Where will you "bugout" to?

[jajbellsouthnet]

A lot of people talk about having "bugout bags" that they will use in the event of an emergency. I can understand fleeing if the threat is a natural disaster which renders your home uninhabitable. Camping out in your own tent would be preferable to living in a shelter for the masses. But many posters say that their bags are for TEOTWAWKI (WTSHTF).
If your home is intact, why would you evacuate and where would you go? Chances are that the roads will be jammed with stalled traffic (remember the interstates out of New Orleans?), you will run out of gas and gas will not be available. Are you going to walk out?

[edward_4576]

I think this has been addressed all over but for me there is no Bug - Out. A temporary evacuation yes but if it gets so bad that my home is uninhabitable it will truly be a SHTF scenario. I've thought about a lot of stuff and I don't see where I live getting hit with something that devastating. Yep even I have said it myself about the ones that said "But it'll never happen to me." and it does. I truly don't think that a real SHTF scenario will have Irwin Allen special effects. I think it'll be a bunch of small things all snowballing into one big cluster.....

I do have preparations if I have to leave long term but it's one of those scenario's that you see coming and can take your time leaving. All my other planning and training are to make sure my home, my blessed plot is safe from outsiders and to allow me to get there.

[RangerRick]

My primary desire would be to "bug in" right here at the home. That being where most material is located. If for some yet to be seen reason that won't be possible I do have a small lot with a travel trailer down on a lake in Texas near a family member but it isn't an fond option.

Ranger Rick

[knight88]

For many holding in place is by far the best option BUT many things must be considered. Safety of self and family from various threats. Availability of basic needs, food, shelter etc. Duration of threat. Can you maintain security, protect yourself and family from???? Looks like those in rather remote areas are better prepared than most.
I for one, will probably standfast at the farm in TN. The ranch in AZ is untenable due to the proximity of the mex. border and its associated problems even in "good times". Things to remember are; food shelter and WATER. Andy

[Uncle_Alvah]

The logistics of having a retreat and supplies are pretty daunting. Would suck a whole lot to "bug out" and when you get to wherever find out your food and ammo is gone. The chore of transporting sufficient supplies to another location is substantial as well. An ideal situation might be where one has a friend or family member to keep things secure at your retreat, but, for most folks, "bugging out" to a retreat is fantasy.......

[wy0mn]

My place is 28 miles off the pavement, takes an hour to get there in good weather. Winters are often impossible without a snowmobile. Only one bridge to dynamite when TSHTF. The river is only navigable for a few months of the year, and within rifle range of my soon-to-be reinforced homesite.
Summer weather is high-desert prairie. You cannot carry enough water to walk in, not during the day; maybe at night, I'll bury what the rattlers leave.
Who'd walk 28 miles down a dead-end road thats not even on the maps, just to get sniped?
Seven years of planning went into the purchase of this place.
Yup, I'm paranoid.

[Coleen]

Wow! Great planning wyomn.

But did you see my book reviews about the books "Spychips" and "No Place To Hide"under the "Books" thread? Give those a read. Might be beneficial in your plans.

[wy0mn]

Haven't read them,but am aware how hard it is to stealth out in todays techy world. Just not ready to give up on radio communications, cell phones, & web dish. Sure I could toss them in the river, but I'd rather people read these posts, realize the futility of an assault, and head on for easier pickins'.
Theres a point of diminishing gains/returns making it infeasable.
1) its too far out to make a practical base of operations for banditry.
2) a deadman switch of explosives/incendiaries makes it a long walk in/out for absolutely NO gain.

[j.m]

I have given this alot of thought. Due to my Location I cannot see a better place to be. my folks live 6.5 miles north of me , they have ten acres and I have ten acres each about 3.5 miles from avery small town.
My bug out bag is to simply get me home from the town I work in of about 150,000 . I can be in the country so to speak in about 3 minuets driving. I am thinking soley on getting home to the family even if it takes me a couple of days to make the 18 miles.

