Shrinking 20 lb Propane Btls

[NCLee]

Going the way of a pound of coffee or a pound of butter....?

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=816672&category=BUSINESS

Lee

[PaulNKS]

Lee,

If you notice, that is for the "exchange" bottles. If you own your own bottle and take it to be filled, they normally don't do that. When I was managing a co-op, we filled by pounds. We could only legally fill it either 80 or 85%. I can't remember now. When I left there in March 2007, we were charging $10.00 per 20lb bottle. Today, the same farmers coop is charging $12.00 and you stand there and watch them fill it. If I own my own tank, I'm sure as heck not going to do the exchange. Some of those bottles are old, been retrofitted, and repainted numerous times. So, I go to the co-op and know that I am getting my bottle back. They fill it while you stand there.

Dang, that sure didn't sound too well organized. It sounds like rambling! LOL

[DM]

Those bottle exchange places have been doing that for at least a couple years now. That's why i NEVER use them!

DM

[NCLee]

Most of our tanks are the standard refillable. Think we have 2 of the exchange tanks. One was "free" with our grill. The other, because we exchanged an outdated tank that couldn't be refilled (back when they'd accept them).

Evidently a lot of folks use those exchange tanks, based on the traffic I see where they're sold around here. That's why I posted the link, as a heads-up for those who may be using them.

BTW, around here Sam's Club usually has the best price on standard 20 lb, if anyone is interested. Where mobility isn't an issue, the 100 lb ones are a better investment. Last time I checked they were about $80 from Lowes.

Lee

[tomato204]

It is definately "buyer beware" everywhere you go now.

[kawalekm]

Weighing your tank before and after is definately a good idea. The last tank I had filled was by a teen-aged girl that barely knew where the tank was, let alone fill it. I could see propane squirting out around the valve stem and could tell by lifting it I didn't get the full 5 gallons the meter said was pumped. Since I didn't have any way to weigh the bottle, I didn't know how I would complain about it so I just shook my head and left. Chalk that one up to experience.
Michael

[PaulNKS]

Weighing your tank before and after is definately a good idea. The last tank I had filled was by a teen-aged girl that barely knew where the tank was, let alone fill it. I could see propane squirting out around the valve stem and could tell by lifting it I didn't get the full 5 gallons the meter said was pumped. Since I didn't have any way to weigh the bottle, I didn't know how I would complain about it so I just shook my head and left. Chalk that one up to experience.
Michael

Michael, in some states, if you require them to weight it, they must oblige.

[RueTheDay]

Going the way of a pound of coffee or a pound of butter....?


And the "gallon" of ice cream.

[cinok]

We fill our bottles at the coop and get more. But the 20lb ones are just for emergencies. We have 4 100 pd bottles that we use one is used for the stove and backup heater the other is hook to our BBQ grill (all you need to do is get a reg and a hose). then we have spares.

[Travis]

Weighing your tank before and after is definately a good idea. The last tank I had filled was by a teen-aged girl that barely knew where the tank was, let alone fill it. I could see propane squirting out around the valve stem and could tell by lifting it I didn't get the full 5 gallons the meter said was pumped. Since I didn't have any way to weigh the bottle, I didn't know how I would complain about it so I just shook my head and left. Chalk that one up to experience.
Michael



Great way to tell if a tank is full

1) Pour water down the side of the tank, the water will freeze where the propane is.

2) Under the valve is a screw/knob that bleeds out the air if you open it and a steady stream of propane comes out its full.

3) Get a clear tank:D http://store.uhaul.com/Propane__Grilling/Propane_tanks_and_heaters/Lite_Cylinder_Propane_Cylinders
spendy but cool

[NCLee]

Great way to tell if a tank is full

1) Pour water down the side of the tank, the water will freeze where the propane is.

2) Under the valve is a screw/knob that bleeds out the air if you open it and a steady stream of propane comes out its full.

3) Get a clear tank:D http://store.uhaul.com/Propane__Grilling/Propane_tanks_and_heaters/Lite_Cylinder_Propane_Cylinders
spendy but cool

What are they going to think of next? LOL

BTW, all I have to do is look out the back window, these COLD mornings to see the level of our big tank. Nice coat of frost indicates exactly where the propane level is in the tank. It was filled again yesterday. Ouch! But, guess I can't complain at $1.799 per gal based on some of the other numbers I've seen posted on various forums over the last few days.

Lee

[PaulNKS]

With a 20lb (5 gal) bottle, if you get 5 gallons, it's not only dangerous, but wrong. Propane bottles and tanks of any size can only be filled to 80% or 85% (depending on season and location. So, you'll never get 5 gallons of propane in a five gallon bottle.

