How accurate are military rifles?

[Oblio13]

Decided to compose this post after reading the accuracy claims of some internet commandos. 1" groups at 100 yards with surplus rifles, gritty triggers, iron sights and ammunition left over from WWII? No way. Not even close.

There are indeed rifles and shooters capable of extreme accuracy. They are world-class competitors, and none of them are doing it like the Special Forces Seal Ninja Snipers on www.AK47.com, with the cheapest rifles and ammunition they can find.

The closest group that an average human can hold, even from a shooting bench and using sandbags, is about 1/2". All the inconsistencies of the rifle and ammunition are added onto that 1/2".

The best that most unmodified military rifles are capable of with standard ball ammo is 3-4" groups.

Expect at least double that from AK47's.

The army considers 4" groups from it's brand new M4's normal and adequate.

Enfield sniper rifles were specially selected and tuned and were expected to shoot groups that were 1" wide and 3" high.

If you're frustrated because you can't achieve the accuracy you keep reading about on your favorite web site, you can relax. Even better, the next time someone at the range tells you his Mosin-Nagant will shoot one M.O.A. groups, slap a hundred dollar bill on the bench and tell him you'd like to see it.

Bonus historical trivia to enrich your life: During the Civil War, internet commandos had to write with pens made of feathers dipped in ink, because Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet. Robert E. Lee called them "knights of the quill".

[Stinger]

:) My own experience with military calibers and rifles would indicate that the figures stated in the above post are not universally true. I've shot on the firing line while lying right next to target-grade 30-06 caliber or 7.62 x 51mm rifles that could, literally, place shots into quarter-size groups - or even through the same hole - at 100 yards.

I own, and have owned, AK-74 or SKS rifles that definitely produce 3-4" groups at 100 yards. (My favorite AK-74 variant will repeatedly fire 1 3/4" groups with M855 ammo!) I've, also, fired AK-47 rifles that would consistently produce 3-4" groups while using Barnaul 123 grain FMJ (bimetal) ammunition.

A practiced rifleman is capable of being every bit as accurate as his bore and ammunition will allow. In this regard I do not consider an experienced rifleman to be, 'an average human being'. When it comes to hitting the target, a heavily experienced rifleman is, indeed, an, 'extraordinary' marksman.

Right now I've got a (relatively new) Colt 6920LE, complete with a 'gritty trigger', that can easily produce 1 3/4" groups at 100 yards. As for some of these Mosin-Nagant rifles that are around now, I don't know? Maybe a good rlfleman with a choice piece could get 1 1/2" @ 100 yards out of the a particular M-N rifle with the right ammunition - Maybe! I'll agree that it's unlikely for an, 'average marksman' to do it, though.

As far as using a Mosin-Nagant rifle to produce, 'minute-of-angle' groups at 100 yards? Naa, I don't see this sort of rifle doing that - especially with WWII ammo.

[Oblio13]

:) ... through the same hole - at 100 yards....

No military rifle puts three rounds through the same hole at 100 yards unless it's had some truly expert work done on it and is being fired by another true expert.

[Stinger]

I don't believe I used the term, 'military rifle' in this context. What I said is, 'target grade'. (I specifically meant, 'benchrest'.) Neither did I say anything about putting 3 shots through the same hole. I've certainly seen plenty of two's and, on occasion, I've seen a few truly remarkable 100 yard targets where multiple rounds had to pass through, or immediately around, the same central bullet hole.

Then again, there's the M-40 series of sniper rifles. I've never fired one; but, I have heard some remarkable stories - especially about the A-3. None of this is fantasy; I can say from personal experience that it's really annoying to have to shoot off against a competitor whose rifle and/or ammunition make him appear to be better with a gun than he actually is.

True, it's only, 'wood and steel'; but, I swear, there have been days and there have been shots where I am convinced it was more, 'mind than bullet'. If you've ever been there you know what I mean. ;)

HERE'S (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_rifle) some good reading!

[Oblio13]

From the article you referenced (and remember that this is about precision sniper rifles, not run-of-the-mill stuff):

"A 2008 United States military market survey for a Precision Sniper Rifle (PSR) calls for 1 MOA ... extreme vertical spread ... meaning the horizontal spread and hence extreme spread are allowed to exceed 1 MOA ... In 2009 a United States Special Operations Command market survey calls for 1 MOA ... extreme vertical spread ... Meanwhile current US Sniper Systems ... do not meet this requirement."

The point I've been trying to make is that people shoot really, REALLY well on the internet. But on the range, anyone getting better than 4 MOA from a stock battle rifle with ball ammo is a very rare animal.

:) ... Right now I've got a (relatively new) Colt 6920LE, complete with a 'gritty trigger', that can easily produce 1 3/4" groups at 100 yards....

In fact, if you're ever in my neck of the woods, bring that rifle and some cash, because I'll take that wager. :eek:

[Stinger]

YOU DA MAN!

[Pitdog]

Where is your neck of the woods? I have several one hundred dollar bills I picked up off of the bench that people laid down to tell me what I couldn't do.
The AVERAGE stock military rifle is not capable of MOA or sub MOA, however depending on country of origin, caliber, design, ammo, bullet weight VS rifling twist and on and on. There are exceptions to every rule, and there ARE rifles of most sort (Mil grade) that will do far beyond what the 'marksman' behind the trigger can do, and will perform MOA or sub for the true expert behind the trigger.
Occasionally there are rifles out there that perform above and beyond, without question, every time. You are right in the phenomenon of the superswatgreenberetninjasupermegasniper who is capable of 1 inch groups at 10 - no -20 thousand yards.
Just be careful who you do lay a 100 dollar bill on the table infront of ;)

[Oblio13]

... I have several one hundred dollar bills I picked up off of the bench that people laid down to tell me what I couldn't do... there ARE rifles of most sort (Mil grade) that will ... perform MOA or sub ... Just be careful who you do lay a 100 dollar bill on the table infront of


Here's your chance to add me to your list. (I could be either rich or broke by the time this thread runs it's course.) ;)

How's this for easy money: Bring any stock military rifle and any ball ammo. Bring all the witnesses you like. Take all the fouling shots you want. Take all the practice shots you want. Whenever you're ready, we'll see if you can put the next five rounds in a one MOA group. We'll photograph and video the whole thing, and post it here, on my blog, and anywhere else you'd like. We can make it $1,000 if $100 isn't worth your while.

[Pitdog]

I have an M-1a I'd put to that challenge, I also have a 6.5 Swede, but I don't know if I have any of the old 6.5 Swede ammo I had for it. I had some that was imported in several years ago that was Norma contracted mil spec ammo. Open sight, 100 yards, consistent 3/4'' groups, although until I bought one of the high dovetailed front sight blades from Brownell's, the point of impact was a foot high as the stock sight was set for a 300 meter zero. I know I have reloads and prvi Partizan, but that is not military ammo.
I do also have a 6.5 Grendel in 'stock' military configuration with A2 sights I would put up to the challenge with factory loads.
Mosin Nagants? Got one that shoots great, but not Sub Moa. .303? Nah, got some old Radway Green ball ammo that shoots good, but not much better than minute of barn window.

You still never told me where to go?

[Oblio13]

Central NH. Pemi Fish and Game Club.

... mil spec ammo. Open sight, 100 yards, consistent 3/4'' groups...

Let's do that one, for as much cash as you can scrape up. I'll mortgage my house for a wager like that.

[Pitdog]

Aaaaaaaah yankee AND a retired Marine, tells me everything I need to know.
My EX step mother was from 'Nue Ampsha' and her mouth was as big as her A double Ess too.
I will nip this in the bud now and state this with finality- I won't be making any trips to NH to be in the presence of your likes, however when I draw my VT Moose Tag and I'm on my way up, I will be glad to stop in and shoot. You however, keep the change necessary to pay for the house a retired Marine could afford in NH, and I'll put my money on the table, and if I can't do what I say I can, then you can upgrade to a single wide with what I put on the table.
I REALLY do love the guys who TALK about ALL the OTHER people TALKING on the internet.

The only Marine I ever liked was the one who replied to a coworker on Veteran's day who thanked him 'Don't thank me. Don't EVER thank me. I didn't fight for your freedom, I joined and fought because I liked to kill.'

[Oblio13]

I didn't think you'd actually put your money where your mouth is.

Any other internet commandos want to give it a go? Any stock military rifle, any ball ammo? All the fouling shots you want? All the practice shots you need? Whenever you're ready, five rounds for record with the pics and video posted here?

Anyone?

<crickets>

[jim]

I wouldn't do this for money, but I wanted to warn you about something. It is possible to use an inertial bullet puller to remove slugs from military ball loads. By doing this with M1 ball loads, one only has to weigh and mike the slugs or replace them with a good lot of FMJ's of modern make. and load them over a hand weighed charge of IMR 4350. Something like 55.0 to 58.0 plus grains and a trimmed to length case will do it. Re-laquer the case mouth let dry and then age it and the slug a little with some dust or something a little dark. Any good reloader could do this and take all your money once he knows what the group will do in his particular Springfield (or any other 06').

My Springfield will shoot very close to 1" with 58.0 gr. of 4350 and into one inch with 57.2 of 4350 under a 168 gr. Sierra Game King. I can't shoot that well any more, but it is nice to dream. WWII ball gets me 1.5" to 5" groups at 100 yds.

As to your original post, for the most part, you are exactly right. But, like in anything else, there are always exceptions to the rule. Still, most times you be taking home money.

jim

[rice paddy daddy]

I have found that when being shot at, adreneline and whatever position you have managed to assume will pretty much rule out benchrest technique. Especially after dark when you are firing at muzzle flashes (and they, yours).
The 'net is full of gunstore commandos and chairborne rangers.
I will not brag about my weapon handling prowess except to say I have survived to reach the age of 61.
Just my two cents, your mileage may vary.

[Rick]

To mirror some earlier points, ammunition is very important.

With 168 gr MatchKing Sierras over 43.6 gr [if I remember correctly] of IMR 4064, it is pretty easy to get sub moa 5 shot groups. Using the same rifle minutes later, the groups opened up to about 7" using mil-spec ammo.

The load I use is hand loaded to Federal GM Match specs. The mil-spec is 147 gr manufactured some wheres overseas.

[Pathfinder]

I didn't think you'd actually put your money where your mouth is.

Any other internet commandos want to give it a go? Any stock military rifle, any ball ammo? All the fouling shots you want? All the practice shots you need? Whenever you're ready, five rounds for record with the pics and video posted here?

Anyone?

<crickets>


5 rounds @ 100 yards?

Stock rifle and military ball ammo?

If its scoped originally does that count?

[Pitdog]

I checked, not but two rounds of that old Swede ammo with, however if any one has any or knows where to find the ammo I am speaking of, please let me know.
I do however have plenty of ball ammo and a Stock M1 A. I do still have the Grendel I spoke of with A-2 Irons on it.

I'm afraid I don't have access to video equipment, but I do have a key to the company range and plenty of witnesses. We'll see what we can do.

Anyone try IMR 3031 in 7.62?

Also, is this group measured center to center? Or outside to outside? Inside to inside? How's that? What type of target? Does it matter. When money is on the line details matter.

