Surviving a wildfire - Could you do it?

[CarolAnn]

Australia is still burning - in one of the worst wild fires they've experienced ever, in loss of human life. There's a good article by a man who saved his family through luck as much as training in how to survive a fire that tears through the countryside at jet speeds:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25026912-2702,00.html

It's been 138 years since the Great Chicago fire - October 8, 1871 - and a lot of people don't know a lot of Wisconsin towns also burned down that night. From Wikipedia: Surviving witnesses reported that the firestorm generated a tornado that threw rail cars and houses into the air. Many of the survivors of the firestorm escaped the flames by immersing themselves in the Peshtigo River, wells, or other nearby bodies of water. Some drowned or boiled alive while doing so.

This is something we haven't discussed here. If it happened once, it can certainly happen again. California battles wild fires yearly, and there are often forest fires out west - but really - anywhere that suffers a drought can have a wild fire.

[Wyobuckaroo]

To add to Australias problems, they also have flooding in the north part of the country.

One of the biggest dangers they have with that is Crocodiles moving to towns etc. They say these reptiles are much greater threat to humans than Alligators would be in this kind of situation.

Last headline I was says 108 people have died in the fires.

Best of luck Mate
Wyo

[CanNerd]

It's sad what Austrialia is going through. Any time there is a loss of homes and lives it is horrendous.

This is something Southern California goes through on a far too frequent basis, spurred on my our local crazies, the arsonists, as well as nature.

[CarolAnn]

The link gives so many steps to take - the guy was trained for it. I've never even thought of most of that stuff.

I had no clue a fire could spread with that speed and strength.

I think the ones that lived through it either had hidey-holes underground or got into water (creeks / rivers) with wet blankets over their heads. Good to know.

[jebrown]

CarolAnn
Let me provide you with some insight into conditions in a wildfire specifically Forest Fires in the San Gabriel Mountains near los Angeles.
The Pasadena Red Cross in the late ’70’s and early ‘80’s had a contract with the California Department of Forestry to provide first aid stations at their base camps and satellite camps as needed.
I have treated such injuries as first, second and third degree burns, various types of eye injuries, cuts, bruises, sprains, broken bones, respiratory distress, rashes, poison ivy, scrapes, puncture wounds, chainsaw injuries, and injuries from shovels, picks and specialized firefighting tools as well as smoke inhalation I can tell you from first hand experience that smoke inhalation is not fun.
Some careless individual had left some ammunition near a hiking trail. It got hot from the fire and discharged shooting three members of a Hot Shot crew. One was shot in the lower back The second in the hip. The third in the thigh. By the the Grace of god no one was killed as there were numerous rounds that discharged. Various animal and rattle snake bites too. I have treated the general public for many of the same emergencies. If the injuries were too serious then we called in the paramedics.
Over the years I have gone in to help with evacuations while the fire is too close for comfort as well as at some of the first aid stations.
Gone into the foothill areas of such towns as Altadena, Sierra Madre, Monrovia, Azusa, La Verne and some others. To help with evacuations and Damage Assessment.
I have been in some times of very close calls but I put my faith in the Los Angeles County fire department and the California Department of Forestry and I was always kept safe by them.
I lived in the Los Angeles area for 37 years. I have lived in Oklahoma for 16 years.
I have seen tornadoes in Oklahoma, you are probably aware of the large out break on May 3rd, 1999. I was involved in that out break as well. I have seen houses destroyed by earthquakes fires, floods, mudslides, wind and heavy snowfall. Also single family house fires. I have dealt with the emotional pain that comes with the devastation of one losing their home. Nothing is as devastating as dealing with multiple house fires that go on for blocks and blocks.

