breeding dogs for cash?

[Clarence]

Do any of you sell dogs. My Aunt sells long haired golden retrivers. She sells then for $800 a dog. She pays the vet $25 per puppy for shots and papers. and gives the profit from on of the puppies for the stud service. She always seems to be able to sell ever last dog. The las time that was 8 dogs. for a total profit of $5,425. of course that is not including what it takes to keep her dog year after year. This seems like a fairly good sideline.

I am thinking aobut getting in on this, she will give me one of her female puppies for free if I ask, and we do not live in the same area so we shouldn't be any competition for one another.

so my question for anyone that does this is whats the catch?

also is there a breed that sells better then others for a higher profit?

thanks for any info
Clarence

[candy]

Clarence golden retrievers and labs are the two most popular breed 's they sell well.

But not all area's of the country are willing to pay those big dollars for dogs.

Most area's have a trade paper or several trade papers where people list stuff like cars for sale, furniture , computers and dogs.

Pick one or two of those up and see what prices Golden retrievers are going for. Reg goldens go for about $250 a pup where I live and the vet charges much more for shots than what your aunt is paying even to a regular customer like me.
there is a difference in a long haired golden retriever but are you in one of the area's of the country where people will pay extra to get that rare breed?

I'd pick up those traders from time to time and call some local vets to get prices in total for what they will charge you before you decide.

when I say in total I mean ask if that includes the office call and all fees needed. Most pets should be prescription wormed before they are sold too.

And no matter what you decide remember that dog will become a beloved pet, not just a breeder , so you'll have life long expenses associated with that dog long after it can no longer be bred.

And goldens are bad for arthritis and hip dysplaysia .

My 12 year old golden is on a couple of pills a day for his arthritis. I get some bucks in those every year, plus the flea and tick treatments, as well as heart worm medicine.

[Clarence]

Candy,

Thank you for the info. I live in NY about 1.5 hrs north of NYC. My area has seen a lot of refugies from the city after Sept 11. Most still work there, but do not want there families living in the city. So, we now have a population used to paying very high prices, and I have watched everything from houseing to corn rocket up in price. I have also seen a few new big pet stores move in, which is leading me to believe that all the city folk gone "country" want dogs and such.

I'm not looking to become rich from breeding dogs, and I have no intentions of working the dog shows. I wouldn't be tring to breed chap dogs, however I am interested in breeding good healthy, freindly, smart dogs.

I figure I'm going to have a pet dog anyway, so I might as well have on that can be put to work, and maybe offset its own costs as well as making a few extra bucks.

Besides like you said I get a life long friend. :)

thanks
Clarence

[Doglover]

I think it is unethical and down right wrong.

Have you ever heard the terms "Back Yard Breeder" and "Puppy Mills". They are people who raise dogs for money and end up producing genetically flawed dogs and are a major reason why the animal shelters are over flowing.

If you breed dogs correctly you will end up spend most of your "profits" on your dogs. There is only one reason to breed dogs and that is to better the breed.

Please pick livestock to make money.

[leera]

Clarence,there is SO MUCH more involed in breeding dogs than can be explained here.

First if you are going to get into that type of thing,you need to start with absolute best dog you can find,and it is usually a large investment.

For a puppy from your kennel to sell at a high price like that,the dogs have to have some sort of show or working record,something to prove their good genetics.

Most breeders with good reputations will not breed a female before she has spent enough time in the show ring to obtain at least one championship.

The same for the stud.It's almost more important for the stud dog to have a good show or working record,as that is the only thing selling his services.

I have been around dogs and breeders for a very long time,and I have never met one with a good kennel and reputation that bred more than one or two litters a year,if they have two,they are breeding two different females,not the same one twice.

SO in a nutshell:

Choose your breed carefully,do your research.
Spend some time in the show rings(working or confirmation)
Build your dog's reputation by it winning some titles.
Don't plan on more than one or two litters a year.

When to the point of breeding your dog and selling the puppies:

Your kennel should be clean and shiny,and outdoor runs clean of fecal matter.
Your dogs healthy,clean and well groomed
All vet records up to date on the adults and the pups.

I haven't met a good breeder yet that doesn't sell a pup with at lest a one year health guarantee.

A close friend of mine sells her pups with a TWO YEAR health guarantee,and will take back an adult dog at any time for any reason,even if it's only because the owners are moving or whatever.

Breeding dogs is a labor of love,and those who do it properly are trying only to improve the breed.

Just getting a female and breeding her to the male down the road,is NOT being a good breeder or owner.

I have seen plenty of backyard breeders and puppy mills in my time,and honestly,when I see one,it makes me sick to my stomach.People like that are only in it for the money,and care nothing about the dogs or the breed,or the people who end up with a poorly bred dog.

I knew of a lady who was selling Soft Coated Wheaten Terriers........she had 50+ of them,and often had 6-8 litters at one time.That is a puppy mill in it's truest form.
Her dogs had a rare genetic disorder,and often died by age 4......but she still kept breeding them.

My best advice to you would be to spend a great deal of time in and around the show rings,talking to and meeting the people who breed and show the dog you have chosen,and plan on spending some money to get started,take the time to learn all there is to know about the breed,the history,and running a kennel,before you ever get your first dog.

[palerider]

I cannot BELIEVE that you would think of breeding dogs when you know nothing about them or breeding. As an earlier post states, this is why the shelters are full of dogs. Not every dog should be bred, nor should every person that wants some extra income breeed dogs.
Stop and think about what you are intending to do...add to the pet over population problem just to earn some extra bucks.
I DID breed GSPs for a long time a litter every two or three years with always an eye to improving the breed. I have bred for the last time, four years ago, just too many dogs in shelters, I have no wish to add to the problem.
My dogs are the best GSPs in general, that I know of and I had the first (so I was told) GSPs trained to be service dogs in the USA.
Breeding dogs should be undertaken only by those dedicated enough to devote time and money to the betterment of their chosen breed. To intnd to "make a profit" especially with only one breeding female, well, if you feed and care for the dog and her pups with vetting and all, you will find any "profit" will be realized in pennies per hour.
Get a good book on raising and training dogs, think about what it means to be a responsible owner and breeder. There are ways to earn just as much without bringing puppies into the world to be discarded into shelters at some point.
I did it because I LOVE my breed, not because i loved the money the pups brought. I also have a number of darlings here that i wouldn't place in homes where I felt they would not have had the proper care. THAT is what being a GOOD RESPONSIBLE breeder is about.
Why not become a brain surgeon or an astronaut in your spare time instead?

[leera]

SHEESH! I just reread my post from earlier..........I guess I should have used that handy dandy spell check button..........sorry for all the bad spelling guys.........

[Doglover]

I am glad I wasn't the only who felt this way....I was thinking I might be the minority here.

[leera]

Doglover,I have been around dogs and kennels my whole life.

I have not found a breed yet that I don't like,many that I wouldn't choose to own,but none that I have a true dislike for.

My current dog is a mix,rescued on his way to the shelter,our dog that we lost to old age and other issues last year was also a rescue,even our cat came from the shelter(she literally picked us).

I love dogs,and most animals for that matter,and hate to see them treated as walking money makers.I've spent more than my fair share of time working at kennels and with rescue groups.

I am not saying that people should not breed dogs,but that they should do ALL of the research and gain experience before jumping into it.

Trust me,you are not in the minority here.......

Clarence I do not want to entirely discourage you,but please know what you are getting into before you ever get a dog that you plan on breeding.

