perplexed

[bookwormom]

I do not have all too much experience with dogs. I know they have a social hierarchy and I am wondering. Our GP dog was a fine dog, doing her job, we love her.
then we inherited an older female dog. This dog wants to be the alpha. we used to feed all dogs at the same time down at the house. Husband sort of had a ritual which worked fine before the new dog came. then I noticed that Binki got skinnier and skinnier. I took her to the vet and there was nothing wrong. He gave me vitamins for her. Then I noticed that the new dog, which is about the size of a shelty, would growl at
Binky over her food bowl and Binky would give it up. so she was actually starving. we moved her up to the barn, and started a new routine, where she would get fed in the barn. so she gained weight and was fine. you can not get to the house or barn without going through a locked gate. the new dog is down at the house, she is not much use. one morning as I was milking Binky was really barking in the barn, like something is amiss. I rushed over and there was the new dog, growling at her again over the food and Big Binki backed away. (I guess she snuck in with my husband). The point is, since then, Binki has quit eating again and we are literally afraid she is going to die. she is skin and bones and stays mostly in her doghouse. she is only two and half years old. I can not see a reason why she would not eat. She seems depressed. Husband thinks I am nuts but it looks to me like the "alpha" forbid her to eat and she obeys. Am I nuts? I hate going to the Vet again, spending another 200 bucks just to be told there is really nothing wrong with her. What could it be?

[fnfredux]

Your dog is depressed, very sad and feels displaced.
YOU are the "alpha dog" you need to step in and do some correction. While I would not reccomend a "shock collar" for your dog that you have had from puppyhood, I don't think I would attempt to intercede with binki and the sheltie with anything else.
A dog WILL get sick and refuse to eat if it is unhappy.
Personally, I'd get rid of the trouble maker, that's the motto at fricknfarms, be good, be gone, and if you be sheeep or goat there is the be dinner option. Trouble makers come in all species, not just man.

[momma_to_seven_chi]

I breed chihuahuas. In the past I have had pekes, shih tzus and a few other small breed dogs. I have never bred any large dogs, but we have had them as pets over the years.
Dogs have a pack hierarchy just like hens have a pecking order. Size doesn't matter, it is all in the attitude. I had a 4lb pom who could beat down any lab or pyr on the farm. She ruled the roost. It was all in her attitude. And yes, if a dog is on the bottom of the pecking order, they may not eat just because the alpha female prevents it. I always feed my dogs separate if there is any problems with pack order. And I never keep dogs that don't get along well together. My little pom was sold as soon as she reached adulthood and the problem with her attitude started to show itself.
Your pyr is just in a beta position, and isn't eating. I would feed her separate for now. And I would actually rehome the other dog, but if you don't want to do that, then at least feed them separately.

[bookwormom]

We do feed them separately and it worked fine for a while. I am just so perplexed that after the new dog managed to get to the barn area and confronted Binki about the food, that she would stop eating again and suddenly act depressed again. I was really surprised when I heard her bark, like she was telling the other to leave her alone, but then she "followed orders". I would love to get rid of the other dog, if I could find a home. there are more dogs around here than you can shake a stick at. People drive out in the country and throw their unwanted dogs away. I got this dog because a friend set her house on fire and shot herself. she wrote me a letter to take her dog. That is how I got her. but I will show your reply to my husband. He thought my idea was nuts and I am glad I am on the right track. BTW, the new dog got fat as a pig as Binky got skinnier and skinnier. I have to keep Binky at the barn as she is a working dog and she loves the lambs and kids, also kittens, she was perfectly happy until the new dog snuck in that one time and told her off. Thanks for informing me, appreciate it.

[EarthMama]

Yes, Bookwormom, you are absolutely correct. In a grouping of dogs, there's going to be an alpha dog... and you, yourself, can not be it. ::) You can be the master and the owner over all the dogs but within the dog grouping itself, there's going to be a leader and then followers. That's it.

This dog you've inherited is food-protective. Whether it's alpha or not isn't the point. It probably had to fight for every morsel of food it got, before the dog came to you. Dogs who have had to fight for food don't all of a sudden realize they don't have to fight for it anymore. It's a survival of the fittest mentality and the poor animal has grown to embrace this as a survival tool.

It's been my experience that once a dog is food-protective, it will always be that way. You can't punish it out of the dog and you can't "alpha" it out of the dog. The only way to handle it is to feed the dogs separately now and make sure all the dogs get their share.

