Socialist Engineering that Worked- East Bloc guns

[essayons4791]

It's been awhile since I wrote, and my duty schedule has given me some time off while waiting to go home- so I figured I'd talk some about the benefits of East bloc firearms, and how they could be an important part of the cost-conscious firearms consumer (you).

One of my professions requires me to use and live with firearms. Most people never really do that 24/7, and so have little appreciation for the consequences of poor maintenance, less-than-foolproof human engineering, etc. So most people, in my opinion, never really gain an appreciation for the firearm for what it really is- a tool that must not fail- because when it does you could end up dead or hungry.

Folks like to make the assumption that Soldiers in combat would care for their weapon like their lives depended on it. Well, the smart ones do. However, not everyone is smart, mechanically inclined, or properly trained and motivated. The Russians knew this, and they also knew that most of their soldiers were illiterate. So what did they do? Did they set up elaborate training plans, educate their soldiers or create a huge, convoluted logistics system?

They did not- the New Soviet Man had no need for such Western decadence. Instead, they did their level best to make their guns reliable and simple to use. And for the most part, they succeeded. Not only were their primary weapons very reliable, but they were reasonably accurate and hard-hitting, too. And the Russians and their clients liked wars and were quick to silence any dissent, so they needed lots of guns for the workers and peasants.

You may ask- what is the point of Soviet history, and how does it benefit me? Very simple. Because of past Russian policies and history, we have available to us today literally millions of these weapons, and enough ammo to fight WWIII. Because that's what they were made for.

The AK-47 and variants are a prime example. Over 100 million have been produced, no one is exactly sure what the number is. The AK, an 8 pound amalgamation of stamped steel and plywood, will shoot a human sized target with no problems at 400 meters, function with zero maintenance, and last a lot longer than it's user. You can own one for your very own for five hundred bucks. If the political craziness will ever subside, they'll be back down to 295 brand new. If I was stranded on a hostile alien planet, I would want an AK. Yes, it is ugly. Yes, it is heavy. Yes, the sights are not exactly National Match quality.

SO WHAT? It works every time. Things it hits stay down. Your eight year old could successfully engage Zombie hordes with it. I have personally seen kids younger than that carrying and using them. If it works for an Afghan peasant or a Somali wacked out on Khat, it will work for you.

In fact, most of the criticism of East Bloc guns boil down to those three considerations- They ARE ugly, they ARE heavy, and the sights ARE crappy. However, I respectfully submit that those are tertiary concerns. And the funny part of it is that the Russians meant it to be that way- seriously. Elegance, delicacy and extreme precision were all seen to be sentimental Capitalist flaws under the philosophy of the Bolsheviks, and so consciously or unconsciously the weapons were designed to be no-frills simple and tough. The guns killed two birds with one stone- not only did they help make a peasant with one week of Basic into a somewhat effective soldier, but they also made a statement of Socialist superiority out of the barrel of a gun.

If you actually need to use the firearm, you will not care about its looks. If you have to walk a long way carrying it, every gun seems to weigh a ton. If you are frightened and it is dark and you are half awake, the crude sights are actually pretty decent for the quality of shooting you will do.
In the hunting scenario, the sights are decent for snap shots at close to medium ranges, and are generally very good for low light conditions. I've taken a couple of deer with a Nagant M38- both went down like sacks of potatoes.

I recommend almost all of the Russian guns without reservation- The Nagant Series are excellent (and darn accurate), the SKS is great and not as "evil looking" as the AK, and the AK is, well, the premier combat weapon of the 20th century. Until they invent death rays, the AK will soldier on here on Mother Earth.

It's your choice, but please do consider a commie gun. It's the only piece of Socialist policy that ever worked, and it is suprememly ironic to use them to exercise out Second Amendment rights.

The AK47 looks a lot better in Capitalist hands. Get one today.

[gunsmoke]

Whenever anyone asks me about the AK I tell them to never forget one thing, it was designed by a russian tank mechanic. So its designed like, is heavy like shoots like and works like a Russian tank.

Elite Firearms in TX makes a milled Galil 5.56 size lower receiver and imports Galil 5.56 parts kits. They build a fine Galil clone in 7.62x39, 5.45x39, and 5.56x45mm and will build an RPK clone with a Milled Galil receiver.