[Native87]

My eyes are open now. I live in the mtns of Va. and I have seen how fast and darn near explosive fire can be. When it gets in the forest canopy watch out. Terry

[jebrown]

So here you are sitting in your favorite rest spot. The weather is nice; the breeze is gentle and pleasant. Your ice cold drink hits the spot along with some relaxing music. Your head rest on the back of your chair, your eyes are closed and you can’t remember the last time you were enjoying relaxing in the peace and quiet. Pretty soon your nose is invaded by an acrid odor. In a few seconds you realize that it is smoke. You get up and search the entire house and find nothing. All of the smoke alarms are quiet as are the carbon monoxide detectors. You open the front door and go out side where the smell of smoke is stronger. Again you look around and see nothing. But now you can here a loud noise that sounds like a cheap radio. A lot of words that you can’t make out and a lot of scratching –like sounds too. You can hear short bursts from a siren mixed in. Now you see a Police car with its lights flashing slowly coming toward your house. Pretty soon you are able to understand what is being broadcast over the public address system. The police officer is advising people to start evacuating because of a Wild Fire threat. You think Hey I am several blocks away from the open fields and trees. Then you remember about being told of the large areas of smoke from the fire. Ok maybe you aren’t in any danger but you decide to evacuate just the same. Your husband calls and tells you about the evacuation and you tell him you are leaving. He said he would meet you at the disaster shelter.
You arrive at the shelter and observe all of the chaos. People going here and there, kids screaming and crying, people mad because the shelter is only been open for twenty minutes and there is no food. Your husband says he has a lot of work to get done and he is not sure how he will be able to do so. You decide to leave and find a motel. After a while you locate a nice looking motel and check in. It is nice and clean so you feel comfortable .Now you realize that you have no food no clothes and no personal hygiene items other than what is in the bathroom. Your husband is assisting the kids to come inside, they do have their school bags but you don’t know what is in them. Your husband tells you he overheard some one in the next room talking on the phone with the manager about not having enough hot water to shower and the toilet keeps backing up. Now your comfort turns to concern. The kids are hungry, so off you go to find a restaurant. When you get back and turn on the TV and watch the news coverage of the Wild Fire but nothing on how the houses are doing.
It is nightfall and your husband is out side talking with other people in the Motel. The kids are watching TV and you are reading a newspaper. All of you are coughing and choking room the smoke in the air. Breathing is difficult and uncomfortable. All of the sudden the lights go out, the TV goers off and the rickety air conditioner stops working. The Motel room immediately begins to get warm. Your husband opens the door and asks if everyone is ok. they are you tell him. Suddenly the Motel room is bathed in light. Some one turned on their car headlights. Soon a few other cars are shining their headlights too. A little kid down the way is asking what happened to the lights. You husband comes inside to talk with you. You have no clean clothes no candles his flashlight from the car has weak batteries. The Motel room is getting warmer as you speak without the air conditioning working. The smoke is getting worse and breathing is getting more difficult.
You decide that you will go on to bed. Al night long everyone is restless from the heat and the smoke No one gets a good nights sleep. The next morning you head for the restaurant you ate at last night. There is a long line outside. 45 minutes later some one from the restaurant steps put side saying “I am sorry folks but we are out of food. Our next delivery is in four days. We contacted our supplier and was told that they can’t get here any sooner. Some one at the back of the line says that It is the same all over and the stores are out of food too. A car with a Red Cross volunteer pulls up and informs everyone that the shelter will have food for everyone whether you are staying there or not. Some people in the line start to grumble but one gentleman says hey in a situation like this food is food just be thankful that we have it. A lot of people nod there head in agreement.
You decide that you will drive to another town and look for some clothes to wear. While there you find a grocery store where you purchase items to make sandwiches. As you shop you see many familiar faces there too. You don’t know all their names but you recognize them any way. You smile and wave hello. Nio one wants to chat, just get food to eat. You now drive to the local park to have your sandwiches> As you eat you see other familiar faces showing up there too.
After you eat you relax in the shade for awhile and enjoy some cold drinks. After arriving back at you motel room you learn that the electricity is still off. Every one takes turns showering with luke warm water but at least you are clean. The smoke is still it the air so breathing is still uncomfortable. The Motel maids are working as hard as they can at trying to clean all of the soot from inside the rooms. You pitch in to help with your room as do some of the others. Time to head down to the shelter to eat. Again you find yourself waiting in line to eat. This time the wait is much shorter. The food is better than expected. After you eat you visit with some of your neighbors then head back to the Motel. Now there are enough magazines for everyone to read by the candles you bought at the store. Soon you settle in again for a very long and sleepless night
The next morning you turn on the TV again. You learn that here were a number of houses that burned to the ground but you don’t know if yours is one of them. Later in the day you learn that no one will be allowed back into the area for the rest of the day. You settle down for another night in the Motel room. The next morning you will be allowed back into your neighbor hood in about three hours.
You your husband and the kids drive back toward home. You soon realize that all of the houses in the neighborhood have all been burned to the ground. When you get to your home it is nothing but a pile of charcoal-like wood.
Your husband is standing next to the car looking around in utter disbelief. The kids are crying wanting to know what happened to the house. Your husband has tears rolling down his cheeks tries to explain it to the kids. Now both of you are in font of the car and look at each other see each others tears an hold each other tightly. Your husband say that he is sorry. You tell him it is ok, it wasn’t his fault. Upon entering the charred remains of you house you discover that everything is burnt or severely fire damaged. You can still feel some of the residual heat from the ashes so you are careful where you step. Trying to find anything to salvage is impossible. The furniture, clothes, appliances, photo albums important papers, kids toys, TV, DVD player, stereo, video games everything is gone. A neighbor and his wife come up the driveway to visit with your husband, you join them. The talk is about the devastation. Soon there is a small group in your dive way all talking about the Wildfire and how quick everything was destroyed. One minute every one has a home and in a very shirt time all is gone. After everyone in the group leaves your realize that there is nothing to salvage from the ruins of your house. You head back to the Motel room and get started on what turns out to be endless calls and meetings with the insurance company and the insurance adjuster. You have no idea how long you will be in the Motel room. Just the thought of staying there for an extended period of time is difficult concept to deal with. Thinking about all of your neighbor’s house being lost too is also emotionally tiring
Back at the Motel room there is electricity but you are told it is not enough to handle the air conditioner. Once inside you and your husband decide that as soon as possible you will visit with the Red Cross and learn how to be prepared for all disasters that will crop up in the future. Even without asking your kids agree with you on this idea.
This is a true story about family that I provided assistance to many years ago. Eventually their life got back on tract and true to their word they contacted me for disaster preparedness training as did several of their neighbors. Each one of them took their training very serious. At the end of the training in each family had a three day BOB and built up a six month emergency stock of supplies. I guess experience is the best teacher.

