Ammo, How much is enough?

[hunter63]

Ya'll most likely saw the news item about the guy that was removed from his home , forset fire.
In the house was over 1 million rds ammo, 80 or some such lbs black powder etc.

So whats your thoughts?

[333]

Peace,

Wow, thats a lot of ammo. I thought the couple thousand rounds total, 308, 357/ 38, 45acp, 16 ga, 22mag, 22long, was enough, but maybe I am mistaken. I figure if I need more than this and cant reload them fast enough. I will be picking it up off the enemy.

333

[Tuckahoe]

My idea of enough in my situation would be 1000 rounds for each center fire rifle. 500 rounds for each handgun and shotgun. 3000 rounds of .22 rimfire. A bullet mold and a reloading press would keep me shooting for a long time Everyones situation is not the same but I would feel comfortable with that supply. Remember ammo is very heavy(slow to move). I do not see a million rounds as excessive for a large well prepaired group but far more than an individual would likely ever need.

[RangerRick]

I don't believe there is such a thing as enough ammo as I have been found wanting once in my younger days and fortunately learned from my experience. Possibly that has had a bearing on my position. Any self-imposed limits are determined by how much I can reasonably afford to keep with the understanding that what you buy today will be considerably cheaper than what you will buy in 10 or 20 years.

2 years ago I bought .223 SS109 for $160 per K, this years going rate is $240-$270. The true mark of inflation and in reality, just like money in the bank. What you don't need for pleasure may well be required for your own sake when the SHTF or possibly as the very preservation of your children and or grandchildren and literally "the coin of the realm". What better gift could I leave behind but the ability of self-preservation for my seed. The future may hold perilous times for mankind.

Fail to plan, plan to fail.

;)

Rick

[Badger]

I agree with Ranger Rick.

I don't shoot black powder or pyrodex. Both can go bad in a short amount of time, so I wouldn't keep a large amount on hand.

[Lost_River]

I am not really concerned too much about the end off the world or zombies or whatever ::).

I am simply a cheap Scottsman as my wife calls me.

I stock up on ammo simply because I do not want to pay triple the price later.

Recently I picked up 12,000 rounds of 55 grain softpoint (projectiles, not loaded ammo) for my .223s. This was not for shooting storm troopers or any such thing like that. I just use .223s a lot for rabbits and coyotes and plinking and it was on sale in bulk.

I would be happy with 5K in each of my primary centerfire calibers, both pistol and rifle. 500 in occaisionally used calibers.

[bigswamp]

Enough? Ammo? Them two words just don't fit together.

BigSwamp

[JAK]

Perhaps he should have been better prepared,
for a forest fire that is.

[kd4hvz]

My idea of enough in my situation would be 1000 rounds for each center fire rifle. 500 rounds for each handgun and shotgun. 3000 rounds of .22 rimfire. A bullet mold and a reloading press would keep me shooting for a long time Everyones situation is not the same but I would feel comfortable with that supply. Remember ammo is very heavy(slow to move). I do not see a million rounds as excessive for a large well prepaired group but far more than an individual would likely ever need.

I use a similar mentality. Much of "how much" will depend on what you think you may need it for and for how long. And that depends on where you live, what you expect might happen, and how each person thinks.

One thing to consider is that if you stock a lot of ammo then while it may seem reasonable to you it might bring unwanted attention from authorities if that ever find out. I have certainly seen police go nuts just because someone has chosen to stock pile tens of thousands of rounds "for no apparent reason."

[wax]

Hunter- So whats your thoughts?

Wax- I am often confused in a way by the question: How much ammo do you need?

The question of course pivots on what you need the ammo for; how will it be used; what is the nature of the thing?

I won't go into a great deal of information concerning it, but any library has history books in which detailed schematics are readily available for a post Civil War gattling gun.
These hand cranked guns were very impressive more than one hundred years ago but they are not seen as a common problem in todays world.

Yet a person with a background in design and an understanding of both metalwork and engineering can quite easily replace elements in those old designs with modern componants to create something fairly impressive in a very short time.