It is definitely on the expensive side but then especially with any fine tool, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

[hunter63]

So, what is this a advertisement or political commentary?

Granted they are fun to play with, my only problem with the "commie guns" is that they all look like they were made with a ax and a hammer...............

[gunsmoke]

Well I would not call them refined but the com block AKs are a combat proven design based purely on reliability. If you insist on western style refinement along with the same reliable design there are always the Finnish Valmets and the Israeli Galil.

Many people coplain about accuracy.

Its mostly the ammo. If you have a milled receiver or the Chinese style 1.6mm stamped receiver, try good ammo, FEDERAL, LAPUA, PMC, FIOCCHI, WINCHESTER, REMINGTON, COR BON. You'll find accuracy comparable to a stock AR, If you want to shoot the cheap Russian ammo well you get what you pay for which is 4 to 6 MOA in a good solid rifle.

Using a Valmet, Galil, or Chinese milled like the POLYTECH LEGEND and FIOCCHI ammo you're going to get the same accuracy as a box stock AR.

The next easiest thing that helps AK accuracy is to replace the recoil spring and guide with a Bulgarian or Soviet RPK double telescoping solid tube guide and U S Manufactured Chrome Silicon Springs and a synthetic bolt buffer, you'll be surprised how this tightens up the action and quiets it down eliminates most of the bolt carrier chatter, rattle and wobble. The Valmet and Galil come with the RPK style guide rod and chrome silicon springs.but can benefit from the bolt buffer.

It will also greatly reduce wear and provide outstanding long-term ease of maintenance and durability especially if you are going to handload your own ammo and are going to the heavier 150 gr bullets which I do.

My favorite load is Lapua Case CCI LR MIL SPEC PRIMER 27.5 grs of VVN130 and a Hornady 150 gr BTSP. This is a very warm load and if you load for your own AK you should start at 24 grs and work up slowly. Its fine in my Valmets, Galils and Legends and consistently delivers 1/2 moa @ 100 meters from a rest or 2 moa off-hand. Ballistically it is the equiv. of the .30-30 150 gr factory loads.

To answer your question I don't think it is either a sales promotion (I AM NOT A FIREARMS DEALER OR MANUFACTURER) iTS NOT A POLITICAL STATEMENT the comblock is history yesterdays news, for me it is just a commentary on another tool that happens to be the 2nd most prolific Battle Rifle in the history of the world.

[essayons4791]

Quite right, Gunsmoke, it's neither a sales ad or politics. I'm just another guy who figured I'd add my two cents to the whole "which gun is best for me on a budget" theme. The com block stuff, if you don't have a lot of jack to spread around, gets the most bang for the buck. Literally.

And you do get what you pay for. I just say that the russian stuff is the best for someone who might be tight on cash and needs to get basic firearms. That's all.

Sometimes folks who don't have a lot of cash or don't know much about guns tend to get lost in the weeds with what is "best". I say concentrate on functionality and price. Once you get more experience or money, you can move on if you wish to.

[hunter63]

Quite right, Gunsmoke, it's neither a sales ad or politics. I'm just another guy who figured I'd add my two cents to the whole "which gun is best for me on a budget" theme. The com block stuff, if you don't have a lot of jack to spread around, gets the most bang for the buck. Literally.

And you do get what you pay for. I just say that the russian stuff is the best for someone who might be tight on cash and needs to get basic firearms. That's all.

Sometimes folks who don't have a lot of cash or don't know much about guns tend to get lost in the weeds with what is "best". I say concentrate on functionality and price. Once you get more experience or money, you can move on if you wish to.

I have to agree with that, but the prices are going up on these also, as well as ammo.
Nagant 91/30, $129 bucks at Gander Mountain, when they have them, last fall $69 bucks.

I have a few of them, and they shoot just fine, but the way the thread was first worded, was just wondering where it was going, thats all.
I'll shut up now...........

[Pitdog]

The cheap ammo ain't cheap no more. 5.56 and 7.62x36 are same basic price for cheap stuff.

