheep require NONE, even here in cold Maine. Sheep have wool that keeps them warm. If they can get out of the wind (behind trees)then you are actually better off leaving them on pasture then building a shed or barn. Putting them in a barn tends to give them pneumonia and other illnesses.

Wool: It can be somewhat profitable if you buy the right breed, shear them yourselves and have a market for the wool. If nothing else you can keep the wool for your own use, or even treat it with borax and use it for insulation in your own home. It has many, many uses.

I can go on and on, but when I realized I had to get the family farm back into livestock, I had a choice between sheep and cattle. For these reasons, and many others not fully explained, I went with sheep. They have their problems too, but overall return on investment,and price per pound per acre, sheep are a great option.

[MooseToo]

i really do appreciate the time you devote to providing info for us know-nothings - there's a lot of meat on the bones of your posts - thanks !

[Clair_Schwan]

Drawbar:

Thanks for the great response. I was leaning toward sheep rather heavily, but Ellen doesn't like the idea of eating something we raised. Especially something fury and friendly.

Anyway, how do you keep the sheep safe from predators? We have lots of coyotes around here. I am considering a Great Pyrenees, but I don't like the idea of it barking throughout the night. Any advice?

Clair

[walls0stone]

hey Clair,
we have a lot of Coyotes here, actualy from what we've seen, they are more like the prediters of northeren Canada, big and agressive. What some folks I know personaly do, is they have a pair of Donkeys running with 200 sheep.

a Donkey will kick and fight back, so it helps. the local Hoof trimmer just told me if wanted a horse or donkey, they are going very very cheep latly. Or you could find a person with one and just "barrow it" you feed it on your pasture and give him grain...untill you don't need it any more.

[Deberosa]

What about pigs? We are finding they are really quite easy to raise. Just got three more yesterday. We have 6 now in an acre of brush fenced in and they disappear in it for most of the day. They also grow really fast.

The first one goes to the butcher in a few weeks so we'll find out what the taste it like but I am betting he'll be really good!

[Drawbar]

i really do appreciate the time you devote to providing info for us know-nothings - there's a lot of meat on the bones of your posts - thanks !

Thanks...

The truth is I am reverting the family farm back to sheep after a 30 year absence so I just got done drawing up a 78 page official Farm Plan on the reasons why I am doing that. The facts and figures quoted were just off the top of my head on why sheep are better fiscally then beef. I have nothing against beef by any means, but I was amazed when I did the market analysis and return on investment statements. The sheep numbers really work.

Incidentally, hair sheep like Dorpers and Katadin's did not pan out out. While it would be nice not having to shear them, they get a 15% reduction in price at the local market because they are "an improved breed" and aren't much interest to the ethic population. They also have a tendency to lamb with single births...I could shear a lot of sheep and have a taghe ma hal of sheep shearing rooms for what I figure it would cost me in loss of lamb production just because of the hair breeds.

I really am not as knowledgeable as people think. Right now I am looking for information on a Comprehensive Nutrient Management Plan so I can get my livestock permit for these sheep, and still have to draw up a grazing plan. If anyone has information on those two things, let me know so I can get some information from you. I kind of need help in these areas.

[Drawbar]

Drawbar:Thanks for the great response. I was leaning toward sheep rather heavily, but Ellen doesn't like the idea of eating something we raised. Especially something fury and friendly.

She says that now, she will not think so once she raises her own meat. Your own meat tastes good...easpecially grass fed meat.

Incidentally BEFORE you bring your sheep home, do a lot of research on grass fed sheep. Right now people are getting rid of their sheep because of high grain prices. Its a good time to get into grass fed sheep because you won't need to get into any grain bills. The thing is though...grain is the short cut to livestock feeding. Its actually more trouble to grass feed animals...just sending them out to pasture will not cut it...they need other nutrients that grain provides. You need to factor those other nutrients in if you want healthy sheep, and healthy sheep are better tasting and give better wool to boot.

Anyway, how do you keep the sheep safe from predators? We have lots of coyotes around here. I am considering a Great Pyrenees, but I don't like the idea of it barking throughout the night. Any advice?