Using a common starter from a motor vehicle can in affect produce a modern chain gun that can fire 600 rounds per minute without the possibility of jamming or over heating.
You must know what you are doing... but then that brings us back to how much ammo is too much.

Constructing such a device is illegal and not something that should be attempted on a Saturday afternoon when no one is looking but having the knowledge to construct such a device is not only perfectly legal... it is a survival right.

So how much ammo does one need?

What do you predict your needs will be?

I could secure my location from anything short of a modern military attack. If forced to, I would be substancially harder than Waco to defeat.
But my goal is not, and never has been, defending myself against modern military forces.
For one thing I am a patriot and would not stand against the government I have sworn an oath to.
But more importantly the goal would not be realistic.

However... if my government collapses and the military complex that remains leaves me alone (or is fragmented enough to insure that I do not face air support); well... one million rounds divided by six hundred rounds per minute, divided by four batteries to insure proper coverage would give me about 7 hours to make someone think better of crossing whatever line I choose to draw in the sand.

That sounds about right to me.

But then it is a personal choice.

[hunter63]

My idea of enough in my situation would be 1000 rounds for each center fire rifle. 500 rounds for each handgun and shotgun. 3000 rounds of .22 rimfire. A bullet mold and a reloading press would keep me shooting for a long time Everyones situation is not the same but I would feel comfortable with that supply. Remember ammo is very heavy(slow to move). I do not see a million rounds as excessive for a large well prepaired group but far more than an individual would likely ever need.

I also agree that this would be a good start.

My thoughts are that I don't consider a million rounds excessive, too bad I couldn't afford it.

With practice of at least 100 rd per week, per firearm, it would go pretty fast, and this is a not a problem if you can replace it regularly.

A chain gun is an interesting idea, and I think that the first couple of min. in a fire fight would sorta tell you how determined any intruders are, but not one that most people would invest in or use.

I do like the 10/22 "gatling" gun idea.
A cannon would be cool also, you know a big boom with about a pound of #2 shot.
Just rambling..............

[jjspirko]

I think the bigger issue here is how the media and our government sensationalize the amount of ammo people have. How many times have you heard the suspect had several rifles and over 1000 rounds of ammunition and the public goes GASP!

Then you learn he had a shot gun a few boxes of shells and a 22 and a couple bricks of 22 shells! Drives me nuts! I have lots of ammo don't ask me for an exact count but it is in the many thousands. I reload and I shoot at the range all the time. I own a lot of repeating guns (not machine but like semi auto hand guns, lever rifles and yes some semi auto rifles the liberals call assault rifles). Burning a few hundred rounds in a range session with a buddy or two is nothing. This is outside of survivalism, it is a hobby, I enjoy shooting and tinkering with my guns, knowing them and their capabilities intimately is a happy byproduct.

Yet I am not some paranoid nut just cause I have a lot of ammo! I know some of those guys they catch with guns and a bunch of rounds are up to no good but I think a lot of them are guys just like us and they make a big deal about the number of rounds because they don't really have much else to say except the guy had a few guns (often legally).

[wax]

jjspirko- Yet I am not some paranoid nut just cause I have a lot of ammo!

Wax- No... but you are right in observing that popular media would view you as such.
This is by no means a modern phenomenon though.

In the late seventeen hundreds the media went crazy over "crack pots" keeping cannons on the hills near Washington DC.
And if one replaced cannon with "automatic weapon" the articles would fit very well into any newspaper today.

There was "no reason" for anyone to keep such a weapon! They didn't "need" them.
Only a "nut" would even think they did.

In reality most who possessed them simply kept them for the novelty of it. They fired them off during holidays but the cannons were little more than yard decorations.
Until...

The British who invaded Washington during the War of 1812 were shocked to find citizens... just average citizens... firing cannon shot at them as they burned the city to the ground.

It should ave been an important lesson to those who declare today that I will never need an AK47 but in the end it was simply an important lesson to our potenmtial enemies throughout the world.
Taking American soil will not be easy.
Holding it will be nearly impossible.
It is much safer to fight the American military than the American citizens at home.