[sheen_estevez]

My place is 28 miles off the pavement, takes an hour to get there in good weather. Winters are often impossible without a snowmobile. Only one bridge to dynamite when TSHTF. The river is only navigable for a few months of the year, and within rifle range of my soon-to-be reinforced homesite.
Summer weather is high-desert prairie. You cannot carry enough water to walk in, not during the day; maybe at night, I'll bury what the rattlers leave.
Who'd walk 28 miles down a dead-end road thats not even on the maps, just to get sniped?
Seven years of planning went into the purchase of this place.
Yup, I'm paranoid.
I'm planning on bugging out to your place ;D ;) No just kidding, I am with most the best place to bug out to is home sweet home, the BOB is to aid in getting me here, of course living in the woods not too much will happen around my parts, most people here are pretty much self sufficient. Of course we have to worry about the people from the larger cities in the region from wanting to bug out here.

[Nickathome]

Unless there was an atomic bomb blast, I prefer to wait it out at home. I'll hunt for our food if need be, collect firewood from the local woods for heat and light, collect water from the local stream if without power, and basically live like the Amish until society gets it head back together. *I'd like to be there so when the "have nots" from the city come strolling down my lane, a gentle wave from my rifle muzzle will let them know they are not welcome and to move on.... >:(


*

[JAK]

My thinking is to "bug out" with teh family regularly for at least a week once each season, for a camping trip to the camp or into the woods; either car camping or on foot, or a boat trip up a river or along a coast. I think if this is part of your lifestyle then you will be more prepared if you every need to doo something for more serious reasons, not that there is anything much more serious than a family living the natural life the way they should in the first place. Similarly I think it makes sense to live off grid and without shopping, or driving the car, for a week every season. A home shouldn't be dependant on uninterupted power and access to grocery stores, and convenience stores. I think this makes for more than just good practice. It makes for good living.

My choices to bug out to, should we ever get it together:
Spring: To a small camp on our woodlot, for sugaring.
Summer: Up the river or down the coast, small boat.
Fall: Perhaps to the camp again, for some hunting.
Winter: Winter camping trip, by car and then on foot.

Much to think about. Much to do. Times a ticking.

[edward_4576]

One other problem about bugging out is similar to what happened to one of the forum members. He was building a house and had tools and supplies stolen even though he had it in a secure container. I think we've all seen the crooks who ram an ATM machine and some how or other steal it. If a crook wants in they will get in. Imagine the worst case situation where you bug out and when you get to your refuge it's been looted or someone has "jumped your claim". I can't think of a more demoralizing event.

[Nickathome]

One other problem about bugging out is similar to what happened to one of the forum members. *He was building a house and had tools and supplies stolen even though he had it in a secure container. *I think we've all seen the crooks who ram an ATM machine and some how or other steal it. *If a crook wants in they will get in. *Imagine the worst case situation where you bug out and when you get to your refuge it's been looted or someone has "jumped your claim". *I can't think of a more demoralizing event.

In that case, it makes sense to *"bug out" with your shelter vs leave it unattended while spending most of your time at your primary residence.. Much better to drive in and park a small tent camper or rv inconspicuously off a lonesome logging road deep in your favorite deer hunting area, or whatever. This IMO would be alot preferable to arriving at your long vacant cabin in the mountains, only to find charred cinders leftover from a previous act of arson from the local "deliverance" rednecks! *

[edward_4576]

Sounds good to me, know where I can get an RV cheap? ;)

[Crash]

A lot of people talk about having "bugout bags" that they will use in the event of an emergency. I can understand fleeing if the threat is a natural disaster which renders your home uninhabitable. Camping out in your own tent would be preferable to living in a shelter for the masses. But many posters say that their bags are for TEOTWAWKI (WTSHTF).
If your home is intact, why would you evacuate and where would you go? Chances are that the roads will be jammed with stalled traffic (remember the interstates out of New Orleans?), you will run out of gas and gas will not be available. Are you going to walk out?

jajbellsouthnet,

I agree with you. Bugging out will probably just make you vulnerable to groups of BGs looking for targets of opportunity. And, as stated by others, what happens when you arrive at your destination and everything you had stashed there has been stolen? And I don't think it's practical to try bugging out and taking everything you might need for a prolonged stay.

My plan is: (1) Have a plan; (2) Stockpile food, water, medical supplies, self-defense weapons and ammo, etc; (3) Get together with friends and neighbors you can depend on, work out a plan (see (1) above), assign roles for self-defense, medical care, etc.; (4) Have emergency communications means; (5) Practice what you have planned with your family and the "team" outlined in (3) above.

Does this sound far-fetched? Maybe so, but I don't think it's any worse than trying to bug-out when TSHTF.


