I would like some land, and a roof...

[Steve_L]

I'm new to the board. I want to become independent. Seems the first thing to do is get some land, and a roof over our heads.

I've been reading about Dorthy Ainsworth and how she bought land and built this great home with money she made as a waitress. I donno, maybe I don't make that much. I have some money set aside.

Where do you go to buy land? Looking at the world wide web seems to be a big mistake; very expensive land with all kinds of covenents. I want to raise chickens, rabits, maybe some goats or a small cow...

How much money do I need? What state? I don't even know where to begin.

[ol_hoot]

Where are you starting from Steve L ?

[ol_hoot]

Might be some good locations close by.
Might have to look at relocating.
Depends what YOU have in mind.

Do you have skills that will provide you and yours an income ?

[Steve_L]

Where are you starting from Steve L ?

Start? You mean, location wise?

I live in a small town in Washington State. I commute into Seattle to work. I have a house, but I'd like to get a few acres. There are farms around here, but they are all way out of my price range.

I'd love to retire from my full time job at 55, (about 3 1/2 years away) and get a homestead, homeschool my daughter, and maybe do a telecommute job.

How do people do it?

[Steve_L]

Might be some good locations close by.
Might have to look at relocating.
Depends what YOU have in mind.

Do you have skills that will provide you and yours an income ?

Skills? Not really. I've got a BS in physics, a BS in EE, and I'm about to finish a master's in physics. I've 20+ years working as an avionics engineer. Not many places hire many Avionics engineers, there's this place, and that one in France.... It is suprising how so much education and experience is useless, what with H1B vias and all, doing the work that Americans won't do. ::)

I think I'd like to get my PE licence and work virtual/telecommute, or maybe for the Gooberment. Or maybe some high school or Junior college would allow me to teach physics or math . I was thinking I might be able to start a small business designing robot parts and selling them on the web. I know how to set up an Apache website.

I could relocate. I can't afford to live around here.

[machinemaker]

Steve L
I would suggest that you might want to take your education and find a nitch area for self employment that is not overly location dependent. I was at a seminar that was to educate safety and loss managers on the risk of arc flash from electrical work and the "personnel protective equipment" required for employees. During this lecture series one of the speakers was a retired EE that worked as a consultant by accessing the arc potential at different areas in industrial plants. I am sure that he did spend a few days on site, but after making notes, gathering drawings and taking some digital photos, he went back to his home office and churned out the numbers and a report. Why all of this? Because I would guess that he could charge $100 -$200 an hour for this specialized service. Things like this help in that you can live outside of the metro areas, (Eastern Washington maybe) commute into Seattle a few times a month and only spend half your time away from whats important in life. This is similar to what I do. My academic background is the fine arts and engineering. My passion is sculpting, but the mechanical stuff has always been the financial base. after 20 years in manufacturing, I started my own business doing what I did best for others. I have a machine shop and steel fab shop here at the house. A great tax benefit of having it here, a tax benefit to be self employed and the commute is short. I have a few corporations that I build custom manufacturing equipment and components for an hour away down in Denver. Typical shop rates for my competitors are $75-150 an hour and I tend to be on the low end of that. This give me the time to do the industrial work part time and sculpt and work on home projects the rest of the time. Because I am used to working full time and sculpting part time in the past now I work part time, sculpt part time and do improvements to our home and property.

Anyways, it is possible, find a solution, make a plan, and do it.
kent

[Steve_L]

;D Wow! You're my hero! I want to be like you when I grow up.!!!

