Question about cattle farming

[MarkandPam]

Hello friends,

I'm kindof new to this, but I really like everything I've read here. You all have quite an impressive site.

My wife and I currently live in Florida, and for a few years now, we've been thinking of starting a small-scale cattle farm either here or on some property (150 ac) we have in Tn/Ky area.

I have a few questions if there are any cattle farmers and you have a few minutes. We greatly appreciate any response.

What is the best way to get started? Any advice would be great since we don't have a clue.

How many cows do I need to have in order to make a decent living? Is there a way to compute or determine?

How many acres per cow should I figure?

Also, how do you determine annual expenditures per cow?

What do you look for when you look for a farm?

Well, I have a few more questions, but I don't want to take up too much of your time.

Thanks so much for any advice.

Mark and Pamela

[wr]

Stocking ratios would depend on your area and any information must be local. I would recomend that you keep no more cattle than your landbase and it's likely wise to start with a few and build. I can assure you, you will see a mortality rate in the beginning and there's a lot to learn. Cattle is a broad term. You can start as a cow/calf operation, background a few steers or a lot of steers or you can keep grassers (heiferettes that will be on your grass with a bull and sold as bred heifers). In my opinion, you can not make any money in cattle without keeping a sharp eye on costs and if you have to lease pasture or buy feed.

[Terri]

Welcome!

I do not raise cattle, but, a farming instructor once told me to always figure costs will be at least 10% higher than your figures will call for. NOBODY is able to figure for every piece of rope or box of nails they will need.

[jim]

WR knows. Pay close attention.

jim

[wr]

At the onset, you'll find that the learning curve is going to cost you in vet bills and mortality (I can assure you that you'll loose a few because of what you simply don't know). *I would also recomend that you not get into bottle feeding calves to start your herd. *I find they are labor and cost intensive with little return at the other end. *The mature more slowly, are prone to sickness (not in all cases but many start their journey without colostrum). *When you consider you hay or grass costs and availability, always make your considerations based on a bad year/worst case scenario, rather than optimistically. *If you're breeding, you need to consider bull costs and they are a pain, they are simply useful for one thing and when they aren't working, they seem to be a problem - or AI costs. *Your fences must be good and if they aren't, you can look to a fairly great expense in upgrading. *If you enter in the the dairy arena, your costs are incredibly high and adequate feed doesn't cut it, for good milk production, you need the best of the best and it's really labor intensive. *If you enter in the beef area, I recomend looking into red or black angus, they calve easier (but you will learn to pull a calf) and they are extremely marketable.

[oldnndway]

Don't know where y'all are at but in Texas there is the Agricultural Extension Agent in each county (other states may have them too)

He has not only knowledge of the area and practices there but also tons of free literature to help you.
The Ag agent would be a real good place to ask questions pertaining tp your location.

[Mark_and_Nicole]

welcome to the board M&P

Mark

[Shadow]

Cattle farming is a 24/7 job, after trying it several years ago we got out and have never looked back. Our neighbor has a nice herd him and his father has spent years building. They have them on 800 plus acres next to us. They seldom leave home for more than a day. Always more to do than can get done and do they make a living at it no, its a job that at some times pays good some times like last year when the dumb cattle got into acorns and 16 head ate too many and killed them selves a bad time. His herd is around 120 head, and he has good pasture land with a large creek running thru. About a week ago 20 or so was in out garden, good thing the garden was done for the year Tree had blown down and tore down his fence. Spent most of a day cutting up the tree and repairing the fence. Not the life for me as it never lets up.

[Thomas]

I agree with most of what mr says, not necessarily the mortality thing. The stock you choose is important. Get a knowledgeable friend to help you choose them. You might want to get good quality heifers and raise them yourself, not letting them have a first calf till they are over 2yrs to avoid some problems. I dont think I would buy them at auction, its like a used car auction, they are all there for a reason. Go to some ag classes, like a Beef Quality Assurance, and to learn the ratings, some hands on castration and shots, implants and tags. You will need to get a trailer, and if you are so inclined maybe a headgate. Then theres floats, troughs, hoses, sprayers, bottles, pails, nipples, needles, hay rings, etc. Not even talking about a tractor if you are going to use round bales or the large squares. And you will need to build some pens. Genes are important in buying a bull. Black Angus sells for better prices around here. And yeah, the bottle calf thing, yeah, they are cheap initially, but you really work to get them to live, pour money in them, and they are slower to grow. I do enjoy them however, but have problems parting with them. How many to make a living, I dont know, 110-120 head? Actually, I'm not sure you could break even stealing the damn things.