Crash

[SwampRooster]

What about hiding your things underground? When or if someone came to steel it they could only get what is out. They can't take what they can't see. Only bury things if things started getting bad. When you see that start digging.

I've been tring to think of some kind of container to brury things in. Does anyone have any ideas?

If you are alone and had to leave your site to hunt or fish you can't take all of your stuff with you.

It's hard to depend on others in a life or death situation. Alot of people don't think like I think. That I know anyway.

[Spikejerk]

PVC water pipe with the ends capped off. Seal one end and add a screw top to the other. Throw a few bags of mousture absorbing crystals in when you close it up.

[ryanmercer]

My place is 28 miles off the pavement, takes an hour to get there in good weather. Winters are often impossible without a snowmobile. Only one bridge to dynamite when TSHTF. The river is only navigable for a few months of the year, and within rifle range of my soon-to-be reinforced homesite.
Summer weather is high-desert prairie. You cannot carry enough water to walk in, not during the day; maybe at night, I'll bury what the rattlers leave.
Who'd walk 28 miles down a dead-end road thats not even on the maps, just to get sniped?
Seven years of planning went into the purchase of this place.
Yup, I'm paranoid.

You are paranoid... I envy you :) :) :)

[jjspirko]

In a lot of what this is like asking what do you do when a car breaks down, what I mean by that is there are many answers. If my car over heats, I add water, or if the pump is gone you kind of stuck. If the thermo is gone you take it out and get by until you get another one. Hell that is just over heating! Break down is a big word, could be a flat tire, blown engine, bad battery each has a different answer.

Same with a SHTF senario. How wide spread is the SHTF and what is the cause? Each has a different answer.

Like in many/most instances even though I am living in a large city [Arlington, TX], I would dig in not bug out. If it was a short term scenario or even just regional in nature I would dig in, I have plenty of stored grub, even for the dogs! I have a pool with over 35,000 gallons of water that would be good in all but a flood. I have months worth of propane for the grill, etc. Even with no electricity or running water we could do fine for months.

We are also fortunate and own a second home it the Arkansas mountains on a dirt road miles from anywhere. If the total melt down ever came of if terrorists were popping nukes or bios in the cities we would head up there. We have plenty of food stored there and all the comforts we would need to again make it even longer. Well for water, lots of forage if things got real lean etc. If life got to be dangerous in that place it might not be worth living anyway!

I think many people are over the top nuts on this subject. The most common break down is likely to be a natural disaster or a regional riot.

I am even skeptical of the honest terrorist threat, not cause I am some peacenick but because of the fact that nothing since 911 has happened. If I was one of them wacko scum and could round up 20 some guys to die in plane crashes I am pretty sure I could round up 100 some odd wackos that would kill people but not die to do it. With 100 such wackos doing things like poisoning food, setting fires, sniping folks like those idiots in DC a few years ago etc. 100 people could bring this nation to its knees.

Given that has not happened I just wonder how big the terrorist threat really is! Now don't go lynching me for that, I joined the Army at 17 and served in Panama and then Iraq/Saudi the first time around. I just honestly wonder what is really going on sometimes,

[WileyCoyote]

When the SHTF, most folks - no matter how prepared they think they are - aren't. I'm happy to be here where so many are.

I was known as "Gramma" on a blog during the whole Y2K panic. I found out that people are completely ignorant, woefully so, when it comes to "preparing for the big one". One guy lived in an apartment in Chicago and was storing filled gas cans in his closet in prep for a getaway. Another was having a portable toilet delivered to the back of his row house in NYC so he could "go" whenever he needed to because the w/s lines wouldn't work or would become clogged when everything stopped. I gently advised people on real survival techniques, especially in the big cities. Some got it. Most did not.

I currently live in an area where hurricanes are rare but evacuations - especially from other states - are not. People load their cars and drive in a panic at least twice a year. They drive only on interstates, and do not head west away from the hurricane but north - right up its path. The gas stations run out of gas, and they either fight like animals outside of the stations, or park their cars and wait for someone to save them. Diabetics and heart patients and patients on oxygen do not bring extra supplies with them, and pass out and even sometimes die in their cars. Others do not bring money with them and expect local folk to give them food and shelter when their cars roll to a stop - even pay for their gas and food to go back home. All this without a hurricane ever touching land near them!