Paul

[chrisser]

With a 20lb (5 gal) bottle, if you get 5 gallons, it's not only dangerous, but wrong. Propane bottles and tanks of any size can only be filled to 80% or 85% (depending on season and location. So, you'll never get 5 gallons of propane in a five gallon bottle.

Paul

The problem with filling up the bottles is that things expand when they get hot.

The new bottles have a better pressure relief system, but even when that works, the propane just vents to the atmosphere anyhow.

Most of the exchange places fill from a central location. The bottles may sit in the exchange places for months at a time.

So what happens when the bottle is filled in January and then it sits until August? The bottle is then overfilled and will likely vent out the extra propane or it is unsafe.

Also, consider that these tanks are used by RVs. Exchange a tank in NY in December and head to Disney World for Christmas break and you may see a 50+ degree (or more) difference in ambient temperature within a half a day. If that tank vents on the road or at a campsite where there's a source of ignition, it would really ruin someone's day.

The safest course of action is to pick a fill level where the tank will remain safe and within pressure specifications (plus the safety margin) no matter when it is purchased or where it is (reasonably) taken.

[snake]

This subject (propane) just came up on another forum I'm on. Seems a 20# tank should "fill" at 17#. The swap out places such as Blue Rhino were doing the 17 until the price of the gas went up. Now it seems they're doing 15# in a twenty. They do mark it as such.....In very SMALL print!.

[TNDadx4]

Very interesting. I guess everything is getting smaller in quantity.

It does make me glad that I get my refills at a local campground where I can see the scale before and after they fill it.

[NotSoFast]

Overall I prefer to have my bottle refilled rather than exchange it. That way I know what I am getting and it is always less expensive that way. What those people are paying for is the "convenience" of exchanging it.

[NCLee]

That's why we started buying new ones from Sam's Club (best price around here). Figured the refill savings would pay for the cylinders over time. Was aggravated when the "free" propane that came with our new grill turned out to be a cylinder of Blue Rhino. Local propane supplier can't refill them due to a design change of fill valve. (Done to prevent refilling them from what I understand.)

Lee

[cinok]

That's why we started buying new ones from Sam's Club (best price around here). Figured the refill savings would pay for the cylinders over time. Was aggravated when the "free" propane that came with our new grill turned out to be a cylinder of Blue Rhino. Local propane supplier can't refill them due to a design change of fill valve. (Done to prevent refilling them from what I understand.)

Lee


all 20lb tanks change the valve a few years ago. There should be not problem filling them. The newer tanks have thread on both the inside and external threads for the new setup. I believe the new valves are called OPD. The difference is that even with the tank open no propane will come out unless it has a back pressure from the regulator. I theory this is supposed to shut the gas off if the hose from the tank to the grill melts or breaks. Yes i have seen this happen. a 20# tank with a melted hose makes one heck of a flame thrower and will burn down a house if it is blowing in an open patio door.

[PaulNKS]

You can also have a new OPD valve put in an old bottle.

Paul

[DM]

I believe ALL tanks 40 pounds and under have to have the OPD valve. I see some places are now selling new tanks that are 45 pounders to beat that law!

I must have 12 or 15 of the old style tanks around yet!

DM

[PaulNKS]

I have 4 old ones. I converted one to an air bubble. Works great.

Paul

[NCLee]

Yes, I'm aware of the valve change to prevent over filling of the tanks. Have a few of the old style that a fellow will refill for me anyway. (Don't tell anybody, as he isn't supposed to do it.)

However, he can't refill those exchange cylinders. Don't know if this applies everywhere, but around here, propane suppliers can't refill them. I've tried several places. From what I understand, Blue Rhino and possibly others have made a design change in the fill valve, so the cylinders can't be filled by anyone other than Blue Rhino.

When I can't get the old style refilled anymore, I'll change out the valves, if it's cost effective. (Think the new tanks at Sam's are around $26-$28, now.) Wonder if I can do that on those blasted exchange cylinders, too? I wouldn't be surprised if they've also changed the tanks to prevent that, as well. Simple to do. Just change the thread size on the tanks when they changed the fill valve design. (Grumble, grumble.)

Uhmmm, I need to check to see what Tractor Supply has in stock now. If they have 45's in stock that may be the better route to go. I have an old 100 that has to have the valve changed when the tank is empty. A 45 will be easier to handle since I can't get the 100 refilled here. Must haul them in for filling.

Paul, "air bubble" is that equivalent to a portable air tank? Maybe that's what I should do with that old 100 pounder. Put it in line with my compressor for more air reserve to reduce wear on the compressor.

Lee

[PaulNKS]

Lee,

Yeah, the 20's make a nice portable air tank... no pump, just an "air bubble".

Blue Rhino and the others use the same type of OPD valve. There are no differences. No one is suppose to fill an exchange bottle. It's just like when someone "leases" a 500 gallon tank from company A. Company B isn't allowed to fill a tank owned by company A... but, if the homeowner buys the tank from company A, any other company can fill it.