[Oblio13]

This might become one of those epic threads after all.

I'll try to keep it as simple and standardized as possible:

Show up at the Pemi range on a mutually agreeable day.

Any stock military rifle, any standard ball ammo.

5 rounds at 100 yards.

We'll let the range master hold the money and measure the group.

Under 1 inch, you win.


If its scoped originally does that count?

What kind of military rifle is scoped that hasn't been tuned and modified? I can't think of any that haven't had at least trigger and bedding work. If there is such a thing, though, you're welcome to bring it.

... is this group measured center to center? Or outside to outside? Inside to inside? How's that? What type of target? ...

Center-to-center. Any kind of target.

... 6.5 Swede ... Open sight, 100 yards, consistent 3/4'' groups...

I checked, not but two rounds of that old Swede ammo ...

I'll even take that bet: Bring along your Swede and your two rounds. $100 bucks says you can't put them within 3/4". :D

[Pitdog]

Oh I will bring them to the range with me. Not to NH though, your insistence on everyone coming to you throws up red flags as well as your constant 'na na nanny boo boo' crap.

I invite everyone here and reading to - on your honor as a freaking human who isn't a POS- go to your range, and shoot within the parameters of this ice hole and let's pool our results.

[Oblio13]

Pitdog, your claim about "Open sight(s), 100 yards, consistent 3/4'' groups" with a standard military rifle and ball ammo is pure, classic, transparent 'internet commando' BS. You know it, I know it, and any service rifle competitor knows it.

I'm looking forward to seeing whatever you post. But I already know how well you shoot on the internet. This wager is about "internet commandos" who can't really shoot as well as they claim on the internet, remember? So, telling me how well you shoot on the internet again wouldn't advance things, would it?

You said you had an upcoming moose hunt in my neighborhood. I've given you a standing invitation to put your money where your mouth is, with pics and video posted.

No need to be rude and defensive and pontificate about "honor". Just show us.

[rice paddy daddy]

Rice leans back in his recliner with a bag of popcorn and a cold Pepsi to watch the show.:D

[MissouriFree]

.
Occasionally there are rifles out there that perform above and beyond, without question, every time. You are right in the phenomenon of the superswatgreenberetninjasupermegasniper who is capable of 1 inch groups at 10 - no -20 thousand yards.
L:)


How true, how true ..

I like that phrase :superswatgreenberetninjasupermegasniper LOL

[hunter63]

Rice leans back in his recliner with a bag of popcorn and a cold Pepsi to watch the show.:D

Rodger that.....
Should be intresting.

[jim]

Over at GoGovarmint hunters, they have postal matches all the time. Shooters get their witnesses (usually just someone that happens to be on the range) shoot their groups, signs and dates the targets and mails the results to the judge.

I volunteer to be the judge, and will measure center to center for the five shot group (2 shot also) with a micrometer. My reputation is of far more value to me than mere money, so you will get a fair hearing. Mail the certified checks to me via registered mail. That way, if I keep the money, then I go to the federal pen for mail fraud. Does anyone here trust me enough for that?

Further, I have a couple of boxes of Yugo 7.62X51MM ball loads that are excellent, and shoot very tight in my commercial rifle. I will ship them to someone that has a milspec 7.62 so they can use them if they're interested.

jim

[mlbfanatic0317]

Oblio13, you talk a lot of smack....but i bet YOU cant shoot that!

[Oblio13]

Oblio13, you talk a lot of smack....but i bet YOU cant shoot that!

I can't. No one can. That's the point. It's better than M40 sniper rifles are required to do from a machine rest with match ammo.

3/4 M.O.A. with an unmodified service rifle, ball ammo and open sights is like a factory Volkswagen that goes 0-60 in three seconds.

You can make all the claims you want on the internet, but it just doesn't happen.

[Oblio13]

... Mail the certified checks to me ....

Are you from Nigeria? ;)

Let's cut out the middle man, just mail certified checks to me. :D

Seriously, even if I knew and trusted you, it would be silly to trust some Chairborne Ranger defending an impossible boast to mail you a legitimate target.

[Mad_Professor]

Decided to compose this post after reading the accuracy claims of some internet commandos. 1" groups at 100 yards with surplus rifles, gritty triggers, iron sights and ammunition left over from WWII? No way. Not even close.

There are indeed rifles and shooters capable of extreme accuracy. They are world-class competitors, and none of them are doing it like the Special Forces Seal Ninja Snipers on www.AK47.com, with the cheapest rifles and ammunition they can find.

The closest group that an average human can hold, even from a shooting bench and using sandbags, is about 1/2". All the inconsistencies of the rifle and ammunition are added onto that 1/2".

The best that most unmodified military rifles are capable of with standard ball ammo is 3-4" groups.

Expect at least double that from AK47's.

The army considers 4" groups from it's brand new M4's normal and adequate.

Enfield sniper rifles were specially selected and tuned and were expected to shoot groups that were 1" wide and 3" high.

If you're frustrated because you can't achieve the accuracy you keep reading about on your favorite web site, you can relax. Even better, the next time someone at the range tells you his Mosin-Nagant will shoot one M.O.A. groups, slap a hundred dollar bill on the bench and tell him you'd like to see it.

Bonus historical trivia to enrich your life: During the Civil War, internet commandos had to write with pens made of feathers dipped in ink, because Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet. Robert E. Lee called them "knights of the quill".


I had a springfield M1A NM w/6 X 18 redfield that would put a whole 20 rd clip of factory ammo (PMC 150 gr FMJ) in a ca. 1 1/2 hole at 100 yds. Thats a 20 shot group , not 3. After 20 rds it was one big hole. I'm sure military match or handloads would have improved things.

[Oblio13]

I had a springfield M1A NM w/6 X 18 redfield that would put a whole 20 rd clip of factory ammo (PMC 150 gr FMJ) in a ca. 1 1/2 hole at 100 yds. Thats a 20 shot group , not 3. After 20 rds it was one big hole. I'm sure military match or handloads would have improved things.


That's very good, but your rifle wasn't even close to stock.

The Springfield M1A is of course the commercial equivalent of the military M14, and the standard model shoots like a stock M14. Also like an M14, an M1A may be tuned and modified to increase its accuracy. The "NM" above stands for "National Match". When you bought it, you probably noticed that it cost a lot more than the standard model.

From Springfield Armory's website:

"Springfields's National Match rifle offers incredible competition performance with features such as air gauged national match medium weight barrel, custom match grade recoil spring guide, national match gas system assembly, national match front sight, national match hoooded rear sight assembly, national match trigger assembly and flash suppressor. Custom glass bedded in a match grade American walnut stock."

Also, of course an 18x scope enhances your ability to sight it. Still, an entire magazine into 1 1/2" with ball ammo is very, very good. Match ammo would undoubtedly have improved that further. That rifle was a keeper. Stock military rifles do not shoot that well.

[rice paddy daddy]

Yawn.
*** Note to mods: can we get a "beating a dead horse" smilie?***

[Oblio13]

Yawn.


If the thread bores you, why not stop reading it?

[admin]

Just a thought...

Why don't those who have the weapons, ammunition, and skill simply visit their local range, have the range master verify the weapon and ammo, then take the shots and have the range master sign and date it within the scanable area of the target, then scan it and post it somewhere so folks can take a look.

Might be a good idea to ask the range master to include the range and phone number, too, for those skeptics who want to verify.

Seems like that'd be a lot easier than traveling long distances to make a point.


Oliver

[Oblio13]

I wouldn't bet money on something I can't witness, but I'd love to see what people can do just for fun. How about these ground rules:

Any stock military rifle. (i.e., in "as issued" condition, no accuracy enhancements like bedding or trigger work, squared bolt face, lapped lugs, upgraded sights, etc.)

Ball ammo.

100 yard range. (A measured range, not something paced off or "guestimated".)

Bench with sandbags.

First 5 round group. (i.e., don't shoot two or more and pick the best one.)

Fouled bore.


Maybe we should start a new thread just for posting pics.

I'm about to leave on a five-day camping trip, when I get back I'll shoot a stock AR, Garand and Enfield and post pics of the targets. Just for comparison, I'll also shoot an M1A and Garand that have had some accuracy work done.

In the meantime, my offer stands for anyone passing thru or living nearby. Pitdog, don't lose those two rounds before your moose hunt. ;)

[oeb]

I was gettin' all inspired to contribute so I grabbed five rounds and the old M1 then started to head for the range when darn, it came back to me... I can't even clearly see a target through iron at 100-yds. You guys truly are "superswatgreenberetninjasupermegasnipers," to borrow a phrase.
My hat is off to ya!
Please pass the popcorn.

Otis

[jim]

I think you can do it with "Edit" and delete.

jim

[jim]

Just a thought...

Why don't those who have the weapons, ammunition, and skill simply visit their local range, have the range master verify the weapon and ammo, then take the shots and have the range master sign and date it within the scanable area of the target, then scan it and post it somewhere so folks can take a look.

Might be a good idea to ask the range master to include the range and phone number, too, for those skeptics who want to verify.

Seems like that'd be a lot easier than traveling long distances to make a point.


Oliver

Excellent idea. I still trust the honesty of certian folks around here. Of course, I've been here since 97' too.

jim

[Pitdog]

I wish to apologize to anyone I have offended, my meds just aren't working and my fuse is short for bullshiite.
I think Oliver's idea is on par with mine and I am willing to participate, and participate with Jim as well. Due to work and work related travel, it may be a week before I can again get to the range, but you can bet I will be getting there. I have three rifles to shoot and the targets originals, will be made available and we will atleast get MY end of these claims out of the way. Which I will REiterate- The AVERAGE stock military rifle will not shoot sub MOA. BUT with reference to the guidelines I pointed out before, there ARE exceptions to the rule and they can be refined further to factors such as:
The point in the process in which the barrel was made and HOW it was made:
Was the barrel bored straighter? With a sharper better drill and reamer? Was the rifling cut? Broached? Buttoned? Number of Rifling? I recently built up two 03A3's for a Gentleman who har two brand new 4 groove REM barrels that were better than current production brand name civillian barrels.
The assembler's attention to detail- Torque specs, headspace, fit of parts.

Ocassionally ALL or some of these factors come together to produce a better than normal production line firearms that is capable of more than minute-of-enemy soldier. I happen to have one in the caliber and model listed above, and believe you me, the Swedes were known for the quality and workmanship of their rifles, and it should be easier for one to believe that the percentage of superb examples will be higher under such circumstances.

The average 'internet commando' is capable of 'minute-of-barn door' accuracy with whatever they have because they spend more time on line than on range. I fully agree with that, no questions asked. I am frequently asked to field calls at work and EVERYone I talk to is a 'Benchrest' shooter because they shoot off of a picnic table. Everyone of them has been reloading for 20 - no 30 I mean 35 years and EVERY other firearm they own is a pencil eraser groups shooting machine, and they compete CONSTANTLY-
But they need to know what the thingy is that connects the doo flatchy to WHAT THE HELL IS THIS? That they took apart according to the manual which is wrong and the picture was blurred and the spring launched the object that wasn't supposed to be lost across the garage into the laundry room into the cat pan that the wife threw away. AND they WERE accurzing it with a bedding kit their GUNSMITH/ BALLISTICIAN NEIGHBOR bought at a flea market clearance table.