So while a natural or man-made disaster may be the impetus, what will happen in the aftermath is what will be the real problem, as people who have lived off of others and the government all of their lives will expect those same "others" to continue to provide for their wants and needs as well as their own families. When that doesn't happen, you will see violence.

Where I'm bugging out to is where people don't go, don't want to go, and don't think to go. Everyone will head for the big cities to loot and to take advantage of the weak and unarmed. Without viable transportation, people will huddle together in groups and expect others to save them. Few will head into the woods or lonely areas - they know that people in cities don't have guns, and people in the wild do. They think that there will be easily available food and medical care in cities. They do not realize that towns and cities of any size will also be "Predator Central".

[wax]

Wiley- They do not realize that towns and cities of any size will also be "Predator Central".

Wax- The "bugout" has been a poorly understood concept since I was a child in the 70's.
The concept was originally sound (and still is if handled in its original context) but it has become so convoluted by misconception and confusion that it is almost a joke today... almost.

As others have pointed out, those who are in an urban environment do not need to "bugout" unless the threat is local. And of course if a threat is local then we are not discussing a scenerio in which the bugout is required.

The bugout was designed to insure a resource could reach the safety of his or her survival compound; a preperation for short term travel to security.

Many people today discuss the BOB as a simple safety kit with simple survival tools aimed at comfort... not survival.

My own family still uses the CD designed BOBs of the nuclear warfare era: No matter where they are in the world they have a plan to reach the safety of our family compound.

In a complete "End of the world as we know it" scenerio one must be able to extract oneself from urban areas but one also must have a goal to reach.
A portion of those extraction resources may or may not include a rescue function originating at the goal or source.
Part of the BOBs my family and close associates practice involve communication and information transfer to and from our compound: My sister activated her BOB on 9-11 to announce her safety and insure that I (we) would not leave the safety of our compound in order to extract her.

There are many... many things which I can not and would not discuss concerning my own preparedness. There are really two issues involved in this:

One: Supplying certain information in a media such as this forum carries a responsibility. Minors can read what is posted here and a small amount of information concerning howto can be very dangerous.

Two: Entering my domain uninvited during an "End of the world as we know it" scenerio will get someone killed. There is nothing wrong with knowing a general location for me but anything specific could cause someone to make the wrong decision in a time of emergency.

Our general rule concerning emergency evacuation is one hundred miles from any city over 100,000 in population.
There are exceptions but that rule must be accomplished prior to the emergency in question.

Each of the continental United States has two points of communication in our mutual BOBs.
These are areas where a message must be left in a visable and clear way in order to insure the "passenger" can be located and secured.
Directions must be clear and concise, without ambiguity.

The passenger is any person who has been determined to be an important resource in an EOW scenerio... this could mean loved ones or it could mean associates who have agreed to supply services for the protection and resources which can be offered by reaching my location.

The passenger must understand two things:
One: That he or she carries 99% of the burden to get here.
Two: That he or she carries 100% of the burden to communicate action and intent.
Because if I risk sending out resources from the security of my location they will be intent on achieving the goal I set them.
They will be acting with extreme prejudice... in ways that only a very serious emergency can justify.

In a scenerio in which the rules of society have broken down, the most dangerous predator will be me and my associates.
We will not need to take resources from others, but we will be moving quickly and will not hesitate to deny others the resources we retain.

Which brings us back to BOB.
Decide that you will suvive now, before the situation develops.
Talk to those who manage the destination you desire.
Agree on the conditions under which that detination will become open to you.
Then decide again that you will survive until you can reach that destination.

Understand that when the rules of society break down then you must be willing to enforce your own rules with extreme prejudice. Even a possible threat must be dealt with in a controled but absolute manner.
Do not die easily!

[livesalone]

Wax,
I, too, remember the 70's. When I think about when TSHTF, I always think FIRST of a nuclear attack or accident, and then of whatever other disaster that might happen. Regardless of WHAT causes the "end of the world as we know it", I don't think it will be anything that will be resolved in a matter of months or even a year or so. Therefore any plans need to be long term, not just an immediate plan for a temporary inconvenience. If anyone here has not read it I suggest reading the book "Alas, Babylon" . You may be familiar with it but I'll bet many (young people especially) have never heard of it. I believe it was written in 1956 by Pat Frank. It describes (in novel form) the aftermath of a widespread nuclear attack and it's effect on a small town in Florida. Seriously outdated as far as technology goes but a real eye-opener to just how dependent we are on things that we are so used to having that we don't consider what we would do if they were suddenly taken away. Anyone seriously considering a bug-out should (in my humble opinion) read this book before making their plans. I'm sure that many people here already have considered all the things mentioned in this book but I'm thinking primarily of anyone new to this idea that may not have fully grasped how quickly and completely things could fall apart.