I also want to be like Jackie Clay and Dorthy Ainsworth, but I'm the wrong gender for that. ;)

[machinemaker]

Steve,
You and I live outside of expensive metropolitan areas and we have to make money, but it is possible to do that where we live. There is a reason that some areas have cheap land prices, either the climate or geography is bad or you can't earn a living there! I see ads for cheap land even here in Colorado, but all that grows there is sage brush, pinion pine and a rare antelope, ie desert with no water. I choose to buy a piece of land in a mountain pass at 9500' elevation, it was less expensive, we have some space, but no growing season. We do have a green house with rabbits and chickens. However, I love the mountains, I had room and zoning to build a shop and studio. However, it would be nice to live at a lower elevation. My advice for what its worth is pay off all debts, favorite authors are Mary Hunt and Dave Ramsey; live simply and have a simple philosophy of living happy, with passion and direction. I grew up in southwest Oregon and have thought of returning to eastern Oregon as a place where possibly we could afford. I like the concept of earthships and passive solar heat and living off grid, I think that you have to take the best ideas and tailor them to each location and lifestyle. how does the rest of the family feel about your ideas. I am very lucky to have married a woman who has the same ideals and we work well together. That was not the case with my first wife when my kids were young like yours. Maybe its the engineer part of me, but this is like any other large, long term project: research, plan, timeline and goal.

[kawalekm]

Hello Steve
When we decided to buy our land, we typed out a cover letter outlining what we wanted and mailed it out to realtors in areas we were interested in. *The Altas of California help us pinpoint those areas. *We selected regions with low population density, enough rainfall for natural forest cover, and within 1 tank of gas. *I agree that most internet properties are junk. *I think they are advertised on the net because that can't be sold more conventially. *We finally got in touch with an agricultural realtor that understood what a homestead was and helped up find the 50 acre oak woodland property that we finally bought. *Here's a picture of our land...

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/kawalekm/Andyhuntinggroundsquirels.jpg

Yes, this is California, the most densely populated state in the nation. *Still, you can find something affordable if you give up ammenites like electrical, water, and phone service. *One of the requirements we spelled out to realtors is that hunting and shooting be legal ON the property. *That turned out to be an excellent way to "weed out" yuppie style vacation properties. *We can't see our nearest neighbor whom is about 1/4 mile away, but we can hear them when they run their generator. *The terrain is somewhat hilly, so it is safe to shoot in any direction without worrying about a bullet going through someone's window. *Our land is twenty miles up a dirt road, we have to generate our own electricty, and cell phones don't work, but the area is livable.

Another plus is that the cabin we're finishing is not visible from the road. *You have to go through a locked gate and drive about 800 feet before you come to our cabin. *Other, roadside neighbors, have reported break-ins because troublemakers can see their cabins while driving by. *The other highly critical item to look at is water. *What are the water sources for the property and who controls them. *In Washington you'll need a source of water for June, July, and August. *We have a drilled well, with no restrictions on pumping, so we supply all our water that way. *I am also in the planning stage for a rooftop collection system, as an alternative to the well. *Rooftop collection might be an even better option in a wetter area like western Washington. *I'm planting a 1 acre orchard with just about everything you can think of, and hope that it will provide a good portion of our total food supply in the future.

We purchased the land with a home-equity loan from our credit union. *We decided to keep both our jobs and live in town till the land and house are both payed off. *It's tough paying two mortages at the same time, but we know that the land is a prize that will last more than a lifetime! For you, don't think you have to relocate to find a dream property. You might still be better off staying where you are and finding something you can afford within driving distance. I think the biggest problems with starting a homestead are faced by those people who quit their jobs, put a down payment, and then try to figure out how to pay for it all.

[Steve_L]

Yes. I want to do what Kawalekm did. The thing about hunting is cleaver! Interesting way to make sure you don't end up in yuppie land. Actually, I'm looking for a place with few zoning laws, and where you don't need a permit to do every little thing. The laws in California are getting a bit too "big government" for me.

From what I've read, you can expect to pay for land a bit more than the timber is worth on it, OR 10x the value of a crop that you can grow on it.

Maybe I should look at Nevada desert, hydroponic greenhouse gardening, waterless composting toilets, and Moisture evaporators. :)

[bee_pipes]

Depends on how hung up you are on staying in the west. There's lots of stuff out there, just away from population centers (as mentioned above). I like Tennessee. The building codes are fairly lax when compared to more built up areas. These folks are nuts about hunting and fishing. If you want something fancy, like water front - that'll cost ya. Water front is easily sold to rich city folk. I'm happy just being 15 minutes from the river. Also in less danger of flooding. Tennessee does have gun laws, but I think they are concerned with the minimum number of weapons that must be on hand and maximum barrel lengths (I kid). I'm not much of a carpenter, but I can throw up any silly old thing that has use without worrying about the neighbors calling in the law - they have their own yard contraptions. One trick I've heard is to put horizontal beams along the bottom of poles on buildings. The horizontal beam is a skid, making it a movable building so that is will not be a taxable fixed structure.

