Modern Farming

[Cat Lover]

I've been comparing what I have heard from 'homesteaders' with my actual farming experiences .... many of which were in 'less developed' parts of the world. Here are my thoughts:

First off, the idea that you can just sit back and haphazzardly let 'nature' work is a prescription for poverty and failure. Both plan your work, then work your plan.

Second, take the time to LEARN before you leap. Then you can make a plan that you have a realistic chance of successfully completing. For example, learn not only what will grow in your climate, also learn the growing schedules. Not everything ripens at the same time; the idea is to have a steady flow of work, not just a seasonal frenzy.

Third, put away those "Foxfire" books. Charming as the 'old ways' are, they're not adequate. Maybe you think you 'can't afford' soem technology; I'll tell you right now you can't afford not to use it.
A prime example is irrigation in general, and drip irrigation in particular. These are investments that will not only tide you over hard (weather-wise) times, they will greatly improve your productivity in the good years. A similar thing can be said for greenhouses / hoop houses / whatever you want to call them.

Fourth, never understimate your 'infrastructure' requirements. You need sheltered places to work, to repair, to make things. You need places to handle / process your production. Note that I spoke in the plural; you'll need more than one. You can't butcher your chickens or milk your cows in the same place you rebuilt your carburator.

Along with that is the idea of 'not putting all your eggs in one basket.' If you're planning on more than just cooking dinner, you need to have a cookhouse separate from the house you sleep in. Having a separate place for, say, canning means that all the vermin problem will be there - and if, heaven forbid, there's a fire, you won't lose your home.

Which brings us to point five: Safety. A farm is like Outer Space, in that no one can hear you scream. If there's a fire, the fire brigade will get there just in time to help you hose the ashes off the foundation. If your self-designed roof collapses under the snow, your body won't be found until someone buys your farm in a few years, at a tax sale. My point is that not only CAN things go wrong, they DO go wrong. Make sure that you are able to cope when that happens.

Sixth is: You're going to need cash, and lots of it, eventually. Ever notice that even the most self-contained communities have some means of generating income - and accounts in which to save it? From the time you plant to the day you get paid at least 6 months will pass; in many cases, an entire year. With fruit trees, it will be five years before you see any real income. In the meantime, you need to eat.

[AlchemyAcres]

I've been comparing what I have heard from 'homesteaders' with my actual farming experiences .... many of which were in 'less developed' parts of the world. Here are my thoughts:

First off, the idea that you can just sit back and haphazzardly let 'nature' work is a prescription for poverty and failure. Both plan your work, then work your plan.

Second, take the time to LEARN before you leap. Then you can make a plan that you have a realistic chance of successfully completing. For example, learn not only what will grow in your climate, also learn the growing schedules. Not everything ripens at the same time; the idea is to have a steady flow of work, not just a seasonal frenzy.

Third, put away those "Foxfire" books. Charming as the 'old ways' are, they're not adequate. Maybe you think you 'can't afford' soem technology; I'll tell you right now you can't afford not to use it.
A prime example is irrigation in general, and drip irrigation in particular. These are investments that will not only tide you over hard (weather-wise) times, they will greatly improve your productivity in the good years. A similar thing can be said for greenhouses / hoop houses / whatever you want to call them.

Fourth, never understimate your 'infrastructure' requirements. You need sheltered places to work, to repair, to make things. You need places to handle / process your production. Note that I spoke in the plural; you'll need more than one. You can't butcher your chickens or milk your cows in the same place you rebuilt your carburator.

Along with that is the idea of 'not putting all your eggs in one basket.' If you're planning on more than just cooking dinner, you need to have a cookhouse separate from the house you sleep in. Having a separate place for, say, canning means that all the vermin problem will be there - and if, heaven forbid, there's a fire, you won't lose your home.

Which brings us to point five: Safety. A farm is like Outer Space, in that no one can hear you scream. If there's a fire, the fire brigade will get there just in time to help you hose the ashes off the foundation. If your self-designed roof collapses under the snow, your body won't be found until someone buys your farm in a few years, at a tax sale. My point is that not only CAN things go wrong, they DO go wrong. Make sure that you are able to cope when that happens.

Sixth is: You're going to need cash, and lots of it, eventually. Ever notice that even the most self-contained communities have some means of generating income - and accounts in which to save it? From the time you plant to the day you get paid at least 6 months will pass; in many cases, an entire year. With fruit trees, it will be five years before you see any real income. In the meantime, you need to eat.

HUH???

Just curious....What are your actual farming experiences?



~Martin

[Cat Lover]

A fair question.

I grew up surrounded by family farm, raising grains - though there was one dairy op.

For myself, I've had a fairly good-sized 'market garden,' about 1/6th acre in size, frowing a variety of produce.

I actually spent some time in a monastary, growing nuts and milking cows for income.

I've tended both fruit orchards and groves, year-round. I've raised vine crops (kiwi and grapes). Ironically, I have not tended the grains that I grew up around.

I've milked cows (200 head operation), tended those cows, raised various kinds of chickens, know where turkeys really come from, even harvested fish on a fish farm.

I've trod the fields with the bug expert, then loaded up the crop-dusting ultralight for the treatments.

I've harvested cotton (not picked), and gathered peanut hay (heavy!). Mention the abnana harvest to me, and you might learn a few new words.

To be fair, nearly all of these 'farms' were more of a co-operative effort, with multiple families involved. They generally also had some sort of manufacturing enterprise - from simple wood furniture to making car windshields. Most were moderately profitable; one had some serious issues.

Though this is rather irrelevant; I believe ideas ought to be able to stand on their own. I've encountered far too many 'farmers,' though, who had no idea there were different types of chicken coops (for different reasons), or that apples and cherries have wildly different harvest times.

I note that BHM has had a long relationship with Jackie Clay. Considering the bredth of topics that she writes on, if you read between the lines .... I think you'll conclude that her life is an interlocking weave of various activities. That's by necessity; it can't work any other way.

[TSJ]

Hi Cat Lover:

I think there is a difference between homesteading and modern farming/large scale food production.

