Lessons from Haiti?

[Cat Lover]

News is still fragmentary, days after the 7,0 quake shook Haiti. With that in mind, I don't expect anyone to be able to write the 'definitive paper' on the topic.

Yet, this board often discusses topics related to "when TSHTF." The quake in Haiti certainly qualifies as such an event.

What lessons can we draw from this experience?

[Travis]

The biggest thing I have seen is the fact that the goverment is overwhelmed and ill prepared. If countries such as America didn't come to there aid they would be far worse off.

[Anon001]

The only lesson I can see is that for those that live self-reliant will have it made. The people in the cities and other congested areas will have a harder time.

The nice thing about being from an ag type family is that for us, it is a lifestyle to store foods and other items from one harvest to the next... and usually more than is needed.

Paul

[Southerngirl]

I agree Paul, I've changed my way of looking at things and settled down about the whole "fear" of something happening and just realized that how we have always lived will get us by, though I have learned many things from topics like this that we have added to our farm, but all and all I think we will be ok :)
Love your quote at the bottom of your post! Very true! ;)

[hanabal89]

How do you prepare for a high magnitude earth quake? Looking at it from a pessimist view it looks extremely difficult. Yes you can store and prepare food and water, but what happens when the places you store such items is destroyed by the earthquake. home canned good will surely be smashed and shattered. no electricity so frozen goods are only an option for a matter of days.
How do you earthquake proof your preps?

[Prairie]

Scariest thing I see about it is the rioting and violence. Is it the Haitian culture, the fact that they are do densely populated there, or is it human nature to kill or be killed to survive?

[Anon001]

No matter where one lives, there are always some type of natural disaster risk. I think a lot of the preparations depends on where you are.

The problem with places like Haiti is that they are not necessarily the best built structures do to the poverty levels.

I also think the looting is the same people that would mug someone without a disaster. I don't think it brings out the worst in people. I think it gives the worst people an excuse.

[lucky1]

It doesn't matter how much money you have in the bank or gold in the safe. If you don't have access to clean water and food you will suffer. After we had a small earth quake here I put all my canned goods in cases on the bottom shelf with nothing heavy above them.

[otobesane1]

The biggest problems they have is that their buildings are built extremely poorly, too close together and house multiple families in small spaces. I think we will find that most of the people who have been killed are situated in the cities. People outside the cities and in remote areas where they live in tin shacks, tents and cardboard shanties will be alive.

Another problem, as has been written, is that there is largely no government, no emergency response ability and no infrastructure to handle large scale injuries...oh, and did I mention that they are the poorest country in the Western hemisphere?? They have no food, clean water, medical supplies, have depleted most of their natural resources (trees), live in a tropical hurricane zone and on top of an earthquake fault line. I don't think I've forgotten anything....except that they change corrupt governments only slightly less frequently than I change my underwear.

And what totally pi$$e$ me off it that I heard on XMRadio today that there are Haitians complaining to any camera in front of them that the US isn't doing enough. I can appreciate their frustration, however, give credit where credit is due. Who arrived at the island first after the quake? The US. Who has pledged the most aid ($100M versus China's $4.4M)? The US. Who has been their benefactors for the past 2 decades? The US. Who has given, as opposed to loaned, them a billion dollars a year for the last 5 years? The US. And when the chips are down, who is always first in line to pony up the money? THE FRICKIN' US, THAT'S WHO! Sorry, rant over.

Almost forgot. Evidently there are 30,000 Haitians who are supposed to be deported, but will now be given an additional 18 months to suck our resources dry. Didn't want to leave that out.

[lucky1]

[QUOTE=otobesane1;193319]The US. Who has pledged the most aid ($100M versus China's $4.4M)?QUOTE]

I believe our 100 million is coming from China too.:wacko:

[randallhilton]

Of the top of my head, two perspectives from different angles:

1. I have a feeling that Hatti's infrastructure and internal governance problems may be a result of too much aid from the U.S. and other agencies. Why should we learn to do it ourselves if somebody else is always there to do it for us? (this is not to dismiss the level of disaster . . . just that the disaster aftermath IS worse because the nation was in such a needy condition before hand)

2. The preparedness ethic I have also includes the idea, the mission, that those who can do so should be self equipped enough to help rebuild in the aftermath. I know our household could do more than most but it would take many like minded families to make a dent.

3. Bonus point . . . and why would anybody still be living on the San Andreas fault line????

[cubcadet]

You shall know them by their fruits-

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0707_040707_tvtaboovoodoo.html

[Native87]

I dont get much in the fear of it all anymore either but I feel that a person should know where to get WATER WATER WATER. If you have a good stock of food you will be way ahead.

I do feel that the actions of the "gangs" and such is VERY real for this country also. The shock of the situation has not settled down yet. When some of the shock goes away the survival instinct will hit and just pure desperation will set in. It is only human nature for self preservation. You can't tell me you wouldnt do WHATEVER it takes to care for your family or self. This is what I think the big problem is going to be there. And you can bet that in the US where things are much more abundent that in this same situation you will find people that are spoiled by our better way of life will stop at NOTHING to get what they need at that time. Fear,desperation,pain,thirst and hunger are huge motivators. An instant gratification mindset of people will change perspectives and attitudes in an instant.

