Sheep breed ?

[EarthMother]

??? I've made up my mind to get sheep for my place. Now I need some help deciding on a breed. I'd like to hear from some of you shepards about what breed you have and why. Thanks in advance.

[Drawbar]

You will NEVER get a good answer on this. Over on the sheep forum, (yes there is one) there is constant arguments over this.

http://edgefieldsheep.com/bb/index.php

I have not chosen a sheep breed myself, though I must admit I am leaning towards Sulfolks at this point. I guess its what I have chosen NOT to have that is important, and what I will share.

The first is the hair breeds like Dorpers, White Royals and Katadin's. You give up a lot. Yes you don't have to shear them, but you give up a lot of lambs (singles instead of twins and triplets). As stated earlier, you can build one heck of a shearing room for what you would lose in lamb production.

The second is what you lose at market. White Royal's, Dorpers and Katadin's are considered "altered sheep" and thus the ethnic people that have a lot of lamb in their diets, prefer other breeds first. That being the case, they bring 10-15% LESS money per pound just because of their breed.

I would also caution you to be weary of breeds that are all hyped up. Icelandic sheep for instance. They have a great story behind how they came to the US, but their qualities are pretty much useless.

I guess the real question is this: What do you want for a sheep? One that is for mostly wool production? One that is for Meat? One that has a little of both properties? Ultimately, you should pick a breed that matches YOUR farm, and not try to match your farm to the sheep.

[Drawbar]

Okay so why am I leaning towards Sulfolks?

Well, my Grandfather raised Sulfolk's back when he had sheep and was quite successful at it. I figurewhy mess with a system that worked for 30 years or so.

The other reason is because I want mostly meat, and Sulfolks have a nice carcass to them. They also convert grass to food very fast, but require good pasture to do that.

In my case I have excess pasture, and good high quality pasture to boot. Sulfolks will chow down on my pastures granted, but I have the acreage and quality tamed pastures to feed them. That is why I say you must match the sheep to the farm.

Does this breed work for you? I don't know so I am not suggesting you get this breed, but for the listed reasons, they seem like they will work for me.

[mistyriver]

We raise Southdowns because of their extreme hardiness, their ability to fatten on rough pasture and terrrain and they are smaller so are much easier to handle than the huge Suffolks we used to raise. They also seem to have an easier time lambing and usually they twin.
Our Suffolk ram was over 300 pounds and mean as a snake. Rams that big can and do kill people on occasion.
Southdown meat is excellent. It is said that HenryVIII's favorite dish was Rack of Southdown lamb. We love it too!

[EarthMother]

Thanks for your input. I found a local sheep man, daughters old boyfriends Dad. He and I spoke for an hour or so on the phone. He raises several breeds and said he would help me but suggested we wait until Sept when most of the ewes will be bred. A couple of the breeds I was looking at won't really be a good choice here. I respect all of the input especially with us being rather new to the sheep game.

[QueenoftheFlock]

Hello! I am new here but opinions about sheep? I've got 'em :D

I currently have hair sheep crosses and they are super super easy keepers. Generally they don't need worming, feet are easy to maintain with no problems and while they aren't the super friendliest, they do get used to people. They can eat the crappiest forage that the horses won't touch and really don't require grain, although we do feed it. I would definitely recommend hair sheep or crosses as a "beginner's sheep."

On the other hand, I am also very attracted to the woolie breeds and that just hasn't gone away, despite all the "woolies are SO hard" arguments I hear and read. I also think that dairy sheep are definitely the wave of the future, esp. in the artisan cheese industry.
Decisions, decisions....

Happy to be here and read such interesting things from likeminded people on this forum!

[mistyriver]

I'd like to get some Katahdins. I've heard their meat is the BEST. The ones I've been around were nice sized and even tempered animals. Not too spooky.

[Drawbar]

Over on the Sheep Forum there is quite the discussion regarding Royal Whites. I applaud the sheep breeders that are passionate about their breeds, but I would have never thought a discussion could get so heated regarding choosing a sheep breed.

There are some good discussions over there, so if anyone is interested in sheep husbandry, I recommend that website.

http://edgefieldsheep.com/bb/index.php

[mistyriver]

One thing you might want to consider before getting an "unusual" breed is whether or not you can get enough genetic diversity in that breed. We were very interested in Welsh Mountain sheep but after speaking with a few people who had them we decided against them because there just weren't enough of them in this country that they weren't all closely related.

[Drawbar]

That's a good point. I know a woman over on the sheep forum imported some from France to get her genetics where she wanted them. That is not cheap considering the Scrapie Free Program that is in full force now.

I still have not picked out a breed myself. I keep going back and forth. I have considered Katadins (heck they are a Maine sheep breed) but then birthing rate (singles instead of twins and triplets) and a 15% reduction of market rate has scared me.

