The SHHTF - Now What?

[edward_4576]

Ok, quick run down. No job, loosing house. I've three options:

1. Live with sister in Va. She got 5 acres and possibility of quickymart job and be a wage slave for the rest of my life and try and find cheap apartment.

2. Go to sister-in-laws house in Baltimore, has 1 acre, husbands an alcoholic, likes to hunt (turns everything into jerky) and possibility of quickymart job and be a wage slave for the rest of my life and try and find cheap apartment.

3. Go to home farm 54 very rural acres, no county code. Brother and God-son live there. No problems of finding a place to put a cabin or cheap trailer.

Now my plans are as follows. Estate sale and ditch everything I have except for homestead gear, this would be:

1. Tools,

2. Kithcen items,

3. books,

4. minor electronics

5. all gardening equipment, food, camping equipment, firearms etc.

Now for some more info, there is a backhoe on sight, brother works for a builder that does a lot of concrete work. Water shouldn't be a problem and there are several springs available.

Now this is where your collective help is needed. My first consideration is to what type of structure. It's me and the wife and our pets. We've been thinking and we have considered the following options:

1. Cheap mobile home and rehab it.

2. a small cabin like this Barn (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=102651-57658-183096&lpage=none)

3. An A-frame

I'm considering having the major appliances to be gas and this might include the fridge as well along with a PV system for minor electrical needs. I figure we might walk out of this mess with 10 grand (perhaps). Now it's time to brain storm.....

[Anon001]

Hey, I hate to hear about your situation. I am not too stuck on any of your three options for a house. the mobile home will never be worth what you put into it. But it may be the most inexpensive option. The small cabin can probably be built with scavenged materials cheaper than Lowes would want for that barn and be much warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer...(thicker walls, more insulation if you build it).

But, of the three options given, I would prefer the A-Frame with lots of windows and/or skylights for natural light if you are going with pv.

I have a Crystal Cold propane fridge I bought in August 2003. I wouldn't trade it for anything. It is quiet and extremely efficient.

One thing you didn't mention that I won't ask you about but, you didn't mention who would own the land where you build or put a house. I was following a thread on another forum (as were others from here) where a couple were buying ground and built a cabin but the landowner died before they got the paperwork completed. Now she is forced out and may not get any reimbursement at all... I'm not asking about your situation but hoping that you have deed to the spot for the house... whether you own it or your brother owns it.

A small PV system won't cost you too much. You could start off with a minimal system for between $1500 and $2000. That would power lights and a laptop computer.... but you would still have to conserve..... I am in NE Kansas. In some parts of the country this would produce more than here and in some parts of the country it may not be enough for you.

Good luck and keep your chin up.
Paul

[Native87]

I am totally with Paul on this one. FOR GOD SAKES make sure that land will be yours. My father recently died and things were not on paper and it was a disaster. BELIEVE me family can turn out to be the worst ppl you EVER deal with. Take Care of Buisness. I truely hope the best for you and yours. Native/Terry

[edward_4576]

A couple of items, one more option for a dwelling could be underground... I might be able to get concrete and such for cost. As to the property rights, I think I understand what you are saying. Just before my father died he and my mother set us all down and told us their wishes. As my brother and god-son were raised by my mother and father they hold their wishes close to sacred. Their wish was to allow any of the family to live and build there if they so wished in the future.

My wife and I are mid fifties and sixties so we told them we don't want the property in perpetuity, we just want someplace to live till we die. All of my brothers and sisters are aware of our desire to live a quiet existence with minimal interference in their lives and they have agreed to this.

I wanted to ask about the fridge, how much does one usually cost and how much gas does it use on the average in a month?

The property is located just across the Pa. state line and I was looking at some of the buildings that you can get from the Amish. They seem pretty reasonable.

[tomato204]

Just the same, get it in writing. You can make a 99 year lease for $1 and make it legal. Things change, people change. You don't know they might all die before you and you'll be old and at the mercy of whoever gets the place next. I'm just sayin'.......