[cinok]

Just a couple things to consider here. Certain disasters are instant such as earthquakes and tornadoes, you do not seem them coming and if you are not prepared you will be in worse shape them others. These type of disasters also cause immediate damage to property with no warning to move your disaster supplies, that is why it is important to spread you goods. Keep a 72 hr kit in a shed or spring house or even buried somewhere so you can at least have the basics as long as you can hydrate and provide basis nutrients to your body and your family you will have the energy to dig out your long term supplies(unless the tornado decides your supplies belong to a family in an adjoining county :) ) Remember that Haiti has been a welfare state to the UN and US for a long time. The people have people have become used to hand outs this is more prevalent in the cities but the hills have also been infiltrated by handouts. Once again by westernizing a country that should be living in the stone age the countrie(s) that where responsible for the growth are now trying to patch it up. Also remember that Haiti has a very high AIDS population and this type of disaster with the injuries is going to advance the spread.

[Pokeberry Mary]

I am learning/observing that sometimes prayer is all there is that is helpful.

I think I also felt humility and gratitude. Obviously it wasn't our personal choices to be born where we are-- in the situation given to these people from birth-- I don't feel we have a right to feel very superior. We may not have managed much better in their shoes.

I have never believed there is any way to prep that would get you through anything. I believe in stocking up but I guess I would not say I'm a prepper that much or a survivalist.

I've always thought there is no way I can control all variables or I'd be God--and since I know I'm not--I let Him manage the unforeseen things.

One thing I saw on my TV that I don't think gets much notice is that there were some folks in Haiti who were gathered together singing and comforting each other-- I'm betting they were folks who believed and expected God would keep their souls safe for sure and their bodies too if He felt best. I think-- this only reaffirms faith to me-- We're not in control and even in the worst of things that happen, there is still a better hope, another place where these things will all be behind us. Perhaps some of these people were in a sense happy for those who died believing that.

[Laura]

What lessons can we draw from this experience?

CatLover:
72 hour kit is of the utmost importance. The kids and I talked at great length about this. WHAT is in the 72 hour kit is equally important. We are in a tornado prone / blizzard prone / chemical spill prone area. Packing our 72 hour kit for a hurricane or earth quake would not really suit our geographical location. So what goes in the kit is as important AS the kit.

You shall know them by their fruits-

Cub: you are right, Matthew 23 speaks so much of what is going on, therefore drawing nearer to Him, knowing "The Signs" and Faith has a huge huge role in our preparedness.

I also think the looting is the same people that would mug someone without a disaster. I don't think it brings out the worst in people. I think it gives the worst people an excuse

Paul: this is dead on the money! I am more 'afraid' of the evil in humans than I am any natural disaster!!

The biggest thing I have seen is the fact that the goverment is overwhelmed and ill prepared

Travis: Totally agree. We as individuals cannot count on / rely on someone ELSE to help. It will never be 'right, enough, or adequate' in our eyes, so we as individuals and families need to prepare, on our own.

The US. And when the chips are down, who is always first in line to pony up the money? THE FRICKIN' US, THAT'S WHO! Sorry, rant over.

Otobesane1: Again, Right Right Right. We are the FIRST everywhere to give. Who came to our aid for Katrina? For Andrew? For Hugo? Who came to the aid of those who were socked in the blizzard a few years back up in the Dakota's? Yet we are the big evil. We are the big greedy evils, who are fat with wealth..........I could rage on and on, but will spare everyone the tirade. :-)

[Cat Lover]

It appears that the REAL disaster in Haiti is the breakdown of whatever little government / social cohesion there was. I don't know about others, but I can recal a few disasters, of just as massive a scale, that did not melt down into an orgy of violence and desperation.

Which highlights the importance not only of having some degree of self-reliance / preparedness, but also the need to keep the lawless rabble out of your hair.

Holding the mob at bay (as the Korean merchants did during the "Rodney King" riots) is one thing; better yet if the mob has no idea that you have something that they want. This might involve some compromise on your part; you may lose part of your crop to campers and scavengers, but as long as they're in the fields they're not approaching the house.

Which, of course, brings us to the old realtors' maxim of 'location is everything.' Let's compare two hurricaines: Hugo and Katrina. Speaking for myself, I'd rather try to survive in a 'you loot, we shoot' culture, than one where the police join in looting an undamaged Wal-Mart.

The strength of the local culture also has a direct bearing on your level of preparation. Taking WW2 as an example, one part of Berlin recovered pretty quickly, while the other is still in recovery - simply because on one side of "The Wall" the government was quite active in disrupting any manner of social organization apart from the 'official' one. Do you want to survive a 3-day emergency, or a 50-year one?

[Pokeberry Mary]

One thing I have thought about is when you have thousands and thousands of people and no food/water/etc.. I don't think its looting to make use of what you can.

In the case of New Orleans and of Haiti-- gosh I just don't see how you could tell people =-don't take the diapers or the food, just starve.

sometimes I think looting is justifiable.

[Roots_Farm]

Going on the premise of a large earthquake I would first have to survive the initial and subsequently quakes. I have a fairly well built house so let's pretend it allows for our survival but is uninhabitable.

Day one. All communications are down. Roads are questionable at best but after ascertaining our situation and that of our neighbors we would go and check on family. Hopefully the masses will still be in shock and we would have little if any problems with folks trying to attack us for supplies.

Night one: We would have to live in our motor home. It has a full tank of gas and propane and a generator. We would utilize the generator to run our freezer and the CB radio to communicate as best we could. The pistol from the glove box would be our initial defense weapon. As we are in a developed country we will have support arriving so we know there is a light at the end of the tunnel, we just have to make it till then.