A lot of homesteading is just being more self reliant and concentrating on "disaster proofing" oneself. Whereas modern farming is a disaster waiting to happen. What I mean by that is modern farming can be subject to the vaguaries of global markets and government agricultural/price support policies. This is an anathema to most of the people that post here. However there are a few people here that do farm. For example, Paul in Kansas raises cattle for a living. IIRC, Alchemy Acres cuts and sells firewood, etc.

In America, you can get by in living out on the country w/o having all sorts of equipment and infrastructure. in fact, a lot of people have jobs they drive to every day. They just want to have a more self reliant lifestyle. Can their own food, raise some animals, etc.

It seems to me that is what this forum is all about.

[patience]

Cat Lover has some good points about using technology and other things. I grew up on a farm, and later had a 45 acre place that was a subsistence farm plus made furniture to sell from the farm timber. At various times we have made a garden with a farm tractor, one of those rototillers that feels like riding a paint shaker, and for 12 years, with a team of Percherons who also did the logging and farmed for their own feed.

In my mind it comes down to the scale of operation you have and what is appropriate there. I have a heavy duty garden tractor for our one acre lot, a quarter of which is in assorted gardens and orchard. My daughter has 32 acres of hills and hollows that will eventually be farmed and logged with horses. My farm repair shop does work for many farmers that work 200 head of dairy, or 2 million broiler chickens/year, or farm 500 to 5,000 acres of grain. One way is not appropriate for all of us.

I agree that the Foxfire Book's ways are the hard way for most things. Have 8 of those books--there may be more now. But there are things to learn in them, particularly for worst-case scenarios. I also believe that the US is headed for something like 3rd world status in at least some areas due to economic debacles, and in such a situation, some old ways may keep people from starving.

I have a nice bicycle that I ride in nice weather mostly for fun, but in dire circumstance, I can hook on the home made bike trailer and run an errand if need be. Meanwhile, I'll drive my small truck and spend my personal energy and time at pursuits that net me more benefit. It's a CYA thing.

It's cheaper in money for me to buy veggies at the store, but I prefer what we raise because I can be assured of what I am eating. And it pays better than what is obvious, since the benefits are not all tangible, nor taxable. Each has to make their own choices on these things, and many will do so for very diffrent reasons.

I think the most important point is to make those decisions on an informed basis, and know the risks, costs, labor and investment for what you intend to do. I don't like unpleasant surprises!

[sbemt456]

Catlover I think you are comparing apples to oranges here. Homesteading is more along the lines of working toward self sufficiency. What you elude to in your experience is more of what most consider commercial farming.
Toss my foxfire books, no way. The old ways are still the best. I will take that way of life any day over the fast paced life that many are trying to get away from.

Have a great day!

stella

[Travis]

I totally disagree with point #2 leap and learn at the same time is my motto. If I learned all I could about gardening from a book then I'd never plant a seed.

[NCLee]

I've been comparing what I have heard from 'homesteaders' with my actual farming experiences .... many of which were in 'less developed' parts of the world. Here are my thoughts:
I grew up on a small farm that produced tobacco, corn, cotton, soybeans, and wheat. While I left the farm when I got married, I've still been involved with farming off and on all my life.

First off, the idea that you can just sit back and haphazzardly let 'nature' work is a prescription for poverty and failure. Both plan your work, then work your plan. This applies to any endeavor, regardless of whether it's farming, manufacturing, or retail sales. (Been involved with all 3 aspects.)

Second, take the time to LEARN before you leap. Then you can make a plan that you have a realistic chance of successfully completing. For example, learn not only what will grow in your climate, also learn the growing schedules. Not everything ripens at the same time; the idea is to have a steady flow of work, not just a seasonal frenzy. Agree that learning what you can before you leap is important. However, at least in this area, "seasonal frenzy" is just a part of farm life. Sure, there's a lull in the frenzy during the winter. That's the time to do the odds and ends that make the growing season more successful. When the weather warms up, spring planting "frenzy" begins. The crops have to go into the ground at the right time. Sure, there are some lulls as it may be 2 weeks between planting "A" and planting "B". Then, the pace does slow down during the growing period, depending on how labor intensive each crop is with regards to it's requirements for cultivating, weeding, pest control, etc.

When it's time to harvest, the frenzy probably reaches the highest point. Mature crops have to be harvested as soon as possible in order to save them. Leaving out all the other reasons, a storm and take out an entire crop in a single afternoon. I've seen it happen.

Third, put away those "Foxfire" books. Charming as the 'old ways' are, they're not adequate. Maybe you think you 'can't afford' soem technology; I'll tell you right now you can't afford not to use it.
A prime example is irrigation in general, and drip irrigation in particular. These are investments that will not only tide you over hard (weather-wise) times, they will greatly improve your productivity in the good years. A similar thing can be said for greenhouses / hoop houses / whatever you want to call them.

I disagree completely with the idea of putting aside those "Foxfire" books. Your first point was that people need to learn before they leap. It's like saying put away the Constitution and Declaration of Independence because we have modern laws to govern. Foxfire books and others like them, have the basics to build upon, even when using the most modern farming techniques and equipment. Within in them is the understanding of how things worked / grew / and transpired/transformed over time.

I lived, during my childhood, some of the things covered in those books. Remember, well, when my Mom cooked on a woodstove and used a washboard to clean clothing. Remember well, when my Dad used mules for some of the farm work. Because I do remember those things, believe that knowledge has led me to work more efficiently today.

Fourth, never understimate your 'infrastructure' requirements. You need sheltered places to work, to repair, to make things. You need places to handle / process your production. Note that I spoke in the plural; you'll need more than one. You can't butcher your chickens or milk your cows in the same place you rebuilt your carburator. Again, I agree with you to some extent. It all depends on what you're doing on your farm. And, yes, I agree that for a farming operation, multiple buildings are needed. However, the point I'd like to make is that many of these buildings can be multi-function.

We had one building on our farm that we called the "strip room". That was a term used in preparing tobacco for market in the days before bulk processing came about. It was also the laundry room, where laundry was done with a wringer type washing machine. It was also where butchering was done when hogs were killed. It was also where pork was salt cured and the meat was hung after curing. With the exception of the tobacco curing barns, most building were multi-function as the seasons passed.

For example the "pack house" first held bagged wheat before it went to market. Next came cured tobacco before it was prepped for market. As the tobacco came out, cotton went in. That was followed by the corn harvest. Multiple buildings weren't needed for those crops because of the progression of the harvest.