[kmccune]

Go country and get lifetime rights 8) Like Paul said the A-Frame has some advantages-ease of consruction for one-anything you set or build,situate it so you can add on easy later on.Underground would be great for so many reasons.Yes the Amish could build you a nice core structure if you dont say to much about what the end goal is-Kevin

[DM]

A- frames have too much wasted space in them... I'd go for a small building with the roof pitched all one way, we call them a "shed" roof... At least your not fighting those pitched walls all the time, like you do in an A frame every time you want to hang a shelf/cabinet or?

I built a small small A frame once, and i wouldn't want one compared to something simple, like a shed roofed building...

DM

[rivahmom]

I would go with the country (make sure you get rights to it on paper) and I would build with earthbags.
http://www.earthbagbuilding.com/index.htm Avoid Baltimore. The five acres would be my second choice but only if I can plant and raise livestock on it. Good luck.

[CarolAnn]

Edward,
You are going about this in exactly the right way: make a list of options, do some deep thinking and do some planning before you make a change. You may find (and probably will find) that this is the best & most exciting thing you've done!

My folks started over in their late 60's by getting a small piece of land in the Arkansas Ozarks, cleared it and got an inexpensive trailer. It lasted as long as they needed it to and it was cheap. However, that's not for everyone. If you do go that route, peel the paneling off of the walls and get some real insulation in there. It's relatively cheap and easy to do, and almost all of them need it! Take some time to make it attractive for the sake of your lady, too. She'll appreciate it! ;)

No matter what you decide, with your positive attitude I believe it'll be something good!

[coosa]

Just a few observations:

Would recommend conventional cabin construction style. Do the minimum living space with layout-friendly plan for additions later.

A-frame will create moisture problems at foundation and, as has been said above, mucho unusable space inside.

Recommend 2x6 walls vice 2x4 if you can afford or find as salvage. Will provode tons more insulation and greatly decrease heating/cooling costs.

Put it up with screws (self-boring vice drywall) instead of nails. The whole structure can then be disassembled and moved, or added on to, without destroying the lumber.

Get structure up off the ground (adequate crawl space) to maximize ventilation (minimize moisture problems) and maximize room to work on plumbing/electrical.

I wish you well in your new adventure.

[ArmySGT.]

If it was me........ I would do the sale, move to the land, and build the A frame.

A frame is cheaper, and will get you through any season, till you have more money to spread around. Not like you have to stay for eternity.

Advertise in the paper, craigslist, and freecycle, that you will pick up any left over building supplies. Potential there to get lumber, nails and a lot of stuff for nothing.

[Anon001]

*A- frames have too much wasted space in them... *I'd go for a small building with the roof pitched all one way, we call them a "shed" roof... *At least your not fighting those pitched walls all the time, like you do in an A frame every time you want to hang a shelf/cabinet or?
*DM

The only reason I suggested the A-frame was because it was the BEST of the options he gave us for feedback. *Personally, I like A-Frames and they don't have anymore wasted space unless you create wasted space..... add a loft or second floor in the top half.... that solves the wasted space problem.

A couple of items, one more option for a dwelling could be underground... *
I wanted to ask about the fridge, how much does one usually cost and how much gas does it use on the average in a month?


The underground is my favorite. *If I was going to build again, I would go underground... Easier to heat in the winter and cool in the summer.

The fridge at the time (August 2003) was about 1750 or 1850 which included the freight. *It is expensive, but I should never have to buy another one. *There is no compressor to break down and no moving parts to wear out. *How much does it use? *Let me put it this way... I heat water with propane, cook on propane, and use if for my fridge/freezer. *I used only about 100 gallons in 9 months. *I think it's very efficient, quiet, and I sure do like it. *

Paul

P.S...... I'm considering buying a propane chest freezer.

