Highway dept making me move signs

[Suzy]

Yesterday I got a letter in the mail from the Highway dept telling me that a "plow" sitting in my front yard with a "Fresh eggs for sale" sign on it was "Only" 23 feet from the highway and it must be at least 40 feet from the center line...As it was it was waaaay out in my front yard!

They also say I have to move the signs I've had tacked to the telephone pole in my front yard for the past THREE YEARS!

The telephone company has been out here several times and have said nothing about the little signs there because they use a bucket truck to climb and the signs are "no problem" to them.

I called the highway dept because I know the chief guy because of my years of reporting here and I asked him with all the money problems going on around the country, how did they spend money on having somebody come out and MEASURE how far these were from the roadway...

All the signs are small and none impair anyone's vision.

He hemmed and hawed around...

So I'm moving the signs. First of all, the little fresh egg sign is NOT on an old plow, it's an old SCRATCHER that my great-grandpa used farming this land 100 years ago....

I have 15 acres here but the house isfairly near the road....the signs are now in the MIDDLE of my front yard where they are hard to see....I will likely put some 4 x 4 posts in the ground and make a taller sign that is more visable and make sure it is the required 40 ft from the center line....

We live in an unincorporated area of a rural county. Gee. picky picky picky These were not a safety hazard....My daughter has been out of work for months and her unemployment has been denied twice....I wonder if she could go to work traveling around our country measuring signs....

[Anon001]

Suzy,

I certainly understand your frustration. I know in our state, signs are not allowed on the right of way. As long as the sign is past the right of way, it can be anywhere.

If it was me, I would make an "eggs" sign a lot larger with a light on it.

[vigilant20]

LOL I like Paul's idea.

So sorry they are giving you grief, can't imagine why a small sign on your own property would bother them.

[Grizzy]

Hey Suzy :)

I had a friend in NC who never had a problem with her signs to sell her papered Lab pups until she became a Kennel and was making some money for sure. Then, from the beginning as a business, it was one hassle after another. She encountered the "sign" thing too. I suggested that she make a few of the magnet signs for her lil car. It could be removed easily and travel all over town. She also used the name I suggested for the kennel on her license plate. I mean to tell yas, buddy, she got some real feedback...

"Eggs4You" could become a household name in your area :D .... I might just make my lil place the "Eggs4You" Farm and make a REAL nice sign over my mailbox and over the front porch and anywhere else I could "decorate" my property that could be seen from the road. I take it you're a legal citizen here, paying your taxes on YOUR property, right? :sarcastic:

In Texas we have a saying... "Cover the ground you stand on" I suppose so long as one is covering it... Ya might as well decorate it? ;)

(put'n in order fur some aigs...)

~Grizzy~

[flatwater]

It sounds to me they have nothing better to do with your tax dollars then to send a little twitt around checking on people. Or it could have been a niehbor with an ax to grind.

[Bones]

First I would make sure that is the law and if so okay then I would measure exactly 40 ft and put my sign there. Now why cant you have a name on your mailbox is there a size restriction to this? Right on the top of it I would have sign that says Eggs4Sale and then buy some magazines with that name for the subscription. If you can have your name on your mailbox why not your business name?

[wbo3]

I will offer a different perspective on this. I work for my State's DOT. I spent a little time working in the permit office a few years ago, and there is a valid reason why they would want you to move your signs, and anything else for that matter, off the right-of-way. Lawsuits. If there is ever a wreck, you can bet some scum-bag lawyer is going to be out there measuring and researching every square inch of the area around where the wreck occurred. If they find something, they are going after the people with the deepest pockets, the DOT. Line of sight, physical obstructions, they all play a part. If they are asking you to move something, it is most certainly because either they, or another department somewhere in the country, has been sued for it at one point in time or another. They are trying in vain to save tax-payer money from going to lawsuits. They can waste it better themselves.

[NCLee]

Sadly, wbo3 has a good point. Far too many people are looking for the "deep pockets".