[Native87]

I have another thought. We have a big drain pipe about a minute from house. 4ft. underground and 60ft long. barring flood at same time it could be a lifesaver. what do yall think?

[CarolAnn]

Native87 -
There were survivors in Australia that crawled into drain pipes. The guy said it wasn't a place you'd normally dream of getting into - muddy, filled with spiders & bugs - but when it came to survival, he did what he had to do - and rolled in the mud to help keep himself a bit cooler.

I would think it would be a good place, depending on the length & ferocity of the fire - as it uses up oxygen & superheats the air, that low place might be one of the few places you could survive if you couldn't manage to get out and away in time.

One guy had a great plan for escape - but the smoke was so thick he couldn't locate the car keys! Awful to prepare and then to die for something so simple as that. He got out when he stumbled over his wife's purse and found the her keys because of a big joke of a key ring.

[ArmySGT.]

Some careless individual had left some ammunition near a hiking trail. It got hot from the fire and discharged shooting three members of a Hot Shot crew. One was shot in the lower back The second in the hip. The third in the thigh. By the the Grace of god no one was killed as there were numerous rounds that discharged.

Except no one could have gotten killed.

In a fire the the case heats up, the primer fires and sets off the gunpowder. Force being equal the bullet stays in place and the much lighter brass casing flys off in a random direction.

Sometimes the bullet melts, since it is lead, and the gunpowder makes a bright flash as it burns rapidly. With nothing going anywhere.

Bullets tossed carelessly on the ground, that detonate in a fire are only a hazard for your eyes. Anywhere else and it is just a red welt.

The only way a bullet would be lethal in a fire, is if it is loaded in the chamber of a gun that was in the fire. If the lead bullet didn't melt before the gunpowder ignited, then it would be fired as normal. The brass case being fully supported and the bullet being the path the force travels.

Mythbusters did a episode with bullets in an oven. .50 BMG a bullet with a casing nearly five inches long, containing a lot of gunpowder, was only just able to break the tempered glass of the oven window.

Sorry for the threadjacking. Just had to correct that long held to myth.