Continued.......

[NCLee]

Along with that is the idea of 'not putting all your eggs in one basket.' If you're planning on more than just cooking dinner, you need to have a cookhouse separate from the house you sleep in. Having a separate place for, say, canning means that all the vermin problem will be there - and if, heaven forbid, there's a fire, you won't lose your home. Here I strongly disagree with you. A summer kitchen is nice to have to keep the heat out of the house in the summer and to have a larger working area. But it isn't a necessity for canning.

Don't understand your comment about "vermin". I don't have any "vermin" in my kitchen when I'm canning. Sure, I might spot a corn borer when shucking corn. Or, other garden pests that came along for the ride. All easily dispatched, as the food is processed.

The fire risk is no more for canning than it is for any other food prep operation. I run the same low risk regardless of whether I'm canning or making a stew for supper.

Having a separate "cookhouse" came about because in the days when cooking was done in fireplaces and on woodstoves, the risk of fire in the kitchen was higher than today. And, to keep the heat from those fires out of the main house during the summer. (A bit of info that's probably in one of the FoxFire books, btw. ;-) )

Which brings us to point five: Safety. A farm is like Outer Space, in that no one can hear you scream. If there's a fire, the fire brigade will get there just in time to help you hose the ashes off the foundation. If your self-designed roof collapses under the snow, your body won't be found until someone buys your farm in a few years, at a tax sale. My point is that not only CAN things go wrong, they DO go wrong. Make sure that you are able to cope when that happens. While I understand your point, farming is no different from any other activity. Whether it's logging, mining, manufacturing, even retail sales, each has their own degree of risk and things that can go wrong. Granted, with each the risks are different.

BTW, neighbors called the fire department, when we lost a packhouse due to a lightening strike. Year before last, a neighbor had to stop the fire department from trying to put out his controlled burn. Other neighbors spotted the smoke and called them. Now he calls all the neighbors and the fire department before he begins a controlled burn. :)

Sixth is: You're going to need cash, and lots of it, eventually. Ever notice that even the most self-contained communities have some means of generating income - and accounts in which to save it? From the time you plant to the day you get paid at least 6 months will pass; in many cases, an entire year. With fruit trees, it will be five years before you see any real income. In the meantime, you need to eat. Not necessarily. It all depends on the farming operation and the diversity of that operation. Yes, some cash is needed. And, sometimes arrangements have to be made with bankers and feed/seed stores. But, overall, you may be surprised at how little cash is needed on a small self-suficient family farm.

We didn't have much cash when I was growing up. But, I ate better then, than I do now. Due to the diversity of the crops, we had a steady income from June to December. (Sure there were crop failures from time to time.) Learning to manage the available cash is, IMHO, equally if not more important than the amount of cash on hand.

Sorry, this post is so long. Thanks for bearing with me, as I share my thoughts on the topic.

Lee

[AlchemyAcres]

Set a quality of life goal and work towards that goal.

It's counter-productive to argue about overly generalized "tools" needed to reach that goal.

Everyone's goals, resources, tools, abilities and motivations are different.

Address the root cause of any problem rather than a symptom.
Focus attention on the area which is slowing progress towards the goal.
Consider all the possible options available.
Make the decision that is going to provide the best overall return of all the options available.
Obtain resources from sound sources.
Use those resources in sound ways.
Act at the best possible time.
Ensure that any action taken will be sustainable.
Be satisfied that the action we propose taking also sits well with our feeling or intuition about the matter.

Plan! Monitor! Control! Replan!


~Martin

[Cat Lover]

I appreciate the civility and the thought that was gone into many of the replies. I'm also willing to consider that my 'buttons were pushed' by some comments I've heard recently. Maybe I ought to recap some of these comments:

"Use a turkey fryer." I have heard this quite a bit, and for things not involving trukeys. For example, canning - where a very big kettle is put on simmer for quite some time. I'd appreciate it if you took a moment to watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kspx1oOP_fE
Even if you're not boiling flammable oil, the tip hazard is very real, and those things are real carbon-monoxide generators. Hence, I don't like the idea of using one either in the kitchen or on the porch.

Vermin are a fact of life for any kitchen. Even of your place is spotlessly clean and free of vermin today, the battle to keep them out never ends. Depending on where you are, 'vermin' can be everything from a little mold to a hungry bear. If you're doing stuff in quantity - as you'll be when you're canning - the attraction is all the greater. If you're bringing in produce fresh from the field, you'll be carrying the bugs in with you. Personally, I'd rather not have the critters have easy access to the rest of the house as well.

Ironic, isn't it? I start the thread saying "modern," then suggest we take a step back - or do I?

Think, instead, of that cookhouse as your 'factory.' Now it's not such an old-fashioned idea after all.

[AlchemyAcres]

Out-of-control Turkey Fryers?
Scary Bugs?

Maybe the lifestyle isn't for you.

And....

Be careful around those ladders!!!!
Make sure the water heater is turned down to 120 degrees or less to avoid scalding!!!!
And for goodness sakes...blow out those candles before leaving a room!!!

:jester:



~Martin

[nhlivefreeordie]

Better to stay in the womb, the world is a scary place and you may get a bump or bruise.
Sometimes people see things through modern eyes that others will scoff at and dismiss, because they know a lot of the safety concerns today are more restrictive than they are worth and actually hinder your ability to provide for yourself. Helmets for riding a bike??..give me a break, parents all over the world placing helmets on their kids before they ride a bike, yet because of that helmet think they have done all they need to protect them....wrong. How many actual accidents happen where the helmet is the difference between life and death.

[MooseToo]

Set a quality of life goal and work towards that goal.

It's counter-productive to argue about overly generalized "tools" needed to reach that goal.

Everyone's goals, resources, tools, abilities and motivations are different.

Address the root cause of any problem rather than a symptom.
Focus attention on the area which is slowing progress towards the goal.
Consider all the possible options available.
Make the decision that is going to provide the best overall return of all the options available.
Obtain resources from sound sources.
Use those resources in sound ways.
Act at the best possible time.
Ensure that any action taken will be sustainable.
Be satisfied that the action we propose taking also sits well with our feeling or intuition about the matter.

Plan! Monitor! Control! Replan!