But it's a crappy product and we don't know what we're doing.

It's all the same, internet, gun shop, phonecall, but occasionally, once in a while, I pick up the phone and there IS someone who knows what they are talking about.

[ArmySGT.]

I wish to apologize to anyone I have offended, my meds just aren't working and my fuse is short for bullshiite.
I think Oliver's idea is on par with mine and I am willing to participate, and participate with Jim as well. Due to work and work related travel, it may be a week before I can again get to the range, but you can bet I will be getting there. I have three rifles to shoot and the targets originals, will be made available and we will atleast get MY end of these claims out of the way. Which I will REiterate- The AVERAGE stock military rifle will not shoot sub MOA. BUT with reference to the guidelines I pointed out before, there ARE exceptions to the rule and they can be refined further to factors such as:
The point in the process in which the barrel was made and HOW it was made:
Was the barrel bored straighter? With a sharper better drill and reamer? Was the rifling cut? Broached? Buttoned? Number of Rifling? I recently built up two 03A3's for a Gentleman who har two brand new 4 groove REM barrels that were better than current production brand name civillian barrels.
The assembler's attention to detail- Torque specs, headspace, fit of parts.

Ocassionally ALL or some of these factors come together to produce a better than normal production line firearms that is capable of more than minute-of-enemy soldier. I happen to have one in the caliber and model listed above, and believe you me, the Swedes were known for the quality and workmanship of their rifles, and it should be easier for one to believe that the percentage of superb examples will be higher under such circumstances.

The average 'internet commando' is capable of 'minute-of-barn door' accuracy with whatever they have because they spend more time on line than on range. I fully agree with that, no questions asked. I am frequently asked to field calls at work and EVERYone I talk to is a 'Benchrest' shooter because they shoot off of a picnic table. Everyone of them has been reloading for 20 - no 30 I mean 35 years and EVERY other firearm they own is a pencil eraser groups shooting machine, and they compete CONSTANTLY-
But they need to know what the thingy is that connects the doo flatchy to WHAT THE HELL IS THIS? That they took apart according to the manual which is wrong and the picture was blurred and the spring launched the object that wasn't supposed to be lost across the garage into the laundry room into the cat pan that the wife threw away. AND they WERE accurzing it with a bedding kit their GUNSMITH/ BALLISTICIAN NEIGHBOR bought at a flea market clearance table.

But it's a crappy product and we don't know what we're doing.

It's all the same, internet, gun shop, phonecall, but occasionally, once in a while, I pick up the phone and there IS someone who knows what they are talking about.

Heh Heh, PM me your number. :D

[flatblack]

Reading this thread, I realize I must have low expectations for accuracy.

I guess for me it goes a little like this:

Handgun: Can I hit a sodapop can reliably at about 10-15 paces or so?
.22 rifle: Can I hit a squirrel way up on a branch in that tree over there?
old milsurp rifle: Can I hit a 12"x12" steel target at 200 yards?

If I can accomplish those goals with a given firearm, I'm pretty happy, and judge it to have an acceptable standard of accuracy.

[Pitdog]

Done Sarge. 303 Are code incoming?

[nhlivefreeordie]

however when I draw my VT Moose Tag and I'm on my way up, I will be glad to stop in and shoot.

Have you researched your possible chances of drawing a moose tag in the New England States? If you had, you would have seen that NH has the best chance of being drawn for an out of stater, last recorded was about a 1 in 55 chance of being drawn. Much better moose hunting and more available animals to shoot in NH, VT not so much.

I really don't want to get into a North/South pissing match, first off because any student of history knows that the war was fought over states rights, and if another one happened, I would likely add some firepower to the south's cause, BUT, for anyone degrading someone because they are from NH, I only have to say Joshua Chamberlain and the 20th Maine Regiment ( which was made up of Maine and NH boys ) clearly showed an already victorious rebel army what can happen when New Englanders decide enough is enough, your cause was good, your aim and ability severely lacking.

Brad,

Can I bring my AK and get that hundred dollars for 4" groups?? I am fairly confidant I can do that, I always figured with a military gun, if I could hit a party paper plate at 100 yards, it was good enough to kill most anything I wanted to. Once people start talking about sub MOA my eyes glaze over, and it sounds too much like work.

[WRTN]

My eyes glazed over 2 pages back. :rolleyes::sarcastic:;)

Where is the fork?????? Stick it in this thread.......it is charred black from being done. :D

[jim]

"BUT, for anyone degrading someone because they are from NH, I only have to say Joshua Chamberlain and the 20th Maine Regiment ( which was made up of Maine and NH boys ) clearly showed an already victorious rebel army what can happen when New Englanders decide enough is enough, your cause was good, your aim and ability severely lacking."

Sometimes, folks just get lucky or unlucky. No point in taking too much credit for being fortunate. {;^)

jim

[nhlivefreeordie]

"BUT, for anyone degrading someone because they are from NH, I only have to say Joshua Chamberlain and the 20th Maine Regiment ( which was made up of Maine and NH boys ) clearly showed an already victorious rebel army what can happen when New Englanders decide enough is enough, your cause was good, your aim and ability severely lacking."

Sometimes, folks just get lucky or unlucky. No point in taking too much credit for being fortunate. {;^)

jim

Some people make their own fortune in the way they live.:wink:

[jim]

Some do, but not all.

jim

[nhlivefreeordie]

Some do, but not all.

jim

It is only those that do that are the subject of that discussion. You don't get all of anything on one side of an issue, ever.

[flatblack]

So....have we decided that military rifles have an acceptable level of accuracy or not?

The debate rages on....

[longshot]

No military rifle puts three rounds through the same hole at 100 yards unless it's had some truly expert work done on it and is being fired by another true expert.

ok, true story. years ago my dad had to qualify in shooting and safe gun handling to get a moose license he fired 3 shots. the inspector said sorry only one shot in the paper. my dad made him dig out the 3 projectiles all three in one hole. at 100 yards. that was with an Enfield .303. i have that rifle now and it is very accurate. i dont know about other rifles but this one is dead on and i would trust my life to it. now bear in mind that each tool to a purpose.


dean

PS i first heard that story from the man who was supervising the qualifications for the big game licensing.

[Oblio13]

... all three in one hole. at 100 yards. that was with an Enfield .303. i have that rifle now and it is very accurate...

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the story is an exaggeration. Maybe the range was a lot less than 100 yards. Maybe the story just grew in the telling, as stories tend to do. There simply isn't such a thing as a stock Enfield that will put three rounds through the same hole. Alvin York couldn't do it. Not even Enfield sniper rifles in machine rests could do it.

... i first heard that story ...

And that's the point of this thread: You hear all kinds of stories about incredible accuracy with surplus rifles, but you never actually see it.

If you really think your rifle can, though, bring it on up with some cash and take me up on my standing offer. You don't need to put shots in the same hole, just in the same inch.

[jim]

One thing that hasn't been discussed or even mentioned yet. What I call freak groups. Where the law of averages catches up with you, the wibbles compensate for the wobbles, etc. I'm sure that every rifle will throw a freakishly tight group at least once in it's operational life time. Repeatable? Yeah, about like a winning lottery ticket. Does it happen. YES, even with throwing rocks. Would I bet anything at all on it? No. Patton lost a gold medal in the Olympics because of this.

Lucky shots every now and then? How about when one really fires what he knows what is going to be a miss, and he connects anyway? I've done that and pegged a target or animal when it should have been a clean miss. Did I take credit for it? Sure did! I'd have been credited with a miss if everything had been perfect, but a flier caused the miss. Still my fault right?

Does anyone have the nerve to deny this?

jim

[jim]

It is only those that do that are the subject of that discussion. You don't get all of anything on one side of an issue, ever.

Nor does one get a total of nothing either.

[nhlivefreeordie]

Nor does one get a total of nothing either.

Now that is just weird Jim.....:lol:

[longshot]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the story is an exaggeration. Maybe the range was a lot less than 100 yards. Maybe the story just grew in the telling, as stories tend to do. There simply isn't such a thing as a stock Enfield that will put three rounds through the same hole. Alvin York couldn't do it. Not even Enfield sniper rifles in machine rests could do it.



And that's the point of this thread: You hear all kinds of stories about incredible accuracy with surplus rifles, but you never actually see it.

If you really think your rifle can, though, bring it on up with some cash and take me up on my standing offer. You don't need to put shots in the same hole, just in the same inch.

well you dont know me or my dad. everyone who i have ever heard tell that story are honorable men not prone to stretch the tale so to speak. i have been shooting with my dad for many years and i can attest that he is that accurate. my dad is an honorable man, i am an honorable man. i teach and have taught marksmanship for years as a member of the Canadian Forces. you may be a Marine you may not, if so did you shoot a mop in the corps or some such? i have known and served with Marines on training and operations, i have to wonder where you would fit with those fine men and women.

as for a trip to prove something to you? ive proven my honor and my accuracy where it counts, in the field, in the woods, and places you've probably only read about in soldier of fortune or national geographic.

peace
dean

[Mad_Professor]

I wouldn't bet money on something I can't witness, but I'd love to see what people can do just for fun. How about these ground rules:

Any stock military rifle. (i.e., in "as issued" condition, no accuracy enhancements like bedding or trigger work, squared bolt face, lapped lugs, upgraded sights, etc.)

Ball ammo.

100 yard range. (A measured range, not something paced off or "guestimated".)

Bench with sandbags.

First 5 round group. (i.e., don't shoot two or more and pick the best one.)

Fouled bore.


Maybe we should start a new thread just for posting pics.

I'm about to leave on a five-day camping trip, when I get back I'll shoot a stock AR, Garand and Enfield and post pics of the targets. Just for comparison, I'll also shoot an M1A and Garand that have had some accuracy work done.

In the meantime, my offer stands for anyone passing thru or living nearby. Pitdog, don't lose those two rounds before your moose hunt. ;)

Well gezz, a "stock AR" is NOT a military rifle, nor are any of the AR variants sold here, or the 243/308 AK, or any AK-47 copy, or anything else that was originally selective fire......

How about some m98s, M1s, 03 Springfields, Endfields,..........an M1D sinper rifle would fit the bill....

I'll put my bet on a Whitworth ML, a TRUE military arm that you can buy a TRUE reproduction of.

Or YOU can start another thread for selective fire arms most of us cannot purchase..........

[flatblack]

I feel like I'm reading AR15.com or something, not the BACKWOODS HOME MAGAZINE rifle forum. :eek:

[Oblio13]

... a "stock AR" is NOT a military rifle...

No, but since most of us can't afford an M16, it's commercial equivalent is close enough. The wager stands for AR's and M1A's, as long as they haven't been modified with glass bedding, trigger work, etc.

How about some m98s, M1s, 03 Springfields, Endfields,...

Any of those are fine.

.......an M1D sinper rifle would fit the bill....

Actually, no. They have been extensively modified.

... you dont know me or my dad....

Of course not. But I know rifles.

One thing that hasn't been discussed or even mentioned yet. What I call freak groups....

They can happen, like the proverbial monkey writing War and Peace if it sits at a typewriter long enough. But the wager doesn't allow someone to shoot a hundred groups and then pick the best one. The odds against someone being that lucky are so small that I'm willing to discount them.