Day two: Hopefully all major aftershocks would have ended by now. If the house was going to fall in on itself it would have by now. Still not safe to live in though but safe enough for me to go inside and get my stuff. After gathering all important documents, weapons (not that I own any Mr. Gubment man) and food items we would wait it out. We have a hand dug well adjacent to our property and would have to do the old rope and bucket trick and then purify the water (open well) for drinking. If I still have water pressure I can fill my campers water tanks. If it will be weeks before help arrives I will have to build some sort of storage system for the waste water (still working on that one). What I have held in reserves is a tightly kept secret. I do have a local network of folks that are willing to band together for the safety and support of the group as a whole but when a disaster strikes that may not be as reliable as it looks on paper.

As this is a local disaster and normalcy will soon return I would not implement any long term plan for sustainability. If that type of disaster does strike I have that planned out as well.

[Teg]

A 72hr kit is essential, but a well built house would have been the first thing that would have helped most of these folks, houses collapsed nationwide not just the city.

As for the aid, I don't have a problem with giving someone a helping hand when they are in need, so long as it doesn't become a permanent thing. I think we will have a big surge of illegals from Haiti here shortly, but perhaps the aid can lessen the numbers somewhat.

[rideaway]

Just saw tonight a bit on a mother and infant who survived the quake but now the baby will probably die because no formula is available and the baby is being fed sugar-water. Breastfeeding would have taken care of that issue... Now, I know that not all women can successfully breastfeed, but it is becoming way to common to just use formula from the minute the baby is born. With breastfeeding, the mother provides the nutrients, and even if the mother isn't getting enough food, the baby can survive for a very long time.

[cwatson]

Of the top of my head, two perspectives from different angles:

1. I have a feeling that Hatti's infrastructure and internal governance problems may be a result of too much aid from the U.S. and other agencies. Why should we learn to do it ourselves if somebody else is always there to do it for us? (this is not to dismiss the level of disaster . . . just that the disaster aftermath IS worse because the nation was in such a needy condition before hand)

2. The preparedness ethic I have also includes the idea, the mission, that those who can do so should be self equipped enough to help rebuild in the aftermath. I know our household could do more than most but it would take many like minded families to make a dent.

3. Bonus point . . . and why would anybody still be living on the San Andreas fault line????


That's what I was telling my DH. If you give too much to people they do not learn to do for themselves. I believe the world should help them but I do not believe they had the right to scream that we are not doing enough. That is the reaction of someone that is used to everyone doing it for them.

As for what to do in that SHTF situation I considered that myself. All the home canned stuff would be a goner but the dehydrated goods should still be alright and the fact that we do not have neighbors right next to us and live in a DW we would be able to dig out the dry foods (at least I would hope we could). Of course this is assuming that we are semi-okay. I also keep BOB in my car and in the storage shed so that would get us meds and a couple days dried foods. Water is stored in rain barrels most of the time so as long as we are not in drought mode there will be water. I also have water purifiers in several locations in and out of the house.

I sure would hate to see all those canned foods go to waste though :) Maybe I will dehydrate some of the jams and make rollups :)

[backlash]

One thing I have thought about is when you have thousands and thousands of people and no food/water/etc.. I don't think its looting to make use of what you can.

In the case of New Orleans and of Haiti-- gosh I just don't see how you could tell people =-don't take the diapers or the food, just starve.

sometimes I think looting is justifiable.

I agree that taking food and water to survive is different than people looting TVs, stereos,video games, over priced shoes and booze.
I would not let my family go without food or water if I could get it.
I would try to go back after the fact and pay the owner but I would take it if needed to live.

[Big Kahuna]

Let me say unequivocally that the Hatians need all the help we can give them right now. My heart goes out to them.

Nevertheless, their problems didn't start this week. Haiti has been a cesspool for years. They were already way too dependent on charity from outside. Many of them do very little for themselves except steal. Notice in the news footage that EVERY door and window is fortified, usually with bars. Houses are surrounded by concrete walls topped with broken glass. Now after the quake, gangs of thugs armed with machetes are roaming the streets. When a truck of supplies arrives, they push women and children aside and grab all they can. Even before the quake, many donations never made it past the docks because they were grabbed by thugs who then sold them. It is going to be very hard to help them with a culture like that.

[Cat Lover]

It appears that the Haiti quake was comparable in size to the one that struck San Francisco a few years ago (the Loma Prieta quake).

I think the two quakes validate modern construction practices.

I would also say that your first 'step' in preparedness should be to locate yourself where things don't fall apart at the first hint of trouble.

[Oblio13]

... I have never believed there is any way to prep that would get you through anything...

Of course not. But you can certainly influence the odds.

... what totally pi$$e$ me off it that ... there are Haitians complaining to any camera in front of them that the US isn't doing enough. I can appreciate their frustration, however...

Me too. They're in dire straits and under enormous stress, but the attitude still seems shockingly ungrateful. Like New Orleans after Katrina all over again, they seem to choose victimhood over self-reliance. Especially in a region plagued by hurricanes, you'd think people would have had the foresight to keep some supplies squirreled away. Even the poorest families have the means to keep some water and beans in empty pop bottles or something.

... Let's compare two hurricaines: Hugo and Katrina. Speaking for myself, I'd rather try to survive in a 'you loot, we shoot' culture, than one where the police join in looting ...

Unfortunately, the media never had the guts to point out those glaringly obvious cultural differences, and even after seeing the Katrina aftermath in living color, the sheeple still think the authorities know best and will take care of them.

I am learning/observing that sometimes prayer is all there is that is helpful... ...

Praying or meditating brings some people comfort. But too often it keeps them from actually doing something. If there are gods, they're the ones who gave Haiti an earthquake. It's up to people to pick up the pieces, not invisible super-heros.

... sometimes I think looting is justifiable.