This dog, if it had been placed correctly, should have been placed as an only dog in the family. We had a rescue that could not be placed in a home with other dogs for this very reason. Once he got placed with a single gal, he was absolutely fine and lived to be a ripe old age before dying of cancer. He was king of the hill with his new "mommy". :) But with the previous family it was a nightmare because they had two other dogs.

If you decide to relocate this dog, please be careful doing so. It must be placed as an only dog and would probably be so much happier as such... an only dog with no small children in the household. Small children love to touch the doggie bowl and food-protective dogs don't appreciate it in the least. :-/

Take care.

Edited to say:

I have read more of your responses, Bookwormom, and it sounds like there's more going on than I just gathered in your first post. It does sound like the new dog is more than just food-protective (altho everything I've said in my previous post still stands)... it's trying to assert its dominance. No dog likes to be "last dog on the totem pole" so they all want to be alpha. Some dogs just make sure that they are. It's not their fault. It's instinct.

You sound like a real lover of animals. I am too, so we are kindred spirits. What I would do, if I were you, is try to relocate the dog. But I would not do it by myself. I would find a rescue group in your area who takes placing dogs seriously. Placing the right dog in the right home is an art form... a true science. There are people out there who do this as their vocation and life's calling. Go online and find a rescue group in your area who will take the dog and place it in the right surroundings where everyone can thrive.

Just as an added tip: A dog that is neutered/spayed and vet-examine and current on its shots is much easier to place and much easier to get accepted by a rescue group. Rescue groups are always short on money and if they have to put money into a dog before trying to place it, they will be that much more reluctant to take it. But if you can say that the dog is vetted and then tell the story behind you getting the dog, I'll bet they'll take the dog off your hands. Be sure to tell them everything so they know what they're dealing with. Honesty is always the best policy when doing this sort of thing.

Thanks for caring enough for all your dogs to make sure everybody is happy and safe. This dog you've inherited is a good dog. It's just in the wrong environment for its temperment and what life has thrown its way, to make it the way it is.

[fnfredux]

Trust me bookwormmom, you MUST be the "alpha dog".
I have raised dogs German Shorthaired Pointers, for over thirty years, I KNOW what I'm talking about. Right now I have eight dogs, and I AM THE ALPHA, that is how you keep order.
If you allow your dogs to sort things out and one becomes the "alpha" you will SOON be challenged. Sometimes people who don't have as much experience should defer to those that do.. Casear Millan Dog Whisperer

Cesar Millan teaches that, in order to properly fulfill both our dogs and ourselves, we each need to become our canine's calm-assertive pack leader. A dog that doesn't trust its human to be a good pack leader becomes unbalanced and often exhibits unwanted or anti-social behaviors.
http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/about/approach.php

and BELIEVE me, my dogs do view me as the ALPHA and I have GSP's that against all instincts, will HERD MY GOATS.
Best to learn from the experts and Caser Millan is recognized as the top expert.

AND, you CAN change any dog's behavior. It may take time and determination. It would need to be a powerful desire on my part as here animals all get along or hit the road. Of course mine are all trained to get those desired results.
Even goats need to know who is the most dominant. I have NEVER had a goat the butted ANYONE, or showed aggression to humans.
Of course as I always told the buyers of my pups when they asked about training..."first thing is you need to be smarter than the dog". Know whom to turn to for answers, check out the website. Dogs are a LOT more clever than most folks give them credit for.
People still don't believe I can use hunting dogs as herding dogs, it's just not possible in their minds...my dogs know better.
Take care of Binki. Oh, and my son has a Great Pyrennees about four months old, she is a very quiet dog and allows herself to be bullied by a 9month old retriever mix, did that is until the retriever mix pushed her too far, then she sent her yelping. Maybe Binki needs to just be pushed to that point.

[bookwormom]

:'( I think we are going to lose Binki. I am trying to find a home for Biscayne, but there are too many dogs around as is. It seems everybody has five dogs already and nobody wants or needs another one. Binki is definitely anorexic and depressed. I notice that Biscayne, though much smaller, will go up to the fence and growl at Binki. Binki rarely smiles anymore and she is getting weak.
okay, I checked Cesar Millan, , so I am to go for a walk for 45 minutes every day. this is a homestead and I do not go for walks with dogs. they are supposed to be working dogs and used to be just that. when I am out and they are with me they mind immediately, they walk behind me when we pass a certain house with unruly dogs and stay with me. When they are farther off and I call they come running. they used to stay with the goats and sheep all the time. I keep Biscayne and Binki separated at all times.
Biscayne goes up to the fence and growls at
Binki. Biscayne minds me perfectly. I used to spit on their food so they would think I a