A donkey is a great idea. Its especially appealing since they eat the same food (grass and hay) as the sheep, but do require their own shots...in other words you can't use what you use on sheep on a donkey. My neighbor has sheep, and she uses a donkey and we live in coyote country ourselves. They will work...literally...if the idea of pulling wood and other chores with draft animals appeals to you. It might be a good way to pull double-duty out of a livestock animal.

Myself I wanted one just so I could tell the wife for once "you got a nice Ass there Hon". Okay bad pun there but a Great Pyrenees seems like a better fit for me. Their prices are all over the board. A sheep breeder/GP breeder in MN sells them for 700 bucks,while another in Ohio offered four to me last week for 50 bucks apiece. The shipping would have been too much,so Ifound some inthe local shelters for less money. Will they guard alright coming from non-farm homes? I don't know but I am not rich either, and they only have to save a lamb or two to make them be worth while fiscally.

[Drawbar]

Hey I just thought of some more information for you. I did research regarding sheep slaughtering, and while this pertains to Maine and Maine only, and Lamb Meat that cannot be resold...it has to be consumed by the sheep's owner...it only costs about 60 bucks to have a sheep slaughtered. That's about a buck a pound since you get 50-60 pounds out of a sheep. You can also do it yourself if you are so inclined and save a lot of money.

As for your friend, she might feel blue for a day or so, but Lamb is an excellent meat and raising it yourself tastes so good. Most people feel this way. Both of my wives (I have an ex) said they could not eat self-raised animals, but both preferred it after trying it. The taste difference is incredible over store bought meat.

Incidentally, Debrosa's idea of pigs is not a bad idea either. They are a bit more grain dependent then sheep, but they grow quickly and taste good as well.

[walls0stone]

I take any animal I'm going to eat to the butcher. I feel that it's better becouse he's got an eye for the work and would not give me anything I didn't want. When it's all said and done, I have freezer wraped, all set to go meat. and I didn't need to buy any of the equipment.

I think that people get over the feelings after a wile. but if we all want to get back to the old way, we can't forget, that to comes with a price.

[tiggermeriffic]

Have you thought about Irish dexter cows. They are dual purpose meat and milk and they are small and can forage well. They are not as big as normal bovine so when you slaughter them you don't have so much meat you don't know what to do with it all. There is alot of info on them on the internet just type in irish dexters and you will have tons of info.

[Deberosa]

Have you thought about Irish dexter cows. *They are dual purpose meat and milk and they are small and can forage well. *They are not as big as normal bovine so when you slaughter them you don't have so much meat you don't know what to do with it all. *There is alot of info on them on the internet just type in irish dexters and you will have tons of info.
I agree - we have Irish Dexter's also along with the pigs. Also Turkeys and chickens for meat (Kurt won't eat rabbit!).

[ms-woman]

The Great Pyrenees are great dogs. The first one I got was an older dog not a little puppy( 1 yr old) and he is wonderful with our goats. Great Pyrenees are a little different from other breeds they are nocturnal which is good because that is when the predators are out. Also a great pyrenees has a longer infancy, they take two years to mature fully. The optimal time to add a puppy to a herd is about 4 months of age, but mine did great at a year. He had never been around other animals until we put him in the pasture we watched him closely for a few days but he took right to it. He helps the nannies clean up after birth and cleans the kids and even helped keep a few warm that were born in the early spring. He doesn't bother the chickens that free range in the pasture and even guards them from fox and such. They have been bred for centuries to guard the flock its their nature to "guard" whatever you put them in with. It would be a good idea to get a puppy or buy from someone that has treated them right, I don't know how one that had been abused might act with helpless animals, and any other animal is pretty much helpless compared to them. They will wade right in to a pack of coyotes and commence to whoppin tails, I've read that they will even take on bears. Our male does not have a lot of human contact and that is the way some people think they should be raised but when I'm in the pasture he loves to be scratched and groomed, my female is more a pet and she is very protective of the family(she guards us) if someone walks into my yard they better not walk towards my kids she gets between them. I didn't have to train her she just picked up on me being protective of them. All in all they need something to guard and I love the breed they are wonderful with kids or animals, but yeah they bark alot at night. One thing is when you go to the pasture in the morning you still have what you had the night before!