I like the mail box idea. If you don't already have one, get one of the large rural mail boxes. Hang your sign below the box. With the large boxes, you can put up a pretty good sized sign. Around here a lot of folks hang those garden flags and signs, too, from theirs. Haven't heard of any complaints or problems with DOT or county officials.

Next, I'd measure from the center of the highway and put your great grandpa's scratcher 41' away from it.

Commentary -- When we moved out here to our place, the only requirement was that we had to have a septic tank permit. I understand that, and have no problem with it. That is until we had to get a second permit for the same tank when we moved out of our temporary mobile home. Guess the inspector had x-ray vision when he approved the second permit.

Anyway, over the years our RURAL county put in county wide zoning, using the regs from a nearby METRO county as the basis for theirs. The nearest town is extending their ETJ. Right now it's about a mile from my home. I'm sure when the town pulls in a nearby subdivison, it'll put us in the ETJ, too.

Recently, the town's code enforcement officer told a neighbor to remove an old truck he had sitting in his side yard. I won't repeat the language my neighbor used to tell the officer to get back on his side of the ETJ line.

In another instance, an older lady owned a house, in town, built in the late 1800's or early 1900's. She rented it out for a little extra income. Although a bit shabby, it was a beautiful (to me) old 2 story home. To make a long story short, she had to demolish it because she couldn't afford the COSMETIC changes that same officer demanded. With her permission I went into the house while it was being taken down. That house was structually sound! A fellow demolished it for her in exchange for those wonderful old-growth timbers, mantles, moldings, etc. Every time I think about that home, it's with both sadness and anger at the loss. She no longer has the income. A little more history has been lost. The lot is too small to build another dwelling. All because the front porch needed repair and the town wanted it to look "pretty".

I'd better close to let my blood pressure drop. Thank goodness we're grandfathered, for the time being, or we'd be tearing down buildings here, too.

Sorry to get on a rant.
Lee

[Catalpa]

If the scratcher was not in the right of way, I don't see what the problem was. Sounds like a petty government official with not enought real work to do.

I like the ideas for the mailbox sign. Good luck!

[TNDadx4]

Suzy,

I'm sorry to hear about all of the crap that you've been getting regarding your signs. I definately like the mailbox sign idea. I have another that may or may not work. You may have to do some research for your area. Around here, we have school bus stops where parents have erected a small roof on their land for a rain shelter (like a miniature loafing shed). Usually they have a few milk crates inside for the kids to sit on. If you or a neighbor has a bus stop on your property, I'm wondering if erecting one of these with a sign painted on the side might be a viable option.

Just a thought.

[Suzy]

Thanks for all the kind words.....

Yes, I know all about the laws and wrecks and all that but these were tiny signs with little aluminum pieces that stuck in the ground like a political sign....you could actually run over it with your body and not get hurt....And the old scratcher (what they called a "plow") blew over every time it rained so it was not a big obstacle either).

The mailbox idea is good eXCEPT our mailbox is on the SIDE road, not on the state road, so the through traffic that I need to see it don't use that road....

My farm does have a name: Old Field Farm and I have that on the back windshield of my truck along with my web site www.suzysfarm.com so that gives me a lot of publicity....wherever my truck goes....

A school bus-waiting shed would be illegal here close to the road as well and nobody around us has kids still in school on the state road anyway, but that was a good thought too!

I'm thinking of planting two 4 x 4 posts in the ground and having a "swinging sign" hanging on a crossbar between them....and maybe have a way to attach another sign near the bottom so that if "seasonal" things are in I could say things on it like "blackberry jelly here now," etc.

I'd probably have to RUN an extension cord to light it because even though husband is an electrician and so is son and son-in-law, I'm still WAITING for them to move the outlet for the egg refridge from one side of the carport to the other (it's only been out there four years.....still waiting....:)

Thanks again! And I still think the highway dept is wasting tax dollars!!!