We worked to get the old house paid off. My wife retired on a small pension and we sold the old house and parlayed the money into 48 acres and a house. I kept commuting to Nashville for another three months - 1 hr 45 mins. each way. I don't recommend it - gas was just barely breaking $2 a gallon then.

We probably could have gotten cheaper land, but I couldn't ask my wife to live in a tent while I built a house. Our place has a double wide with a nice porch, well and electric. We own two hollows, the ridge in between, and our sides of the ridges bordering the hollows. The first hollow, where the house it, is cleared and we use it for livestock and garden. The rest is wooded and we use that to make our own lumber for building projects. It has two small ponds and a creek, plus a number of springs. The ponds are low, but we have plans to dig out the springs. The creek is steady, even through the past drought, and we have plans for damming it for irrigation and hydro.

I think I might have been through this county once, on a trip with my wife, but had never heard of it or had any idea where it was. We found a local realtor on the web. He's sort of a big fish in a little pond. Most of the other folks were good old boys doing business with their cronies. He got his stuff on the web, put in a lot of shoe leather pounding the roads around here, and is eating all the other realtors alive. Pick your areas and try to find a local guy like that. Heck - here's his link - ask him if he knows anyone where you want to live:

I understand there is a lot of situations similar to ours in Arkansas and Missouri. The Missouri Ozarks are really hot right now. If you got out there years ago, you might be getting annoyed at all the people moving in. Bet property prices are getting higher.

I always thought the northern states like the Dakotas, Wyoming and Montana sounded pretty sparsely populated, so the land should be cheap. I just can't handle the winters. Lived in San Diego county for about 10 years - you can have it. Liked the climate, but water was too iffy. If you neglect the ground in San Diego, the grass dies. If you neglect the ground out here, grass grows. Plenty of water, long growing season, lots of timber, mild winters. Summer's hot, but I'd rather work in heat than cold.

Best of luck to you. The hunt can be enjoyable in itself. Keep you from losing your mind while retirement takes it's sweet old time coming.

Regards,
Pat

[TNDadx4]

Pat,

I live in Middle TN. What you all have sounds great. Would you please send me the link of the relator that you used?

Thanks :)

[bee_pipes]

http://www.tworiversrealty.com/

He's got some really expensive stuff there - homes for country music folk and hunters. Some of the stuff has caves too - seems that increases property values. Properties seem to be ordered by price. Check the LAND button. If nothing floats your boat, you could look through RESIDENTIAL for a trailer on a lot of land. You can always build, but it is helpful if you have well and utilities already hooked up. Course, you will pay more...

I think the MLS number is on the properties. Some of them you can find on Crie Lyke (sp?) and see different photos.

If you just gotta get something close to the water, be sure you have some elevation. It does rain around here, and ain't unheard of for the rivers and creeks to rise. Some places are fishing and hunting camps - be sure they mention property...

Regards,
Pat

Ah! Almost forgot - here's the local newspaper:
http://buffaloriverreview.com/

[calliel]

Depends on how hung up you are on staying in the west. There's lots of stuff out there, just away from population centers (as mentioned above). I like Tennessee. The building codes are fairly lax when compared to more built up areas. These folks are nuts about hunting and fishing. If you want something fancy, like water front - that'll cost ya. Water front is easily sold to rich city folk. I'm happy just being 15 minutes from the river. Also in less danger of flooding. Tennessee does have gun laws, but I think they are concerned with the minimum number of weapons that must be on hand and maximum barrel lengths (I kid). I'm not much of a carpenter, but I can throw up any silly old thing that has use without worrying about the neighbors calling in the law - they have their own yard contraptions. One trick I've heard is to put horizontal beams along the bottom of poles on buildings. The horizontal beam is a skid, making it a movable building so that is will not be a taxable fixed structure.