A good breeding program takes a long time to build,and it takes a lot of hard work and a pretty fair amount of money to build a dog's reputation,enter it in shows,travel cost,handlers fees,etc,etc........Then there are vet fees,food bills,upkeep of the kennel.........the list is nearly endless.

This is not an endeavor to be jumped into blindly.

[Clarence]

WOW,
everyone seems to think I'm trying to breed dogs for the cosmetics labs.

Did anyone even read my posts?

I see nothing wrong with selling a dog which comes from a line of dogs that have proven to be nothing more then lovely, smart, freindly animals. Breeding a dog or selling a dog that the vet says has a problem or may have a problem is wrong.
Selling a dog that makes a family happy is perfectly ok.

Yes there are a large number of pets that are tost into shelthers.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say they are not dogs that people have payed for, at lest not most of them.

Could I sell my dog to someone who would mistreat the animal. It is very possible, but there is only so much one can do to prevent this. without having to make surprise visits to someones home. There is no way I'm going to make people agree to that kind of invation.

Getting into it without know what I'm doing. That is a valid point. which is why I'm doing my homework. Starting with a post here where I have had good information on many subjects handed to me.

Of course, we are all intitled to our own points of view.

thanks for the info
Clarence

[MNMOM]

"I'm going to go out on a limb and say they are not dogs that people have payed for, at lest not most of them. '' Quote from Clarance"

You did go out on a limb, there are purebred rescue groups in every state, and most of these purebred that have been rescued have been mistreated and abused, some of been dumped in the country, and these are all dogs that people paid money for.

Right now we are going through the MN golden retriever rescue organization (RAGOM) to adopt a senior female golden retriever. Some of the stories that these dogs have gone through are horrendous.

Please think of another way to make money, it's insane to bring more dogs into this world when there are so many waiting to be adopted.

[Clarence]

My only problem with adopting adult dogs, is that you are getting a dog that you don't know. A dog you have not brought up by hand and can't tell when it is playing and when it is going to bit your hand.
Something that happened to my grandmother recently by her dog. which was adopted from a rescue group.

So you end up with an animal that is big enough to hurt you or your kids, and you don't know it enough to watch the signs.

but you are right there are a lot of dogs and a lot that are sadly mistreated.

[leera]

IF you really want to know how many purbred dogs there are out there in the rescue system....go to www.petfinder.org

Clarence......like I said,I do not want to entirely discourage you,but please do your research and learn as much as you can before you get your first dog.

I myself LOVE dogs.........and have owned purbred and mixed.........I have spent YEARS around them.Would I buy one from a breeder,even though I know several? Probably not.

Every dog I've ever owned has been a rescue,either from the streets,or the pound.

[MNMOM]

We have rescued two other dogs and they were loving additions to our family, of course these were goldens also, very sweet dispositions.
Most shelters put these dogs through testing, if they aren't adoptable and have very serious personality traits then they are put down.

[orchardist]

Yes, we breed white gs dogs.

The mantra - improve the breed. If you check out dog websites you see this one all the time. I don't think they know what they are doing, they just know they're supposed to say this.

There is a ton of information about this on the net, also talk to breeders that have been doing this for a long time, they'll give you good information.

Follow your heart, and the money will follow. You are doing this backwards.

Some people start these types of threads to discourage people who have a real interest, and to cause outrage.

[candy]

Clarence

I see your heart is in the right place here!

Everybody is right. You do need to carefully research and know what you are getting into.

Once you have done that , and make your decision do it with gusto.

There are a lot of people that breed dogs because they believe their dogs have something better to help the breed.

My husband is that way his dogs are like his children. And we have lots of grandchildren. We don't make much money at it. Actually I doubt we cover all our costs. But we do have a contract and form we fill out with folks. I require them to have a vet reference. We have sold dogs to policeman and firemen and now they all want one of hubbys puppies.

I often get mail with a picture of one of our puppies and the owners. I get emails often telling me some cute thing one of the dogs we sold somebody just did.

So if you decide to breed do it , and do check those people out a little before letting them have a puppy.

I have turned plenty of people down that wanted to buy a puppy. I make them talk to me long enough to know if they know anything about dogs and how to treat them.

If they don't , they do not get one of our puppies.

[Txanne]

I am glad I wasn't the only who felt this way....I was thinking I might be the minority here.


No you are not alone.

Puppies mills make me sick!!

240 pit-bulls were put down here--The owner was killed by an intruder[[intruders]]

The owner bred them and sold them out of state--they were starving--mistreated and in bad shape all round!

On short chains and in the elements.

As others have pleaded--do your home work.

Good luck---annie

[Doglover]

Breeding dogs for Cash....

If done correctly and ethically, you often lose money and make very little money (if any) only after many many years of building a name through showing, work trials.

[candy]

You got that right doglover.

Our dogs cost us lots of money.

[leera]

One of my friend's breeds and show Labradors........last year she spent just over 30K on them and shows,travel,etc.......what did she earn from all that? Just under 12K..........in other words she LOST about 17K........

It is definately not something to get into if you wanna make money.

And yep........she sells her pups for around $600.00 each.

[fatguy]

Hey Clarence, I used to breed dogs and sell the pups. My brother and I are full time firefighters. He worked his ### off one year at part time jobs, and I just bred pitbulls. I made more on the side than he did. But I found small dogs sold the best around me. A good way to sell them is take a cute picture with a ribbon around there neck and print it out on paper with your number. Post it up on any bulliton board you find. Ignore these people who say your some kind of monster. People want Dogs, you can provide them.. also you can save a ton by giving them shots your self. There 8 bucks at the feed store. just keep the shots cold till you get home. Good luck

[fatguy]

Clarence another thing is, most people just want a good pet.They dont need a topp of the line show dog and you dont have to travel the country going to shows like the one lady said. Dog shows are just dog beauty contest any way. Just make sure your dogs are healthy. I have not sold dogs for years but I made good money when I did. I love dogs to, but I cant believe how holier than thou these people get.

[Doglover]

Holier than Thou...or ethical? Dog shelters are overflowing with great dogs.....the last thing the world needs is more "Back yard breeders" ::)

[WileyCoyote]

It's pretty much all been said here, by both the people who make profit and the people who care about the hundreds of thousands of 'bred' dogs in shelters.

I purchased a fine little bitch of a Sheltie from a puppy mill friend of mine. She lived 6 years. All of my other dogs have been rescues - and many have been purebred. People think that dogs are throwaways - or they find out that they are too expensive to keep up with, with the vet visits and shots and their own lives and kids' needs.

Right now I own a beautiful show-quality Afghan Hound - a stunning blonde beauty who deigns to be petted wherever she goes. A year and a half ago, she was shivering naked in a vet's office, covered so badly in mange that it took a year for her fur to start coming back. She had been kept in a 8X10 cage for 5 years, bred 3-4 times a year as an afghan puppy mill mommy. When she became too sick to produce, the puppy mill owner gave her up. I see the owner has another one on Petfinder this month. She can never be shown, because she has no AKC paperwork - and because she is spayed; which after her experiences I would have required even if the vet didn't! Afghans are stubborn, mischievous, highly intelligent, and love to kill things. In Afghanistan, they are trained to hunt in packs like wolves and bring down prey for their owners. Here, people buy them for their beauty and discard them because that beauty is so hard to keep up, or because their temperament is more catlike than doglike. Or - being VERY fast sighthounds who can leap a six-foot fence with no problem - they are put in runs from which they can escape and are never caught again. Most dogs like my afghan are 'crazed' by their poor conditions and have to be put down; we got lucky with her.