[gunsmoke]

I don't know if many of you folks ar familiar with a Utah gunsmoth by the name of Parker O. Ackley.

P. O. Ackley was the foremost internal ballistician of the 20th century, a prolific writer gunsmith and designer of cartridges. He passed on in the 1970s I think he still has an understudy of his by the name of Bullberry ~ BULBERRY BARRELWORKS somewhere in Utah.

P. O. Ackley built my first custom Rifle a WWI vintage M98 Mauser in .358 Norma Magnum for me it is one of my prized posessions.

Any way Ackley at one time conducted a study to determine the strehgth of bol t action Rifle Actions. He blew up quite a few guns. You might be surprised to learn that the strongest bolt action he found was the Japanese Arisaka try as he might he never blew one up, the only others that failed to blow were the 98 Mauser and the Ruger 77 all he was able to do with them was melt brass.

Now aesthetics is a very personal thing and there is nothing elegant or refined about any of the Arisakas but they work and last forever.

It all depends on what you want and what tou can afford. My primary working Rifles are 3 FN FALS all Belgian G Receivers and a Galil ARM.

My backups are two Polytech Legends AKs one fixed one under folder, with good ammo they shoot right up there with the AR platform. The good AKs are alot heavier than they appear by thier size. FWIW whenever the U.S buys AKs for supply to SOT, CIA operators or for allies we buy NOTHING but Chinese they are the finest quality in production today.

Of course civilians cannot import or purchase Chinese rifles since the Clinton Exec order banning their import went into effect.

[essayons4791]

Gunsmoke,

Well, I guess if there is a political message in my posting, it would be that it's funny that weapons developed by authoritarian regimes are now being used in vast numbers by people who are opposed to that worldview. And as to the political mindset that was behind Soviet weapons development- well, it facilitated the deliberate development of cheap, tough weapons. Such a philosophy did exist, and Russian small arms design was influenced by that mindset.
It just so happens that governments should be careful when they develop weapons for the "workers and peasants"- who says that the "workers and peasants" will toe the party line? And the guns work for either side of the political divide.

But the primary emphasis of the piece is just the reliability and affordability of the guns. As to their rising price- well, I guess everything that shoots is going up, from what I see on the internet. I haven't been home for a year.

Gotta agree about the relative quality of AK's- I've seen a lot of them, and the Chinese ones are nice. So are the E. German ones. But they all work- it's just a matter of fit and finish, etc. I dunno, Yugo ones with the RPK trunnions are pretty hefty, too. It's all in what you want to pay.

Like I say in all my postings- there are lots of excellent weapons that will do the job. But for me and my house, the AK series works well.

[gunsmoke]

OH I AGREE!

Nothing happens in isolation everything influences everything to SOME DEGREE.

So you have to look to the CONTEXT of history in which the AK was designed.

In WWII the Russians KNEW they were not capable of building enough tanks superior to the German Tanks (The U S did too and pursued the same strategy as the Russians just to a different degree)

So the Russians decided to field 25 inferior tanks to every 1 superior German Tank and in Armor v Armor engagements accept a 50% attrition rate. I don't care how superior your armor is and how powerful your 8.8cm main gun is, if you engage and destroy one enemy tank and you have 24 ithers shooting at you, you're going to LOSE and they did.

Now Kalishnikov was a Tank Mechanic who eventually rose to the rank of Sgt. and Tank Commander. He was wounded when his tank was destroyed by an opposing German Tank.

He had seen the infantry he was supporting as a Tank Commander confront German soldiers armed withwith the Sturmgewher (the GENUS of the "ASSAULT RIFLE") It was a compromise between the main battle rifles the Moison Nagant and the M98 Mauser and the Ppsh41 and Schmeisser MP40 of the chock troops.

It was intermediate range (effective 300 meters) far beyond the effective range of the submachine guns and far shorter than the effective yet matching the PRACTICAL range of the Main Battle Rifles.