~Martin

i'll add - absorb the activity of others like a sponge - and, take their failures as well as your own as a priceless learning experience -

this thread exemplifies just why i place so much value on this forum - we ALWAYS have the opportunity to see a dozen or more, not just two, sides of every coin - and only the blind will fail to profit from the exposure to all the knowledge others provide -

[jebrown]

I am very surprised at the video since it cme from the Underwriters laboratory.
Many facts were rearranged. Along with common sense.
In the begining they put a turkey in the hot fryer and it boils over. They tell you that it is a partialy frozen turkey. Every knows what happens when water is put into hot cooking oil. Water in the liquid state or ice state is still water.
That is what caused it to boil over not being overfilled. However if there is too much oil in the fryer yes it will spill over too.
Next he intentionaly pushes it over with his hand. You can us your hands and push over your kitchen stove too. Some models are more stable than others . One is supposed to use common sense when working around hot cooking devices.
Better not use a wood burning stove or a charcoal grill to cook with. Neither one of them have a temperature regulator either. Don't fry anything on a stove as the skillet doesn't have a temperature sensor either.
Most of the time you are going to set up your cooking device where you want to cook with it at. You usualy don't pick it up and move a hot cooking device.
Yes it will burn your hands if you try to move it with your bare hands. Common sense should come into play here.
Candles and turkey fryers as with any other heating or cooking devices will not for the most part cause a fire unless it has a defective part or is misused by someone.
Cars will not crash into each other if both drivers are paying aattention to what they are doing or the car has defective parts.
As opposed to a fake carbon monoxide generator. It is an open flame cooking device. One should know better than to use it in a confined space.
Very big kettles used for boiling or simmering water while canning are safe to use. Again the key issue is "proper use".
Better not use a knife to cut food, you could cut your finger. I know it has happened to me.
Vermin come into your houe from the grocery store. They come in with the grocery bags. More so if you use paper bags instead of plastic. That is one of the reasons grocery stores started using plastic bags. Yes there are other issues too.
All of this boils down to using common sense as with evrything you do in life.

Jerry

[Terri]

Farming is just about the most dangerous profession there is. We have all heard the stories: accept that, ALWAYS use your head, and move on.

Yes, knowledge is needed but you cannot learn everything before you start a project: there is ALWAYS a learning curve! So give a good faith effort to learn and then get your hands dirty. You WILL learn!!!!!!!! LOL!

[MissouriFree]

I appreciate the civility and the thought that was gone into many of the replies. I'm also willing to consider that my 'buttons were pushed' by some comments I've heard recently. Maybe I ought to recap some of these comments:

"Use a turkey fryer." I have heard this quite a bit, and for things not involving trukeys. For example, canning - where a very big kettle is put on simmer for quite some time. I'd appreciate it if you took a moment to watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kspx1oOP_fE
Even if you're not boiling flammable oil, the tip hazard is very real, and those things are real carbon-monoxide generators. Hence, I don't like the idea of using one either in the kitchen or on the porch.

Vermin are a fact of life for any kitchen. Even of your place is spotlessly clean and free of vermin today, the battle to keep them out never ends. Depending on where you are, 'vermin' can be everything from a little mold to a hungry bear. If you're doing stuff in quantity - as you'll be when you're canning - the attraction is all the greater. If you're bringing in produce fresh from the field, you'll be carrying the bugs in with you. Personally, I'd rather not have the critters have easy access to the rest of the house as well.

Ironic, isn't it? I start the thread saying "modern," then suggest we take a step back - or do I?

Think, instead, of that cookhouse as your 'factory.' Now it's not such an old-fashioned idea after all.


Thanks for the video.. We have one but have never used it.

I got interested and went out and looked for instructions fromt the various manufacturers.
its seems that the video did not explain what can cause the fire.
If people follow the rules it should work fine.
Bird must be dried and thawed not partially thawed as he admitted in the video. - equals stupid. the water is what caused the flame up. All the instructions I saw at the various manufacters all emphasised that. In fact one of the instructions even showed the same video you did.
The instrucion also cautioned against tipping ( duh !!) , having a flamable items around the a open flame ( duh !).

but I guess that is UL's mandate to protect against stupidness. But I am not sure that the fryer is inherrently more dangerous than an electric outlet if the rules are followed, is it ? Iwonder if the UL guys follwed the instructions ?


anyway thanks again for the video..


OPPS didn't see jebs reply .. sorry jeb but I feel same as you. DUH! seems to cover my thoughts.

[firegirl969]

Better to stay in the womb, the world is a scary place and you may get a bump or bruise.
Sometimes people see things through modern eyes that others will scoff at and dismiss, because they know a lot of the safety concerns today are more restrictive than they are worth and actually hinder your ability to provide for yourself. Helmets for riding a bike??..give me a break, parents all over the world placing helmets on their kids before they ride a bike, yet because of that helmet think they have done all they need to protect them....wrong. How many actual accidents happen where the helmet is the difference between life and death.

I fit bicycle helmets for under-privileged kids through a grant I receive each year from our Governor's Office of Highway Safety. I looked up statistics for bicycle helmet use and this is just an example of what I found, FYI: "Non-helmeted riders are 14 times more likely to be involved in a fatal crash than helmeted riders." and "A very high percentage of cyclists' brain injuries can be prevented by a helmet, estimated at anywhere from 45 to 88 per cent."

[nhlivefreeordie]

I fit bicycle helmets for under-privileged kids through a grant I receive each year from our Governor's Office of Highway Safety. I looked up statistics for bicycle helmet use and this is just an example of what I found, FYI: "Non-helmeted riders are 14 times more likely to be involved in a fatal crash than helmeted riders." and "A very high percentage of cyclists' brain injuries can be prevented by a helmet, estimated at anywhere from 45 to 88 per cent."

How many actually happen, not likely to happen, who paid for the study?

I do not know one person who has been in a bicycle accident and suffered brain injury.

What is the number of actual accidents compared to the number of riders, I think you will find you have a much better chance of being struck by lightening.