I don't know. Everyone has a preference to a breed type, but I have yet to pick one.

[EarthMother]

While I fully intend to wait for the local sheep expert to advise me, I keep looking to see what is available. I've been told the hair sheep have a milder flavor I agree with drawbar about the single births. I have a large family which is getting larger now that my kids are coming home with their kids. I'm not complaining. I really need the meat plus how do you grow with 1 ewe producing 1 lamb? It could take a lot more time than we have when SHTF.

How about more info on those hair/wooly crosses. Which traits of which breed are passed? This might be the best route to go.

I did see some Tunis/Coriedale(sp?) crosses. They sure are beautiful girls. They have been in with a registered Tunis Ram but breeding is not garunteed. In this heat the old man may not be interested or could be shooting blanks. Too much knowledge and not much experience.

[mistyriver]

I'm confused about something that's been stated here.
I know someone who raises Katahdins and his sheep usually have twins. I looked it up online also and online sources say that Katahdins usually have twins, sometimes triplets.
Where are you all getting information that they don't have twins?

[Drawbar]

Sheep Forum...

One woman had Katadin's and she figured she lost 1000 pounds of meat in a 40 head flock. Suddenly the woolies starting looking pretty good considering how much shearing you can do with 1250 dollars. (based on $1.25 a pound market price).

[mistyriver]

You might want to talk to some other Katahdin people because like I said, from what I've heard and the folks I've talked to, they twin as often or more often as other breeds.

[EarthMother]

Katahdins are a popular breed here around me. The guy who will help me in Sept. suggested them. He said the Katahdin has an excellent flavor. As for single births I got that info from a sheep book geared for 4h and FFA kids. It seemed about my speed ;D

[Drawbar]

It might be from more single births as well as a lower carcass size. I would not think that would be the case as I thought Katadin's had a larger carcass size ???

Of course just because something has a larger carcass size, that does not mean you get more meat necessarily. For instance, a Black Angus or White Face has a bigger carcass, but a Holstein has more pounds of the choice cuts of meat. That could be the case with Katadin's.

Either way it does not change the fact that Katadins and other "improved breeds" get 15% less at auction. That is because the ethnic people who have a lot of lamb in their diet, look down upon "improved breeds" and only buy them if its the only thing left. They claim in New Holland (where my market is) they look at Katadin's with disdain.

Now if the plan is to just have some sheep for your own consumption that is one thing, but I plan to make this a viable sheep operation, so reducing my profits by 15% for raising the sheep on the same budget doesn't make much sense for me. At the same time, even here in maine there is a big EasternLamb market too so Katadin's nix that market.

I am not saying they are a bad breed to get, but the improved breeds are pretty trumped up, but there are some negatives to them that are seldom talked about.

[AlchemyAcres]

??? I've made up my mind to get sheep for my place. Now I need some help deciding on a breed. I'd like to hear from some of you shepards about what breed you have and why. Thanks in advance.

Sheep for your own use (meat and fleece) or sheep for commodity production?

I think it's much more important to take into consideration what you'll "net" rather than what you'll gross.

Yeah...some breeds have crazy numbers of lambs (Romanovs), but if those lambs can't be raised on all (or mostly) pasture without expensive inputs, what's the advantage?
Good quality pasture is always the cheapest way to feed any ruminant.

I'd also put hardiness at the top of my list of requirements.

I favor Border Cheviots, they're amazingly tough little beasts, low maintenance, can overwinter outside here (northern PA), they have decent fleeces (you mentioned WTSHTF, so maybe fiber should be an important consideration), they are very hardy protective mothers and can raise twins on all pasture.

I'd put Scottish Blackface (the most popular breed in all of GB, for good reasons) second on my list.....but .their fleece is not as good.


~Martin

[EarthMother]

???whoops, I was not correct on what I read about Kathdin sheep. What was correct , I hope, was another hair sheep that I read about that usually births single lambs. This is the Barbado.As my kids would "My bad".

[quietH2O]

Greetings fellow sheep enthusiasts. It seems the original question was asking for input on shepherd's experience with their breeds.

The question was posed: "I'd like to hear from some of you sheperds about what breed you have and why. Thanks in advance."

I can tell you about my short eight years experience with the breed I've selected and hope it will be of help to someone.

I researched by reading up on various breeds in the book: Raising Sheep the Modern Way; by Paula Simmons. It is my first, and often last, source for advice, comfort, assurance and tremendously helpful information about every facet of sheep that I've encountered. I LOVE this book. My second most valuable book is Managing your Ewe and her newborn lambs; by Laura Lawson. This book has some wonderful charts which allow you to follow a flow chart of symptoms through questions and answers to identify many health issues which commonly occur with ewes and lambs before, during and after lambing.