[kmccune]

not bad at all,have you checked out the solar deepfreeze-with the dedicated solar panel?(costs about the same).Is the gas fridge an adsorption type?
Yes A-frames are easy to build,the USDA had plans for a nice A-Frame-this book containing those plans and others used to be available from Dover press.Maybe a local library could get it"Twenty Low Cost Homes"I think is the title.{lost my copy}
I have a friend who had a Gambrel style office built over his garage and the resourceful carpenter who built it installed a built in gun cabinet on one side to utilize the sloping space(very neat)-Kevin

[Kyhome]

Dang it Ed, I hate this for you and Donna. It’s a crazy time for sure. I would go for the country and 54 if possible. And shoot for finding a usable trailer for next to nothing to start with. After your getting situated and working then you could make a longer range plan of action. Would go this way to save as much cash as possible. For long term would go with earth bermed passive solar with the concrete at cost or stacked blocked type setup. The trailer could then be used for storage or whatever. As others have said I would very much want something in writing on covering you two.
Rick

[MooseToo]

Dang it Ed, I hate this for you and Donna. It’s a crazy time for sure. I would go for the country and 54 if possible. And shoot for finding a usable trailer for next to nothing to start with. After your getting situated and working then you could make a longer range plan of action. Would go this way to save as much cash as possible. For long term would go with earth bermed passive solar with the concrete at cost or stacked blocked type setup. The trailer could then be used for storage or whatever. As others have said I would very much want something in writing on covering you two.
Rick


i agree with this advice -
in addition - i wouldn't worry about the land not being in your name - just so long as your record is absolutely perfect in predicting the future -

[Anon001]

not bad at all,have you checked out the solar deepfreeze-with the dedicated solar panel?(costs about the same).Is the gas fridge an adsorption type?

Kevin,

I started a new thread to answer your question so as not to hijack Ed's thread.
(Response to Kevin (http://www.backwoodshome.com/forum/yabb/forum.pl?board=ene-solar;action=display;num=1237996490;start=0#0))

Paul

[TNDadx4]

Ed,

I am sorry to hear of your situation :(

If it were me, I'd choose the country (54 acres) and build a small cabin there or maybe a cheap mobile home until you could build something else. With all that land, you could still have your privacy, too.

You could grow a garden, etc. and will (hopefully) be around like minded people.

I agree with getting something in writing, too.

Best of luck to you!!!!

[edward_4576]

I've been checking out about the estate sale, so far if you get someone to do it for you it's 20% of the take. So we figure on doing it ourselves. I figure an add on craigslist and the local free papers (thrifty nickel, pitchweekly) and of course signs on all roads leading to our place. We intend on doing the sales every Sat & Sun for as long as we can.

We have also been thinking about the pricing, so here's next question. Leave the stuff unmarked and let folks make us an offer or mark and try let folks try and talk us down. Also on some larger and more expensive items like our dining room set, mark at a depreciated value of what we bought it for and let folks bid on the stuff.

Now about the signs, how about

Estate Sale
Sat & Sun
No closing date
12345 Upthe Creek Lane

Thoughts and suggestions....

[CanNerd]

I've attended a lot of Estate Sales over the years and the items need to be marked with a price, usually at 1/3 of retail. *Check eBay and the Internet for prices if need be. Many buyers will be Dealers and they need a margin for their resale and you want to sell to them because they buy a lot at one time and spend the $$$.

The sales in my area start on Thursday. *You want the dealers not the lookiloos. Sat-Sun are for garage sales and too much competition for buyers.*Door opens at 8-9:00 am which means the lines may start before 6:00am if you advertised properly. *I would recommend doing up 'numbers' up to 200 to give out to the first arrivals. *I would show up at 4am-5am and be 10-20th in line. *Not fun in the winter or rainy season but a buyer wants to be in the first group to catch the treasures.

Only 10-20 people should be allowed in the house at one time for control and keep breakage and theft to a minimum. Garage, if any, should be monitored separately. Items should be grouped together on tables for display as much as possible.

Run the Estate Sale for 2 days (Thurs-Fri) and then maybe a 50% off on Sat-Sun depending on how much is left.

Good luck.