One of the instructors in military SERE school said something I've never forgotten: "Everyone is only hours away from being willing to do anything for a glass of water."

... What lessons can we draw from this experience?

Supplies are piling up alongside Port au Prince's single runway. Distribution is a problem since many roads are damaged and there's a lack of fuel. Communications are poor, hindering the coordination of efforts. Injuries are becoming infected, and the usual post-disaster diseases will be making an appearance soon. There are reports of gangs with machetes stealing relief supplies.

Haitians are without shelter, water, food, light, medical supplies, sanitation, transportation or security.

What would be useful to them, and what would be useful to you if such a disaster occurred where you live?

Tents, fuel, paraffin lamps, candles, firewood, bicycles, medical kits, non-perishable food, the means to purify water, a latrine or sawdust bucket, defensive firearms, and above all the knowledge to use all of the above.

Last but not least: Physical fitness. That's not a problem for most Haitians, but it sure is for most Americans. If you huff and puff going up stairs, you're at best a burden to your friends and family. Don't wait until you have to be in shape to get in shape. "It's too to learn how to swim when the boat is sinking."

[jonvee]

I think what we can take away from this disaster and all the previous ones is that you are on your own for much more than 72-hours so you better be able to take care of yourself.

We've had our share of tests living in So Cals quake zone, not to mention being hit by wildfires almost every year. We are well aware that those NOT living in town are the last ones to be considered by any emergency plan. Fortunately my house is old enough that it has survived a few 5 to 6+ quakes and is fine.

As for big disasters like Haiti, shear logistics of mobilizing rescue people, military, aid of any kind takes time. There's no way you can gather troops, supplies, equip; load a plane and get it off the ground and to it's destination without first finding out basic info like where can a plane land, what's the infrastructure like, communications, how can the supplies and equip get from the airport to where it's needed, etc. And again, this all takes time.

It just annoys me to death hearing all the complaints hours after something like this happens. Reaction times are not instant. The U.S. can't just drop from the sky and make it all better.

And, of course, if they don't like the way WE are doing things they can always ask someone else.

[docsoos]

[QUOTE=otobesane1;193319]The US. Who has pledged the most aid ($100M versus China's $4.4M)?QUOTE]

I believe our 100 million is coming from China too.:wacko:

Yup.........via Wal-Mart.

DocSoos

[anna]

First of all choose where you live carefully. Stay out of cities. Riots in LA over nothing are a point to consider. Why live on an earth quake fault line? Why live in a city below sea level?

We live in a small (1,900) rural community. No earth quakes likely here. Tornadoes, blizzards, extreme cold and ice storms yes. Flooding not likely. We got thru 1993 without flooding. Had 16" of rain in a 3 day period without flooding. That's not saying it couldn't happen. Obviously there are no guarantees. Tornado, we had an F4 or F5 wipe us out in 1979. Odds are in our favor it won't happen here again, but it could. We have a railroad 2 blocks away with heaven knows what being transported. We have a highway 1 mile away with heaven knows what being transported. No place is perfect.

I think our chances of survival in a disaster are much better than anyone living in a city. I know our chances are better than anyone living in a 3rd world country. Day to day survival in Haiti was iffy before this disaster.

I thought it was interesting that the people who before this disaster were living in a shanty town have already started rebuilding with salvaged materials. They may feel better off than before with a wealth of available building materials. People who have survival skills will always have a better chance of survival even without their stockpile of goods.

[grandmajoy]

We all need to remember a few things, the first being:

THERE BUT BUY THE GRACE OF GOD GO I.

We were born here, not in a country with crushing poverty and violent dictators(some of which the U.S. helped to power). We in general have had opportunities simply not available in places like Haiti.

Few of us will experience any thing of this magnitude in our lives. And realistically for some of these people there is nothing they could have done to prepare themselves for this. A story I read on CNN was about an American military pilot that was at the Hotel Montana in Port-A-Prince for ironically, disaster training, who had been e-mailing his wife just before the quake. They have yet to find him. All the prepping in the world is not going to help if you are buried under 30' of rubble. There are still people texting from beneath the rubble in some places but rescuers have yet dig to them out.

Earthquakes are different than other natural disasters, in that they happen in less time it takes to read this. Hurricanes and tornadoes they can track, blizzards they can predict, you know fairly well if you live in a flood plain, but WE ALL live in possible earthquake zones, some are more active than others. Anyone living along the Mississippi is in danger of an earthquake that could be more devastating than the one in Haiti. If you are at home when it happens than you might be ok. But do you NEVER leave you're house? If you are trapped in a city for work or shopping or travel what would you do?

I'm still working on that one. But it is a wake up call for all of us, and to realize we cannot judge others in a time like this, as we may not fare any better.

[Bones]

Grandmajoy, you are right on the spot. Yes we are ready here at the house if a earthquake hit. House may be damage but pretty sure we would be able to recover some of our supplies from either the house or outbuildings. But if I am at work and my spouse is at work that is a different story. Both builidings are block/concrete construction. Mine on base was built prior to the requirement of seismic that are required now for buildings built on base. My wife's is a commercial building in the city that even though built in 2004 prob was not built to any standards either as I am not too sure Memphis, TN or the surrounding area require single story buildings be built to seismic standards. We both can only hope the buildings stand long enough to get out of them. From there we are 7 miles from home. I have no bridges to cross to get home the wife will have at least one small bridge.
There was a thread on here about bridges on the Mississippi and just last night the 155 over the Miss was closed for 4 hours because a barge hit it this stranded people on one side of the river where they worked from getting home on the other side of the Mississippi. I bet none were prepared for that. Now what happens to those school teachers who teach in Missouri and live in Tennessee if a quake did hit. As they said the nearest bridge is 85 miles away in Memphis that is a 170 mile round trip and that is if the two bridges in Memphis aren't damaged and the multiple of bridges on 55 between Memphis and there are not damaged that cross every little creek and small river as well.
About all a person can do is plan and have some storage of food and water near their desk so if they do get trapped at least they will have something to keep them going until help arrives

[Cat Lover]

As more information develops .... a few 'constants' are being validated - again.