Most folks want dogs for what they perceive are good reasons - but then the reasons disappear. A good show dog line of champions can bring a high price - but that is because people pay for a true and sturdy bloodline. Yes, you can make money on non-champion dogs, if that is your goal. True breeders of the lines will always take the dog back (no matter how old) because they want to preserve the quality of the breed.

I am considering breeding Afghans from good certified stock once we move to the country - not to sell, but to train to track and hunt in a pack just as they were intended to do. It will be very expensive and exhausting work with no monetary profit. However, I love the breed and would not consider bringing in an overbred little monster to corrupt the bloodline with physical or social or emotional failures, which happens with too much inbreeding, and happened with my Sheltie. If you love the breed, you will want to breed it to true. If all you want is profit, well, IMHO, you are a puppy mill that is breeding meat to sell, nothing more.

[fatguy]

Hi every one. Doglover, what makes you think I am un ethical? I sold only healthy and tempermentaly sound dogs. I love dogs and they all had extremely large pens with plenty of room. They were well fed and got plenty of walks ect. One time a pup was not healthy and I gave the guy his money back. If people want a rescue dog they can go to a shelter. I have rescued dogs myself . But most people who bought dogs from me wanted a PUP! I would hesitate to get a pound dog now that I have kids. There is a reason people give dogs to shelters.Some are dangerous or have other problems.I did nothing "unethical" or immoral. I have a large family I support with no help fro the Government or any one else.Thats the way I want it! Selling dogs is a way to support them honestly..I sold people something at a fair price.
I agree with the lady who has Afghan hounds, they are beautifull dogs. I will say I am in Afghanistan right now with the National Guard and I have never seen any thing here that even slightly resembles the beautifull dogs we have in the USA. Those beautifull dogs were produced by some horrible breader like me.
Doglover, the term backyard breader is misleading. The best dogs I have ever owned were from people you would consider "backyard breaders". In my experience ,if you want an un healthy peice of crap, get a show dog!

[panzer426]

Hard for me to accept you as a responsible breeder unless you do the right health, genetic and temperament tests on BOTH dogs...oh, and spell BREEDER right, yeah that too.

[WileyCoyote]

Actually, if you look at the breeders' lists, some of them are still in Afghanistan... of course you are in a war zone; I don't think I would take my dogs there, or let them roam anywhere near there, and neither would a responsible breeder...

Many were imported by breeders over the years; and yes are being bred in the UK, Canada, and the US. However, these dogs are AKC or otherwise registered; with, as panzer points out, health, genetic, and temperament tests required. Paperless backyard breeders have no such inclination, and easily breed mother to son, father to daughter, or brother to sister, over and over again, which only weakens the genes and brings out the defects. That is wherefrom many breed-specific genetic problems have derived; the too-small head on Dobies that causes them to become erratic and vicious later in life, the hip dysplasia that cripples Shepherds and Great Danes and other larger dogs... terrible things to do to dogs, but backyard breeders do not care, not their problem.

And I have friends who run shelters; most dogs are not 'turned in' to shelters, but are found abandoned and starving, trying to raise their pups in ditches or nasty backyards. Most of them are and can be loyal and dedicated dogs as well as puppies. Some are taken from abusive owners; others, like my Sasha, from an abusive, money-grubbing breeder. The vicious and 'unadoptable' ones are put down swiftly. So please don't try to smear shelter dogs as being lesser than your own backyard breeding. In a few years, those very shelter dogs may be ones from your backyard.

In my experience with professional breeders at dog shows and with friends who own purebreds, breeding dogs is not a money-making enterprise, but a money-losing enterprise. One has to have a separate income apart from the dogs to be a responsible breeder and to maintain all of those certifications to standard.

[fatguy]

OK Panzer you got me...I suck at spelling LOL. But I never sold unhealthy dogs. Evan if I did not love dogs ,that would be bad bussines. I have not bred dogs for years but I still run into folks that bought dogs from me and the dogs are still healthy years later.All my animals were vet checked.

Wileycoyote, thats very interesting about the Afghan breeders being here, I had no idea. But you are assuming that it is back yard breeders that inbreed. Some might, but I sure never did. That is my beef with SHOW dogs. Many are bred for beauty, with out any thought of temperment and health.They inbreed ,but they call it "line breeding".All pure breds are line bred to some extent.
The AKC does not require any health or temperment test that I know of to breed. If both parents are registerd you can send them $35 dollars or so and your pup is to. Not all show dogs are bad, but having papers is not proof you have a healthy or sound dog. All my dogs were healthy out of good stock, but not all were registered.
I am not saying all dogs from shelters are bad. I have had dogs from rescues. But my aunt had one that bit the crap out of me. She got it from a shelter.
My wife has a litter of pups some jerk dropped off the side of on the road RIGHT NOW.
The original queston was from Clarance "can you make money breeding your PET dog". The answer is yes. Like I said just make sure your dog is HEALTHY and has a good temperment.
I can assume most people here are not super rich. There is nothing wrong with breeding good dogs and selling pups. A stay at home Mom can do it , or some one who can not work due to a disability or something. My wife did so she could stay at home with our kids at one point. Ithink it would be hard to make a living off it ,but you can make a little on the side. You sound like a nice person, I just think you are judging people like me and Clarance a little harshly. Good luck with your dogs!

[panzer426]

OK Panzer you got me...I suck at spelling LOL. But I never sold unhealthy dogs. Evan if I did not love dogs ,that would be bad bussines. I have not bred dogs for years but I still run into folks that bought dogs from me and the dogs are still healthy years later.All my animals were vet checked.



Okay, prove it. What breed of do did you breed...and what health, temperament and genetic tests were done on your breeding dogs, and their sires/dams, siblings, and grand sires/dams?
And what were the results/scores, and who performed those tests?

and the true answer to the original question "can you make money by breeding dogs" is two fold. YES, if you breed indiscriminately and don't perform the proper tests. No, if you are a responsible breeder, you cannot make money on breeding...instead you make money by training, showing, etc.

[fatguy]

so Panzer, you want the the breed of dogs I sold, the genetic test resulte of all the parents ,grand parents, siblings,and all the pups. And you want the scores of there temperment test and the names of the people who performed them. The name Panzer fits you, you sound like the Gestapo LOL.
I would bet 99% of pet owners and breeders do not have that much information on there dogs. And you can gaurantee 100% of the people getting dogs out of shelters do not.
You sound like you are involved with dogs some how maybe showing or training. So I may have hit a nerve when I critisized show dogs. But I will stand by my opinion that dogs bred for show and show breeders breeding for beauty instead of function has done more harm to dogs than small breeders like myself that bred a few litters from there pets ever have. Some examples are Irish Setters that can not hunt, Labs , German Shepards, Golden retrievers and a host of other breeds that are riddled with hip dysplasia. And the list goes on.
Lets clarify one thing, I have not bred dogs for years. But when I was breeding dogs, I bred Pit Bulls, Dachshunds, a Peekinese a few times and and a Poodle once. When I was breeding dogs about the only genetic testing I know of that was avaliable, was OFA and Penn Hipp for displasia. At the time that was not a problem in Pit Bulls or any of the other dogs I bred. I under stand it is now becoming a problem now that people are breeding them for un natural features, such as wide stance, bluecoat ect. As far as temperment testing I DID seek the advice of an expert. A former Military k9 handler and trainer and pretty much genious when it comes to dogs. Both he and I knew my dogs well as he had assisted me with training them.I sought his opinion when picking a stud. I did not want to produce dangerouse animals. He also did some temperment test on the pups and they did very well. I believe he did 14 test or so it has been a long time so my memory of what the test were are not clear. As for the smaller dogs we bred, they were pets and we new the health and temperment of them. They all spent a portion of time in our house.
Most working people do not want to pay $600 to thousands of dollars for a pet. They do not care if it has a pedigree as long as your arm. And a pedigree is no guarantee you will get a good dog. I gave an open ended money back guaratee on the pups I sold and did not get any back so I feel they were healthy dogs.
By the way how is making money showing dogs more ethical than breeding them?