So while recuperating from his injuries Kalishnikov started musing and drawing and designing. What resulted was probably the most RELIABLE automatic battle rifle in history. (I know purists will dispute my use of the term "BATTLE RIFLE" for the AK but I am referring to the way it was employed as opposed to the way it was designed. The M16 is no "BATTLE RIF;E" but it has been employed as the U S MBR since 1965)

But it was built like a Russian Tank, lots of heavy steel, lots of machining operations, and as the "STATE OF THE ART PROGRESSED" lessons learned earlier in the manufacture of the Ppsh41, the MP38 and the U S M3 "GREASE GUN" and of course the STURMGEWEHR so they went to the stamped receiver of the AKM to save money and speed production reduce weight etc etc.

I'm old schoo;, I don't own a single PLASTIC PISTOL or a single STAMPED RECEIVER, but that is my choice.

I appreciate your point about the irony of the whole situation from your original post. The U S is no doubt the largest market for the PRIVATE ownership by CAPITALISTS of the AK in history. And in particular for the Russian manufactured AKs of today the SAIGA is manufactured for the U S market since Clinton banned the import of Chinese AKs and ammo magazines parts etc.

HAHAHAHAHA!

I LOVE irony.

[Pitdog]

Ackley did a LOT of interesting and great work, and I am a BIG fan of many of his cartridge conversions, I have a lot of AI Reamers that I use, and with great popularity and success. The worst part about the Arisaka action is the safety and utilizing a scope, however I am working on that in my limited spare time, I have two actions laying around that deserve good treatment. The second drawback is the length of the action negates many cartridges despite it's ability to withstand the pressures, a .30 06 loaded with a 150 grain bullet is too long to push up without modification. That is too bad too because as a fan of the Whelen, I like also the .358 Norma and would love to put one on the Arisaka, alas it is too long.
The Ploy AK legend stuff is top notch as far as all things considered and they do shoot wonderfully with decent ammo. I have always liked the AK series of rifles, and will always like them, however giving too much credit to the Soviets for the design is a little off target, as really all the Russian did was cheapen the German's design and make it sloppy. The original AK was designed on paper without sights, and the buttstock people always complain about being too short was actually never mean to be shouldered. It was made to be trapped between the arm and the torso and fired from the hip as the masses of soldiers advanced. Accuracy is always talked about too as being rediculous, when actually it shoots exactly the way it was designed too. It would be a LONG post to go into details, but basically the point was, thyy under combat stress, with poor marksmanship, the barrel firing a 3 shot group of 6 or 8 inches in a triangular patter made more hits on a human sized target at one to three hundred meters than a rifle that fired the round close to the same place every time. Infact combat hits went to like seventy percent when the barrels were sloppier than normal, because one of a three round group was more likely to inflict a combat casualty, wether lethal or not.
Crazy but true!

[essayons4791]

Yeah, I appreciate the irony of it too. The AK has became the true "freedom fighter's" weapon, and not quite in the way it was originally intended. Kalashnikov was a genious.

I've been stuck with the M16 series since 1991, and I've seen all matter of grief with it. I stay on top of mine, and make sure my Soldiers do the same. But not everyone does. It works well when well maintained. If you slip on the maintenance... well, then you better get an AK.

Just out of curiousity, why the dislike for stamped receivers? I've never had any grief with them, and from what I've seen, there is no practical difference in their reliability/durability.

[essayons4791]

Pitdog,

While the thread has morphed into a bit of a treatise on the AK, I was getting at the toughness and reliability of East Bloc guns in general. The Mosin/Tokarev/Simonov/Kalashnikov small arms all share similar design traits- durability, toughness, reliability, "good enough" accuracy, and hard hitting power.

Also, while the AK and MP44 look somewhat similar (and Kalashnikov took design cues from it), their method of operation is significantly different. The AK has more in common with the Garand then the MP44.

And I agree with you very much, the AK is "accurate enough", although not as sloppy as some say. Get good ammo and concentrate on your fundamentals, and it's just fine.

[gunsmoke]

I don't know what kind of experience you have with the CETME/G3 series of weapons (HK91) I owned a pair of HK41s when they were first imported and the flexing that occured in rapid semi-suto fire and the resulting inaccuracy, and flexing to the point of less than 100% reliability was an instant and permanent turn-off. The only other experience that I have had was with a friends AR-18. Which was a Sterling made example and was sloppy, inaccurate and 80% unreliable.