[jjspirko]

wax,

Thanks for that story about the cannons, I am some what of a History freak specifically early American history but I never heard that one before. You are right of course about the lesson there but it is no surprise how lost on the world it is. First you ain't never going to hear that story in our politically correct schools today so how would anyone know. Second we are today told that "the people" meant the populous in every use in the constitution other then in the second amendment when it magically was meant to mean "national guard". :o Of course everyone ignores also that no less then George Mason said, " I ask, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers." Note only Government officials were not part of the militia. Ironic ain't it!

Least any further misunderstanding of the meaning exist the very author of American Freedom, Thomas Jefferson stated quite clearly, "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."

[sheen_estevez]

I'm not telling you how much ammo is enough! I just hope I have more than you ;D

That being said, you have to think about how long you want to go or have to go before you can resupply. this is a question that is hard to answer so really you never have enough

[JAK]

I am sure there are laws against it, but what would it take to manufacture your own ammo from scratch, other than black powder and reloads. What is from scratch? How many ammo manufacturing facilities are there in North America and where are they located? What raw materials do they start from? I'm sure they don't go so far as smelting their own ore. What would it take to tool up to recycle spent ammo? Or would quality control be an issue? What about manufacturing weapons after the SHTF? Weren't the Afghans already pretty good at doing this against the Russians?

[wax]

Jak- I am sure there are laws against it, but what would it take to manufacture your own ammo from scratch, other than black powder and reloads.

Wax- I am not sure what you are asking.
Reloading ammunition of course is common, but are you suggesting creating your own smokeless powder for those reloads?

Hmmm...

First of all, black powder is universally under-estimated by the survivalist.
It is legal to home manufacture and easy to use.
It is also much safer to create and handle... so much so that there is plenty of free information out on the Internet that the authorities don't care about.

The formula for Black Powder is 75% Potassium Nitrate (salt peter), 15% Charcoal, and 10% Sulfur (iron pyrites).
However, you just can't mix these chemicals together and expect to have Black Powder. The mixing process for Black Powder is just as important as the formula. Black Powder MUST be made in a Ball Mill (using lead balls) to work properly.

There are many ways to make higher explosives but I can not discuss them in an open forum (and will not email instructions so kids... don't even bother) .

But the question must eventually become overall worth.
In my opinion...
After a SHTF and an approach of an end to stored ammunition, one should forget about realistically replacing manufactured ammunition with home-made.

It is much easier to convert a modern firearm to black powder.
Much easier and much safer.

As I said, people under-estimate black powder a great deal.
It was used for hundreds of years before our modern smokeless and has a number of distinct advantages in a survival situation.

[JAK]

Very interesting. Answered many questions. Thanks.
Also raises a few more...

What sort of ammunition can be made with black powder?

[wax]

Jak- What sort of ammunition can be made with black powder?

Wax- My own post SHTF - end of the world as we know it plans involve a layered approach.
Because .58, 50, .44, and .36/.32 calibers are common in black powder configs I have invested in bullet molds and a small number of current weapons to utilize them.

The funny thing is that my kids and I actually enjoy our monthly black powder shoots more than our weekly modern firearms training. And the difference in cost of course is insane!
We are not limited by costs in black powder practice at all.

We have had limited success in converting modern firearms to black powder. Shotguns are easy when using a sabot round, we sinply drill a hole and create a flashpan with flintlock ignition.
A .410 comes out to about a .9mm and a 20 gauge is much like the old "Brown Bess" .50 cal.

The thing is that a modern barrel is not threatened at all by an "overload" and I have tested them to the extreme, but modern rifled barrels "foul" at a much higher rate than one would expect.

In terms of defensive ordinance, we use a force modifier method.
My sons construct black powder cannons and have a very strict testing procedure concerning them.
I am always amazed at what they are able to produce just scrounging local junkyards.

Believe it or not, you can create a very nice oak barreled black powder cannon in a very short time!
They built theirs based upon an episode of "Mythbusters".