[panzer426]

I have never shown and I agree that show breeders breeding for type have done more damage than good...unfortunately I classify you as a back yard breeder. BYB's have done as much, or more, harm than show breeders. Show breeders at least know all of the tests required to judge a dog worthy of breeding.

It depends on the breed, but unless you last bred a dog before 1950, there are a minimum of 6 tests that should be performed on any dog of any breed before they are bred. Temperament and hips/elbows are just 2 of the tests.

I have worked and trained (and studded) German Shepherds since 1990. I have never been involved with ANY conformation show. I have trained, competed and shown in herding, tracking, agility, schutzhund, personal protection and with various law enforcement agencies and militarys.

The sad thing is that the majority of American breeders don't understand what is involved in breeding responsibly. Why are so many tests required? Because a responsible breeder breeds to improve their chosen breed. While I may disagree with certain beliefs of conformation (AKC to name one) breeders, at least they try to improve their breeds, they don't breed just to make a buck or to produce a great pet quality dog...they do everything they can to ensure that all pups produced will be even better examples of their breed than their parents were.

Responsible breeders don't make money by breeding, they make some of their expenses from showing, training and breeding back by selling the pups.

The only breeders who make money are the top breeders of the top bloodlines, they have been involved with their breed(s) long enough to have developed a reputation for producing top quality dogs for either show and/or working trials. They also have 10 buyers waiting in lines for every 1 pup they produce.

I recently bred my male to a female in another state. We spent more than 9 months planning the breeding. I have spent several thousand dollars having my male evaluated in every possible way, to ensure his pups will be healthy and of high quality. The owners of the bitch spent even more, males and females require many of the same tests but some different. She will likely give birth to 6-8 puppies, 6-8 being average for German Shepherds. The owners of the bitch have a waiting list with over 80 names on it, all wanting pups of the quality that this litter is expected to produce.

If she whelps any pet quality pups they will be neutered/spayed before going to new homes (no reputable breeder will let them leave until they are 14-16 weeks of age), and their buyers will pay $500 for them. Pick(s) of the litter (these are working dogs, not AKC type) will sell for a couple of thousand dollars...3 of the people waiting on the lis are hoping for pups just like the sire (my male) and are willing to pay up to $5,500 for one. The price will depend on the quality.

4 pups from his last litter were a perfect blending of both sire and dam, they sold for $7,500 at 16 weeks of age with no training started. I know 2 of the new owners very well and have heard others offer them more than $12,000 for the 14 month old pups now that they have a ton of training and are really becoming serious working/competition dogs.

That isn't because the bitchs owners decided that was a fair price because they wanted to make money. Prices are set after both sire and dam and all puppies have been evaluated by FIVE independent German Shepherd judges with nothing to gain, they each get a flat fee of $200 whether the average of their suggested values equal $0 or a million each. They sign saying that they evaluated and every buyer gets to contact them and gets a copy of all forms, including parents certifications and test results.

If any buyer is unsure of the judges averaged value for a pup, they are welcome to contact a judge of their own choosing and have them evaluate the pup in question. The breeder will also have a new judge come out.

Making money breeding dogs is not unethical...making money by breeding dogs when/if you are not knowledgeable enough, not having the proper testing done, and/or not breeding quality dogs and producing superior quality pups is extremely unethical.

Ultimately it is the buyers responsibility though. There will always be liars who will breed anything and make a buck, there will always be breeders who are too lazy and/or cheap to know better.

Buyers need to do the proper research before even picking a breed, let alone a breeder or a puppy.

[biff]

If every breeder did what Panzer does with his dogs no one could afford a pet dog! I think what your doing with dogs is great Panzer but it just not practical for most other people. I will also say that there are plenty of country boys out there that have worked with dogs there whole life, and they can size a dogs temperment up pretty quickly with out paying an expert 200 dollars to do a test. And most of them could care less about papers. Answer this honestly...could a normal working man afford to buy a dog from you? I payed less for my mobile home than you sell your pups for. As an answer to the original question of this post, you can make money breeding dogs, but it is not easy money, it takes a lot of work. But it is definately worth it if you allready love spending a lot of time with dogs. I should in fairness point out that I am the fat guys brother that has allready answered this post.

[biff]

I would like to add this to my earlier post.... the monks of new skete have a book called how to be your puppys best friend that has a good section on doing temperament test on your pups and I think if you are breeding dogs you should do those test. Also to Panzer , I reread your post and I see that you sell your pups for 500 not 7500, and that is more reasonable. Also ..are you keeping your pups past 12 weeks? Everything I've ever read said you should find your pups a home between 7 and 12 weeks or they wont bond as well with people....how are you socializing these dogs? You seem to have a lot of knowledge about dogs, has that recomendation changed? I agree with a lot of what you say in your post but I do think that back yard breeders have gotten a bum rap from the AKC. I live in South Carolina and I have met people that have bred hog dogs and such for 40 years, and have'nt ever had a dog with papers. Most of these guys bred dogs for their own use, and if you were lucky they'd have a pup available. There have allways been guys around that know dogs as well as Ceaser Milan..they just don't have there own tv show.

[gardenfay]

Hey Clarence:
just in case you are still watching this thread, wanted to put my two cents in here. Here is a gal who thinks there is a vast difference between most "backyard breeders' and a puppy mill. A person who believes that sometimes people get more revved up over the idea of people mistreating an animal than they do a human child. A woman who is aware that you can talk about the noble cause of bettering the breed all you want to; but the fact is that there are trends in breeds, just as there are trends in other parts of our society and some trait that may be considered imperative now might considered quite inconsequential later on. So, i dont see any real reason to act like a person considering selling canine pups for cash is out of line. the way I see it if the aunt's pups were inferior; she wouldn't be selling them to individuals for that amount. Also, if a person wants to put so much importance on a discussion like this; lets just go ahead and compare it with having a child - i hear alot of people act like their pets are their kids; so okay would you consider it reasonable if a couple announced they were trying to have a child and everybody started running them down and then said they thought they should instead head down to juvey hall or cruise thru the rough part of the city and see if they could pick up a teenager or hey why not get several - that has run away from home or that the parents have thrown out of the house.

[remington]

What if those shelters don't have the breed I want. There are less than one hundred pure bred Decker Rat Terriers in the U.S. right now. I guarantee you that the shelter has none.

[panzer426]

For years the myth that pups need to go to their new homes between 7 and 12 weeks old (usually either 6 weeks or 8) has been the general rule.

The truth is this: pups that stay with their mother and litter mates until ATLEAST 12 weeks (14-16 is most popular with good breeders today, and more and more breeders are adopting this practice every day) learn proper behavior (such as how rough they can get in their play before mom - brother or sis kick their butts, how loud they can get before getting yelled at by a litter mate while everyone is sleeping...and even the first steps in house training by the responsible breeders) before going to new homes.