We worked to get the old house paid off. My wife retired on a small pension and we sold the old house and parlayed the money into 48 acres and a house. I kept commuting to Nashville for another three months - 1 hr 45 mins. each way. I don't recommend it - gas was just barely breaking $2 a gallon then.

We probably could have gotten cheaper land, but I couldn't ask my wife to live in a tent while I built a house. Our place has a double wide with a nice porch, well and electric. We own two hollows, the ridge in between, and our sides of the ridges bordering the hollows. The first hollow, where the house it, is cleared and we use it for livestock and garden. The rest is wooded and we use that to make our own lumber for building projects. It has two small ponds and a creek, plus a number of springs. The ponds are low, but we have plans to dig out the springs. The creek is steady, even through the past drought, and we have plans for damming it for irrigation and hydro.

I think I might have been through this county once, on a trip with my wife, but had never heard of it or had any idea where it was. We found a local realtor on the web. He's sort of a big fish in a little pond. Most of the other folks were good old boys doing business with their cronies. He got his stuff on the web, put in a lot of shoe leather pounding the roads around here, and is eating all the other realtors alive. Pick your areas and try to find a local guy like that. Heck - here's his link - ask him if he knows anyone where you want to live:

I understand there is a lot of situations similar to ours in Arkansas and Missouri. The Missouri Ozarks are really hot right now. If you got out there years ago, you might be getting annoyed at all the people moving in. Bet property prices are getting higher.

I always thought the northern states like the Dakotas, Wyoming and Montana sounded pretty sparsely populated, so the land should be cheap. I just can't handle the winters. Lived in San Diego county for about 10 years - you can have it. Liked the climate, but water was too iffy. If you neglect the ground in San Diego, the grass dies. If you neglect the ground out here, grass grows. Plenty of water, long growing season, lots of timber, mild winters. Summer's hot, but I'd rather work in heat than cold.

Best of luck to you. The hunt can be enjoyable in itself. Keep you from losing your mind while retirement takes it's sweet old time coming.

Regards,
Pat

[calliel]

Depends on how hung up you are on staying in the west. There's lots of stuff out there, just away from population centers (as mentioned above). I like Tennessee. The building codes are fairly lax when compared to more built up areas. These folks are nuts about hunting and fishing. If you want something fancy, like water front - that'll cost ya. Water front is easily sold to rich city folk. I'm happy just being 15 minutes from the river. Also in less danger of flooding. Tennessee does have gun laws, but I think they are concerned with the minimum number of weapons that must be on hand and maximum barrel lengths (I kid).

You forgot to mention - No Rocks. I don't have any rocks in my garden - unlike MO where I was raised.

[bee_pipes]

You forgot to mention - No Rocks...

No rocks! Why that's just crazy-talk. That's our number one crop out here! Makes tilling a real bugger. Broke the tines on a roto-tiller. Found out the mfg makes all their money on replacement tines. Got a fellow to repair mine for $25 (which I thought was steep) compared to $100 or better for replacements.

The soil here is chert - hard flinty rock. They quarry it for filling in on roadsides. Chert makes good shoulder dirt. Just putting in two trenches of asparagus resulted in a waist high pile of rock. We've been tilling stuff the first time we make a new bed. After that successive layers of cardboard and yard waste are used to build up the top soil.

It does have it's advantages - drainage of the soil is excellent. But if you get a drought, like the one we had this summer, it works against you.

Regards,
Pat

[flatwater]

Steve, I was born and raised in the lynnwood area and moved over to the nine mile area just outside of spokane. will be moving again further north soon. on this side of the mountains the people are nicer and the land is very reasonable. The traffic is still moderate and in twenty minutes your out in the tullies.
Flatwater

[Steve_L]

Yes, I was thinking North Eastern Washington. I just don't know how to find land. I'm pretty sure that the web is full of scam artist - I read about how a few offer this really high priced little plots of land, with the promise of lots of improvements once they sell X number of units, but they stop selling at X-1 units so they never have to make good. And they have lots of covenents, which means I can't have goats and chickens, and the buyers are rich Californians fleeing the mess they made.