The only problem we've had with a donkey is that he wouldn't let our buck "service" the nannies. As soon as we took him out of the pasture the buck went right to work. The donkey worked out better with our cows, the bull set him straight about who was the boss! My FIL had a donkey that killed one of his bucks, picked him up by the back of his neck and shook him til he died. Don't know if all of them act like that maybe its just the males. Good Luck!

[walls0stone]

those dogs are scary as all get out.. when we go spot lighting here, they come out to the truck to take the tires off.

I think it's mostly the jacks that get that way.

[Clair_Schwan]

Thanks all,

I thought of miniature cows (I assumed they were too costly, but will check into it) and pigs, but dismissed the idea of pigs because they aren't really a pasture animal.

The donkey sounds better than the barking dog at night. I have heard great things about the Great Pyr, but the barking just wouldn't go well. I like the quiet.

Thanks again for all the input.

Clair

[Drawbar]

Just so you know Donkey's Bray which might wake the neighbors...I am not saying that's bad...you got to have something to fend of the coyotes that typically attack just before dawn (4 AM or so).

Keep in mind that coyotes are cunning like thief's. Eradication is a wasted effort (hunted heavily), so about the only thing you can do is try to keep them away. A Great Pyrenees is a canine and it "talks" coyote talk. The barking might bother the neighbors, but in truth its mother nature in communication "Hey Wiley coyote, you stay away from my sheep, and we can remain friends."

Don't you remember the cartoons on TV when the sheep dog beats the crap out of Wiley Coyote and yet in the end they punch their time cards and say "see you tomorrow Ralph." Its honestly how a Great Pyrenees and coyote work.

Hunting is not really effective because often times older dominate coyotes "learn the rules." They know the sheep are off limits. I have heard of stories where these coyotes have been hunted and the younger coyotes have came in and posed a problem for sheep farmers that never existed before.

If it sounds like I have a love/hate relationship with the coyote, you are right. I've hunted them, but I would never look to eradicate them. They actually are very smart and kind of get my respect for that.

[walls0stone]

yea Yodies in the north are smart a can be...and they hunt you when you hunt them. nothing like hide'n in the snowy dark in Feburary..sounding like a wounded bunny, no lights..and a pack of those big wild beasts going round and round you yipping and howle'n... but if your not a little on edge when you do it, then ya probly also enjoyed war a little to much. :)

Donkys bray at 4 and 4 every day. any other time they bray, you have a problem and should go out to see what's up. Eather the Dog or the Donkey should not make sounds for no reason...not like "pets" that just Yap.

[ms-woman]

Just a little to add to the Great Pyrenees, I've been laid up for almost a month now from 2 recent surgeries and my husband has been taking care of my garden and the dogs. Well he put our female up about a week ago b/c he thought she was going into heat. Some critter has taken a liken to our pole beans, b/c Massey wasn't out there barking. Turned out she wasn't in heat and we've let her out of the pen, checked this morning and nothing else has been nibbled on! At night she has been patrolling my garden! She knew that I spent a lot of time there and that it was important to me so she just added that to her nightly rounds! These are such smart dogs :)

[mistyriver]

We raise and free range sheep here in Idaho. Used to have suffolks and now we raise only southdowns.
Don't think of sheep as friendly...they aren't. Even the bottle lambs who start off friendly eventually revert to sheepness.
We thought we'd have a hard time sending them off to "freezer camp". We didn't. The first taste of a home raised lamb chop was heaven.
We also run 2 Great Pyrenees with the flock since we are in Grizzly, wolf and cougar country. We've never lost a lamb and they are great family dogs too.

[MooseToo]

i've often heard that the most meat by the pound for the least cost by the dollar can be had with free-ranged geese -

[bookwormom]

quote by Drawbar
Incidentally, hair sheep like Dorpers and Katadin's did not pan out out. While it would be nice not having to shear them, they get a 15% reduction in price at the local market because they are "an improved breed" and aren't much interest to the ethic population. They also have a tendency to lamb with single births...I could shear a lot of sheep and have a taghe ma hal of sheep shearing rooms for what I figure it would cost me in loss of lamb production just because of the hair breeds.