So you go pick up your puppy at 8 weeks old and get home with a puppy that bites and scratches you until you bleed and get so frustrated that your stress level actually slows down the training process dramatically, the pup whines all night and barks for an hour when you lock him up.

OR you get your puppy at 14 +/- weeks and the puppy doesn't do these things...or atleast does them a whole lot less because she is beginning to understand the rules a LOT better.

PLUS, at 6 weeks through about 10-12 weeks puppies go through several fear stages...momma, littermates and good breeder with tons of knowledge really help them get through these with as little stress and trauma as possible...far better than you can even if you are the best dog trainer there is. Your pup will actually adapt to you, bond to you, and you to him far (FAR) better, easier and faster if you take him home at 14-16 weeks of age.

As a side note regarding socialization...until your vet gives your pup his final puppy shot (at 4 1/2 months or 6 months depending on the laws regarding which vaccines he can give, and how long your courts say they are good for), your pup should be restricted to home (where he cannot come into contact with canines other than his house mates) and the veterinary office.

#1: This may save his life, as his puppy shots do not protect him from parvo or distemper (which he can pick up off the ground if he gets within 15 feet of a spot where another dog walked up to 12 months ago...that time length grows every year with more research, 2 years ago they said if a dog was there 6 months ago). They don't protect him, they build up his immunity so that by 4.5 - 6 months of age he will be protected.

#2: The last fear stage a dog goes through is at 4 months of age (there are more but minor). Socialization is exponentially easier and longer lasting if you wait.

[CountryKitty]

Hi, Clarence,

I think it is very wise of you to ask questions from a widely varied group such as this before going into breeding dogs. Some of the posts gave excellent advice, but unfortunately several others did NOT make the distinction between breeders and puppy mills. There's a difference between the 2. (Note: I'm not putting anyone down for a low opinion on people who indiscriminately breed dogs, just making the ditinction between such people and a guy whose 'breeder' will be living in the house with him as a companion 1st and moneymaker a distant 2nd)

I bought both of my dogs from "backyard breeders"--NOT puppy mills. The parents were pets first and as such were relaxed and well-socialized...producing pups that were the same. No small sterile kennels, just house-raised pets. Not neglected or stressed or mistreated for the sake of cash.

One is a now 14yo, slightly senile, arthritic red chow who snores atrociously. Bought him from a man who had owned both parents for 10 years. They had a big clean fenced in yard to play in, slept in the house at night, were calm and relaxed. In fact, when DH picked up one pup it yelped...and its mother simply watched calmly from a few feet away. We were so pleased with Oso as pet and companion and natural guard dog that we went back the following year for a second pup --and were told that the mother had gone thru' menopause...I suspect that the owner simply 'retired' her with a trip to the vet for spaying due to her age. (Which of course speaks well for him--Oso was one of a large litter which included white and blond pups as well as red--the mom would have been a highly desireable breeder...to a puppy mill breeder.)

The second dog is a huge german shepherd...his mother had been allowed to have a couple of litters and was, at 4yo, being fixed herself (the larger the breed the shorter the lifespan, so neutering her at 4 rather than waiting a couple more years was prudent). She too was a comapnion first, living in the house with the family and having a large farmyard to roam. Karl is now 6 years old and no signs of hip problems...we have a big round bale in the yard and he jumps up on it and leaps off effortlessly. Watches everything going on around here like a hawk. Plays with the cats and wanders thru' the henyard amid my chickens and ducks without giving them a second glance. In fact, due to his size and temperament and health we consider him to be a breeding quality animal, and might put him to stud should the occasion come up---and should the owner of the female share our ethics concerning qualilty of the breed and quality of life for the animals involved.

In fact, I will NEVER buy an animal from a breeder with dogs confined to those large sterile kennels, but ONLY from someone whose animal is a pet, with house priveledges and the companionship of its owner.

Since you are already considering the dog as a pet, ask your aunt for one. Most dogs go into heat at 8-10 months, but aren't finished physically growing til about 2 years. Don't breed her til then, and do all your research in the meantime on the market in your area, the costs both financial and to the dogs health (of having a litter per year for 5 or 6 years--I wouldn't do 2 as that would drag down the dog physically), talk to your aunt about her experiences and maybe even sit in on some sales to get a feel for the people looking at the pups. And when she is 2 you can either breed her--or not.

[HumaneSocietySteve]

Hello Clarence,

I have been a fan of BHM almost since its beginnings. I didn't know they had a forum or I would have been a member earlier. When I saw the forum tonight and was pa rousing the topics yours caught my eye like a 10 Million candle power warning beacon. To someone who has dedicated their life to helping animals I want to take this opportunity to let you know some things that you may not be aware of.

I was in the same position as you back in 1991. I had found a beautiful Siberian Husky roaming the streets. I posted in the local paper and checked the shelter and no one was looking for him so I adopted him as mine. I was making plans to find a female Siberian and go into the breeding business until I met a little old lady who had been fighting a battle for many years. She very nicely and with ultimate concern in her eyes explained to me that every day in every part of our country dogs like my pure bred Siberian Husky and many mixed breeds were being killed in local pounds and shelters. She told me that as many as 50% of ALL pure bred dogs ended up in the pound to be killed.

Like many people I didn't know that 6 million dogs and cats are killed a year because of peoples negligence in local shelters. She told me that many people treat their "family pet" like a pair of jeans and when they can't keep it for some reason or decide they are tired of it they take it to the pound where it is killed. Kill rates in America's shelters and pounds averages 74% nationally. I hate percentages because they really don't get the message across. I prefer to say out of every 1000 animals that end up in a pound nationally 740 are killed. Not very good odds. I'm glad I'm not a dog roaming the streets of America.

Back to the little old lady. She looked me straight in the eye and asked me why I wanted to contribute to this tragedy by breeding more innocent lives to be needlessly killed. I am very seldom at a loss for words but I couldn't find a good answer to tell her. All I could do was agree with her because I loved animals then as I do now....and she was making sense.

That day this little old lady opened my eyes and found another person to join the battle she was fighting to save these deserving creatures. I am now the President of a local Humane Society. I am also an Animal Cruelty Investigator and see daily reason after reason why you shouldn't contribute to this overwhelming problem.

The most frequent report I get is ...My neighbor moved off and left their 2 dogs and 1 cat and they are starving. Just today our all volunteer organization rescued a pure bred Australian Cattle Dog and Persian Cat where the owners just moved off and left the cat locked inside the house and the dog chained to a tree. These two were lucky because we found them in time. MANY are not that lucky and we don't find out until it's to late.

Statistically if you breed 50 dogs over the next couple of years as many as 25 of them will end up with this fate or worse. Can you live with the fact that some of the dogs you brought into the world will be mistreated in this way? Is the money worth it? Just because you charge $800 doesn't keep your dogs from ending up chained to a tree or dropped of at a pound. We have $1000 pure bred dogs surrendered to us frequently just because they chewed the favorite pair of boots or had a mistake on the carpet. We are a No Kill Organization so they are very lucky if they end up with us. We keep them until we find them a great home. We are the minority most Shelters are Kill Shelters.

No disrespect to your Aunt but she is part of this huge problem. She is what we call a Back Yard Breeder. A BYB is a person who is in the breeding business just for the money. When you say she pays $25 dollars per puppy for their shots at the Vet is a big clue. This is the absolute minimum amount of care a puppy should receive. BYB are the biggest contributor to this pet problem.