[epeterd1]

there was an article linked on drudge yesterday (may still be there) from australia about a town hall-type meeting where the residents were blaming the city for not allowing them to cut brush or the city not clearing vacant areas. that was a big reason the fire was so bad. which is, of course, a problem here in the u.s. evironmentalists not allowing controlled burns or people to clear brush to help prevent the wildfires from being so bad. it's sad really. criminal too, if you ask me.

[jebrown]

ArmySGT
Regardless of what the mythbuster say, I saw all three of the Hot Shot crew with bullets in them.
Ther was also some fuel in the same place. I don't know what kind it was. It was suspected that some illegal activities were going on in the area.
An oven operates at 500 to 550 degrees. Fuel burns at 2,000 to 2,500 degrees.
That could account for waht happened.
In 1990 I was on my way home from work and passed about 300 feet from an industrial fire. It was a Raven gun manufacturing plant.
The fire department pulled back and was no longer fighting the fire as amunition stored inside was exlpoding from the heat. As I passed by it sounded like several machine guns were being fired at the same time.
That was the Raven firearms plant in the City of Industry California.
The mythbusters show has been called to task as some of thier findings are not rue.

[jebrown]

Native 87
Although not an ideal place to be in a fire, if you can't evacuate in time it is better than being in the direct path of a fire.
Fires can travel a lot faster than you can run. If it is being pushed by strong winds it can move at an incrdible speed. Large fires emit so much heat that they actually start vegetation burning for quite a distance ahead of the flames.
A fire can break out at night and be at your home without you knowing it.
If you do go into the drain pipe get inside as quick as possible then make your way to the center of the pipe.
The two main hazards you will be concerned with is superheated gases in the air. The other is lack of oxygen. The fire will consume huge amounts of it and there may be little or none in the air for a period of time depending on the size of the fire. Gas masks are of little value as they will not protect you from the superheated air and they will not provide you with oxygen.
Also depending on circumstance if there is any water in the drain pipe quickly test it ahead of time to see how hot it is. It is possible that it could be too hot for you to enter the drain pipe
Check on its condition from time to time. Clean out any brush, mud or critters who may be inside.
As I stated it may not ve the ideal place to goin a pinch it might be better than nothing. Timing whould be your decision maker. If you can leaave safely do so. If not head for the drain pipe and hope for the best.
Often times in a disaster situation decisions have to be made in seconds. No matter how well prepared you are.

[ArmySGT.]

ArmySGT
Regardless of what the mythbuster say, I saw all three of the Hot Shot crew with bullets in them. You treated them or saw them? Because again, unless the cartidge is chambered in a gun, the thinner and lighter brass case is what will faill first and become the projectile. The bullet being heavier than the brass resists the force of the rapid deflagration of gun powder. The brass becomes shrapnel.


Ther was also some fuel in the same place. I don't know what kind it was. It was suspected that some illegal activities were going on in the area.
An oven operates at 500 to 550 degrees. Fuel burns at 2,000 to 2,500 degrees. 500 degrees is enough to set off the primers which in turn ignite the gun powder. Lead melts at 800. So if it got that hot fast enough, the bullets themselves would have melted and the gunpowder would have flashed over.


That could account for waht happened.
In 1990 I was on my way home from work and passed about 300 feet from an industrial fire. It was a Raven gun manufacturing plant.
The fire department pulled back and was no longer fighting the fire as amunition stored inside was exlpoding from the heat. As I passed by it sounded like several machine guns were being fired at the same time.
That was the Raven firearms plant in the City of Industry California.
The mythbusters show has been called to task as some of thier findings are not rue.


Can't say I will miss Raven arms and their cast aluminium junk guns. If there was alot of ammo, who knows maybe Raven actually tested their junk, ammo would have to be housed in steel containers that would resist pressure long enough for it to build up to something lethal. This would make the can a bomb. Individual cartridges don't explode. The primers detonate because of the heat, the gunpowder burns like it is designed to, the brass case fails because it is not supported by the steel walls of a fireams chamber. The brass case becomes the projectile; high speed, jagged shrapnel, fortunately without the mass to cause lethal or serious trauma.

I mention mythbusters so you could "see" this for yourself. If you want written researcher try "Hatcher's Notebook".

Fire departments do the same thing when paint cans, and other things detonate in a garage fire. just erring on the side of caution. I won't fault them for it. Since gangs were shooting at firemen during the last LA riots, your hot shots may have been near someones marijauna crop.