There is a bit of a disconnect between real estate agents on the web, and what I see in local papers on the web. Some counties have the property values on line, which is an eye opener.

I even think that a big chunk of Nevada Desert would suit me. I just want to be left alone and get out of the governments way, and have the government out of my way. Then I can watch the world fall apart in peace. :(

[Deberosa]

Yes, I was thinking North Eastern Washington. I just don't know how to find land. I'm pretty sure that the web is full of scam artist - I read about how a few offer this really high priced little plots of land, with the promise of lots of improvements once they sell X number of units, but they stop selling at X-1 units so they never have to make good. And they have lots of covenents, which means I can't have goats and chickens, and the buyers are rich Californians fleeing the mess they made.

There is a bit of a disconnect between real estate agents on the web, and what I see in local papers on the web. Some counties have the property values on line, which is an eye opener.

I even think that a big chunk of Nevada Desert would suit me. I just want to be left alone and get out of the governments way, and have the government out of my way. Then I can watch the world fall apart in peace. *:(

We are on the Olympic Peninsula and the local thrifty nickel paper here has an ad for an 80 acre cattle farm in Okanogan county - for sale by owner. It's $190,000 without the equipment but with all of the stock cattle, tractors, lots of implements - complete set up it was $220,000. Very tempting!

[Terri]

Have you tried www.unitedcountry.com ? They specialize in affordable properties.

I did not buy from them, but they helped me pin point the affordable areas.

The place we bought was a bargain because -horror of horrors- it had a CREEK on it! Gasp!

It also had no city water available for 3 years, but we figured that was not a problem for us. We were not going to build on it for a couple-three of years anyways.

[docjered]

If you are an avionics engineer, what about Boeing? They bought out McDonnell Douglas in St. Louis, huge facility, and the cost of living in Missouri is cheap, cheap, cheap!!! Plus, less than an hour commute and you can find all the backwoods land you would care to own.

[Steve_L]

If you are an avionics engineer, what about Boeing? They bought out McDonnell Douglas in St. Louis, huge facility, and the cost of living in Missouri is cheap, cheap, cheap!!! Plus, less than an hour commute and you can find all the backwoods land you would care to own.

I'm not really looking for a job, but for homestead land and a roof over my baby's head. If it wasn't for the baby, I'd live in a tent and build like I hear people do in Backwoods Home. I want to live a self sufficent life style. I mean, I am grateful to Boeing for putting food on my table for 22 years and all, but I'd like to do something different with the rest of my life. Besides, Saint Louis requires a current secret clearance for just about everything, and that's not something to be had after 20 years of commercial work.

Just some land, and a roof, and my baby and I can get out of the way as the world starts the end of times period.

I'm a little scared to ask my wife to move. She said she would, but she seems to have... high expectations.

[MooseToo]

most important and the very first step -

stop with the "i want", "i want", "i want".........

and begin to do, do, do -

very few of us here stepped into an ideal situation overnight - but, you GOTTA start somewhere at sometime and go from there -

[Steve_L]

Yeah. Boeing. *;D

Lets say I worked, just hypothetically, on the 787 up in Everett as an Avionics engineer. Is there any "backwoods land" less than, oh... 90 minutes away from there?

The whole reason I quit Douglas and moved up here was because an ex-Boeing person told me about all this backwoods land just minutes from Boeing. Unfortunally, everyone from California had the same idea I had.

The problem with McAir is that they require security clearances; they like to hire people who already have a current clearance. Also, they tend to be rather... bigoted against people with commecial avionics experience. One manager put it this way: "you can't possibly know anything of use to my department".

I did try Saint Louis. Of course, my wife fears anyplace that is not on the west coast.

If you are an avionics engineer, what about Boeing? They bought out McDonnell Douglas in St. Louis, huge facility, and the cost of living in Missouri is cheap, cheap, cheap!!! Plus, less than an hour commute and you can find all the backwoods land you would care to own.

[Steve_L]

I appreciate that "can do, act now" view. I've seen many people promoted to management with the same view. These people decide my raise and in theory they can give me a promotion. *These "can do" people make a lot more money than I do, and they exercise power over my career!