There are responsible breeders out there, we have several in or organization. They are not in it for the money. They are in it to make the Breed better and are very selective. They know EVERYTHING there is to know about the breed and with a trained eye they know which dogs exemplify the breed and will represent its traits the best. They have only 1 or 2 liters every couple of years. The other thing you hear from these breeders is that you can't be in it for the money and give the puppy the appropriate care.

The bottom line is that as long as our society is killing 6 million innocent creatures a year WHY do we want to bring more puppies or kittens into the world. If it's only for money....well that's just not a good enough reason.

I would encourage you as someone who was in your shoes several years ago to do the right thing. Not necessarily the right thing for you...but the right thing for the Dogs you are considering bringing into this world. I would implore you to take a trip to your local pound and look into the eyes of the dogs that will not be there tomorrow because at the end of the day they will be taken to a room, stuck with a needle and if they are lucky die a sad lonely death.

The vast majority of these dogs are not mean, ugly, sick or injured. They simply don't have a place to call home. This is where the tragedy is the worst. If all the people who BUY pure bred dogs from breeders for family pets were to go to the local shelter and adopt a new best friend we could save all or most of the dogs killed every year in pounds. The number one cause of death for dogs in America is shelter killing.

I hope I have made as effective a case as the little lady made to me over 17 years ago. All I ask is that you think, ponder and pray about what I have said. Lives depend on your decision.

[Deberosa]

I am glad someone from the humaine society is on line - welcome! I have some input for your organization that has bothered me for many years.

15 years ago I went looking for a dog companion. I went to the humaine societies first but they wanted me to bring in all kinds of proof as to who I was and really pried into my life like I was on trial!!! I ended up purchasing a lab/springer cross puppy from a pet store and she was my constant companion until last year. I have heard this same story from many other very responsible people looking for dogs. I would like to see the humaine society to lose some of the beauracracy around adoptions. I know the organization is trying to prevent them from coming back but for every return prevention they are accomplishing they are also driving away perfectly good dog owners that refuse to give up tons of personal information in order to adopt a dog.


I do agree that there are many who treat pets as disposable - I saw it alot at colleges where students get dogs for the school year and then dump them. I also have a basset hound that I got from a familiy who didn't want her any more but they were responsible enough to make sure she got a good home. And I didn't need to bring in electric bills and paycheck stubs in order to adopt her...

Sorry but this is an annoyance of mine so maybe you could take this info back to your organization.

Debbie

[WRTN]

Let me add further on what Deberosa posted. *I'll have to appologize right up front if anyones toes are stepped on but I am just disgusted with the so called "Humane Society".

EVERY animal we have is one that we either took off of death row at the shelters, taken in after being dumped, or took in from folks who could not take care of them. *All have been given their shots, spayed or neutered if appropriate, and are WELL cared for.

I believe it is VERY important that people be responsible for their animals and we do our best to help others out who may be having difficulties doing this. *

The above having been said, the Humane Society, Cause For Pause, and PETA (there are more) I have found to at best to be hypocrites and at worst Eco-terrorist and Animal Right Fascists Whacko's. *

A recent case in our area leaves MANY SERIOUS questions left unanswered over an "alleged" animal abuse case. *I don't have all of the particulars and facts just yet but the animals appeared to be OVER fed if anything. *

The case has the appearance of a bitter neighbor who wanted to take revenge using the animal rights whacko's & sheriff department to sieze these animals. *

Now that the case has dragged out in the courts, I am hearing reports that many of the free loading vulters and scavengers who were only too glad to take what they thought were FREE animals and free fed paid for with this woman's bond money that has now run out are whinning and crying about having to pay for feed these animals out or their own pockets. *

The other issue is that these animals ARE in FACT PRIVATE PROPERTY.......PERIOD. *No just compensation has been given to this woman. *Not to mention the nearly $10,000 she has paid in lawyers fees. *

EACH and EVERYTIME we have contacted the Humane Society about taking dumped animals, we got anything but a "Humane" response. *We DID get a LOT of tap dancing, excuses, lies, and bad attitude. *We ended up taking care of the animal out of our own pocket. *

Our experience is that these so called "animal rights" and "Humane Organizations" are ALL for humane treatment and animal rights as long as it is at someone elses expense. *

Perhaps this story below is an exception and the owner deserves this but from what little I have been able to find out..........I doubt it.

Furthmore, most people has absolutely NO IDEA of how drackonian and oppressive the animal cruelty laws are in TN and I suspect most other states. *You may not realize it but ANYONE can be charged with animal cruelty for things that most farmers have done as a traditional farming practice for generations and not even realize they are breaking the law.

The latest and greatest animal rights do gooder stupidity is the horse legislation that makes it illegal to slaughter horses for meat in the US. *Now not only are the same horses now slaughtered in an even MORE inhumane fashion in Mexico and Canada, they get to have a sardine can packed truck ride to the slaughter house out of country, not to mention the lose of American jobs.


Where were all the concerned animal humane folks and animal rights whacko's when this woman apparently needed some help?????? *When I have come across bad animal situations, I have offered help, NOT a stab in the back with an anomymous phone call. *I have tried to be a good neighbor offering a helping hand NOT another arm of our local corrupt county law enforcement thugs and criminals
http://www.timesdaily.com/article/20071128/NEWS/71128003/1011/RSS&source=RSS

http://www.whnt.com/Global/story.asp?S=7429618

http://www.servingwayneco.com/animal%20rescue.html

Again, I don't have all the fact but it sure does appear to be less than ethical how this case is going. *Maybe someone can fill in between the lines as to that facts of what is REALLY going on. *

[bee_pipes]

If you get into breeding anything, I don't care if it's dogs, horses, sheep or chickens, there are a number of traditions for handling livestock. One of the more unpleasant aspects are culling the herd for improved genetics. With chickens or other food animals, this is no problem - you eat the culls. With dogs, cats, horses and other animals occupying a place of favor in human hearts, you have removed them from this potential use. Yeah, I know - it's a cultural thing that goes down to the bones.

In general livestock keeping, you also never keep an in-tact male unless you are planning on breeding. It's just too dangerous. With most food animals, the male is either harvested before reaching sexual maturity, or castrated and finished until ready for harvest.

You really have to hand it to cats and dogs, from a survival perspective. They have so ingratiated themselves to humans that they have been removed from the list of likely candidates for dinner. The result is that we have breeding populations out of control. We see the results of this daily - sad looking dogs dumped off at the land fill, dogs dumped off on our road, animal shelters bursting at the seams.

I have seen a few of the commercial breeding operations. Puppy mills, they used to call them. Most folks I have met that humanely bred dogs and cats were doing it out of a love for the breed. They weren't making money, just reducing the overhead of something they loved doing.

Right now we have 4 dogs - maybe 2 or 3 more than I need. They were all rescued animals. There's nothing more expensive than a free dog - they have been wormed, fixed, are well fed and get worm and flea goop regularly. It's hard to see these abandoned animals, but you have to eventually harden yourself to te sight - you just can't take them all in.

Maybe we would do better to cultivate a taste for dog and cat - seems to work in Korea. The alternative is large packs of sickly, feral dogs - like the ones that have been running around Istanbul since the dawn of the Eastern Roman Empire.

Regards,
Pat

[HumaneSocietySteve]

Hello Debbie,

Thank you for the Welcome. I will try to answer some of your questions.