Either way bullets dropped on the ground that get swept up by a grassfire or a forest fire are not going to shoot out lethal bullets in all directions. Worst case scenario is someone loses an eye. A large number of bullet in a metal can, maybe if the all detonated near simultaneously, and the can held together long enough to get high pressures.

[jebrown]

I will not put ammunition in a fire regardless of what you say.
There were no marijuana fields nearby so no one to shoot at them. Yes I know about clandestine pot fields. A couple of backpacking friends I knew got fishooks in thier necks when the stumbled on to one. fishooks are difficilt to see at night. Ski patrtol members that I knew were always getting injured from them too.
I called some local gunshops to get thier opinion. One said let him throw ammunition into the fire and see what he says after he gets shot in the leg. He said the heat will set off the powder before the lead or any other metal has a chance to melt He said that through his work he hears about ammunition going of from accidently getting into campfires by hunters. Not a real common incident but it does happen.
It was also proved that there was improper storage at that raven plant. So i guess that they didn't make a quality product. I am not a gun enthusiast but I have heard that if you were using a Raven Gun you could die quicker from it than someone else holding a gun on you. A former neighbor showed we one of his, a 22 cal. pistol, just felt odd to me. I have held many guns in my hands as my dad had a high interest in guns and was always eager to show them to me.. I just never developed an interest in them and have never owned one. Here in Oklahoma these good ol' boys look at me like I am from another planet.
I know about firefighters pulling back from dangerous situations. I have a degree in fire science. about ten or twelve years ago I got called out by the fire department to a house fire (Red Cross disaster volunteer). When I was jsut a couple of blocks away ther was an explosion that sent a ball of fire into the air. I parked and got out of my car and the fire department had pulled back. They did so for safety and then there were four more explosions. The people living in the house had no gas service and had several full propane tanks in the kitchen. The were using a propane stove to heat and cook with. Four daughters 5, 6, 9 and 11. One somehow knocked over a propane bottle which pulled over the stove causing the entire house to burn. All four of them got out OK. Mom and Dad were partying next door.

[ArmySGT.]

I will not put ammunition in a fire regardless of what you say. I hope not, I didn't imply that you should. I stated you not going to get "shot by the bullet" though the brass case may do you some small harm.

There were no marijuana fields nearby so no one to shoot at them. I wouldn't bet on that. After all they don't advertise. Growers have been know to shoot hikers, berry and mushroom pickers, and forest service personnel for being near the "field".

I called some local gunshops to get thier opinion. One said let him throw ammunition into the fire and see what he says after he gets shot in the leg. He said the heat will set off the powder before the lead or any other metal has a chance to melt He said that through his work he hears about ammunition going of from accidently getting into campfires by hunters. Not a real common incident but it does happen. Neat. While in Kosovo caches of ammunition (7.62x39, 7.62x54R, and russian 12.7) was destroyed by burning in common 55 gallon drums. Part of the UN weapons destruction program at the time. Which I personally witnessed contracted workers with shovel dumping shovel fulls of ammo into the drums with a wood fire started inside.

Since I have been involved in Gunsmithing (2 year certificate) I have seen an few guns destroyed by fire, that are brought in to be appraised (after the fact unfortunately). Routine is the magazine is blown out, the bullet is still there with the brass case rupturing, and damaging the firearm.

It was also proved that there was improper storage at that raven plant. So i guess that they didn't make a quality product. I am not a gun enthusiast but I have heard that if you were using a Raven Gun you could die quicker from it than someone else holding a gun on you. A former neighbor showed we one of his, a 22 cal. pistol, just felt odd to me. I have held many guns in my hands as my dad had a high interest in guns and was always eager to show them to me.. I just never developed an interest in them and have never owned one. Here in Oklahoma these good ol' boys look at me like I am from another planet.

Raven is just a junk product, and as sloppy as the guns are whatever they were doing at the plant was just as likely bad. You don't actually repair one, they are sent back to the factory which sends a new gun.

For your viewing pleasure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BX1kvJVrjc

[DM]

I myself have cooked ammo off in a fire... As was already said, there was a flash, and it's the brass case that MOST times flew out of the fire. Actually it's small cases like from a 22 rimfire that are light enough to come out of the fire but don't have enough power to do any damage...