[longshot]

i am at my fallback position, i have no where to run to.

ls

[bookwormom]

ditto. and I am afraid too many would come to my place that I do not want to show up and I am not talking about family, I donot have family here. rural areas can be a bit like a ghetto, go in our store down in the village, junkfood and soda pop at very high prices, and they stay in business. Not a single backyard garden in the whole town this year. there used to be two, but the one man died and I guess the old lady who tended the other got too old, too. I am too close to ghetto situations, and it is my fault I did not realize there is such a thing in the country when I bought our place. I hope to God my kids listen to me and get on this side of the Ohio river, get a bicycle and ride home during the night. If husband would go along I would sell this place and I know where I would go.

[WileyCoyote]

Two: Entering my domain uninvited during an "End of the world as we know it" scenerio will get someone killed. There is nothing wrong with knowing a general location for me but anything specific could cause someone to make the wrong decision in a time of emergency.

Our general rule concerning emergency evacuation is one hundred miles from any city over 100,000 in population.
There are exceptions but that rule must be accomplished prior to the emergency in question.





Very true; all of it. But I am particularly interested in Number Two: very true indeed. Some of my aquaintances "know" where we are going - they are wrong. The only ones who know are our children. But what do you do when your children want to "save" their friends too - and you know that their "friends" would only be a drain on your resources, and provide no viable or necessary skills, and may in fact endanger the group simply because they are not bright enough or schooled enough in self-protection to be silent, have an "escape" or "disappear" mentality, nor do without creature comforts?

You have to explain to your children that there can be no one else allowed. You raise your children to be able to estimate who is a viable survivor by skills learned and attitude, so that if they bugout to their own place they will not endanger their children or themselves. Our children have been raised to understand the serious nature of survival; our son takes his wife out shooting and hunting and trains her in self defense and survival.

I think it is mistake that many will make that they can save their friends and their friends' friends, or entire groups of their family. Survival will depend on all those in the group - and can be compromised by just one. Many people who currently believe that they are my friends may be mistaken when survival is the issue.

[sheen_estevez]

But what do you do when your children want to "save" their friends too - and you know that their "friends" would only be a drain on your resources, and provide no viable or necessary skills, and may in fact endanger the group


This is a problem that has to be dealt with, you can't endanger your group. Sad thing is I have some family members that fall into the above situation. :-/

[mkay882]

snipped for space:


*Well for water, lots of forage if things got real lean etc. *If life got to be dangerous in that place it might not be worth living anyway!



:-/ how would i get water from my water well w/o electricity?

i'm new here tonight and obviously have a long way to go.

TIA

[wax]

mkay- how would i get water from my water well w/o electricity?

Wax- Great question!
Chances are your water is pumped from your well by the use of an electric pump... a pump is a pump is a pump.
But most modern people never need to think about this fact.

My sons are required to learn hydronic basics prior to the age of ten, my seven year old is currently learning how to syphon water before he is expected to syphon gasoline... because a mouthful of water is much safer.
But he also must demonstrate the one way valve and the diaphram, and the screw... the point being that every adult should be able to access stored liquid without power.

A simply hand pump can easily replace any electrical pump you currently utilize.
It can easily do so if you have knowledge about pump systems and understand how a pump works... the endeavor is obviously much different if one does not have that knowledge.

Start with simple "Google" searches, things like basic pumps and raising water without electricity.
Then become more specific: What is my system currently, how could I convert it to hand power with the best affect?

[AlchemyAcres]

:-/ how would i get water from my water well w/o electricity?

i'm new here tonight and obviously have a long way to go.

TIA

How deep is your well?

What's the static water level?

Short term emergency or long term replacement (should things go bust)?

If your static water level is deeper than about 24 feet from the surface than you'll need more than just a basic hand pump, generally.