As far as the AK is concerned if you are in the military you have probably been exposed mosrtly to the 1.6mm stamped receiver guns that the U S buys for Spec Ops and for allies like Iraqi and Afgani military/police. In those guns there is no practical difference. But some of the E BLOC countries manufactured AKMs with 1.0mm thick stock. I saw lots of these in Southern Africa in the 1970s they were notoriously short-lived but they were built to be maybe 5000 rd guns and then thrown away. The underfolders less so maybe a peactical limit of 3000 rds byt that time there was so much flexion between the folding stock and the receiver that you were much better off leaving the stok folded and not trying to stabilize the rifle at all.

The Hungarin and Bulgarian and E German side folders are a little bit better in this respect. I think I'm not sure but I think the Hungarians always used the SOVIET/CHICOM std 1.6mm stock for making their receivers. The Hungarian PG ended up being copied by HK for their plastic lower, for the Valmet and the Galil, it is also my favorite AK pistol grip. I have an custom FAL (Izzy carbine config.) in .358 Win with Brazillian Rosewood furniture, any way when I had it built I had the PG copied from a Galil I love the feel of that grip it is just the right size and shape for me. I have Galil PGs on both my Polytech Legends. I wish someone would make a synthetic copy of it for the FAL.

[Pitdog]

Well, yes COM BLOC guns are as you say, for the most part perfectly well made FOR the intended purpose, which is to run as long and hard as they can and perform as well as good citizen should expect it too. The AK is just the first rifle everyone thinks of, second of course is the Mosin Nagant. The Nagant is trumped in cheap ONLY by the late war Arisakas of WW2, and the French Mas, which didn't have a safety, and the locking lugs were in the rear.
The exception to the rule here is the Tokarev Rifle, which was a fantastic rifle, shot well, and was probably the BEST example of a POS that was made well. BUT, because the tolerances were tighter, and the design more complicated, well, it suffered in the hands of Soviet soldiers who were not well equipped or trained to service their weapons properly. The doctrine was for them to die for the glory of their nation BEFORE the need arose to service the weapon, and they abandon the TOK in large quantities as they retreated from the Germans. NOW, as the Germans advanced and were suffering slow resupply, they picked up the rifles, diagnosed the problem, cleaned them and used them against their foes with great success.
The ROUND the Commies developed that was better than any other was the little known 7.62x45 that came in 2 rifles, the VZ 24 and the VZ??????? working from memory here, and had a beer. It is a fantastic round and should have been standardized more widely.
As far as the AK vs the Garand? Gas operation is about the only thing the two share in common. The MP 43 and 44 are certainly different in several avenues, but Kalishnikov used captured German prints and documents to work off of, even the 8 Kurz round was bastardized into the 7.62x39.
Lot of good info with this one though, kudos for bringing it up, I don't find many people I can talk COM BLOC with, most people are TOO patriotic LOL.

[gunsmoke]

BTW I have no problems with the AR system, as far as the M16 is concerned there are only two things that I think could make it better and that is a piston and chambered in 6.5 Grendel.

Of course as we now know if you use a piston system in an AR you've GOT to have a one-piece bolt carrier the screwed and staked two piece of the direct impingment system simply does not have what it takes durability wise.

As first encountered by the U S military the 5.56 round was perfect for the original intent. Gen. Curtis LeMay saw it shot it and said Hot damn this is just what we need to protect the SAC bases!

The CIA ops peeps saw it and said Hot damn this is just what we need for spec ops and for arming poorly trained indigenous SOBs (our SOBs of course!)

Then Robert MacNamara boy genius that he was saw it and siad Hot damn this is Viet Nam!

The rest they say is history. Very early on when Cadillac was building the Stoner Weapons System for the SEALs they figured out they needed a heavier bullet for better penetration and used a different loading of a 70 gr. Secant Ogive bullet as early as 1968.

But the US continues to try, unspite of all the evidence to the contrary to put lispstick on a pig with clinging to the 5.56.

In 6.5 a 129 gr. bullet with a secant ogive (the Hornady SST) has the same BC as a Lapua 144 Secnar but because it is lighter you can get a good flat shooting velocity with it at lower pressures and temperatures than with the 144 Secnar.