I have limited them to a six inch metal barrel (minimum of 1 inch thick walls) using 8 oz of powder.
Yet the spread pattern using nuts upon firing such a system is impressive.
They prefer a three inch barrel using 4 oz because it is much easier to "toss around" and handle.

Our largest is an impractical bowling ball morter which weighs 1600 lbs. It is cool to say the least but of very little "survival" use.

It must be said that even though black powder is "safer" than other home-made explosive options it is an explosive!
Read before you take action.
Then read some more.
Then plan.
Then read.
Then try things out.

The reason why you want to read is that safety is important, and there is a great deal of info out there because it is so important.

A failure on any given barrel will be on the first shot.
Don't ever forget this fact and expect all barrels to explode into deadly shrapnel on that first shot.
Understand that a black powder weapon is a tool.
All tools require safety considerations.

[Malamute]

Primers are the weak link in ammo. IF you have primers, you can cast bullets, and use black powder to reload modern rounds. The power will be less than the smokeless equivalent, but you can make useful loads for hunting or defense. Primers are not hard to buy or store, and properly stored, will last a LONG time, like a lifetime.

Black powder is very stable in long term storage. I don't know where the idea came from that it is not, but history tells us that when kept dry, it lasts very well for a very long time. A guy on THR bought two civil war percusion Colts that had been left loaded and stored under the floor of a tack room in a barn in Missouri. He put fresh caps on them and they fired. Others report that they have fired old black powder ammo and it works.

One of the biggest problems with black powder cartridge loading is the bullet lube. Modern lubes are not good for black powder use, nor are petroleum based oils or lubricants. The complaints about the terrible mess black powder makes are usually related to trying to use smokeless bullet lubes and petroleum based oil in their barrel. Yes, black powder is messy and dirty, but it can be made worse with the wrong loading ingredients. For bullet lube, natural tallow, crisco, beeswax, and commercial black powder formula lubes seem to have the best results. For keping the barrel rust free, olive oil has a following. I've been using olive oil in the barrel of my percussion pistols since getting intetrested in black powder again. No problems. The consensus is that use of the lubes mentioned, and cleaning ONLY with hot water, or hot soapy water, the guns are much easier to clean, and the barrel will season and become easier to keep clean over time. Cleaning a black powder gun with hot water is faster and simpler than cleaning a modern gun (detail cleaning)with solvents and smokeless ammo.

Remember, with black powder in cartridges, you need compression of the powder to get consistant results, and an air space in the cartridge with black powder can cause a situation simlar to a barrel obstruction, meaning you can bulge or burst your barrel. There are several online forums with information on black powder cartridge loading. It is fairly common with old style guns like Sharps rifles, and many old Winchester models, and many cartridge handguns of late 1800's type.


How much is enough ammo? Depends on where you are, *how much you hunt, and how big the hoardes of invading aliens, Canadians, zombies etc you envision. If conservative, a few hundred rounds would likely get most thru their life if used strictly for hunting (big game hunting).


For those that haven't been keeping up, ammo is getting more expensive and harder to get every passing week. Much of the common caliber bulk surplus ammo is now, for practical purposes, unavailable. Many countries now have their surplus ammo destroyed for component metals rather than sell on the open market as ammo. Import permits have been denied for some, (having nothing to do with AP or not)and appear to be getting harder to get, and the metals market, the war, and demand have made ammo a tough commodity to lay hands on. The war isnt the only reason. The US Military is NOT using 8mm mauser, old 308 stocks from South Africa and Portugal, old 30-06 and 223 stocks from small countries around the world, 303 brit, etc.

A year ago 308 was $140/thousand. Today, IF you can find any decent quality ammo, it's about $500/thousand.


223 was about $150/thousand a year ago, today, IF you can find some, it's been in the $380 and UP, and still going up. There has been SOME wolf 223 coming in, but it doesnt last long when it turns up, and the price has been going up on it as well. The Wolf doesn't work well in all guns either.

The general answer on the forums when someone asks about "good quality, inexpensive bulk ammo in X caliber" is "You waited too long, the gravy train is over, get whatever you can that works, for whatever the going price of the day is and consider yourself fortunate".