[nhlivefreeordie]

A Generation Tethered to their Helicopter Parents:
Over-Protective Child-Rearing Ruining Kids' Lives

A childhood without a skinned knee? A college co-ed phoning her mom at midnight over a term paper? A parent going with his son on a job interview? These scenarios are so common today that professionals working with Gen Y (those born between 1980 and 1999) have coined a few terms for overprotective child rearing:

"The Tethered Generation." This term, first used in HR Magazine, refers to young people who have to be in constant contact with their parents and each other via cellphones and Instant Message. A teen's life becomes a continuous voice recording to Mom and Dad. The conversations are completely trivial and never-ending: "I'm getting out of class now and I'm on my way to the cafeteria." "Dad, can you do this job application?" "Mom, what should I do about my crappy roommate? Today she wouldn't empty the garbage."

The "tethered generation" has no sense of human boundaries - no sense of where one life begins and another ends. There is no sense of space on MySpace: everything from how you got drunk the night before to details of your mall experience is written up for public consumption. Everything is communicated and nothing is personal or private. Just as you know everything about Brad and Angelina, so you know everything about the lives of your friends.

"Helicopter Parents." This phrase invented by authors Neil Howe and William Strauss refers to parents who constantly hover over their child in search of dangers. If anything, no matter how trivial, upsets their ward, they swoop down to fix it. This means they meet with teachers over a failing test grade, they negotiate raises with their teen's employer, they "fix" messy break-ups with their teen's lover, they write term papers and college applications - and on and on.

"Childhood without Play." There are no more pick-up baseball games or playing dolls under big trees. Childhood is all about Scouts, Little League, piano lessons and Story Hour. Children never get to play freely with other children - there is always adult supervision. This means they don't learn to be "streetwise" by exploring and roaming their neighborhoods. Supervised play also has the effect of cushioning children against the natural and sometimes nasty give-and-take between peers - a process that provides valuable life lessons. Children need to learn how to negotiate their own disagreements and choose their natural leaders.

"Childhood without End." If age sixty is the new forty, then twenty is the new ten. Because parents are infantilizing adolescents by making even the smallest decisions for them, childhood is extending well past age twenty. For example, in 1960, 65% of males and 77% of females were married, through school, holding down jobs, and in their own homes by age 30. Today that's true of only 31% of the males and 46% of females.

Therapists, teachers and other professionals working with Gen Y point to such overly protective child-rearing practices as the reason that so many teens are at risk for depression, anxiety disorders, and binge drinking.

"This has been the most protected generation in history," says Mark Thompson, director of counseling at Colgate University. He points to car seats, bicycle helmets, and even wood chips under park swings. Because Gen Y has been reared in a "risk adverse" way, they tend to be psychologically fragile, robbed of their own identities, and unable to feel a real sense of accomplishment for their efforts.

http://www.aspeneducation.com/Article-helicopter-parents.html

[MissouriFree]

nhlivefreeordie.

Great article.

I wonder if that is why america has become a Nanny society-


MO

[nhlivefreeordie]

nhlivefreeordie.

Great article.

I wonder if that is why america has become a Nanny society-


MO

MO,
Just sit back and think of all the activities you did as a child, and what has been banned, prohibited, or wrapped in padding and helmets since then. It is amazing young adults just don't decide to stay safely wrapped in their blankies instead of going out and killing something and dragging it home.....or is that the intent of all of this social engineering?

[AzLoneRider]

MO,
Just sit back and think of all the activities you did as a child, and what has been banned, prohibited, or wrapped in padding and helmets since then. It is amazing young adults just don't decide to stay safely wrapped in their blankies instead of going out and killing something and dragging it home.....or is that the intent of all of this social engineering?

The social networking sites that we have today are exactly that. They enable people to be shallow, to be self centered and to "live" life without actually living life. They have virtual farms, virtual pets, a virtual self in a virtual game living a life that is not reality. You can now "experience" these things without getting up from your couch. The town is alwas clean, the farm is always nice with no weeds, or predators. Everybodys happy,

Don't get me wrong the social networking sites are a powerful tool if kept in perspective. Now relate my previous paragraph to the original post. The original post, brought to mind decisions that must be made, do you want to go large scale food production or do you want to go market garden, homestead type property. On the social network sites, you are presented with all the positives and none of the minuses.

An example of what I am talking about are kitchens in houses. Compare kitchens today with kitchens from the past. Even though houses were smaller the kitchens of yesteryear were setup to process foods brought in from the garden and put it in storage. Todays kitchens are desingned to pull something out of the refrigerator and put it in the microwave so you can get back to your computer and harvest that acre of vitual corn......

I moved around a bit in this post, however if you look at society today that is what a large % of the population does. There is no thought to how to make the production areas of you property better because todays properties are for the most part small, and for sleeping and eating. People go to work, the bar, then home to jump online for awhile then off to bed so the process can be done all over again.

If I hi-jacked the thread I apologize.

[MissouriFree]

MO,
Just sit back and think of all the activities you did as a child, and what has been banned, prohibited, or wrapped in padding and helmets since then. It is amazing young adults just don't decide to stay safely wrapped in their blankies instead of going out and killing something and dragging it home.....or is that the intent of all of this social engineering?



yep , that is it. I wonder what the " protecters" would think about me as kind having a my own 22 when I was 8 and getting mny first shot gun for my 11th birthday.

[DM]

I got my first shotgun at about the same age, and i still have it. Even at that age, i'd walk out the door in the morning with my shotgun, and hear my mom calling after me, "make sure your home for supper", and off i'd go, just me, my shotgun and our dog".

We would walk/hunt for miles in what ever direction i felt like going. I'd clean everything i shot, and drink out of the streams as i got thirsty... It sure was a "cruel and unsafe" way to have to grow up... lol lol

DM

[AlchemyAcres]

I miss Jarts!!!!

http://i49.tinypic.com/14ax8h4.jpg

I say we take the warning labels off everything and let nature take it's course!!!!

Maybe folks would actually start thinking for themselves!!!

~Martin :D

[nhlivefreeordie]

I got my first shotgun at about the same age, and i still have it. Even at that age, i'd walk out the door in the morning with my shotgun, and hear my mom calling after me, "make sure your home for supper", and off i'd go, just me, my shotgun and our dog".