... you may be a Marine you may not, if so did you shoot a mop in the corps or some such? i have known and served with Marines on training and operations, i have to wonder where you would fit with those fine men and women....

Infantry officer, then fighter pilot, then adversary pilot.

[Rick]

I can consistently shoot .308 moa with my stock Garand.

Sometimes the group opens up a bit with my second shot though.

:D

[jim]

"They can happen, like the proverbial monkey writing War and Peace if it sits at a typewriter long enough. But the wager doesn't allow someone to shoot a hundred groups and then pick the best one. The odds against someone being that lucky are so small that I'm willing to discount them. "

They do happen and very often... just not with the same rifle. They also happen far more often than the monkey/War and Peace senario you used. Either you refuse to conceed a point that diminishes none of your OP, or you don't know firearms as well as you think you do. Which is it?

Otherwise, the original intention of your post -which is to get an arguement going- has suceeded admirably! Debate is good, and we need this from time to time. It should never be the end game though.

jim

[Pitdog]

I went for a VT Moose tag because I have family in VT. A place to hunt in VT. My roommate from Smithing school is from VT, and I like people from VT. Nothing about a north south thing here, you are too sensitive. I like a LOT of people from VT, I don't like anyone from NH that I have ever met, and no one here from NH has done anything to change that. When I do come through there, I want to find one of the Brass magnets that an NHer claimed existed, and see the 6 ft Woodpeckers and 250 lb coyotes he also told of.

After doing some measuring of the 6.5 rounds I thought I found for my Swede, these would appear to be 6.5 Arisaka rounds. The only ammo I have for the Swede is Prvi Patisan and reloads. I cannot guarantee the consistency of the Prvi Partisan in that rifle, and the reloads don't count, plus I have only shot them in my 'extensively modified' sporter Swede.

I still have the M1A, I still have stock military ball ammo, as well my stock AR15 in 6.5 Grendel with stock factory ammo. We shall see how it goes, weather and schedule conflict much more and I won't be shooting anything, for work or to research this thread.

The fact still remains, there are as many factors to support the idea that SOME STOCK military rifles will shoot sub moa @ 100 as there are to support that MOST STOCK military rifles WONT shoot sub MOA.

[nhlivefreeordie]

Are your arms tired from all that stretching?...hahaha:lol:

[nhlivefreeordie]

I went for a VT Moose tag because I have family in VT. A place to hunt in VT. My roommate from Smithing school is from VT, and I like people from VT.

Ok, so no where did that say that the reason was to increase chances of actually bagging a moose, so we can conclude that hunting means something else to you....cool...

[nhlivefreeordie]

Nothing about a north south thing here, you are too sensitive.


But....wasn't it you who started with the Yankee label...sensitive??...LOL

[Oblio13]

... the original intention of your post -which is to get an arguement going- has suceeded admirably! Debate is good, and we need this from time to time. It should never be the end game though...

The original post simply stated the true accuracy potential of surplus military rifles, and pointed out for the benefit of inexperienced shooters that "Internet Commandos" often make exaggerated claims, and so not to feel discouraged when they can't achieve the same.

You may have noticed that the succeeding four pages proved the point perfectly: We've had claims about minute-of-angle accuracy, even 3/4 M.O.A. "with open sights", and even single-hole accuracy. Those are simply physically impossible with stock military rifles and standard ball ammo. You may also have noticed that, when asked for evidence, the people making those claims fall back on the usual defense of BS artists: Huffing and puffing about their "honor".

[rice paddy daddy]

The original post simply stated the true accuracy potential of surplus military rifles, and pointed out for the benefit of inexperienced shooters that "Internet Commandos" often make exaggerated claims, and so not to feel discouraged when they can't achieve the same.

+1.
A novice may feel he's such a bad shot (when in fact he's not ) that he gives up an enjoyable pastime. For most military rifles groups of 4" at 100 yards is the norm with military ball ammo. This is perfectly acceptable for a combat rifle. Under the stress and adreneline of combat even being able to hit an enemy would be difficult with a match grade weapon and match grade ammo.
I can hit a torso size target at 250 yards in the daylight if it's standing still and not shooting at me, and that's good enough for me.
In fact, I scored well enough with an M14 to earn Expert, but the best group I've ever achieved, with any weapon, was 1 & 1/4" at 100 yards with a scoped Savage 22 magnum bolt action.
So don't give up guys, enjoy the sport. Don't let the Chairborne Rangers discourage ya!

[ArmySGT.]

So....have we decided that military rifles have an acceptable level of accuracy or not?

The debate rages on....

Singly, or fired in volleys by large groups?

[rice paddy daddy]

Singly, or fired in volleys by large groups?
Hey Sarge, do they still make Beehive rounds for the 105's?:D

[ArmySGT.]

Hey Sarge, do they still make Beehive rounds for the 105's?:D

I can't honestly say, I was an MP, and a 105 was not on our MTOE.

Course I couldn't get Buckshot for my M203 either.

[jim]

Hey Sarge, do they still make Beehive rounds for the 105's?:D

Yes, and there is some in inventory. Whether we're still buying them or not I don't know. Nasty round that, in either of the 105's.

[STRIKER]

I've heard some pretty outrageous claims in my day and I agree that a sub MOA from a rest is hard to do w/ a stock battle rifle. Perhaps approaching the realm of improbability even in the best hands and w/ the benefit of a PERFECT production fluke.

I, however, know that I could do it w/ a little more practice. Just today I shot a 9 shot string w/ only 1 flyer outside of 1 MOA. Breathing disipline is the key.

Tomorrow, I am going to try it again except I'm going to back up to 2' and see what my 870 can do. Remember, BREATHE.....

[rice paddy daddy]

I, however, know that I could do it w/ a little more practice. Just today I shot a 9 shot string w/ only 1 flyer outside of 1 MOA. Breathing disipline is the key.

Tomorrow, I am going to try it again except I'm going to back up to 2' and see what my 870 can do. Remember, BREATHE.....
Yeah, baby! That's what I'm talkin' about! :D

[Rick]

Put a slug in that bad boy; that'll reduce the group size.

[longshot]

The original post simply stated the true accuracy potential of surplus military rifles, and pointed out for the benefit of inexperienced shooters that "Internet Commandos" often make exaggerated claims, and so not to feel discouraged when they can't achieve the same.

You may have noticed that the succeeding four pages proved the point perfectly: We've had claims about minute-of-angle accuracy, even 3/4 M.O.A. "with open sights", and even single-hole accuracy. Those are simply physically impossible with stock military rifles and standard ball ammo. You may also have noticed that, when asked for evidence, the people making those claims fall back on the usual defense of BS artists: Huffing and puffing about their "honor".

well since that last paragraph was a shot directed at me, i realize that trying to engage in mature discourse with you is impossible i will retire the field to you as the immature seem to rule the day.

[Pitdog]

It was in my direction too there Longshot. The fact that I am in posession of an anomolie is obviously just too much for some to accept based on their claims of 'knowing rifles.' Fine. It isn't as though this has completely ended, even though it needs to. However having made my living 'knowing rifles' has taught me that there are those examples out there, as well as luck and perfect conditions, to make groups of an inch or less possible. Maybe 'I' am an anomolie, I don't know. I can't find anymore of the ammo I shot like that, I blasted a lot of it up playing around years ago, and there is nothing matching it on Gunbroker. I will look some more, we shall see.

[Mad_Professor]

No, but since most of us can't afford an M16, it's commercial equivalent is close enough. The wager stands for AR's and M1A's, as long as they haven't been modified with glass bedding, trigger work, etc.



Any of those are fine.



Actually, no. They have been extensively modified.



Of course not. But I know rifles.



They can happen, like the proverbial monkey writing War and Peace if it sits at a typewriter long enough. But the wager doesn't allow someone to shoot a hundred groups and then pick the best one. The odds against someone being that lucky are so small that I'm willing to discount them.



Infantry officer, then fighter pilot, then adversary pilot.

How about the Whitworth ML???

They still use those in 1000 meter (no typo one thousand meters) competition, with open sights. Want to put you AR15 any puny 55gr bullet up against that?

[Pitdog]

BTW, YES, hunting is a LOT more to me than just getting to kill something exotic to my area. It is all about the experience, the family, the times....... if I kill one fine, if not, fine.

The yankee statment was not a snesitive remark, it was stating a fact. It's almost like the subject of 'race' no one wants to touch it. Northerners and southerners are different. We eat biscuits, you all eat english muffins, so forth and so on.

[Oblio13]

... i realize that trying to engage in mature discourse with you is impossible ....

... you may be a Marine you may not, if so did you shoot a mop in the corps or some such? i have known and served with Marines on training and operations, i have to wonder where you would fit with those fine men and women.... ive proven my honor and my accuracy where it counts, in the field, in the woods, and places you've probably only read about in soldier of fortune or national geographic...

That was your idea of "mature discourse"?

[Oblio13]

How about the Whitworth ML???...

Never seen one, but if you have a standard issue rifle and ammo, bring them along and I'll give you the same wager as for ball ammo. You might even have a chance of winning with that one.


They still use those in 1000 meter (no typo one thousand meters) competition, with open sights....

I just did some Googling, and couldn't find any pics of competitors using open sights. They all had tang-mounted peeps.

B... The yankee statment was not a snesitive remark, it was stating a fact. It's almost like the subject of 'race' no one wants to touch it...

I live in New Hampshire now, but I'm from South Carolina. It was a nice try, though. ;)

[nhlivefreeordie]

The yankee statment was not a snesitive remark, it was stating a fact. It's almost like the subject of 'race' no one wants to touch it. Northerners and southerners are different. We eat biscuits, you all eat english muffins, so forth and so on.

What fact?? Why is it, Northerners think of you folks as Americans first, we usually don't go around calling folks rebels, but for some reason, any cross words from southerners directed at northerners ends with ...yankee!!...before you say anything, I was married to a girl from Georgia, and spent time amongst the family and friends, I know how ya'll talk....
You can keep thinking we are somehow different, I don't think so, but that doesn't change the fact that the south lost the war, get over it, we may have to fight it ( or something like it again ) and this time it will be different, with different allies, don't start segregating yourself from everyone, you will need us.

[rice paddy daddy]

With all due respect, sir, there are Northerners and there are Yankees. There is a big difference as any Southerner knows.
American by birth, Southron by the Grace of God.:)

[Oblio13]

Off-topic, but since you brought it up:

I was born in South Carolina, and lived in North Carolina, Virginia, and Florida. I enjoyed them all while I was there. But when I travel in the south now, the negative aspects of it tend to stand out. Obesity, ignorance, poor education, trailer parks, religious zealotry, litter.

I'm a transplant to New England now. It has a lot going for it. People tend to value education, have good work ethics, and be reserved. I'm even learning to enjoy winters. Sort of. :eek:

[nhlivefreeordie]

With all due respect, sir, there are Northerners and there are Yankees. There is a big difference as any Southerner knows.