All the domestic ammo companies have announced a %15 price increase for sept. Somebody mentioned Cabelas having a *notice in their new catalog that there may be up to a %100 price increase for ammo. These price increases are on top of all the recent increases. I haven't seen the Cableas catalog or notice.


If the cost of shooting black powder guns is negligable, I want to know where you are buying your caps and powder. Powder is now in the $10 to $15/lb range now, and caps are about$3 or more per hundred. If using a 35 grain charge in a pistol, thats 200 rounds/lb, so, $5 to $7.50 per hundred, add the caps, for $8 to $12.50/hundred, not counting the bullets, about $7 to $9 per hundred for store bought. You can load centerfire pistol rounds for that or less with all store bought components. If you cast your own bullets it gets pretty reasonable. I like my black powder pistols, but economy isn't one of the reasons. Modern primers are in the $2.25/hundred range, powder is about $16/lb, and you get about 1000 loads from a lb of Unique, so $1.60/hundred, and cast bullets are about $6/hundred from commercial casters when bought in bulk.

[wax]

Malamute- I want to know where you are buying your caps and powder.

Wax- You really need to go back and read what I wrote.
And perhaps start thinking like a survivalist rather than a consumer!

We make our own powder (see formula) and use flintlock ignition.

If you are going to use "caps" you might as well... well... fire modern ammunition because you are not planning for a time in which it is no longer available. (You can produce your own caps but that skill is beyond most readers here).

I can make my own Potassium Nitrate (Salt Peter), but I often buy it in bulk from places like skylighter.com (who has a pretty good explanation of how it is/was created before it could be found for sale in "nitre-beds").

Potassium nitrate can be purchased for around five dollars per pound, but of course three quarters of a pound will produce more than one pound of black powder so the cost is almost negated.

Of course, if one does not learn to make it then one might as well buy manufactured ammunition and wait to die when that option runs out.

Charcoal is charcoal... and no it does not need to come in a bag with a logo on it!
Read and learn how to make your own.

Iron pyrite (often called "fool's gold") is a sulfur and I have a local source to mine, just about every person in North America does but of course the problem is clear because even though it is basic fifth grade science information most people fail to think.
One can start out by buying a product called "Dusting Sulfur" from a local garden supply store.

I'm not slamming on Malamute for his post, but it is a clear example of the problem in today's world.
If you need to buy black powder and then buy caps to ignite it... then presumably buy weapons to utilize the purchased powder and caps then you might as well stock up on thousands of rounds and pretend that you are into survivalism.

I say pretend because if the SHTF then you will eventually find yourself faced with two very sad facts:
1: You are not a survivalist
2: There are some who are


It is very important to point out that there is only so far I am willing to go concerning potentially dangerous activities (like producing your own black powder) on an open forum like this, and unless you know me and I have observed you over time I will not email information so don't even try kids.

Yet the fact is that other than the forced experience I gained in my youth I have no advantage concerning access to knowledge over any other American.
The information is right there at your local library... and now in the largest library ever known (the Internet itself).

Still... it appears to be easy for modern man to get confused by affluence. It is understandable in a way but survivalism is at it's core a refusal to cede such knowledge to others.

Affluence dictates that the average citizen does not know how the food reaches the table he or she enjoys, but a survivalist can not allow such ignorance.
In all things ask:
"What is the nature of the thing?"
"What does it do?"
"How could I make it for myself... or replace it if I must?"

Otherwise you will waste your time making lists.
Pretending that survival relies on possessions instead of knowledge.
Once that mistake is made you will find yourself relegated to asking questions like, "Where you are buying your caps and powder?"

One might as well ask, "where do you buy your gasoline?" to a man who owns a team of horses in a survival situation. Funny in a way... but very sad.

Again... whatever you "buy" must be able to be replaced in some way or you are just playing a game that you can't afford to lose.

[wax]

Mal- A year ago 308 was $140/thousand. Today, IF you can find any decent quality ammo, it's about $500/thousand.