In EVERY case the energy of the round wasn't enough to push a bullet away from the fire, and the brass case didn't do any damage either, although i wouldn't want to get hit in the face or eye by one.

At least that was what i found from doing this myself...

DM

[firegirl969]

DH and I fought the Ware Co. GA wildfires. Unless you have lived through something like that, you can't really be prepared. If you have to bug-out for a wildfire, take all you can, because there is a good chance that will be your last chance. The fires literally melted the siding off people's houses, but they were fortunate to save them. Some people are not that fortunate.

[snake]

I'm keeping this in mind. I'm surrounded by piney woods. If it burns, it's gonna get hot here! :-/

[silvertip]

I live in Montana, and we have not been able to care for the forests for many years, so now we are getting huge wildfires.

I serve on a volunteer department and have been involved in fighting many of these type fires.

I do have a couple observations.

1) Pipes or drains can be fine to protect from radiant heat, however, fire sucks oxygen. You could suffocate if there isn't a supply of air from somewhere.
2) culverts or pipes that pass under a paved road are not safe. Asphalt burns. You could have just put yourself in an oven.
3) the best form of offence is a good defense. If you live in what is called the Urban-Wildland interface, clean your property. Make a defensable space at least 100 yards around your buildings. That means remove trees, cut the grass, Limit the number of bushes that come right up under your windows. Water your lawn to keep it green. Green doesn't burn as readily as brown.
4) when told to evacuate, LEAVE!! Most of the problems we encounter come when people refuse to leave their homes and we end up risking our lives trying to save them. Houses can be rebuild, your kid is one of a kind. Don't risk them by being stubborn.

The wildland firefighters creed is keep one foot in the black.
What that means is have an escape route located at all times. One foot in the black means work near burned areas as the fire won't go where there is no fuel.

Fires kill with radiant heat, and by asphyxiation. Fire needs air to burn and won't hesitate to take it from you. Smoke may contain multiple toxins depending on what is burning. (Fiberglass is rough on the lungs, I got hit with that one).

True firestorms can create their own wind as it sucks air from the surrounding area. If you are not trained to fight fire, Get the Hell away from it!! It will kill you.

If there is a forest or rangeland fire in your area, be ready to leave. Pack your stuff and move it out, or have it ready to move.

Fortune favors the prepared. But most importantly, listen to the professionals. If they tell you to leave, DO IT!!
We don't evacuate areas lightly, and if we say go it means we have a good reason for it. We are trying to save your life.
Putting us in danger because you are smarter than we are or think you are is the main reason people die in these fires.

Think. Learn. Prepare your ground to fight the fire without you. Be ready to evacuate. Stay alive. Everything can be replaced if you are around to replace it. :)

[idris]

Having been up close and nasty to what was only a minor grass fire in the scrub, with a little bit of it running thru the tree tops, I can speak from experience. EXTREME HEAT is the deadly aspect:the rest is but noise and smoke. Like its flip side, the chill factor, a wild fire can kill you, but more quickly than cold can. So, shield yourself from it with whatever is at hand: into water is good, but behind a rock can be, too. An old trick, learned from horses: Run through the fire, rather than away from it, if it is not extreme; that can be an escape route from getting killed. It is a matter of timing, and judgment. Going down, rather than up, gets one away from the hotter heat; but a really bad fire can have wind and gas effects: as seen in Victoria. If you are in a relatively safe place, stay put till the hot spot has passed; a few crackling flames are of no consequence, compared to getting roasted in an intense fire front. My state [New South Wales] had its big burn back in '94. Note: Sydney is 34 S, Los Angeles is 34 N. The smoke from the fires was hanging around here for days, and tomorrow is likely to be as bad as anything that they have recently had, howsoever God wills. whosoever dies thus is surely a martyr, and that fire is as close to hell as they ought to get.
ps EMBER STORM: THINK OF A BLIZZARD, BUT WITH BURNING EMBERS INSTEAD OF SNOW.

[idris]

I have another thought. We have a big drain pipe about a minute from house. 4ft. underground and 60ft long. barring flood at same time it could be a lifesaver. what do yall think?
Seems OK, but ventilation is a two way street: you could lose all of your air, you could be just fine. This is from historical records. Safer than direct heat.