As with any group, you are right, my point was, that without any knowledge, we were Yankees to Pitdog, I saw that a lot when with the family, if someone said something on television, the first remark was ...damn yankee....
I think the south is awesome, agree with what they were trying to do in the Civil War ( States Rights ) but don't take too kindly to the derogatory labels thrown about, just because you are a sore loser. No matter how much some southerners are angry at the outcome, it is history, you can't change it, the future is another matter, and you are going to need us like minded northerners to succeed. People that share the same ideals, ( as I believe MOST folks here do ) had better learn to bond together. The powers that be keep us fighting over trivial matters so that we don't have time to watch what they are doing.

[jim]

As with any group, you are right, my point was, that without any knowledge, we were Yankees to Pitdog, I saw that a lot when with the family, if someone said something on television, the first remark was ...damn yankee....
I think the south is awesome, agree with what they were trying to do in the Civil War ( States Rights ) but don't take too kindly to the derogatory labels thrown about, just because you are a sore loser. No matter how much some southerners are angry at the outcome, it is history, you can't change it, the future is another matter, and you are going to need us like minded northerners to succeed. People that share the same ideals, ( as I believe MOST folks here do ) had better learn to bond together. The powers that be keep us fighting over trivial matters so that we don't have time to watch what they are doing.

With all due respect, the sympathetic northerners (Copperheads I believe they were called) were of little to no effect in the outcome of The War of Northern Aggression. Not their fault nor yours. I seriously doubt the South can ever do something like that again. Far too many transplants down here now, end of story.

Norhterners and Southerners are a great deal different from each other. What little ignorance is in the South, is public schoolm (another Northern invention) initiated, codified, and enforced. Before anyone starts speaking to us of our supposed ignorance they should first attempt to do some of the small town cross word puzzles we have down here with a ball point pen like many of us do. To many of us, the NY Times X-word is not all that difficult.

We do get lectured to all the time by ignorant pompous Northerners and frankly, we're a bit tired of it. We might call you yankees, but you call us Rednecks, as what amounts to a racial slur. But that's ok for some reason.

jim

[jim]

Off-topic, but since you brought it up:

I was born in South Carolina, and lived in North Carolina, Virginia, and Florida. I enjoyed them all while I was there. But when I travel in the south now, the negative aspects of it tend to stand out. Obesity, ignorance, poor education, trailer parks, religious zealotry, litter.

I'm a transplant to New England now. It has a lot going for it. People tend to value education, have good work ethics, and be reserved. I'm even learning to enjoy winters. Sort of. :eek:


All the result of snowbirds migrating to the South. You're blaming the victims, not the perps.

jim

[jim]

"I just did some Googling, and couldn't find any pics of competitors using open sights. They all had tang-mounted peeps."

I could be wrong, but I think they came with that type of sight. Every one I've ever seen, even those in stores, had them.

jim

[Oblio13]

I could be wrong, but I think they came with that type of sight. Every one I've ever seen, even those in stores, had them.


Came with what type of sight?

Another quick Google search seems to indicate that those issued to the military had open sights, and that match models were made with peep sights that were of course more precise, but too delicate for military service.

[nhlivefreeordie]

Norhterners and Southerners are a great deal different from each other. What little ignorance is in the South, is public schoolm (another Northern invention) initiated, codified, and enforced. Before anyone starts speaking to us of our supposed ignorance they should first attempt to do some of the small town cross word puzzles we have down here with a ball point pen like many of us do. To many of us, the NY Times X-word is not all that difficult.

I don't think I said you were ignorant, quite the opposite. I also think you can quit taking credit for common sense, a lot of us from the north possess it as well.


We do get lectured to all the time by ignorant pompous Northerners and frankly, we're a bit tired of it. We might call you yankees, but you call us Rednecks, as what amounts to a racial slur. But that's ok for some reason.

jim

You made my point here, those of us who share these ideals who live in the north get called rednecks too, it ISN'T geographical, ELITISTS are our enemy, both mine and yours, the things we hold dear are of no importance to elitists. Forget the north/south thing, we are at war with elitists, you and I share more in common than either of us do with them. As long as that manufactured hatred exists, we will never join together against them, and they are counting on it....

[rice paddy daddy]

Speaking of north and south, didja ever notice that Florida is the only state where the further south you go, the more north you get? :D
(I figure since we have already experienced thread drift I'd throw that one in)

[nhlivefreeordie]

Speaking of north and south, didja ever notice that Florida is the only state where the further south you go, the more north you get? :D
(I figure since we have already experienced thread drift I'd throw that one in)

:D Pretty funny...and true.

Sorry for the drift, it is so important to band together and bury the old hatred so that the good people can take back control of the direction of our country.

[jim]

Came with what type of sight?

Another quick Google search seems to indicate that those issued to the military had open sights, and that match models were made with peep sights that were of course more precise, but too delicate for military service.

Tang-mounted peeps. However, that is reproduction models, and the only photo I ever saw of one (Dixie Gunworks) was a reproduction.

[Pitdog]

I'm not a sore loser.
Infact I'm not a loser at all, AS the fact is, I haven't had my go at it yet! The south lost for a comulative number of reasons, shiite happens. It is truly no longer a north south things as I saw rednecks on a trip to Buffalo NY, pulling a car with a chain attached to a truck down a city street wearing a chewing tobacco hats and flannel shirts. Took me back to the trailor park. Met rednecks up in Cornland, IA/MN border, quite fascinating.
Regionally, there is correct assumption that the south is ignorant, obese, uneducated. It's true. I hold myself above all of those negative labels and am often asked by my the locals 'Where are you from?' because I don't slur my speech and butcher English. My Great Grandmother was a school teacher and one of the first women of the region to go to a college, english was emphasized and it has passed on through the generations.
I was in Orlando, talking to a sassy waitress that didn't have a trace of southern accent and when I asked her where she was from, her reply was 'Born and Raised in Miami.'
No Shiite! Yes FL was invaded and continues to be occupied by 'yankees'. One of my better friends and gunsmithing friends is a Jersey yankee who went to FL and then moved back up this way.
I love how the point that northerners and southerners aren't different, then all the differences are quickly pointed out!
Truth is I am in love with the north woods, I hate the heat, and the bugs and snakes, and flat massive expanses of pine trees and sand. No thanks. Were it not for being in the mountains here I would be gone in a heart beat.
Besides Southerners and Northerners being different, Westerners are again different from either north or south. They are hard, practical, intelligent and polite, and respect privacy.
Of course there are regional differences, it is simple fact. Do we share common needs and have common rights? Yes. Absolutely without question. I do not discriminate based on regionality, but if I use the term 'yankee' too loosely for you, sounds like a guilty conscience to me!
Texans are sub-category of Westerner I might add. Amazing creatures!

[Pitdog]

Californians are NOT westerners on average! Forgot that one too, lived there for 4 years, nothing like anything I have ever seen before.

[nhlivefreeordie]

I'm not a sore loser.
but if I use the term 'yankee' too loosely for you, sounds like a guilty conscience to me!


I have nothing to be guilty about. I am not a history revisionist, I am born and raised Northerner, ( if region designation is necessary for you ) I choose to think of all of us as Americans. But history is what happened, the South lost, and it had lost before the war even started, do I wish things had turned out differently, ..yep, but I can still admire folks who fought for the North, as well as a few of the Confederate figures, it was a remarkable time in our history.
Lastly, you can use any term you wish to describe us, but that is exactly what the Elites want. It keeps us like minded folks from focusing on the ideals that we have in common.

[Mad_Professor]

Came with what type of sight?

Another quick Google search seems to indicate that those issued to the military had open sights, and that match models were made with peep sights that were of course more precise, but too delicate for military service.

I've never seen a Garand with a open sight either, all had peeps.

Seems you are afraid 160 year old technology, peep sights (2000 years old really, Romans crossbows had peeps ...), will outshoot your non-military AR15.

[rice paddy daddy]

Well, we could stop the nit picking by simply calling them iron sights.
Latest issue if Rifle magazine has an article by Mike Venturino on his two 03A3's, one Remington and one Smith Corona, firing (from the bench) a variety of handloads and factory loads. Groups (100 yds) ranged from 1.88" to 3.25". Lake City M2 Ball (military issue) obtained from CMP gave 3.5" groups.

[rice paddy daddy]

Regionally, there is correct assumption that the south is ignorant, obese, uneducated. It's true.
Mighty presumptuous of ya there, bucko.

[Pathfinder]

You know if I wanted to hear this kind of bickering I would've signed up over at AR15.com.


Oblio13, if you are so inclined, look up a No4 Mk1 made by Savage that came with Parker Hale target sites. These ARE military issue.

The whole thing comes down to the point of if a military rifle will shoot 1MOA. Thats not what they were designed for, they were made to shoot people, not paper.


Are there miltary rifles out there that "could" do this? Probably. The 6.5 Swede or the K31 Swiss would be your best candidates for it.

Now if the guy says he can, can you disprove him? No? Then shut the hell up and accept the fact the guy might have something that can outshoot you.

That being said, from now on I will keep my comments to myself and just do what I have been doing here for a year. Read the threads.

[Oblio13]

I've never seen a Garand with a open sight either, all had peeps.

Garands do have peep sights. I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

Seems you are afraid 160 year old technology, peep sights (2000 years old really, Romans crossbows had peeps ...), will outshoot your non-military AR15.

Now you REALLY have me confused. I've made no claims whatsoever about any of my AR's, or about my shooting abilities. The wager I've offered doesn't involve me shooting at all.

[Oblio13]

... look up a No4 Mk1 made by Savage that came with Parker Hale target sites. These ARE military issue....

Like I keep saying, if it's standard issue, I'll take the bet.


The whole thing comes down to the point of if a military rifle will shoot 1MOA. Thats not what they were designed for, they were made to shoot people, not paper.

Bingo. They weren't designed for it, and they won't do it. That's been the point of this whole thread.


Are there miltary rifles out there that "could" do this? Probably.

Show me and collect $100.


Now if the guy says he can, can you disprove him? No? ...

You can't prove that I didn't ride a unicorn over a rainbow. But it would be reasonable for you to say "Show me" if I made such an impossible claim.

... shut the hell up and accept the fact the guy might have something that can outshoot you...

Lot's of people have lots of things that can outshoot me and mine. Either you didn't read the thread before you posted, or you have very poor reading comprehension.

[Pitdog]

RPD, I hate it, but it isn;t presumptuous. Not here and not in Southern WV or NC. All the places I frequent here in the Appalachians. Mountain Dew is the drink of choice, and refined sugar filled snacks and highly refined high fructose corn syrup containing foods are the primary diet of the people that are in general ignorant. Notice I did not say stupid, but ignorant, and often proud of it as well. 'Teacher never taught me nuthin.' 'Gawin' to school never made me richer.' 'I learned what I needed to learn in the holler.' All things I have heard out of people's mouths in this region of the south. I hate it like crazy, but it is what it is, I guess it is a mentality. Like living off of the system, and NOT going to school more than is necessary. I'm sure it is ultimately a nationwide problem, just more prevalent in other areas, and very rampant in this one. I certainly do not mean that ALL southerners are ignorant 'rednecks' or 'welfare white trash' but sterotypes are always set in some truth.

I love my home and my heritage, but we take the good with bad and vice versa. I point out truths and make statements that I probably shouldn't, but I have a problem with inner dialogue that costs me much, but it is me.