About the breed I selected. I was looking for a dual purpose breed - with good meat and great wool for hand spinning. Based on Paula Simmons evaluations I selected the Targhee breed and have been supremely pleased. I can highly recommend you consider this breed in your list of options.

What my experience has taught me: they are wonderful mothers, they frequently twin and I've had two sets of triplets. I've also had some disappointing single births. Such is the life a shepherd. I have a small flock. I try to keep only four or five producing ewes and one ram. I have just enough friends who love lamb meat and not quite enough friends interested in the wool to keep me content. Also, only enough land to sustain the 6-12 animals I have grazing at a time.

BTW Sheep are the perfect livestock. Some of the breeds (Targhee included) lamb in the spring when the grass is coming on strong, and you typically butcher in the fall, so you have less animals foraging when the pastures are not growing!!!

Targhee have wonderful temperaments. I have never had an aggressive one even among the rams - which can get upwards of 250 lbs. I've only had to intervene in the birthing on a few occasions (which was actually a thrill and a success.)

They produce wonderful fine wool that is sought after by hand spinners. It is not as fine as Merino (which is too fine for wet climates), but close. They are a white breed, but in recent years a farmer developed a pure natural breed of Targhee. I acquired a ram from them a few years ago and have been getting about 50% natural each lambing season. Beautiful fleeces!!!!

They are a fairly large breed 225-250 lbs yet because of their temperament, are easy to handle. But big is big when it comes to shearing! The advantage is a decent carcass when you are looking for good meat for the freezer. There are other breeds that are more productive meat breeds, e.g. dorset, but if you want good fine wool, too, you'll be happy with the targhee.

We live in a pretty wet region - Pacific Northwet (not a type-o!) Still I've not had significant hoof issues (and I'm guilty of not being the most faithful about regular hoof trimming.)

The biggest health issue I've had has been associated with a certain worm "menangeal" which is contracted through snails. If you don't have snails in your area, no problem. If you do. A regimen of worming will nullify the problem. I've not had a problem since my one episode. My resilient Targhee's bounced back rapidly.

While I've watched other shepherds with other breeds around me struggle with unhealthy flocks, I've enjoyed an amazingly healthy flock. It may be luck; it may be healthier environment (barn management); or it may be the strong constitution of the Targhee breed.

Overall, I've never been sorry for my choice and I would highly, wholeheartedly recommend the Targhee if you want a good dual breed animal with sound health, easy lambing, worry free mothers - all-in-all low maintenance flock.

That's my personal experience.

for more info on the breed.
http://www.ustargheesheep.org/

Hope you find this helpful.

[EarthMother]

RE: targhee sheep.

these are beautiful and the only reason I have for not considering them higher on my list is; I am in MO and there is no assoc. here I can find. The closest breeder to me is Henryetta, Okla. That's 300 plus miles and almost a 4hr. drive one way. I'm afraid the shipping would be cost prohibitive and we are not farmers (semi-retired, semi-survivalist) with horse trailers to go ourselves. If you know of anyone in SW MO. with targhee I'd love to check them out. I do appreciate your sharing info. Mary

[QueenoftheFlock]

Good info QuietH2O.

PS - My "bible" is the wonderful Ron Parker's "The Sheep Book" which can be found and read online BTW at http://hem.bredband.net/ronpar/tsb.html

[quietH2O]

I think you should be able to find Targhee in Missouri. The Targhee assoc. had their sheep show in 2006 at the Sedalia Mo. Sheep show. Also, there is a gal who has a carding business and I think she also raises (or used to at least) Targhee. She lives in Durant, OK (maybe this is the source you are already familiar with.) Gail White - Ozark Carding Mill.
http://www.ozarkcarding.com/

Check out her website. You could maybe call or email her and ask if she knows of any breeders in your neck of the woods.

Also, I think the Targhee Association should be able to give you a list of breeders in you area. Perhaps you already tried them. I wish I could be of more help. ::)

[medic]

When I had sheep I had a Jacobs ram and a Romney ram with a mixed flock or Cheviot, Coreadale (sp), Romney, Jacobs, and Scottish Blackface ewes. The Romneys and Coreadles where the most docile easiest going girls in the fields. The Cheviots where the problem children followed closely by the Blackface. Temperment is something to be considered along with wool and meat production. It sure gets old fast chasing sheep after they jump a fence.

[hvfpaints]

Everyone has a favorite I guess. Mine is the Rambouillet. They are a good meat breed but also have excellent wool for spinners if you are in to that. They also have a longer production life and are hardier compared to the suffolk. I am starting with 6 suffolk/rambouillet cross ewes and a purebred rambouillet ram. I'll let you guys know how the experiment works!

[Drawbar]

Sheep for your own use (meat and fleece) or sheep for commodity production?

I think it's much more important to take into consideration what you'll "net" rather than what you'll gross.