We would walk/hunt for miles in what ever direction i felt like going. I'd clean everything i shot, and drink out of the streams as i got thirsty... It sure was a "cruel and unsafe" way to have to grow up... lol lol

DM

Two of the boys, ages 4 and 5.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/dj88ryr/img035.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/dj88ryr/img034.jpg

[Terri]

Even though houses were smaller the kitchens of yesteryear were setup to process foods brought in from the garden and put it in storage. Todays kitchens are desingned to pull something out of the refrigerator and put it in the microwave so you can get back to your computer and harvest that acre of vitual corn......

Not my kitchen, LOL!

We went to visit the new houses n a subdivision during an open house. The kitchens were huge and lovely and equipped with pantrys, but, they were more set up for looks than for cooking. I cannot explain that statement, but, they WERE!

It mmight have been because I was thinking of stains and chips on those granite counter tops, the number of extra steps in cooking, and so forth. I cannot REALLY put my finger on it, but, I do not think those kitchens were meant to be used for more than pouring cereal and putting frozen dinners in the oven.

[MissouriFree]

I got my first shotgun at about the same age, and i still have it. Even at that age, i'd walk out the door in the morning with my shotgun, and hear my mom calling after me, "make sure your home for supper", and off i'd go, just me, my shotgun and our dog".

We would walk/hunt for miles in what ever direction i felt like going. I'd clean everything i shot, and drink out of the streams as i got thirsty... It sure was a "cruel and unsafe" way to have to grow up... lol lol

DM

yep that is the way it was me , my dogs and my guns on our 120 acre southern illinois hill farm. Gosh I even messed with fish hooks. of course we had no TV .

[LeatherneckPA]

I do not know one person who has been in a bicycle accident and suffered brain injury.My younger brother Kenny was a fantastic mechanic, even at age 11. He could fix ANY damage we did to our bicycles during our two-wheeled demolition derbies or using our secret jump ramp (secret 'cause Dad would have tanned our hides). And yet, with a virtually unlimited number of crashes none of the four of us suffered any brain damage (until we got in the Corps and got brainwashed, lol)

I say we take the warning labels off everything and let nature take it's course!!!! Maybe folks would actually start thinking for themselves!!! ~Martin :DOnce again, Martin speaks worlds of wisdom with few words.

[AzLoneRider]

Not my kitchen, LOL!

We went to visit the new houses n a subdivision during an open house. The kitchens were huge and lovely and equipped with pantrys, but, they were more set up for looks than for cooking. I cannot explain that statement, but, they WERE!

It mmight have been because I was thinking of stains and chips on those granite counter tops, the number of extra steps in cooking, and so forth. I cannot REALLY put my finger on it, but, I do not think those kitchens were meant to be used for more than pouring cereal and putting frozen dinners in the oven.

They were designed around dinner party's and large groups of people

[MooseToo]

I miss Jarts!!!!

http://i49.tinypic.com/14ax8h4.jpg

I say we take the warning labels off everything and let nature take it's course!!!!

Maybe folks would actually start thinking for themselves!!!

~Martin :D

the truly scary thing is that we probably wouldn't need all those labels if there were not sufficient numbers of imbeciles who NEED those labels -

[Cat Lover]

Well, the comments have wandered off into several worthy areas, many deserving their own threads.

For example, the use of bike helmets to illustrate just how over-protective we have become. Didn't G>Gordon Liddy lead off one of he books with just that example- to underscore his point that we USED to be free? There's a great thread right there!

A government grant to help the needy - there's another great thread.

Let's back up a little.

"Safety" is a topic all it's own, both in the specific (don't do this....) and the more general area of 'risk management.' For those with a rural lifestyle, this means taking into account your limitations.
Looking at that turkey fryer for a moment ... the ease with which it can be tipped, the flamability of the oil, the limited fire fighting resources 'out in the sticks', the inherent flammability of wood construction .... all point to the wisdom of keeping that thing far from home.

The video ought to also suggest to you the need for you to be able to handle such a fire. Does your kitchen have an extinguisher? Can you get to it when you'll need it?

Not to pick on turkey fryers - the point is that a different lifestyle demands a different way of building a home. Having the family dog at the foot of the bed is fine - but you might want to draw the line when you start getting livestock :D

Some of the comments made about 'scarey bugs' show a very real ignorance of the risks posed by vermin. Time and again critters (of all sizes) have devastated both farms and communities. Whether directly (by eating the grain) or indirectly (by spreading disease, starting fires by damaging wires), there's a topic the homesteader needs to care about.

"Holistic" pest control? Start with a "Critter Abatement Technician," or CAT. A look at the history of the 'Black Death,' and what communities were spared, will suggest a lot about the value of proper sanitation, pest control, etc. Don't you want a healthy homestead?

Ken Follet's novel "A Place Called Freedom" does a fine job of illustrating the perils of both a single-crop economy, and the need for proper fertilizer practices. Why repeat the errors of the past?

The various Irish 'potato blights' repeat the point: single crop + crop failure = disaster.

Curse the 'government' all you like, but the fact remains that there is a tremendous wealth of information available from various governmental resources - starting with the university's 'agricultural extension office.'

Likewise, folks who have never built before suddenly think they're master architects. I would advise starting off by using a simple, established plan. Master the mechanics before you start getting fancy- and remember that your reach will always exceed your grasp! Were I to start a homestead, my first structure would be an 8x12 shack .... with an outhouse! KISS. You need a place to stay while you build your mansion - and you need the practice.

I suppose that's another 'button' that got pushed: the assumption in many articles that just anyone can instantly become a gentleman farmer and pioneer. Those are very real 'skilled trades,' and it takes time to master them. It's not all (as my cat would say) mice and moonlight!

[GoodDaughter]

There is definitely no substitute for experience, no matter how many books you read, and the 'one size fits all' approach sometimes leads to a lot of wasted time, materials, labor, and money when someone tries to acquire all the buildings, implements, acreage, animals and etc. that they think they need because they've read several books and those things keep coming up as a common denominator.

For example, me, myself... I don't want to have umpteen acres and raise hogs and goats and keep a milk cow and have 2 acres under tillage and have a 5 acre orchard and 10 in hay. This sort of scenario is pretty common in a lot of homesteading/small farming books I've read over the years. There is no way I/we could manage all that. I don't even want to try. For me, that approach to 'self sufficiency' would not work, because it's not what we want or would be able to physically take care of. I'd never be Jackie Clay no matter how hard I tried. The one-size fits all approach doesn't apply to us.