Firstly "Humane Society" is a generic term used by many private and public Animal Protection Organizations across the country. There are two national organization that use the phrase Humane in their name. The oldest which was founded in the 1800's was the American Humane Association which had the mission to help animals and children in situations where they couldn't help themselves.

The second is the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) which was formed in the 1950's. The HSUS is the largest and most well know and funded Animal Protection Organization in America with an annual budget of over 100 million dollars.

The ASPCA or American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals is the same way in that they have no affiliation or do they give support to any local SPCA Organizations. The ASPCA was the first Animal Protection Organization in America founded by Henry Bergh in New York. Henry was a true hero because of his stand to help animals when they were beaten, mistreated or neglected. He set the standard for animal protection groups in that he said they should have nothing to do with killing animals for the purpose of "Animal Control". However, sadly not long after his death his ASPCA and many others took contracts from municipalities to do just that. Also sadly this misuse of his heritage is still going on today in the above named national organizations even the ASPCA as well as most local municipal pounds. You can read about his story and current state of Animal Protection in a book named Redemption by Nathan Winograd. You can order it from Amazon and if you order it through our website we get credit. www.blountcountyhumanesociety.org

Our local Humane Society is a Grass Roots, Citizen Based, Non Profit, 501(c)3 No Kill Organization. Like all local Humane Societies we have no affiliation with any of the national organizations mentioned above nor do we receive funding from them. Neither of the HSUS or the AHA endorse no kill shelters or organizations, but we hope one day soon they will.

Our local Humane Society has the goal of building a No Kill Shelter and Rescue, Spay Neuter Clinic, Large Animal Rescue/Rehab and Wildlife Rescue/Rehab. We are currently hoping for a donation of land on which to build our facilities. Even though we don't have land or a facility we are a very active organization. We have programs to help people with their animal problems such as the Spay/Neuter Alliance Program (SNAP) where we assist very low income families get their pets spayed for free. Our Rescue, Rehab and Adoption Team rescues animals in need and ultimately finds them great homes. We are a full time adoption group at the local PetSmart where we achieve most of our adoptions. Our big project right now is the All Creatures Thrift Store which will be opening sometime this Spring and will bring in the much needed funds we need to help the animals. Our Animal Cruelty Investigation Program is my personal favorite because we can really help animals that don't have a voice when they are neglected or treated cruelly.

To answer your question about why some Animal Protection Organizations have strict adoption policies. When an animal is abandoned or worse neglected and it comes into our care we feel obligated to make sure, to the best of our ability, that it is going to a permanent loving home. We don't want the dog or cat to have to go through again what it has already been through. This is why you may feel like they are "prying into your life or you are on trial". I guess in a way you are on trial. We are tasked with the responsibility of making a judgement as to whether an individual can adequately care for a pet in many different ways.

Our organization requires two personal references, a Vet reference and a home visit before adoption just to name a few or our requirements. I have personally called a personal references many times of people applying to adopt one of our dogs or cats and the person on the other end of the line tells me in no uncertain terms to in no way to consider adopting a pet to their friend, relative or spouse because they don't think they would be good pet caretakers. If the personal references that the applicant wrote down on their application does not trust them to have and care for a pet then I am certainly not going to either. I have had the same response from the Vet reference and many times on the home visit when everything on the application looked great and the references checked out well I have declined the adoption based on unsafe conditions in the home or inconsistencies on the application. For example on one adoption home visit the house had a second level loft with a 20 foot drop to the concrete floor below. No rail whatsoever for safety for humans or animals. They were not willing to install a rail so I declined the adoption request for the puppy they wanted.

I guess what the bottom line is that if any of our Adoption Team members do not feel comfortable with every aspect of the adoption then they can decline it even based on a feeling. If people don't want to go through such a rigorous adoption process there are many alternatives. One is the local pound of which most do not have any regulations whatsoever except that you have the $60 to release the animal from impound. If you look in the local newspaper there are MANY free to a good home ads for dogs, cats, puppies and kittens. Plus as I have covered in my last post there are many Back Yard Breeders out for a buck where you can pay hundreds or even thousands of dollars for a cute and cuddly. Just like a doctor who takes an oath to "Do No Harm" the Animal Protection Organizations that have these hurdles you must jump over to adopt one of their charges are only looking out for their well being. If you had seen some of the cruelty and neglect cases I have seen you would not hold it against us for going the extra mile to ensure these creatures get the best possible home.

I hope this answers some of your questions and seeing that you are an animal lover and have rescued animals yourself I want to commend you for your dedication to the animals.

[gardenfay]

beepipes:
i think in some areas of the US; people are now stopping by the local animal shelter and inviting a cat or dog home for supper and i want to commend them on their sacrifice and effort.
They are the ones working overtime to decrease the surplus pet population in the US :-*

[Deberosa]

Thanks for the reply, that was pretty much my experience. I wanted to just let you know that it drives many responsible potential pet owners away from your option just because there are all of the other avenues that you pointed out. I wonder why all of those organizations were created with such similar and confusing names?

Debbie

[HumaneSocietySteve]

Hello WRTN,

Nothing like being attacked when you join a forum and make your first post. But I'm up to the task so here goes.

First of all it sounds like you have a lot of anger over this topic so I don't know if anything I say will help you out at all but I am willing to try.

I looked over all the links you sent me and they don't have a lot of information that would let me tell you as an Animal Cruelty Investigator whether this was a valid seizure. The last link did have pictures of some of the seized animals and based on these pictures I can say definitely that at least some of these animals had a very poor body condition and some looked fine. Also whenever we go on a call where one animal is already dead due to neglect and others are in poor condition the right thing to do is arrange care for ALL the animals even if some are in acceptable body condition. So based on these pictures I would have followed the same course of action unless she had some very good reasons why the animals were in this condition. Also the article mentioned she had been in the same set of circumstances in Florida. This goes to pattern if the allegations are true and can be substantiated.

I personally have went on cases where there were animals in poor body condition which were under current Vet care to remedy the situation. Even if the condition of the animals are due directly to neglect if the people are trying to do the right thing I will work with them and even help them do the right thing in caring for the animals. I have provided hay, dog and cat food, dog houses and vet care in attempts to help people who just need a helping hand.

As far as the "bitter neighbor getting revenge" the articles I read said that the authorities had had many calls from several complainants. This would lead me to think that the situation is more than a personal vendetta. However this is something we do take into account when it comes to complaints. This is why the condition of the animals is the deciding factor not the credibility or motives of the complainant. Just today I went on a call where the complainant called me in tears that the dog next door to her was skin and bones and had eyes that were red and swelled shut. Upon examining the dog the truth was that the dog was slightly underweight for the breed (Boxer & Pit bull mix). The dogs (Ace) disposition was good and he was actually a great dog. His eyes were normal and he seemed healthy in every other respect. His living conditions did leave something to be desired as he was chained to a tree with only about a 8 ft chain which was tangled. This is not against the law yet in Tennessee so nothing I can do but try and educate the owners that dogs deserve better and hope they do the right thing. Even if chaining was against the law I believe you should take each case on it's own merits and not throw everyone that chains their dog into a bad light. I get ridiculed for this in my professional circles but this is what I believe. In general it is not the best thing to chain a dog but in certain circumstances it can be OK so I am against wide ranging laws on the subject. I would however like to see laws that give ACI's the latitude to hold someone responsible if the chaining is negligent or harmful to the dog. Most people do the right thing with education and a helping hand but some need to go before a judge and answer for their behavior.