[Kyhome]

Ed:
Have you folks inventoried what you’re going to be selling and created your ideas of what it should bring yet? I think from the way I understand the folks that oversee selling of estates that they create their own price for the items being sold, based on their experiences in the business and to help them make the most money possible for their time. I would come up with my dollar amount and see if any of them or any local auction houses might give you a bid on the whole deal, and if close enough may be a lot easier on your emotions than dickering your hard earned life’s positions away one piece at a time. Are there any second hand type stores you could visit and get an idea what similar items you have are selling for, might help with identifying a dollar amount to start with if you go it yourselves.
I think its works best having price marked on items being sold, for at least two reasons it makes it easier on the people having the sale not having to try answering everyone’s question at once. And second it allows you more time watching, seeing and listening to what the crowds are saying, so you can spot reduce a dollar amount to a specific person showing interest in anything etc. As well a lot of folks don’t like dickering and will just walk around looking and not pick anything up.
I would try taking pictures of the big ticket items and get them on craigslist as soon as possible.
Wish you folks best of luck getting the biggest amounts possible.
Rick

[MissouriFree]

YOu might get some ideas from this place that would be helpfull.

http://www.countryplans.com/keller.html

same site: this one is kind of a neat story.. *the presentation is a bit hard to follow but it is about a small cabin build by a 17 year old teanage girl.


http://peaceandcarrots.homestead.com/heathershouse.html

[edward_4576]

We checked on dealers to buy the whole lot, kit & caboodle but couldn't find them in the phone book and the auctioneers that I talked to said that it was difficult to do it in today's market and most wouldn't do it. Any ideas on where I might call to get in touch with someone who would be more interested in buying the whole thing?

[Kyhome]

You can try auctionzip.com and put in your zip code. that should list the auctions in your area. May show some you don't know about and you might go to a sale and find some local dealers like that?

[EarthMama]

I have nothing to add to what has already been said, Ed, except to say that I'm so sorry this has happened to you and your family. But I trust all will work out and you will make the absolute best out of a very hard and difficult situation. Hang in there!

[Lobo]

Edward, Having been down a similar path (loss of job and home) I can say your option of going home may not seem so great now but it will. You are lucky to have family and land. That's what families are for-to help you thru the tough times.

Keep your chin up.

Lobo

[edward_4576]

I've been looking at some other options for building. I wanted to see if anyone had any experience with straw bale. I've checked the internet but what I'm seeing isn't realworld information.

I've also thought of another option for moving as well. with the cost of moving anything being so expensive I was thinking about a used panel truck. After I moved it could be converted to temp shelter, a BOV/RV or resold to recoup cost.

I was also wondering if anyone has any links to cad software that would help me design my own barn style shelter, something that would help with determining the number and amount of construction materials I would need.

Also I was recently interviewed by the post office for a temp position with about 36 hours a week for 360 days. I'm hoping that my come through as I could get a second job working at a quicky mart for a few hours a day and make up the loss to my income. This might give me enough to finance my G.O.O.D. plans.

If you have a moment send up a prayer for me....

[biff]

I would go for the mobile home because if you decide to hook up to the grid later its easier, and you can also use a genorator far power. I went broke ten years ago and lived in a 2500 dollar mobile home with out power for over a year. Things got a little better and I was able to get a power pole and well eventually. I used coolers with ice for a fridge ( you can freeze water bottles at work or friends houses to keep the coolers cold). Sometimes I would buy ice but it was still pretty cheap. An old gas stove works with out electricity to heat water for bucket showers ( a five gallon bucket of water and a cup to pour the water over yourself). I did laudry at a laundry matt and that gets expensive-- thats why I recomend getting genorator to run a washing machine and a water pump from the springs you have on site. The only thing I really missed was airconditioning, but then I got used to the heat.
I am sorry to hear that you are loosing everything, I have been through that and its tough. But will say for me that my life was harder when I was trying to hold on to everything and I was working 70 hours every week ( I lost it all any way) going broke wasn't the end of the world, things got a lot simpler. The people in your life are a lot more important than things. I hope things turn out right for you and your wife. You also might consider a camper or RV, there are a lot of cheaper ones out there for sale right now

[Anon001]

Edward,

Before I moved to this place, I paid $1700 or $1750 for a 27 foot bumper pull camper that slept 8. It had two dining tables, a bath with shower, etc..... I lived in it from May 1998 to Sep 2002.