First off, there's no substitute for good design. Haiti reqularly gets hit by hurricaines; oddly enough, you take many of the same measures to make a building hurricaine resistant that you do to make it quake resistant. After all these years, the folks have no one to blame but each other.

Next is, again, the role culture plays in life. "Desperation" - the definition seems to vary by time and place. Oddly enough, the places where 'desperation' is resisted seem to also be the places that have less go wrong, and a quicker recovery when disaster strikes. Social orders that collapse at the first hint of an excuse seem not to prosper, or ever recover from disaster. If you look, you will find this lesson confirmed in countless historical examples.

[trapperjoe]

I`ve been wondering if I should even mention this....
I don`t have the solutions for how to survive the "event" whatever it might be. That`s not why I write this.
For years now I wonder, every time I see the "starving kids of ?(anywhere)", I know why they are starving, lack of food. But I don`t understand how/why parents continue to reproduce!? When all your kids are starving, un-educated, living in a hut or on the street, drinking water from a pothole, is there some internal switch that triggers telling you it`s time to reproduce? Please don`t try to convince me most of the kids are a product of rape, that seems impossible. If that`s the case then the rapists are not real bright either, as more mouths to feed means less food for everyone.
Maybe I don`t get it because I don`t have or desire any children of my own?
If the population of Haiti WAS only 50% of current, wouldn`t they have been better off?
Maybe uncle Sam should slip the country a "mickey" that could temporarely sterilize the population.
I bet babies are being conceived in Haiti as I write this. Only a few of them seem to survive, as it has been before because of poor living conditions and disease.
I don`t agree with Chinese govt. but wasn`t it them that controlled human reproduction? Only letting the citizens have a couple kids? Imagine what they would have had.
Maybe the USA should start rewarding us for NOT having kids, and stop paying welfare for any new ones.
If you can`t raise `em, don`t make `em.
Wow, what a rant!
I agree that we miss-treat our own citizens and other countries by giving and giving even when the receivers of the gifts keep "messing-up".

[cubcadet]

[QUOTE=trapperjoe;194510]I`ve been wondering if I should even mention this....
I don`t have the solutions for how to survive the "event" whatever it might be. That`s not why I write this.
For years now I wonder, every time I see the "starving kids of ?(anywhere)", I know why they are starving, lack of food. But I don`t understand how/why parents continue to reproduce!? When all your kids are starving, un-educated, living in a hut or on the street, drinking water from a pothole, is there some internal switch that triggers telling you it`s time to reproduce? Please don`t try to convince me most of the kids are a product of rape, that seems impossible. If that`s the case then the rapists are not real bright either, as more mouths to feed means less food for everyone.
Maybe I don`t get it because I don`t have or desire any children of my own?
If the population of Haiti WAS only 50% of current, wouldn`t they have been better off?
Maybe uncle Sam should slip the country a "mickey" that could temporarely sterilize the population.
I bet babies are being conceived in Haiti as I write this. Only a few of them seem to survive, as it has been before because of poor living conditions and disease.
I don`t agree with Chinese govt. but wasn`t it them that controlled human reproduction? Only letting the citizens have a couple kids? Imagine what they would have had.
Maybe the USA should start rewarding us for NOT having kids, and stop paying welfare for any new ones.
If you can`t raise `em, don`t make `em.
Wow, what a rant!
I agree that we miss-treat our own citizens and other countries by giving and giving even when the receivers of the gifts keep "messing-up".[/QUO

Trouble is, the problem goes back to the colonial period. The French government so vastly improved their existance and nearly eliminated the infant mortality rate there, and their naturally high birth rate wasn`t curbed. That`s the main reason why countries like Haiti and India, for example have such alarmingly high population growth rates. They had to have alot of children to compensate for the high death rates. Improvements in sanitation, diet and the draining of swampy land, etc., by the colonial powers almost eliminated disease. More babies stayed alive. Now, every time there`s a crop failure or natural disaster, the West sends food and other aid to them and they get a reprieve, start eating again, have more kids, and add to the already burgeoning population. A vicious cycle.

But Trapper, don`t forget- the world isn`t over populated- all of Earth`s human population can comfortably fit within the borders of Texas. It`s just the fact that the ones who can`t handle parenthood and don`t produce are the ones having children. The hard working producers are not reproducing.

[Oblio13]

[QUOTE=trapperjoe;194510].... the world isn`t over populated- all of Earth`s human population can comfortably fit within the borders of Texas...

Six billion people could live in Texas?

Nearly every problem we have is at least exacerbated by overpopulation. Crime, pollution, climate change, use of non-renewable resources, soil depletion, you name it.

If it weren't for synthetic ammonia fertilizer, we'd already be unable to even feed ourselves.

[tomato204]

I guess you could put all those people in Texas- as long as they are all standing! If anybody sets down tho.....