Wax- I just purchased 200 .308 rounds (165-grain Speer boattail soft-point) for $134.99 from Cabela's.
That would come to $679.95 per 1000.

[commonsense]

A large wholesale company here in the east sent a letter out saying Sept 1,2007 And across the board increase of 15% for all ammo would be in effect. And most likely another 12% 1/1/08

[Mac_Muz]

Wax, Just a little correction if you please...

I shoot flinters all the time.

A bess is .75 cal and uses a ball of 0.735"" unpatched and slightly smaller depending on the patch with round ball (RB) This is very close but bigger than 12 ga.

12 ga is closer to 0.713 depending on the maker

There was a Bess "Officer's Model" in .69 cal

A Nor' West gun is 0.62" cal, and uses a 0.600 ball with a 0.10" patch, and can run 0.595 with a thicker patch. This is very close to 20 ga.

I am a bit more concerned, but only since you didn't mention how you converted a breech plug to the shot gun, and I have no clue as to which shotgun you converted.

However the way you write assures me what ever you did, and allowed your children to use has worked.

Still I must admit I am curious. I am not doubting and or asking for proof.

I could see for example adding left and right side locks to a top break double and to fit in the mortise on the butt stock with ease. So no doubt you would have "breeched the tubes" and drilled them.

Which makes me wonder if you did a
"patent breech" like machining, which I don't care for so well, but certainly only because cleaning one SUCKS!

I wonder did you make a the lock and the springs? I have and don't. That little "fly" and the # 4 taps are a royal pain in blind holes to tap with out breaking them.

I broke off 3 the last time >:(

My smallest is a little broom stick of a .40 cal as a custom built on a Getz barrel; a girlfriend of mine didn't want.

She asked if I knew anyone wanting a long rifle as it is 52.5" over all. She speicified "lefty' and when she said that I just about jumped her!

I handed over every last cent I had then, which was a great deal, and later made another offering of trade silver, as I just wasn't right with her price as it was..

Still I think she lost apx 400 in value, but then I ain't dead...... yet.

AND I had no idea cannon were scattered after the Rev War around the hill's of DC! Wow that's interesting as blue blazes, and how did you come by that ?

[VillageIdjit]

I read somewhere on the internet as a tagline:
There are only TWO times that you can have too much ammunition, when you are swimming or when you are on fire.

Vic

[Farmer]

I look at it from the standpoint of the use for the ammo.

Hunting would take less ammo, so stock hunting ammo appropriately. If you're preparing for a long-term situation, it would be good to figure how much you'll need for that duration. 1000 rounds for each hunting gun would be a start, unless you're a bad shot or will need to feed a lot of people.

Self-defense situations could eat up ammo quickly, especially if multiple situations arise. If you will be in an area where you expect to be in combat, you could use up BUNCHES of ammunition quickly.

I note that .223 ammunition has gone through the roof, and the supply has dwindled as more is sent to the Middle East.

Consider the fact that a weekend combat training class can burn up 1000 rounds in three days.

Tailor it to your situation, but I'd try to keep at least 3000 rounds for each primary defense handgun and 1500 for each backup. 5000 each for each defense rifle and shotgun, and probably double that for .223. 1000 each for hunting rifles, and 5000 .22lr. Rifles and shotguns are complicated by the fact that you may want to have several different loads for different purposes. Modify those overall numbers for the different cartridge/shell configurations you will use.

Split your supplies to keep all from getting trashed or taken in one swoop. Pack and store your supplies well both for safety and for longevity. Try to set up some of your supply stashes with smaller quantities to use for trading. You don't want someone seeing the total of what you have.

I try to go every week or two and pick up one or two boxes of ammo. I watch for sales and specials and buy more if budget permits. For instance, lately I've been scouring the Wal-Marts for Federal Power Shok .308 150gr soft points. They have them for 10.97 per box. Considering that they sell in the gunshop for 28.99, I've bought all I could find. I'm also going to pick up a big box of .22lr, which I hear is really cheap.

You can't have too much ammo. And you won't know till it's all over whether you have enough.