The now-admittedly-failed experiment with the 6.8mm was just more lipstick on the pig.

With a high BC 129 gr bullet the trajectory of the 6.5 Grendel closely marches that of the 7.62mm M118 sniper and out to 600 meters matches its penetration if not quite energy levels. It would be a big step up from the 5.56 in terminal ballistics with minimal changes to the hardware. Change the bolt the barrel and mag follower and you are done and you only lose 5 rd capacity in the 30 rd mag body. As you cycle in new mags you could up the capacity to wherever you wanted. 42 rds would give you 14 3rd bursts with a mag shorter than the Galil 5.56 55 rounder.

[essayons4791]

Pitdog, Gunsmoke,

I've seen G3's being carried around a lot, and I know they have a great rep. It's just not something I've dealt with a lot (A Turk carrying one almost shot me once), and the quantities are not available in the states at anywhere near the scale of the AK rifles. They seem to be a good choice if you luck onto one, but I don't have the personal experience with them, so I can't personally vouch for them. I can do that with the AK- I've encountered and handled nearly all varieties, and for the most part I am impressed.

For the most part. Some are junk. The underfolders I'm not too keen on, and some of the Egyptian/Iraqi variants are not exactly great, or were "hajified" to such an extent to be rendered almost useless. Even still, as clapped out and abused as those POS guns were, they STILL WORKED.

And indeed, the M16 series is much better when a gas piston is added to it, taking away the gas-impingment system. (EX: the HK version of the M16) But it is a different weapon when you do that, you are no longer talking about the M16. The M16 craps where it eats, carbon fouling and tight tolerances will always be its nemesis. Same for the cartridge. The true M16 uses the 5.56. Change the caliber, and once again we are talking about a different weapon. My criticism is about the standard-issue M16/M4 family, the one every Joe carries.

And the AK has more in common with the Garand then you think. When he was designing the AK, Kalashnikov also had access to Garands via the Lend Lease program, and he took deliberate cues from the Garand's rotating bolt (which was incorporated in the AK in simplified form) and the trigger system as well (which is also used in the M16- the best part of that rifle). The general layout of the AK strongly suggests MP44 influences (although Kalashnikov denies that, but hey, the guns look suspisciously similar), but the operating system is more akin to the much loved and reliable M1, albiet in heavily derived form.

And I'd love to have an SVT-40. But I haven't had the luck to score one yet. It's on my list. The Wehrmacht loved them for good reason.

[Pitdog]

The Grendel is the next step in the evolution of the AR platform, no doubt about it. It is what has so far kept the AR platform going forth, the 6.8 is the perfect solution to a problem that never even existed. Coincidentally the Remington has dropped it in everything but their silly ACR and is only doing 1 run of Gen 2 ammo once a year. As well the 6.8 is DOA to the DOD and is NOT even a remote consideration anymore.
The 129 is a fantastic hunting bullet, er the SST in 129 and performs famously fon deer type game. Most folks complain of accuracy in the Grendel with the SST, because it is just on the top edge of weight in barrels rifled 1 n 9. It handles it perfectly well, but groups tend to suffer a tiny bit compared to accuracy loads with Lapua bullets and of course the Bergers. Quite honestly Noslers tend to shoot fantastically well, and do perform wonderfully.
The Vltor Piston system in Grendel is awesome indeed, and is flawless, quite a few people looking at them these days, I have shot the crap out of one and failed to get it to malfunction on me. We will see more of these.

The AK bolt does indeed rotate to lock like a Garand, and like a Garand also cams off of the carrier/op rod assembly. The majortiy of SemiAutos do though. The FN being on exception, and the SKS, both of which lock on their shoulder, which Smoke and Essay know, which are also very interesting, but wear creates headspace problems on these guys sometimes prematurely because of the nature of the beast, which in the SKS, makes little difference, but the FN can suffer accuracy over the symptom.
To the SUB main point, the AK is a blend of design that coupled with the cheap and sloppyness of Soviet manufacture......... flourishes anywhere. The Egyptians have been the worst I have come across, and although can be made to run like an AK should, often require tinkering to say the least, and therefore I shy away from them. MAADI! Sorry, just hit me............I have to say it when it hits my brain or it may be lost forever LOL. Was a bit delayed, but there nonetheless.