[cinok]

I`ve been wondering if I should even mention this....
I don`t have the solutions for how to survive the "event" whatever it might be. That`s not why I write this.
For years now I wonder, every time I see the "starving kids of ?(anywhere)", I know why they are starving, lack of food. But I don`t understand how/why parents continue to reproduce!? When all your kids are starving, un-educated, living in a hut or on the street, drinking water from a pothole, is there some internal switch that triggers telling you it`s time to reproduce? Please don`t try to convince me most of the kids are a product of rape, that seems impossible. If that`s the case then the rapists are not real bright either, as more mouths to feed means less food for everyone.
Maybe I don`t get it because I don`t have or desire any children of my own?
If the population of Haiti WAS only 50% of current, wouldn`t they have been better off?
Maybe uncle Sam should slip the country a "mickey" that could temporarely sterilize the population.
I bet babies are being conceived in Haiti as I write this. Only a few of them seem to survive, as it has been before because of poor living conditions and disease.
I don`t agree with Chinese govt. but wasn`t it them that controlled human reproduction? Only letting the citizens have a couple kids? Imagine what they would have had.
Maybe the USA should start rewarding us for NOT having kids, and stop paying welfare for any new ones.
If you can`t raise `em, don`t make `em.
Wow, what a rant!
I agree that we miss-treat our own citizens and other countries by giving and giving even when the receivers of the gifts keep "messing-up".

I understand your hesitation for posting your feelings I often get accused as being cold when i make statements about the "poor starving kids" I do feel sorry for the kids since children are generally innocent and its the adults and the leaders that are to blame. You do have to admit they make great marketing tools for all the aid groups that use them to promote their cause. Look at any 3rd world or even 2nd world country their population numbers have exploded in the last century or even more in the last 50 years. It used to be if the land could support 3.5 people per acre then any more would either die or move off. Yes developed countries have also had larger population growth but they have some type of plan besides begging for ood from other countries.One thing that many people do not to accept is dead children from starvation or disease on the TV. But they have a problem with food stamps or other aid to help those in this country( I am not for all programs but I would rather feed a US child then a some family living in a mud hut. Westernazation has replaced colonalism and is doing more damge then colonolism ever did. When you had colonislim you had some form of control and give and take. Just as colonlism exploited countires and thier people for resourcses, westernaztion has explotited thses people to be nothing more then dependents of others with no potentail for personal growth. Look at this current mess in Haitia the press is exploiting everthing along with every aid group begging for money.Then complaining that aid isnt arriving fast enough.

[CarolAnn]

We've kind of skated away from the original question -
What have we learned? If any type of huge national disaster hit us here at home, how would we handle it? We sure flunked the test when Katrina struck.

If one of the big faults on the west coast went off, or the super volcano under Yellowstone blew . . . do we have plans and materials in place for getting large-scale medical help, sewage treatment, shelter, food?

No matter how well you prepare, a true, large-scale natural disaster can squash, burn down, blow away or drown your stored stuff. Good to consider - PLAN B and even PLAN C...D...

[MissouriFree]

here an interesting piece on the same subject that you all might find intertesting.

IT is from Survivalblog.com

http://www.survivalblog.com/2010/01/america_is_more_like_haiti_tha.html

[Cat Lover]

Close, Carol Ann, but not quite.

IMO, "WE" didn't flunk Katrina - the people of New Orleans did.

"WE" have done a lot better in Hurricaines Andrew and Hugo, in the Loma Prieta and Northridge quakes, in myriad tornados, floods, blizzards, major fires, major traffic snarls, bridge failures, and countless other disasters.

Where there has been a complete breakdown of order one can almost say there wasn't any order to begin with. The 'social controls' have to be internal to each person. As Paul Harvey used to say, self government can't work without self control.

Let's imagine a disaster striking, say, the Crown Heights part of NYC. This neighborhood is half black and half Hassidic Jewish. In such a disaster, expect the blacks to riot, loot, and make mayhem on each other - while the Ultra-orthodox hunker down, draw closer together, and continue with relatively normal lives.

This is not a racist speculation; this is exactly what happened in that neighborhoods' last spart of rioting.

Were a disaster to strike central Pennsylvania, do you think there would be mobs of Amish farmers prowling the countryside, looting each other?

Thus, I think the 'lesson' of Haiti is that the most important parts of 'preparedness' are you and your neighbors.

Like that grasshopper of folklore, the Haitians refused to prepare for either the quake, or the regular hurricaines. The refused to rebuild in ways that would have survived. Even their public and institutional buildings - where one cannot claim poverty as a factor - were built to fail.

Then, once disaster struck, they couldn't resist preying upon each other. Why do you think the dead were so quickly uncovered? To rob the corpses. Unpleasant, but likely. Rather than rebuild, they grabbed their knives and went looking for more loot.

Looking back at Katrina, you see the same mistakes being made all over again by those people. I doubt the next disaster will be any different. A dysfunctional society is a dysfunctional society. It wasn't George Bush looting those perfectly fine stores in the undamaged parts of town.

So, if you're going to face disaster, locate yourself where you have good neighbors. That's the first defense. With good neighbors, the disaster won't be near as bad nor last near as long as it will be if you have bad neighbors. With good neighbors you'll be helping each other up - rather than keeping each other down.

[cinok]

We've kind of skated away from the original question -
What have we learned? If any type of huge national disaster hit us here at home, how would we handle it? We sure flunked the test when Katrina struck.

If one of the big faults on the west coast went off, or the super volcano under Yellowstone blew . . . do we have plans and materials in place for getting large-scale medical help, sewage treatment, shelter, food?

No matter how well you prepare, a true, large-scale natural disaster can squash, burn down, blow away or drown your stored stuff. Good to consider - PLAN B and even PLAN C...D...