Now that the case has dragged out in the courts, I am hearing reports that many of the free loading vulters and scavengers who were only too glad to take what they thought were FREE animals and free fed paid for with this woman's bond money that has now run out are whinning and crying about having to pay for feed these animals out or their own pockets.

I'm not totally sure who you are referring to as "freeloading vultures or scavengers" but if you are talking about local rescue groups or people who take in the animals to provide care until a court date which can take months to years. Tennessee just did pass a law that says that the individual does have to pay for care of the animals to the Rescue Groups that cared for them if they are found guilty. To give you and example: We went on a "horse dead in field" call a few weeks ago. The dead horse was a bag of bones literally and it was evident it had been starved. The 80X80 lot it was in was mud and had no grass for graze and the surviving 4 year old horse was about 200lbs under weight. Instead of taking a legal course to seize the horse I offered to buy the surviving horse. Consider that people are giving away horses in our county because they can't afford to feed them because of the hay shortage. My purpose was to just get the horse out of those conditions in the easiest and fastest way possible. He quoted a price, our Humane Society wrote the check and the next day he was getting checked out by a Vet and put on a weight gain diet and is warm and safe from harm. Our goal as ACI is to do the best for the animal not prosecute people although that is always an option if the situation merits it. So money or expense is not always an issue. We just want to help the animal that is suffering and in danger.

The other issue is that these animals ARE in FACT PRIVATE PROPERTY.......PERIOD.

Unfortunately our society does by and large consider living creatures "Private Property" to do with what they will. Our society in the past has also consider human beings "Private Property". That changed so I guess we still have hope for the rest of God's Creatures too.

Our experience is that these so called "animal rights" and "Humane Organizations" are ALL for humane treatment and animal rights as long as it is at someone elses expense.

Most local Animal Protection Organizations are non profit and run on a shoe string budget. As the President of our local Humane Society I do encourage people to help by fostering animals until they can be adopted. I also ask them to pay part of the medical costs of getting the critter ready for adoption. Domesticated animals especially dogs and cats are a societal problem so I ask society to share in the burden in helping them when possible. Some people are more than willing to do this, some could care less and are just trying to get rid of a problem and some are incapable of helping due to their personal situation.

Furthmore, most people has absolutely NO IDEA of how drackonian and oppressive the animal cruelty laws are in TN and I suspect most other states. You may not realize it but ANYONE can be charged with animal cruelty for things that most farmers have done as a traditional farming practice for generations and not even realize they are breaking the law.

On the contrary the animal laws in Tennessee are minimum at best. Just recently have the laws been amended to more accurately reflect the seriousness of the crime in relation to animal protection. People who mistreat animals are very likely to mistreat people. Most frequently their spouse or children. Most states do not have adequate penalties for cruelty to animals most just equalling a slap on the wrist. Traditional and accepted farming and hunting practices are exempt from animal cruelty laws in the state of Tennessee.

The latest and greatest animal rights do gooder stupidity is the horse legislation that makes it illegal to slaughter horses for meat in the US. Now not only are the same horses now slaughtered in an even MORE inhumane fashion in Mexico and Canada, they get to have a sardine can packed truck ride to the slaughter house out of country, not to mention the lose of American jobs.

The next phase of this legislation is to prevent the transport of these noble creatures to Mexico and Canada for slaughter. I hope it goes through soon. I think more about the lives of these horses than the appetites of Frenchmen.

I hope this has answered some of your questions or at least given you another perspective on these issues. I hope our culture only goes further to protect all living things. As a Christian I believe God gave us the earth and all that's in it and asked us to be good stewards over all that he gave us. I think this applies to everything. I think we should be as kind as possible to all living creatures. As a child I was taught that when hunting you should only take kill shots to prevent the animal from suffering and that you should give thanks for that animal giving its life for our benefit. Even though I don't hunt anymore I try to follow these simple rules of life that we should all follow.

[HumaneSocietySteve]

Hey,

Can anyone give me some better directions on how to post a picture or logo as your personal icon. I am a member of many forums but have never had to do this in the way the BHM forum directs you to.

Thanks in advance

[pergammano]

Ohmigosh...my heart dropped into my stomach when I read this post.

You seem so focused on the money....the breed that will make you the most money!

I foster dogs & cats. Many of them have come from breeders interested in money, pets end up going to the wrong homes, because they are the "designer" pets of today! I abhor the thought of another "puppy mill" in the works.

[gardenfay]

I don't really think a guy having one female dog qualifies as a puppy mill. . .

[pergammano]

I hear ya, gardenfay, but it was the way that the question was asked, that lead me down that path! ???

[WRTN]

Just a follow up to the story on the so called abused animals.

Once the county and sheriff department discovered that the cost of feeding the "abused animals" would come out of their OWN pockets.................the court held in latest seccion ordered ALL of the animals returned to this "evil, mean, and dispicable animal abuser".

As it turns out the sheriff admitted in court that his department had made "several blunders" in handling this case.

The dead animal it was determined has died of this really strange ailment.............old age.

The one animal pictured in the sheriff department pictures was a 21 year old mare who had given birth very recently and this is a VERY normal result of such a birth to an old mare.

We own 2 horses and they are indeed loving and majestic animals. When legislation gets passed outlawing transport of horses to Mexico or Canada.................you can expect people to just turn these horses loose to fend for themselves. I suppose you will then push to pass legislation that will forcibly require horse owners as well as pet owners to install micro-chips so these animals can be traced back to the owner?

Another point to consider is, if such legisation is suitable for horses..................then it is only logical to apply it to cattle, hogs, fish, and fowl as well right? These animals raised for food are slaughtered in the same fashion the horse legislation mandates stopping?

Unfortunately when "Big Brother" sticks his nose in places our constitution forbids; the results are NEVER good.

When government colludes with private business to abuse individual liberties the result is even worse. This slope is so steep and slippery that it is more like a free fall. What rests at the bottom of this slippery slope and fall is even more repugnant than the animal abuse it aims to end. Liberal Facsist Socialism does not suit this nation well.

HumaneSocietySteve, I'll just say you make my point for me far better than I ever could.

[sillymom]

I have a friend who breeds dogs and is very picky on who she sells to. Her main perpus is a good lasting home and if it don't work out they are to come back to her.

I have pocket Rotties

Toy Rottes are different, yet similar, to the Carlin Pinschers, which are also called Muggins. Though, Carlin Pinschers/Muggins are bred from a Pug & a Min Pin, which are breeds may be more difficult to train and/or have some aggression problems. Most Carlin Pinschers tend to get a rather narrow build.



We use other, more specialized breeds to create our Toy Rottes. Our sire is a Pekinese, Pug/Peke cross.. Which are easier to train, and more blocky built then Pugs. Our dams are Toy Tekese, which are bred from Rat Terriers, Doxies, and Pekes.. Which are very smart, loving, full of personality, adorable dogs!

Our Toy Rottes should mostly mature around 8 to 9 inches tall, with some being a little smaller, and some a little larger. Mostly weighing from 7 to 12 pounds.

Toy Rottes are somewhat energetic, athletic, very small, shorter haired dogs, with the look of a Rottweiler, only far smaller! They get along well with other pets & children. Loving, sweet, playful, and very smart! Stocky builds, large heads for their size, and docked tails.

so far my friend has had no problem selling her pups for 800.00

So if you want to get into breeding make sure you are willing to take back the pups if it don't work out.

Sillymom