Now, back to military rifles. I as trying to find some information on them, I read about them in a magazine once, but there was a small association of 'competitors' that formed a club based on shooting unmodified WW1/WW2 military rifles. Anyone heard of them? Seemed like they were in out in OK and started there, got some coverage in a magazine, and got bigger with their recognition. Dam it, it's been a while, maybe 10 years ago? I remember they published information on their groups, rifles, and listed their most successful rifles VS the least. No surprise that the Carcano scored LOW, as well as later war Arisakas, but the Garand, 1903, KAR 98 AND 6.5 Swede were at the top. At that time the Swiss rifles were not being imported and they were not available, but I'd be willing to bet they would be top competitors. Anyone shot Krags much? Not had the opportunity to, but love the .30-40.

[jim]

Pit

Didn't Norma load tons of milspec ammo for the Swedes? They aren't noted for cutting corners on anything, so without further "proof" I'd imagine that their standard SP loads for the 6.5 Swede would be very close to milspec. Always lot to lot variations of course.

Any opinions on that?

jim

[Pitdog]

I haven't looked on Gunbroker since the end of last week. The 'enigneer' is off indefinetly and work is a shiite storm, almost literally. I have had crazy stuff dumped on me here lately and am NOT looking to 0500 tomorrow, 'nother powder run, go to machine shop, get to work, it never ends.

ANYway LOL. Found some FMJ stuff but no idea where it came from or if it was even really Swede? I was sure I had found some in the abyss that is my basement, but upon measuring OAL and cosulting cartridge prints, it was Jap. It looked 'off' but I was being hopeful.

The GOOD news is I got my stock blank over the weekend for MY Swede build that will be MINE. This is a GREAT piece of wood, and I'm looking forward to getting started on it, but then I may change my mind. I want a Mannlicher stock, and this blank just isn't long enough for it. We shall see. Once boys are all grown up enough to not be stupid enough to sell, ALL other rifles are going to them, I want 2 NICE DONE RIGHT sporters in 8mm, and 6.5 Swede for me to keep and hunt with until they launch the flaming arrows into my boat.

[Oblio13]

Stumbled across a fellow who tested the accuracy of a variety of military ammo. He used scoped target rifles, not stock military rifles, but it's still very pertinent to this thread. Anyway, here are the links:

http://WWW.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu31.htm

http://WWW.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu8.htm

http://WWW.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu31.htm


He used his handloads as controls, and consistently clover-leafed all those groups.

NONE of the military ammo shot M.O.A., even in those rifles.

The first two conclusions in his summary were:



1. Military ammo isn't as accurate as many believe.

2. Anyone that says they routinely shoot sub-MOA groups with iron sights and military ammo has a problem with truthfulness.

[Boris859]

http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

go there read that whole thing,,it's good for laugh it is pretty darn funny :D

[nhlivefreeordie]

I haven't looked on Gunbroker since the end of last week. The 'enigneer' is off indefinetly and work is a shiite storm, almost literally. I have had crazy stuff dumped on me here lately and am NOT looking to 0500 tomorrow, 'nother powder run, go to machine shop, get to work, it never ends.

ANYway LOL. Found some FMJ stuff but no idea where it came from or if it was even really Swede? I was sure I had found some in the abyss that is my basement, but upon measuring OAL and cosulting cartridge prints, it was Jap. It looked 'off' but I was being hopeful.

The GOOD news is I got my stock blank over the weekend for MY Swede build that will be MINE. This is a GREAT piece of wood, and I'm looking forward to getting started on it, but then I may change my mind. I want a Mannlicher stock, and this blank just isn't long enough for it. We shall see. Once boys are all grown up enough to not be stupid enough to sell, ALL other rifles are going to them, I want 2 NICE DONE RIGHT sporters in 8mm, and 6.5 Swede for me to keep and hunt with until they launch the flaming arrows into my boat.

I was at a flea market/livestock auction today, a guy there had several packages of 6.5 Swede, $11.95 for 20 rounds.

[MissouriFree]

http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

go there read that whole thing,,it's good for laugh it is pretty darn funny :D

That is great..luckily I cover my keyboard at the beginning..

thanks

mo

[Pitdog]

Thanks NH. There is Swede ammo galore out there, I have handloads, PMC, Federal, and several others. But none of it is the military ball contract ammo that I used to shoot that 'performed SO well.' I can't even find military FMJ ammo at all. Still looking, maybe I can make it to the gunshow this week. All I can do is try!

[Rick]

I loved the mall ninja post. Where is Gunkid when you really need him?

[nhlivefreeordie]

Thanks NH. There is Swede ammo galore out there, I have handloads, PMC, Federal, and several others. But none of it is the military ball contract ammo that I used to shoot that 'performed SO well.' I can't even find military FMJ ammo at all. Still looking, maybe I can make it to the gunshow this week. All I can do is try!

I usually go to the auction every week, some of what he had there was FMJ, I didn't look real close, I will check it out better next week to see what it is exactly.

[rice paddy daddy]

I loved the mall ninja post. Where is Gunkid when you really need him?
I think Gunkid's access to a computer has been restricted.:D
Oh, you younger guys don't know what ya missed!:lol:

[NotSoFast]

The thing is that military rifles don't HAVE to be competition accurate, only battle accurate. There is a difference.

This is taken from http://www.michiganmilitia.com/budget/PMSR.htm

"In standard military trim these weapons are capable of acceptable battlefield accuracy (approx 3-4 inch 5-shot groups at 100 yards, rested) if you do your part, the barrel is good-very good, and quality ammo is used. Again, this is battle accuracy."

Of course as the range lengthens, one would want a more accurate rifle to have the same effect, but how many are going to be looking at 600 yd. shots all the time?

[rice paddy daddy]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: combat ain't anything like a day at the range. Minute of angle don't mean squat when the *stuff* gets deep.
Military rifles are not built for the Camp Perry National Matches, they are built to hopefully enable a soldier to kill his enemy in snow, mud, monsoons, etc. Close tolerances essential for accuracy are a distinct liability in the real world of infantry operations.
That's why I always laugh at the guys who claim, for example, miniscule groups at 600 yards with an AR15.

[snake]

What ever it takes to get the job done. Mine will do it....that's what counts to me.

[Rick]

GK's bound to be getting out soon. He wasn't quite as whacked out as the Mall Ninja, but close.

As I recollect GunKid's claim to fame was that after TEOTWAWKI he would travel the hinterlands with a silenced M-4, an armored wheelbarrow, and a P-32 that he could draw and fire in 0.001 nanoseconds, living off of the proceeds of us ignorant sheeple.

GK was a prolific poster to gun/survival themed boards. He had some good ideas, but some were not quite so stellar. Most likely if a person were going to try living out of a backpack and a wheelbarrow, traveling around murdering innocent farmers for their canned goods, somebody would hang him in about a week, or blast him into kingdom come with a double barrel 12 gauge.

Still, to give the man his due, once you got done laughing and wiping the coffee off of your keyboard, he did make you consider some opsec aspects of how to handle roving rouge shooters.

[longshot]

GK's bound to be getting out soon. He wasn't quite as whacked out as the Mall Ninja, but close.

As I recollect GunKid's claim to fame was that after TEOTWAWKI he would travel the hinterlands with a silenced M-4, an armored wheelbarrow, and a P-32 that he could draw and fire in 0.001 nanoseconds, living off of the proceeds of us ignorant sheeple.

GK was a prolific poster to gun/survival themed boards. He had some good ideas, but some were not quite so stellar. Most likely if a person were going to try living out of a backpack and a wheelbarrow, traveling around murdering innocent farmers for their canned goods, somebody would hang him in about a week, or blast him into kingdom come with a double barrel 12 gauge.

Still, to give the man his due, once you got done laughing and wiping the coffee off of your keyboard, he did make you consider some opsec aspects of how to handle roving rouge shooters.

dont forget the de-barked Chihuahua. God i hope he isnt allowed to get near a computer again.

dean

[ArmySGT.]

As I recollect GunKid's claim to fame was that after TEOTWAWKI he would travel the hinterlands with a silenced M-4, an armored wheelbarrow, and a P-32 that he could draw and fire in 0.001 nanoseconds, living off of the proceeds of us ignorant sheeple.

A silenced AR with a ciener .22 conversion, an armored wheel barrow, and a debarked chihuahua.

The Chi rat would warn him of ambushed, then he would tip his armored wheelbarrow up and take cover behind that. He would ambush anybody with his silenced .22 AR and liberate their stuff.

He went to prison for being a felon in possession of firearms. Don't think his time is up yet.

[Pitdog]

The more I read the articles regarding the posts of links to 'The Box of Truth' the more I decided I was not at all satisfied with the findings of these articles for a few reasons.

http://www.guncentral.net/Articles/SAAMIvsNATO.html

This article explains the difference between the 5.56 and .223 as well as the 7.62 and the .308, which of course is going to play a role in the accuracy of the rifles.

So researching the DPMS Sweet 16 http://www.proguns.com/dpmsarms-bullsweet16.asp
we find it is indeed advertised as being chambered in .223 and not specifically as a 5.56, or having a Wylde chamber, so one can only assume the rifle is NOT going to shoot ammo not intended for use in it very well. Especially when pressures are spiking and wreaking havoc with speeds. This article proves undoubtedly that yes military ammo does shoot worse than his finely tuned handloads IN HIS rifle, and that HIS RIFLE shoots HIS finely tuned handloads very well.
Although a few of the varieties of military 5.56 DID indeed shoot pretty well, despite the claims of 'it CAN'T' shoot well, 'it shouldn't shoot well' so on and so forth.

Along to the Accuracy International. Consulting their own website with regards to the model rifle used in the test of 7.62x51, we find that the rifle is advertised as being chambered in .308 Winchester.

http://www.accuracyinternational.com/ae_series.php

Here we take a rifle that is chambered in .308 winchester, and I'm sure we are safe in assuming it has a match chamber specifically suited for match bullets in the 168 grain range, rifled for said bullets as well. Then the author proceeded to stuff military ammo in it that is NOT the correct cartridge and then say 'Well it shoots poorly.'

Never saw that coming. Again, we proved HIS rifle did NOT shoot military ammo well, but HIS rifle shot HIS hand loads VERY well. OK.
Again, everything is against it working well, it almost set up to fail. The most fair test would be to check and see if 154 Gr 7.62x51 mm NATO spec ammunition shoots well in a rifle chambered for 7.62x51 NATO. Same with the 5.56.
This gentleman did answer the question posed, but no one should be shocked by the results, and they do not really pertain to the original point of the post as they are NOT stock military rifles and should NOT be shooting stock military ammunition.

I know this is only further fueling the fire and I am but opening up for further strife, but to be fair...............

[Oblio13]

... a few of the varieties of military 5.56 DID indeed shoot pretty well, despite the claims of 'it CAN'T' shoot well, 'it shouldn't shoot well' so on and so forth....

No they didn't. Those groups would have been wonderful if they'd come out of a stock service rifle, but from a target rifle they're awful.

If not even bench rest rifles will shoot military ammo well, then service rifles with loose tolerances, oversized chambers, mass-produced barrels and heavy two-stage triggers sure aren't going to.