Also, on Craig's List, in my area I saw a 25 or 26 foot 5th wheel with a slide out for $4500... I think that would be a good option too. I could be wrong but I would think it would have more resale value that a panel truck? It's woth a look-see.....

Good luck and I will keep you and your wife in my prayers.

Paul

[huckelberry]

bag the a frame gig,build a small frame house,propane fridge is great,bout 1900$ but i bought a used one for 100$ once,i saw one recently for 900$they dont use much gas,an never break,wood cook stove,if, you can cut yer own wood...love mine...chain saw an tiller,pickup truck,pressure cooker..chickens maybe milk goats...spend the $ on insulation.it will come back many times over,is there timber on the place?theres yer building material...been doin this a while....good luck brother ;)

[edward_4576]

yea there's timber on it but mostly locust and such, not much for large or tall tree's. The water is what's one of the best features. the property had one deep well and three or four spring wells. When the coal co. came through and long walled they had to put in "city" water to replace the missing springs and such. the water is free, abundant and clean.

The timber issues is one of the reasons I was looking at an underground house (specially with the unlimited use of a backhoe) but I need to research that more as well. One of my criteria is to get something under a roof as soon as possible with the inside finishing to be concluded on the fly as it were.

[Anon001]

Locust is good for wood heat.....

[DV8]

build you a nice cordwood home. I have seen some nice ones.

google it !!

~Dave

[kmccune]

Build your basement-roof it over and move in-Kevin

[EarthMama]

Build your basement-roof it over and move in-Kevin


What a great idea~ simple but do-able, in pretty short order too.

[edward_4576]

Any good links to putting on a roof for a basement, my DW is an ex-bricklayer and she's good with the blocks and my brother does concrete, I just need some info on how the roof on an underground basement would be put together...

[kmccune]

Well there are a few options,on the thirteenth or so row of blocks you attach a top plate(securely anchored of course )and go up with the roof of choice.To ensure a sturdy structure the roof will need ceiling joists to stabilize the walls and tie the roof together(think triangle) or you could go with an attic truss and gain a bonus upstairs space,you would probaly want a finished ceiling any way and the joists would be a good place to hang it-Kevin

[bigjack]

Have you considered a yurt? You can set one up in a couple days. you have to build a deck of some sort to put it on. Good ones work in any climate. If you have a falling out with the family you can pack it on a truck and take it with you. Just another option to think about. good luck.-Jack

[edward_4576]

Well we've been putting some stuff off, today we started the big burn party. All those documents and papers you keep, well they're gone as of tonight. Man that fire got big. We've been going through all of our stuff (my sh@t is stuff, your stuff is sh@t - George Carlin) and determining what we are keeping, all the lodge, the good flat ware etc.

As I told my DW that when we get through we will have the best of everything we've collected over the years and everything else is just stuff. She still feels as if we're failures but I tell her that we're breaking the wage slave's chains (chains we can believe in).

I found a resource here (thanks bee man) that's gonna help me with the drawings with my structure. I got the plans from a Canadian site but a lot of information was missing so he's gonna help me with that. I stopped at the local grocery store and ask them to start saving some boxes for me to pack stuff in. Our next step is to go through our clothes and linens and such, get them washed and packed away.

I've chosen one room in our home that is about the size of a medium U-Haul. I've tried to think of other methods of transporting what we want to keep but a 12 year old Monte Carlo doesn't have the towing capacity I think we'll need. I'm still thinking about that.

Anyway, I did come up with a sign:

Estate sale
xxxx North Ave
Open everyday
Until all is gone

I'll keep you all up to date. I think I'll write all this down and put it in a book or something, hell, I might get rich.

TTFN