This is going to be a dicey to say but here it goes. If you are talking about government reaction to a large scale disaster which i think you are I have seen planning done and even some "practice" but often time s these drills and plans are spun into conspiracy theories of internment camps and relocating along with many other things. Just foll lowing this thread one should realize how complex a response to a large scale disaster is. Katrina was probably the most complex that this country has seen we have had earthquakes, hurricanes and plenty of tornadoes along with other small scale things. What set Katrina apart was the amount of devastation along with the large displacement of people. Its one thing when most can return to their general area quickly but many could not due to the flooding. Camps and other relocating is vital and we where not prepared to handle it in a timely organized matter and the public was not prepared to be relocated instead of taking it as help they looked at it as punishment. Those of us who consider ourselves self reliant often have to reevaluate our level of readiness when a disaster strikes we learn some thing new to thing about. Did you know that their have been multiple earthquakes minor mostly unnoticeable in OK and AR recently. Gives you a new perspective on thing's. My main point is that while we ask are we ready many also question the acts it takes to get prepared. Sometimes we look at actions by our government like those who do not agree with our choices as quacks/ survivalist dangerous types.

[MissouriFree]

Close, Carol Ann, but not quite.

IMO, "WE" didn't flunk Katrina - the people of New Orleans did.

"WE" have done a lot better in Hurricaines Andrew and Hugo, in the Loma Prieta and Northridge quakes, in myriad tornados, floods, blizzards, major fires, major traffic snarls, bridge failures, and countless other disasters.

Where there has been a complete breakdown of order one can almost say there wasn't any order to begin with. The 'social controls' have to be internal to each person. As Paul Harvey used to say, self government can't work without self control.

Let's imagine a disaster striking, say, the Crown Heights part of NYC. This neighborhood is half black and half Hassidic Jewish. In such a disaster, expect the blacks to riot, loot, and make mayhem on each other - while the Ultra-orthodox hunker down, draw closer together, and continue with relatively normal lives.

This is not a racist speculation; this is exactly what happened in that neighborhoods' last spart of rioting.

Were a disaster to strike central Pennsylvania, do you think there would be mobs of Amish farmers prowling the countryside, looting each other?

Thus, I think the 'lesson' of Haiti is that the most important parts of 'preparedness' are you and your neighbors.

Like that grasshopper of folklore, the Haitians refused to prepare for either the quake, or the regular hurricaines. The refused to rebuild in ways that would have survived. Even their public and institutional buildings - where one cannot claim poverty as a factor - were built to fail.

Then, once disaster struck, they couldn't resist preying upon each other. Why do you think the dead were so quickly uncovered? To rob the corpses. Unpleasant, but likely. Rather than rebuild, they grabbed their knives and went looking for more loot.

Looking back at Katrina, you see the same mistakes being made all over again by those people. I doubt the next disaster will be any different. A dysfunctional society is a dysfunctional society. It wasn't George Bush looting those perfectly fine stores in the undamaged parts of town.

So, if you're going to face disaster, locate yourself where you have good neighbors. That's the first defense. With good neighbors, the disaster won't be near as bad nor last near as long as it will be if you have bad neighbors. With good neighbors you'll be helping each other up - rather than keeping each other down.



it is gratifiying to know that America is made up of "we's" and "them's" .. so as long as you are a "We" then I guess everything will be ok.

OPPS i forgot the "You's" -- "we Americans", "them Americans" and "You Americans"

[CarolAnn]

I confess to not knowing much about Haiti before this thing hit - other than that they were really, really poor. I've read a little and they were pretty much starving and homeless before the earthquake. Only 40% of their kids get to start school. Not much hope of a prepared population when they can't even read! Someone said, They just keep BREEDING! - and I agree with that frustration and exasperation - seems logical if you can't take care of kids, don't HAVE them. But that's not much of a chance either, with an uneducated population. In the end, if they get some schools built and some help with infrastructure, this quake could be good for the country. (I won't say "best thing that could have happened to them," as I've heard on the radio - no one needs to have their children and other kinfolks squashed in a poorly built building in exchange for schools and roads.)

But as for what have "WE" learned from it - I hope we figure out that we need to practice in our own communities for various disasters, think it out, do personal AND community planning for it. If a natural disaster hits my neighborhood, I intend on helping as much as I can . . . and hope for help from my neighbors as much as THEY can. Together we're much more than any of us alone.

[backlash]

I watched the media coverage from Haiti and I can tell you the number 1 thing I have learned.
If you don't want to be squatting in the filth, hungry, thirsty, and with all hope lost you had better be prepared to take care of yourself.
Thousands of people all crowded together waiting for somebody else to save them is not where I want to be.
We will have enough supplies to survive a long period of time without outside help.
We aren't there yet but we are working on it as fast as we can.

America is made up of we and them.
I'll go even further and say it's made up of me and them.

In times of plenty I help those I can, but in hard times I will not help someone to the detriment of my family.

They just keep BREEDING!

I guess they don't have anything else to do.

[Pokeberry Mary]

In my opinion life is a gift and death is going to happen to all of us.

It is not someone's fault when an earthquake happens.

It is not someone's fault when they are born poor.

Eliminating people is not going to fix the problem there is no guarrantee anyone here won't die in a disaster or for some uncontrollable become poor someday.

Perhaps nobody should have children--then we'll never have to share or feel bad about anything.

Or exist.

[Pokeberry Mary]

Here is my grand-daughter--unplanned and sort of inconvenient. ;)

Thank God her folks and their folks were OK with it.
May she grow up to have a charitable view of those who suffer in this life and faith to believe that there is a better one to come.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlgk7OyVoyk

[CarolAnn]

Pokeberry Mary -
Your granddaughter is beautiful! And although most kids are inconvenient and many are unplanned . . . looks like she's being well loved and taken care of.