What we would like is to have about 1/2 acre garden, maybe 6 or 8 semi dwarf fruit trees and a couple of pecan tres, and to keep just poultry--some chickens, a few ducks and a few turkeys. For us, that works. Right now the garden is small, the poultry are few, and the fruit trees are fewer and dwarf, but for the time being, I'm satisfied. I preserve some food, DH hunts and we get plenty of venison every year. Don't need separate buildings for everything either--you can butcher poultry just fine with a couple of sawhorses set up in the back yard and have things be quite clean. A greenhouse is nice to have but not always appropriate or necessary depending on climate and intent.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we all have very different wants in terms of self sufficiency. It's nice to have dreams and make plans for what we want, but IMO it's better to start small and gain experience before rushing in and building separate buildings for every single need and over-engineering stuff.

As for the kitchen/vermin issue... no vermin here, sorry. Bait is kept out of course, because we live in a very heavily wooded area, but no insects of the macroscopic kind inside my home. Cleanliness and orderliness go a long way toward that problem...

[AlchemyAcres]

Were I to start a homestead.....

Does this mean you have no intention or interest in actually doing so?

The tone of some of your posts ,it seems, especially in this thread, is one of talking down to people.

Telling folks to toss the Foxfire books, that's a bit arrogant and absurd.

I hope you're not assuming that folks who are of the self-sufficient mindset and who actually intend to live the lifestyle and not just talk about it haven't considered the risks involved without your general proselytizing.
Those of the self-sufficient mindset are all about taking personal responsibility for their own existence.

There are risks involved in every thing we do, whether one lives on a homestead or not.

Some talk the talk, some walk the walk!



~Martin

[Terri]

Looking at that turkey fryer for a moment ... the ease with which it can be tipped, the flamability of the oil, the limited fire fighting resources 'out in the sticks', the inherent flammability of wood construction .... all point to the wisdom of keeping that thing far from home.

That might depend on your lifestyle. When I burn outside I stay with it at all times. If I were to have a turkey fryer I would expect to be with it at all times.

Having the family dog at the foot of the bed is fine - but you might want to draw the line when you start getting livestock

Homes for livestock is the BEST building project to start with!!!! That is where I started! It was fairly poor and it onlky lasted for 12 years or so, but the hens only complained when it got too cold. At that point I started learning about hay bales around the base, how hens will eat any insulation that they see, and so forth. I learned about a lot with that hen house. All 3' by 4' by 4' of it.
I suppose that's another 'button' that got pushed: the assumption in many articles that just anyone can instantly become a gentleman farmer and pioneer. Those are very real 'skilled trades,' and it takes time to master them. It's not all (as my cat would say) mice and moonlight!There is a reason the articles make that assumption.

When was the last time you saw a course on how to be a pioneer? Or a gentleman farmer?

I spent many, many years looking for such information. I have a very fine library of such books. They are very good books or I did not keep them. There is a great deal of information in there for a person who grew up in a city like myself.

There is, of course, a limit on how much information you can get out of a book, which is WHY the books want you to just do things. Because that is the most readily available way of leaning the subject.

There was no way to take a class on how to build a tiny hen house and so I designed it and got busy. I have seen blueprints since then but I did not see any at the time. And I did look. So I made it up. It worked, though it looks fairly tacky.

The same with the Christmas trees. The same with the pumpkins: I read an article on cold cellering and did the best that I could. Etc.

Again, the reason the books say to get busy and just do it is because there are few teachers of this knowledge, and when there *IS* a teacher of such knowledge people come from states around, *IF* they can afford it.

So, most of us learn by getting our hands dirty.

[NCLee]

Does this mean you have no intention or interest in actually doing so?

The tone of some of your posts ,it seems, especially in this thread, is one of talking down to people.

Telling folks to toss the Foxfire books, that's a bit arrogant and absurd.

I hope you're not assuming that folks who are of the self-sufficient mindset and who actually intend to live the lifestyle and not just talk about it haven't considered the risks involved without your general proselytizing.
Those of the self-sufficient mindset are all about taking personal responsibility for their own existence.

There are risks involved in every thing we do, whether one lives on a homestead or not.

Some talk the talk, some walk the walk!

~Martin

And, I believe that most of us who walk the walk have common sense to go along with it.

Lee

[Cat Lover]

Preachy? Me? I suppose there might be some truth to that.

James Michener wrote a book, "Journey," detailing the trek of some gold seekers to Alaska. One point Michener kept harping on was the absolutely shameless way outfitters, provisioners, even map-makers and guides spoke so knowingly of a journey they themselves had never made - a situation that caused the fictional characters much hardship. He contrasts this to the timely advice they got when they were happened upon by someone who really knew the reality.

I suspect there's a fair amount of that in the various 'self-reliance' press. Indeed, that's what led to this thread. I see far too much published that makes me shudder.

I've not made any comments, here or in any other thread, that is not supported by my direct experience. I've BTDT, and I've seen plenty of other folks try ... and IMO, not do it as well as I. If that's arrogance, I'm guilty.

There's an urgency to my tone sometimes, perhaps born of the reality that my daily work often entails untangling the mess left by someone who just couldn't be bothered to learn first.

I've often heard folks praise 'common sense' and 'street smarts,' but those are no substitute for learning- and learning is no substitute for actually doing. That much we agree on. It seems to always be the uneducated who assert the value of 'common sense' - and I've seen far too many of those efforts go down in flames.

Even worse are the various activists, with their 'counter-culture' cures, urging you to deliberately act contrary to what centuries of experience have taught. There's a reason the USA literally feeds the world - and it's by building on the past, rather than enshrining it. "Reduce, recycle, reuse' might sound catchy, but the only route to self-sufficiency involves actually producing.

[AlchemyAcres]

Preachy? Me? I suppose there might be some truth to that.

James Michener wrote a book, "Journey," detailing the trek of some gold seekers to Alaska. One point Michener kept harping on was the absolutely shameless way outfitters, provisioners, even map-makers and guides spoke so knowingly of a journey they themselves had never made - a situation that caused the fictional characters much hardship. He contrasts this to the timely advice they got when they were happened upon by someone who really knew the reality.