[Teg]

I'd probably have to RUN an extension cord to light it because even though husband is an electrician and so is son and son-in-law, I'm still WAITING for them to move the outlet for the egg refridge from one side of the carport to the other (it's only been out there four years.....still waiting....:)

Thanks again! And I still think the highway dept is wasting tax dollars!!!

You could look into a couple of those solar garden lights at Lowes or Home Depot, they have the ones where you can aim the light, might be worth a try.

[momma_to_seven_chi]

Somebody had to turn you in. The Highway dept wouldn't have bothered you unless someone had complained. Do you have any Peta bunny huggers around you who think you are abusing chickens by selling their eggs? Or nasty nose-in-the-air neighbors who just don't like chickens?

[tufhelp]

Hi Suzy... I was noodling around about your sign problem and found this tidbit: There might be some money available from the state DOT for this inconvenience...

http://www.dot.state.al.us/NR/rdonlyres/7893C4B3-23CD-4F1F-85B0-34C1F2C1B7CB/0/OutdoorAdvertisingManual.pdf

[tufhelp]

I hate it when the weight of the gooberment is foisted upon the little guy... Bureaucrats are as tenacious as terriers when they think they have you by the short and curlies... Did they site the specific regulation(s) and authority for the location of the signage? I've looked around a bit and I can't find anything that specific, especially for small signs on private property. Everything seems to be geared towards big signage...

http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/coatoc.htm

Check:


Section 23-1-6 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-6.htm) Signs, markers, and advertising - On rights-of-way.
Section 23-1-7 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-7.htm) Signs, markers, and advertising - Tourist attractions.
Section 23-1-8 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-8.htm) Numbers and names of highways.
Section 23-1-8.1 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-8.1.htm) Expenditure of state funds for erection and maintenance of signs designating roads, bridges, etc., in honor or memory of individuals



Division 3 Outdoor Advertising.

Section 23-1-270 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-270.htm) Short title.
Section 23-1-271 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-271.htm) Definitions.
Section 23-1-272 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-272.htm) Declaration of policy.
Section 23-1-273 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-273.htm) Erection or maintenance of signs - Prohibited in adjacent areas; exceptions.
Section 23-1-274 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-274.htm) Erection or maintenance of signs - Controls; criteria.
Section 23-1-275 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-275.htm) Erection or maintenance of signs - Permits; identification tags or decals.
Section 23-1-276 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-276.htm) Erection or maintenance of signs - Name and address of owner and date of erection to appear on signs, etc.
Section 23-1-277 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-277.htm) Erection or maintenance of signs - Exceptions to Sections 23-1-275 and 23-1-276.
Section 23-1-278 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-278.htm) Enforcement of division generally.
Section 23-1-279 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-279.htm) Nonconforming signs - Removal and payment of compensation generally.
Section 23-1-280 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-280.htm) Nonconforming signs - Just compensation to be paid upon removal of signs.
Section 23-1-281 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-281.htm) Nonconforming signs - Just compensation - For what paid.
Section 23-1-282 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-282.htm) Nonconforming signs - Just compensation - To whom paid; agreements; civil actions.
Section 23-1-283 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-283.htm) Nonconforming signs - Just compensation - Sufficient federal funds required.
Section 23-1-284 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-284.htm) Agreement with United States Secretary of Transportation.
Section 23-1-285 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-285.htm) Director authorized to accept federal funds.
Section 23-1-286 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-286.htm) Rules and regulations.
Section 23-1-287 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-287.htm) Disposition of fees.
Section 23-1-288 (http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-288.htm) Penalty for violation of division, etc.