Ouch, Katahdins is what we have got.
If I had only a couple of acres and was going to raise a couple of sheep I sure would not get a donkey. Make sure you have some shelter where you can lock them up at night. we lock up our goats and sheep, they get their treat in their shed and go in gladly. Better safe than sorry.

[bookwormom]

oh, I can second everything about the G.Pyrs. we love ours. she patrols along the fences and we hear her in the distance. She barks when there is something to bark about. If I stand there she will sit next to me and put her head under my hand, even wiggle it out of a pocket. we bred her once and planned on keeping a male, so she had six girls. We have one left.

[quietH2O]

RE
"Anyway, how do you keep the sheep safe from predators? We have lots of coyotes around here. I am considering a Great Pyrenees, but I don't like the idea of it barking throughout the night. Any advice?"

This has been a particularly bad year for coyotes in our area. We have two packs that have bred on our property (we only have 10 acres). So we have sighted a dozen or so. at a time.

Have you considered a llama? A 3+ year old neutered male works best. (Make sure he is neutered, or he will kill your ewes, by trying to mount them.) We have one and the coyotes seem to be deterred from even coming near the livestock when he is in with them.

They are very protective of their "friends." They are very perceptive and seem to know if a foreigner in the pasture intends harm or not. If coyotes, or dogs for that matter, do venture in among the flock the llama has two very sharp, vicious toe nails on each front foot. He will stomp any predator until he has literally skinned it alive. I've even heard of them taking on cougar.

You might want to read up on predator dogs. Even your neighbor's dog can actually be more harmful to sheep than coyotes. A pair of dogs will take out dozens of sheep in one night - just for sport. While a pack of coyotes will only kill one sheep/lamb at a time for food.

We acquired our llama by watching feed store posting boards and want ads. We found a llama farmer who was looking to downsize his males. We got him free - only had to pay to have him neutered ($65 or so). He tends to forage things that are out of reach for the sheep, like tall blackberries. Another "bennie" is that he has wonderful wool for hand spinning. And he has a gentle temperament. He's really an enjoyable animal!!

Good luck!

[walls0stone]

I'd like to interject that in other posts.and on other sights, the friction between sportsmen and land owners is a bit crazy. If one has a problem with over population of unwanted critters...groundhogs, crows coyotes, wild hogs..you name it... can be fixed by making friends with sportsmen...inviting them to hunt whatever you wish them to hunt, and remove the problem, thus giving you peace of mind that your protective critter is a barn yard animal who may never need to do his job.

In being friends with many locals who love to kill ground hogs..I got rid of the buggers..and if you extend the favor to local cops..you might get out of a few speeing tickeets ;)

[quietH2O]

I appreciate this and I concur wholeheartedly. I just wasn't sure how the suggestion of hunting would be received here, but we have done just that. We invited our friend who is an avid hunter to come help us out with the situation. But we have only succeeded in taking care of two of the pups. Both were females, however; so at least there's 10 or more pups who won't be added to the problem next season.

It is next to impossible to entirely alleviate predators by hunting alone. So for those of us who feel the need to protect our livestock I've found our llama to be effective, because his very presence seems to discourage any violent attempts, thus averting harm to both livestock and guardian animal. I think this is one of the advantages of the llama. :)

[fnfredux]