I suspect there's a fair amount of that in the various 'self-reliance' press. Indeed, that's what led to this thread. I see far too much published that makes me shudder.

I've not made any comments, here or in any other thread, that is not supported by my direct experience. I've BTDT, and I've seen plenty of other folks try ... and IMO, not do it as well as I. If that's arrogance, I'm guilty.

There's an urgency to my tone sometimes, perhaps born of the reality that my daily work often entails untangling the mess left by someone who just couldn't be bothered to learn first.

I've often heard folks praise 'common sense' and 'street smarts,' but those are no substitute for learning- and learning is no substitute for actually doing. That much we agree on. It seems to always be the uneducated who assert the value of 'common sense' - and I've seen far too many of those efforts go down in flames.

Even worse are the various activists, with their 'counter-culture' cures, urging you to deliberately act contrary to what centuries of experience have taught. There's a reason the USA literally feeds the world - and it's by building on the past, rather than enshrining it. "Reduce, recycle, reuse' might sound catchy, but the only route to self-sufficiency involves actually producing.

Yeah...I remember your knowledge of what a coyote looks like....LOL

With the vast amounts of first hand knowledge and experience that you say you have I invite to join in to more threads and actually answer specific questions instead of just general criticism and proselytizing all the time. :D

The one thing I've learned for sure over the years is that there's more than one way to do things.
What may work flawlessly for one, can be a total disaster for someone else..... in spite of the best advice, experience, education, ambition, determination, studying, careful planning, etc. etc. etc.!!!

Maybe you posses a special kind of magic, if so, please share!!!!!


~Martin ;)

[AlchemyAcres]

Ken Follet's novel "A Place Called Freedom" does a fine job of illustrating the perils of both a single-crop economy, and the need for proper fertilizer practices. Why repeat the errors of the past?



Even worse are the various activists, with their 'counter-culture' cures, urging you to deliberately act contrary to what centuries of experience have taught. There's a reason the USA literally feeds the world - and it's by building on the past, rather than enshrining it. "Reduce, recycle, reuse' might sound catchy, but the only route to self-sufficiency involves actually producing.

You're contradicting yourself.

The US feeds the world with monoculture crops supported by negligent and unwise fertilizer practices totally ignoring lessons from the past.


~Martin

[GoodDaughter]

Cat Liver, if you assume that people here or anywhere else who extol the virtues of common sense are 'uneducated', then you assume too much. You have no way of knowing how educated someone is. As far as homesteading skills go, I would rather rely on someone with a great deal of applied experience and common sense than someone who spent most of their time educating themselves but seldom acting on anything.

[nhlivefreeordie]

Failure is necessary for greater achievement, failure allows us to be great, failure is a great teacher. How many of us have dove headlong into something that we were warned was NOT the way to go?...I see a lot of hands including my own....MOST of those times result in failure, and a life lesson, but those precious few times when we defy the odds......those are character builders.

Sometimes I would just rather do something and fail and learn for my self, I understand me better than anyone else. It is part of being human.

[Grizzy]

You know... I ain't a farmer (twiddle'n a toofpick).. I'm reading this thread coming from a guy who admitedly doesn't prep in the sense of canning and putting back food for hard times (CL you told us that yourself in the chat room), he dosesn't farm, this sounds like a gubbament 101 dum farmer class... "Now ya'll sit down an we'll tell ya how to fix yurselfs..." Dang, am think'n I ben in Texas too long... this would never fly for 3 pages in Texas.. I jus knowit... Ya had yur say an they said patooey... case closed huh?

~dum cucaracha~

[pubwvj]

You're dismissing the traditional too much. There is a lot of 'old tech' that is very good and a lot of 'new tech' that isn't necessary or useful on our scale. I mix and match what suites my needs.

Duct tape, WD-40, 1" black water line, electric fencing are all wonderful new techs that are wonderful. Computer and the Internet are great resources for researching.

Tractor's very handy but I could farm with or without it. Certainly makes it easier and saves time but it isn't a must have.

Grazing, mixed crops, companion planting and a lot of 'older tech' makes good sense. Don't dismiss the Foxfires and other traditional knowledge.

By the way, I make nearly 100% of my living farming so this isn't some baseless theory.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont

(http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog)

[Terri]

Cat lover, you have had something that most of us can only dream of: you have had a background in agriculture. Most of us have never had that opportunity.

Instead, we learn where we can and how we can. If there is an alternative, please do speak up.

[Anon001]

Personally speaking....

Advice to homesteaders and the self-reliant people, some of which have been off-grid for over a decade....

....coming from someone that is not self-reliant, a homesteader and has no desire to do such....


.....well.... it's sorta makes me think of a blind barber giving straight razor shaves....

Paul

[nhlivefreeordie]

Personally speaking....

Advice to homesteaders and the self-reliant people, some of which have been off-grid for over a decade....

....coming from someone that is not self-reliant, a homesteader and has no desire to do such....


.....well.... it's sorta makes me think of a blind barber giving straight razor shaves....

Paul

Oh damn, :D now my keyboard and screen are covered with coffee...THANKS!!!....:mad:

[pubwvj]

Post removed by author.

[Dave]

Interesting thread.

I have had several conversations with folks who farm for a living and I have had many conversations with folks that farm for self-sufficiency. These are two entirely separate endeavors which require significantly different approaches.

Man has had the ability to be self efficient for longer than recorded history and way before government was ever conceived let a lone agricultural extension offices. To suggest people are not capable of being successful without a check list of items from your local extension office is a stretch.

I am new to the whole concept of homesteading and can claim no past experience; however one thing is for certain, I intend to get my hands dirty and to fail so I can learn. I don't anticipate my coming years to be a cake walk but what I do plan to become is a true human being: a self sufficient individual no longer dependent on government or others to feed my dependence (wife and children). The good news is there is a lot of knowledgeable and positive individuals on BWH to contribute advice and knowledge!

Long story short because I feel a rant coming on, one should not discourage trying because of the risk of failure. If every book or article written suggested it is not possible for the average Joe to farm then we would have far less self-sufficient farmers because most wouldn't try. Heck why even write about a topic that can't be done by others? The point is, most people are capable and just need a little motivation to get started - thus the glass is half full.

Warm regards,

Dave

[nhlivefreeordie]

Failures produce greater successes.