I've seen lots of programs fouled up beyond all recognition because there was too much "do" and not enough "plan". I've also learned that the four words the "do, Do DO!" people hate is "I told you so." Year long delays and broken promises to customers don't seem to phase them very much.

Right now, the plan is:
1) to find cheap land SOON (this year?) before the Communist Chinese buy it up for want of having nothing else to buy with their dollars.
2) Put a small house/cabin on it within a year, if it doesn't have buildings on it already.
4) Make improvements.
3) Retire in 6 years and move to my homestead.

I'm on step one, and in a bit of a panic because I want to beat the rise in the market when the Chinese start buying everything in sight. I fear buying 40 acres in Moses lake and finding out I can't build anything but a McMansion on it, and Chicken coups, rabbit hutches and outbuildings are against the covenants.

Yes, I know the old saying about there comes a time to shoot the engineer and start building. :D

I would like hints as to where and what for to look. I think it's great there is a forum here where I can ask for the wisdom of people who know a lot more than I do.

most important and the very first step -

stop with the "i want", "i want", "i want".........

and begin to do, do, do -

very few of us here stepped into an ideal situation overnight - but, you GOTTA start somewhere at sometime and go from there -

[ASG]

Would you consider Alaska? The climate (especially in the Interior) can make things more difficult than elsewhere (gardening requires starting things early and some extra work for warm-weather stuff, feed for animals if you buy it will be quite expensive, so try to be self-sufficient in that regard), but you can find land outside of the major areas (avoid Anchorage and thereabouts, also keep a little distance from Fairbanks) with hardly any restrictions (there are state laws on septics and outhouses though, minimum separations from water sources and such) and you can even get land without property taxes in the unorganized areas.

I bought 20 acres from the state at $550 an acre, no taxes, road access but far enough away to keep cars away from it, I can build without any sort of permit or anything: http://www.dnr.state.ak.us/mlw/landsale/otc/index.cfm

There are good deals on that site, and some not so good, much of it is in taxed areas and fly-in only, some has road access and no taxes.

If you do, be warned, Alaska isn't very forgiving in the remote areas with no help readily available if you hurt yourself, even if you have to drive a long distance to do so, practice some survival skills in the woods where you are now, practice canning food and gardening and hunting and such too.

[Northern_bushrat]

We're in Canada, so I don't know how you go about finding the kind of land you're looking for down where you are, but here's some tips anyway - we bought land out in the bush, fly-in location, that was our dream. Everybody said it was impossible. What we did was do a lot of looking at maps, then taking the boat and checking places out we liked. Then we looked into ways that public land was available. We took the time and had the perseverance to find out that legally, we could stake undeveloped land for commercial reasons, so we did that. Getting the whole thing through was extremely difficult and took a lot of time and energy, but we did it and got 6 pristine wilderness acres for under $30,000.- So what I'm saying is, if you put in the time and effort to become knowledgeable about what kind of land you can get in which way, then "all you have to do" is stick with it. A lot of peole just don't follow through and give up too easily. DO NOT take no for an answer.
The other thing is, do not get yourself into debt if you expect to change your job as well! Have the money to pay for the land and house, or build it yourself, there's really not much to it, and have some money in the bank to fall back on. Otherwise you find yourself experimenting with a new lifestyle, a lessened or no income, and most likely a huge pile of expenses because you're building up your homestead.
Jobs and an income have a way of finding you if you are capable to live on very little money (the two of us live on less than $10,000 a year), are willing to take any job that pays anything and are willing to try lots of different things. you may hit on a way (most likely a lot of different ways) to make your yearly income over time, but for the first years be ready to make to with a lot less, doing all sorts of jobs - which is great because you'll learn heaps of new skills and gain the confidence to live in a different way than you do now. In my experience, it is 1,000 times easier to find work in small villages (500 people and under). They usually have a lack of willing or qualified people for all sorts of jobs, from managerial to seasonal work.
You can really do it if you want it badly enough...planning, perseverence and common sense will get you there. :)