Accuracy is not the first priority of militaries. Not for their rifles, and not for their ammunition. Things that aren't conducive to accuracy, like reliability and cheap production costs, are more important. That's why Lake City, our army's ammunition plant, produces "ball" ammo for standard issue, and "match" ammo for competitions and snipers.

Despite the claims of internet commandos everywhere, the odds of an unmodified service rifle that will shoot one MOA groups with standard issue ammo are, let's see ... bear with me, I wasn't a math major ... carry the one... this is just an approximation, you understand... about...
ZERO.

You won't find anyone winning IDPA, IPSC, High-Power Rifle, Bullseye Pistol, Service Rifle, Small-Bore, or any other matches with cheap/ball ammo. The physics just aren't there.

It's not what you want to believe, but, geez, take the bet I keep offering you already. Show us different and make a lot of money.


(Interesting aside: I was checking the zero of my favorite deer rifle (Sako .308, 20" barrel) yesterday. 100 yards, benched, with surplus Radway Green (British army issue), the best I could do is about 3 1/2-inch groups. Lake City match does this:

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c116/Oblio13/IMG_2107.jpg


(The target is upside-down in the photo. The first group was in the bull. I'm going out west, so I raised it 2 1/2 inches and fired the second group.)

[rice paddy daddy]

I was re-reading an article by Mike Venturino on the M1903-A3 (AKA "Springfield") last nite and he pointed out the rear peep sight on said rifle was adjustable for windage but ONE click shifted POI four MOA!!! Adequite to hit an enemy if he's holding still but hardly condusive to match accuracy.

[longshot]

http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

go there read that whole thing,,it's good for laugh it is pretty darn funny :D

oh man that was so funny it was sad.

thanks, i needed a laugh

dean

[DiggerDirect]

I still have my first rifle, my Dad give to me when I was 15, an old 7.7 jap peep sighted bolt action. I've probably shot 1000 rounds thru it in the 35 years I've had it, She aint no match rifle an I cant land the bullets on top of each other even at 100 yards, but I can hit a pie plate pretty regular at 150 yards while standing up, shoot the center target of a tire bouncing down the hill at 50 yards regularly, (one of our favorites during our 'get togethers') and most always hold my own against the boys with their fancy store bought guns, scopes or not, beat them hands down most times at our shoots. (held down in the old gravel pit) But when we get to the range I cant seem to beat them where we are all benched up & sand bagged down steady. We call that 'city shooting' around here and dont have much call for it.

So my answer to the original question, How accurate are military rifles? would be 'they'll do' :)

[poacher]

AHHHHHH Gunnut er gunkid. He was good for a laugh or two, and the worst part about it was he seemed to have a little following. Lord only knows who woulda won if two gunkid enthusiasts met. Both sniping at the other hearing the 22 rounds ringing off of their wheelbarrows. By the end of the day I would imagine both would be deaf.
Now here's a true fact about gunnut. He actually was a great shot. He went to IPSC world championship and did shoot in it. Then somewhere along the way out of a full deck of cards he lost all but two and they were the jokers. He's now back in jail doing fed time for possession of guns,ammo and other parts. No I don't think he will be out any time soon and I would imagine that when he gets out he will be beyond old and grey.

Sorry to hijack the thread.

Take care Be safe Poacher
www.handloadersbench.com (http://www.handloadersbench.com)

[Rick]

I think GK's basic premise that, for a lone gunman on the move living off the land and the proceeds of others, a 5.56 AR with a silencer and a .22 conversion kit makes a certain amount of sense. Keeping relatively quiet, more ammo/lb, and .22LR compatibility are all desirable when you are sneaking and peeking around the countryside.

But, I just don't think a person would last long living out of a backpack in a civil collapse scenario. It could happen, but the odds of survivability would go way down compared with hunkering down with a small, well prepared group.

I'm more of a heavy metal kind of guy: .308 over 5.56, and .45 over 9mm given my druthers. If need be I could lighten up as the situation requires.

[Pitdog]

http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=49&order=desc&page=3
http://www.chuckhawks.com/swedish_mauser.htm


Interesting links.

That Swede @ 50 yards was piling them up. With military ammo ball ammo.

[Pitdog]

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=941410&page=1


oops. sorry! this is the correct one with pics. VERY nice piece.

[Oblio13]

Interesting links.

That Swede @ 50 yards was piling them up. With military ammo ball ammo.


Outstanding 50-yard groups for that sort of rifle and ammo. Still not anywhere near 1 MOA, though.

Especially considering that 1 MOA isn't twice as difficult to achieve as 2 MOA, it's about an order of magnitude more difficult.

[Pitdog]

Well, this is obviously not going to win your 100 dollars and wasn't meant to. However, 1 inch @ 100 is moa, and judging by the groups out of that rifle, that wouldn't be particularily difficult much less out of the question totally.
Using the bullet as scale, since there wasn't a specific measurement, that is probably somewhere in the .625/.725 group measurement, as the diameter of the 6.5 is .264 which is of course .164 larger than a quarter of an inch, it makes it fairly easy to guess the approximate size of that second group. Maybe even tighter than that center to center and it was five rounds and not only 3.
And that isn't exactly 'outstanding for that sort of rifle' it is pretty much on par with the rifles the Swedes turned out, especially in that condition.

[hunter63]

Found this, good story, but didn't see the target:
http://www.heraldnews.com/news/local_news/x1312019183/TOP-SHOT-Westport-man-wins-national-shooting-match

[Pitdog]

Very cool Hunter. As soon as I get this picture posting thing down, I will have an interesting update to this post, it has of course to do with the M1A and the bottom line of this thread.

[Teg]

Very cool Hunter. As soon as I get this picture posting thing down, I will have an interesting update to this post, it has of course to do with the M1A and the bottom line of this thread.


Not sure if you were aware but you can load your photos onto a personal album here on the forum and it'll give you an easy to use code to post the photo in a thread.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/forum/vb/album.php

[Pitdog]

Here is pic 1, which is a view of my Polytech sitting on the sandbags @ the range I use for work.

[Pitdog]

This is a view of the range with relation to the targets, and a pic of the 50 yard target.

[Pitdog]

The rifle, rack grade Polytech China M 1A copy, shooting delinked Lake City 1987 7.62x51 FMJ NATO military surplus ammo. Nothing fancy, bare bones. No Scope, open sight. 100 yards.

[Pitdog]

I have got to get lighting correct to take some close ups of the targets, to show the real story, but it goes something like this. The plain piece of graph paper was stapled up and used as a dialing in target, once a good pic is available I will explain the shots in numerical order.
The two targets seen with the black squares in the center show my efforts 2 hours after the initial sight in and get eyes going. I laid the rifle aside and went through testing my work related rifles and then jumped back on the M1a to put it to the challenge. First round, second target went to left of bulls eye. The next three rounds printed an inch and a quarter or so low, and all three went into a half inch cluster. The third target was shot 45 minutes later, and the fouling/warmer was shot quarter inch off bullseye to left, and again, the next three dropped into a cluster about an inch and a half lower, but the targets are almost identical, except the spread opened up to about three quarters of an inch.
It took 15 minutes to shoot each group and I suffered an eye strain headache all night after this, which took place on Tuesday of this week. But, I DID prove THIS military rifle WILL shoot MILITARY ammunition UNDER 1 inch.

[Oblio13]

Found this, good story, but didn't see the target:
http://www.heraldnews.com/news/local_news/x1312019183/TOP-SHOT-Westport-man-wins-national-shooting-match

His scores are available here:

http://clubs.odcmp.com/cgi-bin/match...ation=EICRIFLE


... I DID prove THIS military rifle WILL shoot MILITARY ammunition UNDER 1 inch.

You've only made yet another internet claim, this time accompanied by a murky picture of a piece of graph paper with holes peppered all over it.

Now really prove it, and be the first to win my standing wager. ;)

Like I've posted several times already:

Bring any stock military rifle and any standard ball ammo. Bring all the witnesses you please. Take a fouling shot or two if you like. Whenever you're ready, fire five rounds for record. Under one MOA wins. We'll photograph and video the whole thing, and post it here and on my blog.

You already know where the range is. You already said you'll be in the neighborhood for a moose hunt anyway. Time to put your money where your mouth is.


(BTW, you're consistently saying "open sights" when you mean "iron sights". Your rifle has a peep sight, not open sights. Odd mistake for a supposed professional gunsmith to keep making.)

[jim]

"BTW, you're consistently saying "open sights" when you mean "iron sights". Your rifle has a peep sight, not open sights. Odd mistake for a supposed professional gunsmith to keep making."

A lot of people use that term, even military vets. It's quite common.

Looks to me like he did prove what his rifle would do.

jim

[Pitdog]

I knew the excitement would be too great for some. I still have to get the pics of the targets and break it down. I did however forget, and I went for 3 shot groups, and not five, although I'm not overly concerned. After T-Day I shall return to the range with Poly, and we will put her back on the bench. Not a problem.
This test is just the beginning of a multitude planned as we progress. A close friend has ordered a Swede off of gunbroker, because he wanted a replacement for the one he had, and he chose one with the armorer's indicator set at excellent for bore. He even found a source for the original ammo. So- some of you are probably not real enthusiastic about it- but there will be more photos and more tests, with the same rifle and more ammo, along with other rifles and other ammo.

[jim]

Don't tease us, I wanna see some groups, especially off the Swede!

jim

[Pathfinder]

Also Pitdog, let us know when he sends you the check.

Oblio, he proved it, are you going to keep up your end of the bargain? Or are you going to require a notary and a signed letter from the PTA chapter president etc etc ad nauseum....

Nice shootin there PD.

I have tryed to follow your advise from the chatroom over this, still trying to come to terms with it.

[rice paddy daddy]

"BTW, you're consistently saying "open sights" when you mean "iron sights". Your rifle has a peep sight, not open sights. Odd mistake for a supposed professional gunsmith to keep making."

A lot of people use that term, even military vets. It's quite common.

Looks to me like he did prove what his rifle would do.

jim
Even professional gun writers use the term.:D

[nhlivefreeordie]

I believe the original post said that the shoot had to happen in NH at Oblio's place, with witnesses. Since he is the one offering the prize money, I would think he gets to set the rules. Seeings as though Pitdog just blew the steps that must be taken off, and went about his own game with his own rules, it don't count. Anyone can set up some targets and take pictures, heck I could put 10 through the same bullet hole using Pitdogs tactics.
No, since Pitdog would be close enough to settle this the way it was presented, but chose to make his own rules, NOTHING has been proven....only that some folks don't comprehend rules very well, and are easily swayed.
You may be a heck of a shot Pitdog, but the way you did it wasn't the original deal. I am not saying YOU can't do it, just that it needs to be done as presented.

[rice paddy daddy]

I bet I can put all 5 shots thru one hole in the target too! With my 91/30 Mosin Nagant. Firing 1954 Bulgarian surplus ball. Of course, the target would be 10 feet from the muzzle and I'd be using a Lead Sled. Then I take a picture and post it, and since it's on the internet, it must be true, right?