Yeah...some breeds have crazy numbers of lambs (Romanovs), but if those lambs can't be raised on all (or mostly) pasture without expensive inputs, what's the advantage?
Good quality pasture is always the cheapest way to feed any ruminant.

I'd also put hardiness at the top of my list of requirements.

I favor Border Cheviots, they're amazingly tough little beasts, low maintenance, can overwinter outside here (northern PA), they have decent fleeces (you mentioned WTSHTF, so maybe fiber should be an important consideration), they are very hardy protective mothers and can raise twins on all pasture.

I'd put Scottish Blackface (the most popular breed in all of GB, for good reasons) second on my list.....but .their fleece is not as good.

Cheviots are good, but they are not considered docile which may be a consideration if you intend to have a small flock and want to work them a bit. Still,that being the case, I will probably look for a Cheviot Ram next Spring to breed with my Montadales.

As for the pasture system, you are indeed correct on that. It's cheap, but considerations must be made with breed selection being just one of them. In some ways sheep are easier to have on pasture, and yet they can be tougher too. I think a lot of people read books on grass fed beef and then instantly think those ideas can be brought to a flock of sheep and it will work. It won't.

The biggest thing is feed. Its tough to get good winter feed and winter grazing is not much of an option. Unlike bovine which can be changed so they calf any time of year, sheep go into heat based on less hours of sunlight,cool temps and forage. In other words, you got a pretty narrow window in the fall in which to breed them.

That means over the winter they are pregnant. Since sheep abort lambs pretty easily you got to feed them, and feed them proper. I have a special sheep nutritionalist that
tests my feed and then comes up with a custom mix to ensure the sheep are healthy and that I will have lambs come Spring.

I am still moving forward with grass based lamb, but I must say, it may be cheaper, but its certainly not easier. It's pretty darn easy to toss the sheep ½ a pound of grain a piece, and give them a salt block and know their nutritional requirements are met and just be done with it.

At the same time a sheep farmer has to look at the markets. I can direct market every lamb I produce for the foreseeable future but I really don't see grass fed as being the sole reason for that. These are pasture raised sheep, with good husbandry practices and so people know these lambs will taste good. The question is, will they NOT buy the lamb because I toss them a ½ pound of grain during the winter when they need that extra fat and protein to keep from aborting? More then likely they will buy them.

So I am at a crossroads. Do I:

Migrate to grass fed sheep and risk not getting a return on my labor/ nutritionist on retainer ?

Go it alone (no nutritonist) with grass fed sheep but ultimately lose more lambs from aborting ewes?

Just use grain, grass and corn and make life easier on myself?

There is no clear cut answers here. If the market for grass fed lamb goes up, I will be all set to take advantage of it, yet so far for lamb its not been a real market to be reckoned with.

[AlchemyAcres]

As for the pasture system, you are indeed correct on that. It's cheap, but considerations must be made with breed selection being just one of them. In some ways sheep are easier to have on pasture, and yet they can be tougher too. I think a lot of people read books on grass fed beef and then instantly think those ideas can be brought to a flock of sheep and it will work. It won't.


I learned to raise/'graze sheep from a very strong willed British immigrant, she's still going strong at 85 years of age with around 150 ewes.
Zero grain, late spring lambing on pasture....good quality pasture.....good quality hay in winter and a bit of mineral supplementation, mostly kelp.

~Martin

[Drawbar]

It's pretty hard to compare UK Agriculture and US Agriculture if only because of the land mass. I am not disagreeing with you on the benefits of grass fed lamb, but we have options over here that just are not over there.

The biggest thing is tillable land. The tillable land they have is so valuable for human consumption crops that feeding grain and cultivated crops like corn to an animal would be silly. For us, its different. Every 5 years our land is switched from grass to row crops in crop rotation, which is a very good thing. That gives me some grass in which to feed and some corn as well.

Grass grows at 6 tons to the acre, while corn is 19...that is a big difference. Since I am feeding the entire stock, leaves and cob to my sheep, its really no different then feeding grass. Its chopped up fiber, cellulose and protein. The kernals in the cob is where they benefit the most from. Because of that, I don't have to buy grain, the cracked corn giving them the high protein, high energy that they need during pregnancy. Now keep in mind that my winter corn feed is only 50% corn (chipped up stalk, leaves and cob) and 50% 2nd crop hay.

I can still take the lambs born this summer, raise them on pasture and then sell them in the fall as grass fed only lamb. In the winter, the ewes...or seed stock as they are called, can get the corn and get the nutrition they need.

Right now the market is not asking for grass fed lamb. They do love the fact that these lambs were raised right here, foraging on pastures and eating corn that was grown here as well. In other words, these lambs are not grass fed only, but they were not raised in a feedlot and given truckloads of processed grain either.