I have goats and sheep. Sheep need more care. Goats get into more trouble. I happen to like lamb, many don't. I tried goat once. It didn't taste bad, as a matter of fact, that was the problem, it had NO taste. He was a three year old wether, purely pasture fed with maybe a cup of corn a day. It was the leanest meat I have ever seen. Luckily I was able to sell the rest of the meat to friends, had repeat customers.
I guess if the goat actually had some flavor (folks have told me that penning about a month before slaughter and feeding more grain and hay would produce more fat and thus more flavor) I would chose them for ease of raising. Sheep are more prone to deficiencies in minerals than goats. Sheep (traditional types) need to be shorn, and in my opinion seem to be more prone to parasites of all kinds. Goats are browsers also which is a big plus. They eat all kinds of vegetation (as in clean up your brush) sheep are grazers.
Between the two, goats are the better bet. Lets not forget the milk/cheese aspect.
I did manage to milk my very tame and gentle ewe, (it was a struggle tho) when she had a lamb that had to be kept inside (born tiny and weak) and I have seen at least one business (dairy and cheese) based on sheep milk.
Goats, on the other hand have been bred to be dairy animals (if you buy a dairy breed for does) and give a good amount of milk. Cheese is easily made from that milk.
If you wanted to raise your own meat, your best bet would be to start with a couple of dairy does and breed them to a meat breed like Kiko (better than Boer) or Boer.
The kids they throw will be big and a good healthy cross.
Wether the bucklings, keep the does. Next year with another kidding from the first two does wether the bucklings, slaughter the ones from the previous year.Judge your doelings born last year do you wan to breed them? If the answer is yes, now you have four breeding does and probably two doelings from this year. Following sp[ring you will have four does kidding, probably twins for all, now you have probably 4 kids tho wether, four does to sell, AND you can pick over three generations to keep the BEST and sell the rest. With two acres you won't want to keep more than four adult does.
Four years from start to finish with meat and milk all along. After that if you keep four adult does you will get 4 wethers to raise for food and four does to sell every spring. The does might bring at least half of the feed bill for the year. Meanwhile you also have in addition to meat, milk and cheese.
I'd say if you haven't tried goat meat, find a store that sells it, try it, if you like it goats will be just the ticket. Incidentally, not many people realize it, but world wide goat is the most wide eaten meat and goat milk is the most widely drunk milk.

[fnfredux]

Keeping your goats/sheep safe. DOGS that is the answer. We have a motley crew of herders/guard dogs. One Lab/Pyrenees mix who wandered in and found work, one Jack Russel Terrier that really throws herself into her job, and the most recent employee a 90 lb (believe it or not) Black and Tan Coon Hound. These guys learned the job from my German Shorthaired Pointers (they're getting a little older now) and passed it on to each other. The big plus with dogs over other guard animals like llamas or donkeys is that your dogs will seek and destroy predators like coyotes. Also coyotes being canines will avoid areas marked by bigger more dominant canines. We were troubled by coyotes and I lost a couple of kids to them til Big John showed up. I didn't let my GSPs out overnight... BG keeps his rounds and now that he has been join by Widget who like a true terrier is on constant alert and sounds the alarm and Millie who is dogged and determine...well we no longer hear the coyotes howl... silence, a golden sound if your have herd animals.

[EarthMother]

"I thought of miniature cows (I assumed they were too costly, but will check into it) and pigs, but dismissed the idea of pigs because they aren't really a pasture animal."

Pigs can be pastured. I'm not sure about the full size hogs, We have started with pot bellied pigs. We haven't butchered or eaten one yet, I am just waiting for a weekend when I will have some help. The Vietnameize (?) have been eating them for years.

I looked at the small cattle. They werer running about $750.00 each. I am thinking real hard about sheep plus a small mule.

Good luck and God's blessings on your choices.

[WileyCoyote]

Dexters are not 'miniature cows' - their size is standard. There are other bovine breeds that have been bred to be small, breeding smaller with smaller until the breeder has miniatures. There are even miniature Angus!

Because I don't like goat's milk - and it hasn't got the butterfat I want - I will be going with Dexters eventually. The breed seems expensive, but what they will cost in forage (half of a large cow) and vet bills (they are bred to be hardy) balances this out.

I won't buy a cow to butcher, or a heifer; but any bullocks they produce upon breeding for the milk 'freshening' I'd probably steer and fatten for the meat. AI (artificial insemination) is cheaper than raising a full-grown bull to stud size to breed my cows. Unless I get to where I can afford to keep a bull for breeding - or have a really good line to breed, and the time and money it takes to keep him that way - I'll stick with AI and cows.