[nhlivefreeordie]

I bet I can put all 5 shots thru one hole in the target too! With my 91/30 Mosin Nagant. Firing 1954 Bulgarian surplus ball. Of course, the target would be 10 feet from the muzzle and I'd be using a Lead Sled. Then I take a picture and post it, and since it's on the internet, it must be true, right?

We are on the same page RPD...:wink:

[Oblio13]

.... Looks to me like he did prove what his rifle would do...

If saying something on the internet is "proof", then I'm better looking than Brad Pitt and smarter than Steven Hawking.

Even professional gun writers use the term.("open sights" when referring to peep sights):D

Show me a professional gun writer who calls peep sights "open" sights. Are you confusing "open" sights with "iron" sights?


.... I still have to get the pics of the targets and break it down. I did however forget, and I went for 3 shot groups, and not five...

Well, we can look at your target as a five shot group. The first one was a fouling shot left of the bull. We'll throw that one out, of course. The next three were, according to you, "an inch and a quarter or so low, and all three went into a half inch cluster". (We'll disregard for the moment the extreme improbability of shooting even three-round 1/2 MOA groups with a Chinese copy of an M1A and cheap surplus delinked machine gun ammo.) Your next shot went a "quarter inch off bullseye to left". You're calling it a "fouling shot", but unless you cleaned your rifle between groups, it's not. Your next three "dropped into a (3/4") cluster about an inch and a half lower". If my math is right, that's at least a 2 1/4" group.

[Pitdog]

Here we have target 1 which was a simple piece of graph paper and a Shoot N C Dot stuck in the middle. These are the first rounds of the day, fired through the rifle, clean cold bore.

A was an initial fouling/warm up shot.

The rest are numbered, 4 being a called flyer.

As a Four shot group, the farthest distance between the center of two holes is 1.670 ( I measured with calipers, the ruler is to add scale beyond the quarter inch squares of the graph so the brats can't say 'The blocks were probably an inch square.') which are shot #3, and shot # 4/flyer.

The longest distance from shots 1,2,3 and 5 is .872 - 4 shots under an inch. Now I'm not boasting that this is THE target or THIS IS THE GROUP OF PROOF. This was the warm up target.

[Pitdog]

Forgot to include the ruler in the photo, sorry, so go ahead Brats.

This is target #2, shot two hours later, and yes- I did clean the barrel and made necessary adjustments to the sight, the load for that setting is completely different.

We have the cold bore fouling shot/ warm up shot 'A' top left quarter of the bullseye.

Then, as the practice sighter group suggested, the group shifted and we see 1,2,3 grouped nicely in a cluster that measures .625 center to center, #1 and #3.
I crapped my own pants, I didn't expect this to go this well.


Now on to target #3, after somewhere in the neighborhood of 45 , minutes to an hour and another cleaning. Back to the bench to nestle down in the sandbags.

This time, the cold bore/ fouling shot was just off left of bullseye, and then shooting for the 3 shot group began. #1 and 2 are piled right on top of each other, and three wandered a little down and to the left. Distance between #1 and #3 is .765.

Counting ALL rounds fired on the warm up target fouling, flyer and all the farthest spread of 6 rounds is 1.610, target #2 the farthest spread including the fouler is 1.850, and on target 3 farthest spread including fouler is 2.130.

AND ALL three of the targets were shot @ the 100 yard line of a 50 - 300 yard range, each distance measured with a laser range finder. Were I going to attempt fraud, especially in the case I were attempting to make the claim that I had 'won a bet' I think I'd done much better at the 20 yard line than I did in order to leave nothing to chance. I DID indeed go off and do 'my own thing' but I also followed the parameters of the challenge, I just wasn't willing to spend 3 to 400$ on a trip for the chance to make 100, what would my investment advisor say? Anyone who wants the right to call me a fraud or a liar will have to come here to shoot on my range to prove me that.
So in closing, until I can get back out and shoot a 5 shot group under the same parameters, with the same rifle, with the same ammo, have a great day and-

Oblio-stick to your guns that it is impossible and could never happen. I will rest easy knowing it is possible.

Jim and others, thanks for the support.

Nhlivefreeordie- the word of the day is goan, not in the dictionary, but it can be used in a sentence.

[Pitdog]

Sorry about the tilt, I didn't rotate properly.

[Teg]

Nice shooting.

[Oblio13]

... I will rest easy knowing it is possible...

Am I missing something? If you're being accurate (pardon the pun) about the range, rifle, ammo, etc. it's wonderful shooting. But I don't see a single five-shot group on any target that's less than 1 M.O.A.

[rice paddy daddy]

Show me a professional gun writer who calls peep sights "open" sights. Are you confusing "open" sights with "iron" sights?
Current issue of Outdoor Life, page 44, gun test of Marlin 1895 SBL, author John B. Snow describes the ghost ring rear/post front sights as "open sights". Twice, actually. :D

[nhlivefreeordie]

Am I missing something? If you're being accurate (pardon the pun) about the range, rifle, ammo, etc. it's wonderful shooting. But I don't see a single five-shot group on any target that's less than 1 M.O.A.

I didn't see it happen either.....I guess since photos and the internet were involved.....we have another internet commando....
The rules were clear in the beginning PitDog, you haven't followed the rules. The fact that you take a challenge and then decide how you are going to accomplish it, without following the rules is very telling....no credibility, I don't believe anything I don't witness myself.
As far as I am concerned, you haven't done anything until it is done as initially stated, if you could you would, you can't, so you take pictures and mark up graph paper, and everyone is just supposed to believe it? Sorry...it don't cut the mustard.

[Oblio13]

Current issue of Outdoor Life, page 44, gun test of Marlin 1895 SBL, author John B. Snow describes the ghost ring rear/post front sights as "open sights". Twice, actually. :D

I don't have that magazine, but I do have a dictionary: "Iron sights are broken into two basic categories that include most types. Open sights use a notch of some sort as the rear sight, while aperture sights use a circular hole."

[rice paddy daddy]

Yeah, whatever.:rolleyes:
You asked, you got an answer.

[Oblio13]

The internet commandos are in the gates, aaaaand THEY'RE OFF! Stinger takes an early lead, claiming to have seen same-hole groups! Pitdog passes him on the outside, saying he personally shoots 3/4" groups with open sights, although he's not sure what open sights are! He'd prove it if he could only find some ammo! Rice Paddy Daddy is wandering off-topic! LONGSHOT PASSES EVERYONE WITH AN ENFIELD THAT HE HEARD SHOOTS ZERO MINUTE-OF-ARC! But Pitdog is creeping back up on the rail with a Chinese knock-off and some de-linked machine gun ammo! He's still not sure what kind of sights it has! Mad Professor can't comprehend the thread topic! PITDOG IS PULLING AHEAD WITH PICS OF GRAPH PAPER! Jim and Pathfinder are out of their seats cheering! He must be winning if he posts pics of graph paper, no matter how large the groups are! It's Pitdog in the lead!

[rice paddy daddy]

Your sense of self importance is staggering.

[nhlivefreeordie]

Your sense of self importance is staggering.

I think his wit and intelligence makes him an obvious leader.

RPD, be careful about confusing self importance with confidence, the statement seemed rather obvious to me. Emotion isn't a tactical principle.

[MissouriFree]

I think his wit and intelligence makes him an obvious leader.

RPD, be careful about confusing self importance with confidence, the statement seemed rather obvious to me. Emotion isn't a tactical principle.

Not sure seems a little low on self esteem.

[rice paddy daddy]

I think his wit and intelligence makes him an obvious leader.


Surely you jest.

[Oblio13]

No matter if I am or am not any of the above: We still won't have posters in this thread who could break every service rifle record with untuned hand-me-downs or cheap Chinese copies thereof.

If I'm wrong, put your money where your mouth is and take my bet. :)

[rice paddy daddy]

No matter if I am or am not any of the above: We still won't have posters in this thread who could break every service rifle record with untuned hand-me-downs or cheap Chinese copies thereof.

If I'm wrong, put your money where your mouth is and take my bet. :)
I agree with you, but ya don't have to get all snotty and call me an internet commando.:)
I EARNED my camoflage, I didn't buy it at the gunstore.

[nhlivefreeordie]

Surely you jest.

Not at all, I like the spirit, I would think he would be a good leader.

[nhlivefreeordie]

I agree with you, but ya don't have to get all snotty and call me an internet commando.:)
I EARNED my camoflage, I didn't buy it at the gunstore.

I used the term last I believe, and in no way was it directed at you RPD. I know you earned your camo, and everyone is in your debt for your service. That doesn't entitle you to a pass on the self aggrandisement statement. Confidence is often belittled by those that don't have it.

[MissouriFree]

I used the term last I believe, and in no way was it directed at you RPD. I know you earned your camo, and everyone is in your debt for your service. That doesn't entitle you to a pass on the self aggrandisement statement. Confidence is often belittled by those that don't have it.

You were serious ?????

[Oblio13]

I agree with you, but ya don't have to get all snotty and call me an internet commando.:)
I EARNED my camoflage, I didn't buy it at the gunstore.

Nobody in the military every gave you a little ribbing? Besides, you aren't claiming to be a shooting god.

And did you forget about all the jabs you took at me in this thread? :0

(I earned mine, too, 20 years Marine infantry officer and fighter pilot.)

[Pitdog]

The very responses I expected from the very people I expected them from.

[jim]

One thing that I am reasonably sure of. He DOES sound like an officer, and I'd bet money he rarely, if ever, listened to his NCO's no matter how many times they proved themselves right and him wrong. We used to LOVE watching them in action or a reasonable facsimily thereof. {;^)

I wonder if he is one of the extremely few pilots that learned to navigate after a fashion?

jim

[Oblio13]

You sound like an under-achiever who resents success, Jim.

Well, after nine pages, we have quite a lot of internet-commando chest-thumping. We have juvenile attempts at insults. What we do not have are any sub-M.O.A. groups.

I think the point of the thread has been made. ;)

[rice paddy daddy]

Mike Venturino, in one of the gun mags I read, had a recent column on shooting groups. Versus marksmanship. He pointed out that groups don't kill deer, marksmanship does. Groups don't ring the steel gong, marksmanship does.
Made me feel better, anyway, cause I'm not much good at shooting groups but I can usually hit what I'm aiming at.

[Oblio13]

True enough. Groups are the only way to measure accuracy, though, which is the subject of the thread.

[jim]

You sound like an under-achiever who resents success, Jim.

Well, after nine pages, we have quite a lot of internet-commando chest-thumping. We have juvenile attempts at insults. What we do not have are any sub-M.O.A. groups.

I think the point of the thread has been made. ;)


I just love the way they prove me right every time.

[ArmySGT.]

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Makes%20me%20laugh/cryuw3.gif

[gunsmoke]

Here is an article which is highly relevent to the thread

http://www.castbullet.com/makeit/m38.htm


I am not the author nor do I know him but his experience is similar to mine which the condensed version of is "IT'S USUALLY DEPENDANT ON THE AMMO"

By that I mean that most rifles regarless of heritage can be made to shoot well if you'll take the time to develop or find the loads it likes best.

Junk ammo never shoots well in anything.......


I have found a variety of military type rifles that are extraordinarily good shooters as well as one memorable BRNO M98 from my teenage days that never threw a bullet in the same general direction twice.