[wr]

Thomas, I do feel the initial years, people miss little things and it costs them. I've had people call me to come look a cow/heifer cause she's sick and in reality, she's down and in need of intensive treatment rather than minor treatment. I've had people miss dull looking calves and call me when their lungs are so full of fluid that the drugs can't work quick enough to save them. It's all a matter of learning as you go and I find that certain things crop up on certain years. Pneumonia may be an issue on a wet cold year but many people have never heard of dust pneumonia or stress pneumonia at weaning. I would not recomend heifers to someone starting out but instead I'd recomend they look to mature cows, simply to avoid the complications that come with heifers. There are problems with heifers calving and again, that brings on a learning curve of assisted deliveries or heifers walking away from calves and people having to struggle with a partial setup trying to get a heifer to mother up. If a person buys some older cows (even nearing the the end of 'big operation usage) they can get another few calves out of them and they are proven calvers and proven mothers. I don't really remember the learning curve because I spent all my life with cattle & horses but it's my observations based on rescuing neighbors new to the business. I do like your idea of taking courses, it's a wonderful suggestion and didn't know of any available. Here in Alberta, the only courses I know of are full time college courses for those that already have a lot of background.

[Thomas]

Well, yeah, looking at it you are probably right. There are lots of miss diagnosis and signs to not be noticed till its too late. I still feel very wary about auction older cattle. Raising my own heifers has been very good to me, and I think that comes from not breeding them too early. The problem I have encounted with them is not wanting to nurse the calf. Course then you are back to what you were saying, and a new person could miss that the calf wasnt getting what it needed till too late. Maybe these people really need a nearby mentor, and a small number of older bred cattle to get their feet wet.

[wr]

I don't think I'd go shopping at a general auction for anything. If I were getting into a breed of cattle, I think I'd get my butt over to the farm supply store and such and I'd start asking questions about who, in the area, raised the best cattle of whatever breed I was looking for. I'd likely head to the auctions and see who's calves were selling best and ask more questions about the 'good' ranchers. After settling on a few, I'd get on the phone and start quizzing them and when the dust settled, I might not pick the guy with the best sales prices but I'd settle on the guy that sells well and is willing to teach and I'd look to buy a few of his good cows but not the top end. I'd see if he'd work with me, mentor me and help me breed up. In my area, I've been that gal and I'm more than happy to sell someone one of my good cow, as long as I have a couple heifers, at a very decent price. I always ask them for first right of refusal if they choose to sell the cow again and I've answered a million phone calls but I can sleep at night knowing that someone isn't getting screwed at an auction and they aren't bringing illness to their own site. I'm a big fan of education and wish that many others weren't so busy trying to keep the cattle industry a big mystery.

[MarkandPam]

WOW, hats off to all of the replies; wr, I could sit and listen to you all darn day.

You've really given me something to think about.

I know what you mean about the cattle industry being a "mystery".

What's the idea or goal with these heifers? Do they get to a certain age and then sell them for beef?

Do you just fatten them and then sell?

What's the best method that everyone does?

I'm trying to get the overall idea; do I keep the parents and sell the calves when they get to be a few years old???

Also, I definately am thinking black angus and beef. Dairy cattle are waaay too much more than I'm interested.

My wife and I are very thankful. Still clueless, but veeery thankful for your information.

Mark and Pamela

[jim]

Though I've only read about it, Intensive Grazing and self marketing of cut beef seems to be making headway among small producers that don't want to be rape victims for the buyers at the auctions.

Perhaps you can look into what Joel Salatin is doing.

jim

[wr]

One of my strongest suggestions is to work into the cattle biz slowly. You may want to start with a couple steers to fatten, put one in your freezer & sell the balance. It's a great way to start to get a feel for livestock. You can also buy females a couple females and lease your grass out thus allowing you to utilize someone else's bull, and utilize their knowledge while making your land pay. You can buy older cows and keep your heifers back as replacements (as Thomas recomends) and there is a lot of merit in it because you know exactly what your getting (based on mothers production and maternal abilities) and it allows you to develop a young herd. You can buy or lease heiferettes, breed them and they are sold after breeding for broodstock without having to deal with calving but I personally love calving season. In many ways, your wife will be a great asset, if you go cow/calf because women do seem to have a good eye for unwell, even if we can't put our finger on the cause. Your climate is way more moderate than mine so you wouldn't have to be seasonal breeders so that is something you'd have to learn from someone more local. Because of our intense winters, we breed for spring calves with weaning in late fall. I agree with Thomas that the profit margin in cattle is fairly slim so it's wise to start smaller and work your way up. I also feel that it's wise to purchase your cattle rather than finance because the interest compounded with the expected 10% mortality rate will kill you. I don't think I've ever experienced a mortality rate that high but it's generally the expected rate. I would expect if you went with older cows, you'd see that but you'd be paying less than you would be for heifers. If I went with heifers, I would look at buying a little Jersey or Holstein cow as a nurse cow. That way if you do happen to loose an older cow after calving, you have a surrogate. I've kept one around for years and although I've seldom had to use her, I always end up with a couple of someone else's calves on shares because it's easier than bottle feeding. If I were going to get into the bottle calf racket, that's the only way I'd go or I'd use a milking goat, which I've done in the past and it's worked well for me.