[MooseToo]

If there is ever a wreck, you can bet some scum-bag lawyer is going to be out there measuring and researching every square inch of the area around where the wreck occurred.

really quite startling to think about how many totally diffferent aspects of normal every-day living are seriously and negatively impacted by greedy lawyers -
but, we need to remember that the ojt they receive this way sets a firm foundation when they go on to judgeships or elected office -

[wbo3]

really quite startling to think about how many totally diffferent aspects of normal every-day living are seriously and negatively impacted by greedy lawyers -
but, we need to remember that the ojt they receive this way sets a firm foundation when they go on to judgeships or elected office -

It really is startling. I am a construction inspector. My job is literally to stand there and monitor contractor activity for compliance with engineering regulations. I am not permitted to even TOUCH contractor equipment, because if something goes wrong, even the contractors sue the State. Most of my job consists of watching and documenting for future lawsuits. It is even worse in the permit office, which is the governing body in question. It really is sad, but even a rather smallish sign, can be used as a basis for a suit. All a lawyer needs is a sympathetic jury, and the State is out of a million tax-payer dollars, regardless of the merits of the case. I know how frustrating it is for property owners when they have to deal with us, but there are legitimate reasons why we do most of the things we do. I guess I should thank the lawyers, without them I probably wouldn't have a job with the state. But, as a taxpayer, there are a lot of wastes that could be avoided.

[maineyankee]

Have an extra vehicle ?

Put the signs on the INSIDE of the car's windows, park it at the end of the driveway when you're 'open'. Pull the car when 'closed'.

[Suzy]

If vehicles are parked on or near the right of way, they can have them towed!!!! I've got to go move the rest of the signs tomorrow or Friday because it will be three weeks tomorrow and they gave me four weeks. :)

[Bones]

Susy did you read the law in the above post for signs. Sounds like you can do it based on this part of the law in the exceptions part. Dont give in just because they said so.

4) Signs advertising activities conducted on the property on which they are located. For the purposes of this subdivision, the promotion of activities at other locations or the dissemination of information about activities conducted upon other property shall not be considered activities conducted on the property on which a sign is located.


http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/23-1-273.htm

[Anon001]

Suzy,

I got to thinking about things.

Yesterday I got a letter in the mail from the Highway dept telling me that a "plow" sitting in my front yard with a "Fresh eggs for sale" sign on it was "Only" 23 feet from the highway and it must be at least 40 feet from the center line...As it was it was waaaay out in my front yard!

Is it 23 feet from the edge of the highway or from the center" If it has to be 40 feet from the center line and was only 23 feet from the edge of the highway, you may not have to move it very far.

If the plow and signs are OFF the right-of-way, I don't think they can do anything. Many "jurisdictions" make a differentiation between permanent and non permanent "equipment". For example if I put a portable shed on my place they can't say anything about how close it is to the right of way.... BUT, if I go to build a permanent shed, then it has to be 50 feet from the right-of-way line. I think you could argue that with your plow. lol

I will likely put some 4 x 4 posts in the ground and make a taller sign that is more visable and make sure it is the required 40 ft from the center line....Forty feet from the CENTER line is not very far. It should still be easily visible.
We live in an unincorporated area of a rural county.

If vehicles are parked on or near the right of way, they can have them towed!!!! I've got to go move the rest of the signs tomorrow or Friday because it will be three weeks tomorrow and they gave me four weeks. :)

How can they be towed if they are "near" the right of way but on your property in an unincorporated area?

I think I would ask for a copy of the statute before removing the signs. I would call and tell them that you refuse to move the signs until you see a statute with the required regulations.

I would fight.

[Suzy]

thank you. I am studying that particular section.....we've also found numerous other places and businesses that have HUGE signs that are on the right of way where the highway dept has said nothing...

[Anon001]

I figured you'd find that big businesses do that and get away with it. Check the "county" or "state" whichever your road falls under. If it is county there are regulations that prohibit "arbitrary" decisions many times. If that is the case with this, then I would just tell them that they are in violation by making you move your signs and applying the regulation "arbitrarily". Sometimes that works well on a county level... or some counties and states also have the right to grant .....dang... can't think of the word, but similar to a waiver. Check with them on that.

I like a good fight when it comes to county and state and I wouldn't take it if they don't apply the same rules to everyone. I'd fight 'em tooth an' nail.

[silvergramma]

Signs Signs everywhere is signs,, breaking up the scenery ........do this dont do that.. cant ya read the signs...