Thanks for this thread, keeps me thinking and remembering things I forgot I knew!

[gunsmoke]

The Egyptians have been the worst I have come across, and although can be made to run like an AK should, often require tinkering to say the least, and therefore I shy away from them. MAADI! Sorry, just hit me............I have to say it when it hits my brain or it may be lost forever LOL. Was a bit delayed, but there nonetheless.

Thanks for this thread, keeps me thinking and remembering things I forgot I knew!



+1 on the Egyptian AK.

As dar as I know they were the first that were comercially available in the U S and 1 cousin and two friends rushed out and bought them when they first came available. I shot all three and they were serious dromidary feces.

My cousin is the only one who hung on to his shooting between 400-500 rds and put it back in the box and in the back of the safe. He passed away sometime ago and I arrume his son whois a lite Col in the USA probably has it now. The worst /chinese I ever saw was a CLAYCO which were available around the time of the Egyptian. The Egyptians had some really light guage sheet metal the Claycos were not as bad but they had the same tin-can quality to them. I don't know for sure but I doubt the Egyptian had 1.0 mm thick stock and I know they were not properly heat treated.

[essayons4791]

Hey all,

Figured I'd check the forum one last time before getting out of here. It's a good day when all the duffels are stacked, and everyone has nothing to do but sit in the sun and wait to go home...

Yeah, Arab copies of weapons usually leave a little to be desired. I'd shy away from AK clones (or any other gun) that originates from the Cradle of Civilization. They might be neat for collector reasons, but for function look for weapons made further north or east.

Same goes for ammo. Sometimes waves of stuff comes from the middle east for dirt cheap, but it was either stored improperly, or manufactured shoddily. I'll never forget one large lot of Iraqi .303 I bought years ago, it shot like a flintlock musket. Click, pause, crack. Just a little unnerving. Fine to blast away with, but no good for real world use.

I was also suprised by the relationship between the M1 and the AK- I found out about it when I started to seriously research Garands about four years ago. I had no idea how much influence the Garand design had upon Kalashnikov- a Garand is displayed at the Kalashnikov museam in Ishevsk (you can take an online tour, pretty neat. On the website, Kalashnikov pays tribute to two American inventors- John Garand and Bill Ruger.) American autoloaders were highly regarded in Russia. Another American gun that played a minor role in AK development was the Remingtom Model 8- the safety/selector was taken directly from it's design. Appparently lots of Rem model 8's had been imported to Russia before the revolution, and it was a fairly popular firearm there.

Just a few trivia tidbits for you all.

[jim]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Garand and the AK both have a double sear arrangement?

Back in my recon days they once brought in a bunch of AK's for us to familiarize with. I liked the Russian version, but fell in love with an East German model. Boy was that one sweet piece of steel! Milled receiver, butter smooth action, and more accurate than the Russian model by a good margin. We had no bench to shoot from, but I'm guessing groups were hovering around 2" at 100 yds.

I spent two hours trying to figure out how to steal it, some mags and a case of ammo (unavailable back then). Had to give up and turn it back to the Opfor personnel, and was almost in tears when I handed it over. I would have LOVED to be able to keep that little honey! Tears in my beer over that one.

jim

[jim]

I forgot. I think the 5.56 round necked up to either 6MM or 6.5MM would be best in the M16 action. Hate the M16 platform with a passion! They've improved it a great deal, and the ammo too.

Too bad we adhere to the Geneva convention so strictly. The 5.56 would be a lot better round if it was loaded with 65-70 gr Barnes type X-bullet, or at least a strong steel jacket, with a steel core penetrator in the back with a plastic cone in the nose. It would tumble better on impact with flesh, and tend to penetrate better on harder materials like walls and sheetmetal. Almost anything would be an improvement. Failing that, then a steel jacket that breaks on impact at the cannelure. Wishes!

jim

[rice paddy daddy]

I'm a USGI weapons fan, love my Garand, but I bought a Romanian AKM just 'cause Obammy don't want me to have one, and it's a hoot to shot. I'll bet a real AK47 (selective fire) would be about the best all around combat rifle.
And before any fans of the Black Magic Evil Death Ray (AR system) get all upset let me add that I have some experience with the M16A1, and don't care to own an AR. If you do, that's fine.
I also have a couple of Mosin Nagants and a Chinese SKS and I am a fan of Com Bloc reliability and effectivness.