With my experience at the co-op, I was a branch manager and had to be "up" on the regulations and all the safetly "stuff".

There are so many guidelines that it sometimes gets difficult to decipher how much is regulation based on law and how much is based on the insurance companies. The insurance companies have employees that make regular visits to their businesses to make certain they are in compliance with all safety and legal regulations.

Paul

[DM]

Around here the propane companys are changing their rules. It's getting so changing suppliers is harder, and costly... Also it's getting harder to get anyone to fill an "owner owned" big tank.

Many folks here turn their old small tanks into air tanks, it's pretty common. Some make sand blasters and other things out of them too...

DM

[Travis]

Lee,

Yeah, the 20's make a nice portable air tank... no pump, just an "air bubble".

Blue Rhino and the others use the same type of OPD valve. There are no differences. No one is suppose to fill an exchange bottle. It's just like when someone "leases" a 500 gallon tank from company A. Company B isn't allowed to fill a tank owned by company A... but, if the homeowner buys the tank from company A, any other company can fill it.

With my experience at the co-op, I was a branch manager and had to be "up" on the regulations and all the safetly "stuff".

There are so many guidelines that it sometimes gets difficult to decipher how much is regulation based on law and how much is based on the insurance companies. The insurance companies have employees that make regular visits to their businesses to make certain they are in compliance with all safety and legal regulations.

Paul



Heres my take on this crap. An exchange tank is a tank you bought and now own. I see it like buying say a reman carb for your truck. I gave you my old one and some money and you gave me a new part. I own the Rhino tank, it is my property to fill as I wish. Secondly if push came to shove I could remove the wrapper and paint it if I wanted to be sneaky. I pump propane at work and if the tank is within the 12 years of manafacturing or 5 years of recert. I will fill it no questions asked.

[PaulNKS]

Travis,

With exchange tanks, look at the info. You do NOT own that tank. According to the law, it doesn't matter if it is still within it's certification if it still has an old valve. If a propane "filler" notices an old valve, it is considered out of certification and must have a new valve installed.

Paul

[cinok]

The labels always fall of those dnag tanks when i find my self short and need to exchange at the local grogecy store. It is illegal to fill those old style tanks, I i remeber right it was the fire marshalls who pushed for the change.

[AlchemyAcres]

Here the "consumer" owns the tank and can get it filled where ever they want.

What sense would it make to bring in a compliant tank from another supplier or one purchased outright and exchange it for one that a particular exchange company says is theirs and only theirs...that ain't gonna fly.

As I understand it....Not all the Blue Rhino distributors use the Tri-Safe valve which has a ball bearing that prevents filling by others and apparently Blue Rhino corporate has backed off some on the Tri-Safe valve idea because of all the bitching.

With the larger contracted tanks it's a totally different story, the propane company definitely owns the tank.

By the way..... I have 3 old empty 20 lb. cylinders, one empty 20 lb. OPD cylinder and a big heavy duty 100 lb. cylinder, if anyone wants them you're welcome to them.
I don't use the stuff anymore.


~Martin

[cinok]

I have never seen a tri safe valve maybe it is a regional think? I know in certian areas of the country there are not propane dealers who fill tanks in abundance like there are in other parts. In many parts the use of propane is genarally used mainly for BBQ grills and not much else

[PaulNKS]

I, too am wondering if it's regional with Blue Rhino.

Here, we have a lot of propane distributors or retailers. In my location alone, I have about 5 to choose from.

[NCLee]

It may be a regional thing. I have one of those Blue Rhino tanks that can't physically be refilled by a local fellow who'll refill anything that's brought to him. Watched him try to refill it with no luck.

That's why I stay clear of those "exchange" tanks, now. Doesn't take long for a new one from Sam's Club ($26-$28) to pay for itself with the difference in the cost of propane.

Yes, it's getting expensive to switch propane suppliers. (Some of them anyway.) When we put in a gas pack, we switched suppliers. Service charge to pick up the old suppliers tank was $.50 per gallon of propane in the tank. Unfortunately we had a timing problem. Their 123 gal tank was at 75% full when they picked it up.

But.... They charged us $2.89 per gal. If we stayed with them, bulk rate would have been $2.09. New supplier's rate was $1.79 per gal. So we ended up saving $.60 per gal, after the pickup charge. And, we're saving $.30 per gal, if not more until March 31. BTW, the new company charged us for the pipe and fitting to hook up the tank. (No other service charge) And, their charge for pipe was a $1.00 per foot less than what our old company would have charged.

So, it does pay to shop around............

Thanks, Paul. I thought that was what you meant.

Martin, if I were close by, I'd sure take you up on that offer. :) Would love to have a spare 100 pounder for the gas stove in my shop. The others would come in handy, too.

Lee