[cinok]

Signs Signs everywhere is signs,, breaking up the scenery ........do this dont do that.. cant ya read the signs...


Going to rename you to rockingramma :D:D

[MooseToo]

Signs Signs everywhere is signs,, breaking up the scenery ........do this dont do that.. cant ya read the signs...

burma shave -

[NotSoFast]

40 ft 1 inch from the edge of the center stripe so they can't say a word. Don't leave them anything they can use against you. :D

[Roots_Farm]

So this is for safety? Are they cutting down any tree that is within the 40' zone. If not, plant a fast growing poplar and in a few years put a sign on a limb.

One thing I love about my county is they leave me the heck alone. They tried to pass a zoning law once last year. It got quite hostile. More than one farmer let it be known that if they tried to tell them what to do on their own property they would have a war on their hands. It failed miserably.

[mtwildflower]

I will offer a different perspective on this. I work for my State's DOT. I spent a little time working in the permit office a few years ago, and there is a valid reason why they would want you to move your signs, and anything else for that matter, off the right-of-way. Lawsuits. If there is ever a wreck, you can bet some scum-bag lawyer is going to be out there measuring and researching every square inch of the area around where the wreck occurred. If they find something, they are going after the people with the deepest pockets, the DOT. Line of sight, physical obstructions, they all play a part. If they are asking you to move something, it is most certainly because either they, or another department somewhere in the country, has been sued for it at one point in time or another. They are trying in vain to save tax-payer money from going to lawsuits. They can waste it better themselves.

Having worked for a personal injury attorney specializing in car accidents, this is not true.

Down and dirty, it's between the insurance companies of those involved. Most are settled out of court. In fact, I can count on one hand the number of times my boss actually filed suit and all were to preserve the statue of limitations and not because we were determined to go to trial. The DOT is not going to get sued by anyone in an accident because someone has their Eggs4You sign 32 feet away from the center line rather than 40. Will the homeowner? Possibly, but not the DOT.

[mtwildflower]

Somebody had to turn you in. The Highway dept wouldn't have bothered you unless someone had complained. Do you have any Peta bunny huggers around you who think you are abusing chickens by selling their eggs? Or nasty nose-in-the-air neighbors who just don't like chickens?

I call 'em Leaf Lickers.....

[mtwildflower]

really quite startling to think about how many totally diffferent aspects of normal every-day living are seriously and negatively impacted by greedy lawyers -
but, we need to remember that the ojt they receive this way sets a firm foundation when they go on to judgeships or elected office -

You know something, if you have a grievance with the way laws are enforced, then you need to address that as being the fault of legislators and town councils and county commisioners who make the ordinaces and laws and rules. While lots of people in those ELECTED positions might be attorneys, bad law generally comes from people who don't know squat about the law or the problems poorly written ones can cause.

Most attorneys are not greedy corporate ones who get millions of dollars in bogus anti-trust and tort law. Most are like the rest of us, just trying to make a living and as small business, provide jobs for some other people. It might help to keep that in mind and remember that the ones who win, are generally the ones who play by the rules and use the law, ordinances and rules as they are written by other people.

[Suzy]

I gave up and moved the signs....they went all up and down our small highway making folks move all sorts of things....

One widow has had one of those carport things that you buy for $600 or $700 and it's metal and just on legs....she's had it for about 10 years....they made her turn it SIDEWAYS because they said it was about two feet on the right of way! The funny thing is, her front yard is enclosed with chain link fence and has been for the past 45 years....the chain link fence is closer to the road than the carport was but that didn't do anything about it...

Right now I have my temporary signs stuck in my bright yellow garden wagon and that's working pretty good....

I still think the government is too intrusive but I have so many things going on in my life now that I have to "pick my fights" and right now I don't have the energy or money to fight this any further.

[backlash]

Hi Suzy

Thought you would be interested in this news item.
Seems like DOT is the same all over.
backlash

http://www.nwcn.com/news/WSDOT-says-bahumbug-to-Christmas-lights-78942702.html