[Oblio13]

I just can't stand those AK safeties, sights and triggers.

[essayons4791]

Hey everyone,

Back in the Land of the Big PX, and glad to be home again. Been tinkering around the house a bit, getting ready to build a new barn, etc. Loving the rainy weather, I missed it.

Anyway, to stay on subject- yes, the Garand trigger system was also used by Kalashnikov in simplified form. The Mighty M1 and the AK had a direct relationship with each other, even though you wouldn't know it to look at them.

I also agree the finest AK variant is the E. German gun, shame masses of parts kits from those haven't made it over here for some reason. A bunch of them have been sold to our Iraqi allies- they'll be trash in no time flat.

And there's pretty much nothing to be done about the AK's safety- it is what it is, effective and crude. A lot of the trigger problems, however, can be fixed. If you put a Tapco trigger group in, the trigger gets nice all of a sudden. And the sights are also what they are- however, a Mojo sight (nice little aperture sight, drops in just like the mil-spec one) fixes a lot of those complaints, too.

An AK is what you make of it, I guess. At least it doesn't malfunction at the slightest provocation, unlike some rifles I can think of.

[essayons4791]

One last note: Yes, I like a lot of US military weapons, too. Carrying an M4 feels too much like going to work for me, and the M16 family are a hassle to maintain, period. 15 years in the Army, so I know a little about that.

M1's, however, are superb weapons by any measure. Really excellent guns- and the AK is it's direct descendent. I like M1 carbines, too. And when I get a chance to buy one of those Hi-Standard M1911A1 clones, it's a done deal.

But when the chips are down, give me an AK.

[rice paddy daddy]

Welcome home!

[Pitdog]

Good to see you again, when you get with your barn, you can come help me with mine. Rainy your way too? First day of sun here.

[macgeoghagen]

I took my wasr 10 out to the range this past weekend. I still don't know how accurate it is. 0 hits on paper at 50 yards from the bench. I think it may have served duty as a tent stake more than once.

[essayons4791]

Yeah, it was raining here like crazy, and I worked in it. Got a deal on a big "cull wood" pile at the local lumber yard, and spent all Friday and Saturday sorting and stacking it. Some of it's ugly, but it will serve. Treated, too.

So now I'm sick as a dog, of course.

Shame you can't hit with that AK. When I have a "mystery gun" like that, I paint a human silhouette on a junk piece of plywood or something, and shoot at it at about 20 yards. That'll usually tell me what the problem is, rather than wasting a bunch of ammo. Then I adjust the sights accordingly. Some weapons shoot in the weirdest places, and the above technique is the only one I've found that will troubleshoot the problem every time.

Some weapons cannot be helped without major intervention, however. When I came home I had a 1917 Enfield from the CMP waiting for me that had the worst bore I've ever seen, seriously. That rifle "grouped" about 5 feet at 20 yards, and keyholed every other round. It was a sight to see. So I kept the gorgeous stock it had (the whole reason I bought the rifle in the first place) and sold it to a buddy. He counterbored it TWO INCHES and finally got some kind of accuracy out of it, grouping about 10 inches at fifty. Not exactly match material, for sure.

I'll bet we could make that AK outshoot that Enfield without much of a problem.

[essayons4791]

Thanks, rice paddy daddy. Coming home is always tough. So I stay real busy. Four and a half years to retirement.

[rice paddy daddy]

Thanks, rice paddy daddy. Coming home is always tough. So I stay real busy. Four and a half years to retirement.
Hang in there, buddy. I lasted 2 years, 9 months and 28 days (but who wuz countin?).:D

[Oblio13]

... Four and a half years to retirement.


I always used to say I wanted twenty years, but I didn't want twenty years and one day.