For short term emergencies a well bucket is probably the cheapest option and will work at any depth.

http://www.lehmans.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=97&itemType=PRODUCT&iProduct ID=97

http://www.wisementrading.com/water/well_bucket.htm


~Martin :)

[mkay882]

WAX, thanks for the reply.
i found i know less than i knew i didn't know. lol
i'll be reading up!

[mkay882]

AlchemyAcres, thanks for answering!

i can honestly say i know not one answer to any of your questions.
going to start finding them though.

we live within a quarter mile from a creek, and when the well went down i was told i would probably never run out of water....and they didn't have to go very deep.

now what all that means, i have no idea.

we own 8 acres backed with about 5,000 acres, to the creek, of 16th section land.

looking to get prepared before the SHTF.

will be returning to this site for info. thanks for the links!

[mkay882]

i had a disappointing afternoon.

went to my local supermarket to stock up on can goods and nothing is dated "best used by" 2009! :o

huh?

i thought can goods had a shelf life of 10+ years.

[huntershaven]

As has been mentioned, there is a major difference between situations where you hold tight and when you evacuate. However, at least a few have no fall back position if they needed to get out of their bugout to position. I think even if you have a place to evacuate to, there needs to be a backup plan if that site becomes unlivable or untenable due to unforeseen circumstances. For that eventuality, it would seem to be a good idea to know where you could retreat to in the area surrounding your bugout site.

Also, even if you think you know how things would go in a certain situation, there is something to be said for being able to creatively find a solution if it doesn't happen like that.

And no matter how potent and prepared one is, there is always the possibility that one will face a threat or situation that could wipe them out. Discretion is the better part of knowing how to survive.

[TNDadx4]

i had a disappointing afternoon.

went to my local supermarket to stock up on can goods and nothing is dated "best used by" 2009! :o

huh?

i thought can goods had a shelf life of 10+ years.


I find this a lot, too. At least you can get maybe a years supply this way and rotate the cans.

[ol_hoot]

"Much better to drive in and park a small tent camper or rv inconspicuously off a lonesome logging road deep in your favorite deer hunting area, or whatever."

That's good advice.
I've got 1,300 acres that I lease for hunting.
It's mine year round to do with as I please.
I can't log it or nothing but I can build roads, camps, fish and hunt all I want and quietly set up a bug out location for me and mine.
It's got a big metal barn on it with a small apartment built in it that comes with the deal.
It don't have electricity but that means ain't nobody gonna follow the wires to me.
There's a big lake right in front of the house that has been stocked with perch, bass and catfish.
Woods is full of game.
I believe I could make my stand there and it's less than 10 miles from my driveway to the locked gate.

I'm not sure that the guy that owns it and built the building and lake didn't have it in mind for retreating to but he moved from the nearby big city to another, bigger city a ways off, he never comes around.
He's a rich doctor who evidently has more money than he knows what to do with.
and I got a key to his gate.

[TNDadx4]

"Much better to drive in and park a small tent camper or rv inconspicuously off a lonesome logging road deep in your favorite deer hunting area, or whatever."

That's good advice.
I've got 1,300 acres that I lease for hunting.
It's mine year round to do with as I please.
I can't log it or nothing but I can build roads, camps, fish and hunt all I want and quietly set up a bug out location for me and mine.
It's got a big metal barn on it with a small apartment built in it that comes with the deal.
It don't have electricity but that means ain't nobody gonna follow the wires to me.
There's a big lake right in front of the house that has been stocked with perch, bass and catfish.
Woods is full of game.
I believe I could make my stand there and it's less than 10 miles from my driveway to the locked gate.

I'm not sure that the guy that owns it and built the building and lake didn't have it in mind for retreating to but he moved from the nearby big city to another, bigger city a ways off, he never comes around.
He's a rich doctor who evidently has more money than he knows what to do with.
and I got a key to his gate.


That sounds absolutely wonderful! Congratulations! I'd love to find a place like that.

[RangerRick]

i had a disappointing afternoon.

went to my local supermarket to stock up on can goods and nothing is dated "best used by" 2009! *:o

huh?

i thought can goods had a shelf life of 10+ years.


Sorry, store bought canned foods have a shelf life of around a year as you can check by googling. Long term try Mountain House freeze dried products that will sit for upwards to 25+ years. Can goods are but a part of most long term plans.

Rick