I hope I didn't come across as uncharitable toward the poor in Haiti. Because I'm sure most of them DO love their kids and want to take care of them - they just don't have the means. No education = no job = no hope of improvement.

Beyond food and help now through this desperate crisis, they need education so they can help themselves in the long term, make their own jobs and lead themselves the way they choose.

[Pokeberry Mary]

I think I was responding to prickling in my heart at an idea expressed earlier. It is a 'thought' to think sometimes that the poor should not have children.

Tempting to think. But look then a little bit further. Those places where this is done in a mandatory way--who now takes care of the old?

I guess I feel strongly about life and about faith. These things like what happened in Haiti--they are horrible things as well all see.

But what should we take from it really?

I mean this is a forum where many are trying to prepare for the future--but how far is it we take our preparation. I ask that because I remember Jesus talked about it. He talked about the man who built bigger barns to hold his preparations for the future--and then when he finally thought he could rest, he died.

There is another admonition in scripture that says we should store up our treasure in heaven where moth and rust cannot corrupt.

I always felt that meant to invest in helping those who like the folks in Haiti and many places, are so needy in this life. I feel really the only things I can take from Haiti are warnings and admonishments to truly consider ourselves--are we ready for this? Are we ready spiritually? Because we have seen with our eyes a case where no other preparation was worth a fig.

If all your stuff is in your house--what happens when that house is suddenly flattened?

I remember Y2K and I had a friend who had 2 grain grinders in case one should break in the midst of hard times-- well she ended up giving me one--which was kind of her--and eventually I sold it for a little money to someone preparing. I didn't need it anymore, I don't need to make much more bread these days.

Anyhow--This is not something I wanted to say to anyone person--but we do need to consider that this life is going to end. We also need to realize that not a soul of the people in Haiti is less loved by God than we are.

Yet look what has happened. I guess I take away a solemn respect and awe for God and for the terrible things that can happen and a greater appreciation for those I love--the ones who are capable as well as the needy.

[FarmerChick]

One thing I learned is I sure don't want to be in ANY major city if any natural disaster happens.

I think "more rural" is diserable....but of course if you are trapped under your home you best hope that people can get out to you.

Being more isolated can seen wonderful, til you truly need lots of helping hands to survive. Catch 22 I guess.

[trapperjoe]

I hear `ya Pokeberry. And I know you must surely be a very loving, caring soul.
But,
As you said, "it`s not your fault you`re born poor."
But it is your resposability to change that, if you want to. And If you can`t/won`t change it, and can`t take care of yourself, common sense would tell you not to cause the next generation to suffer in the same way, ie; poor and starving. So you don`t produce kids. Yup, it`s in our nature (generally) to want to make a family. All animals want to do that. But as HUMAN animals we can reason. And it`s just not reasonable to put children that we love in the middle of such poor living conditions.
Even some animals don`t produce as many offspring in "bad" years, or if they are injured or are in poor health. Coyotes don`t have as many pups in years when food is in short supply. Surely any human is smarter than a coyote? Or, are we sometimes like sea turtles? We have a bunch of children in the hope that one or two survives to carry on?
Sometimes the only way to wrap your mind around these terrible events is to just "let go and let God" as they say. I just can`t get over the facts as we see them though.
Even here in my little midwest hometown, people smart enough to know how/why babies are made, just keep having them, and causing the rest of us to pay for them. What kind of plan is that? Is it just a lack of self-control?

(this is not meant to be political)
I`m just trying to understand.....



I do wish the very best to all those suffering from the earthquake.

Joe

[Pokeberry Mary]

I think when I look at areas like Haiti--the 'idea' or 'concept' of not having children as a responsible choice--I don't think those people know such thinking.
I also don't think they have the resources for that sort of choice and if they did--would likely not understand.

This kind of life is what they know.

Also we forget not everyone in Haiti was poor. The problems they have stem from corruption at the top for many years. Which I think is often the case in almost all the situations like this. If the governments would protect the people and not take advantage of them and would provide for them with the money available instead of keeping it for some elite group or other-- then they could overcome these things.

Family cares for family but in some countries the entire family is without the means to manage and their governments respond by subjecting them to harsh restrictions and oppressing policies so that they can't overcome.

Here we have a shot if we work at it--that is not the case everyplace.


Back to the original question-
What I learned from Haiti- I have what I think are reasonable preparations for a disaster--but I think there is no way to prepare for any and all situations. My first thought has always been in that you need water. A source of water you can get to without power or travel. If you don't have that nothing else will help you.

I also think it is going to be safer in the country than in crowded cities which are entirely reliant on the lights being on. On the other hand there are some resources in the city--but they could be unavailable. Lets all hope we never have these things happen.

[trapperjoe]

I agree Mary, I don`t think they understand.
I also agree that "bad" govt. are to blame for taking lots of the aid money for themselves.

Joe

[CarolAnn]

I have a brother who lives not far from the San Andreas fault in California. He's owned his house and land for years - and knows the risks, not only from earth quakes, but from the regular fires that rage over the mountains behind his property. He's one of the rare, fortunate ones who has a huge area in front of his house - and he lets the local fire department stage their trucks there when there's a fire. (Not a bad idea to make friends with THOSE guys!) He also has a camper for a quick flit if he needs it, and that's stocked with not only water and basic food supplies, but water filter, etc. If he's not actually crushed by his house in a quake - he'll be better off than 99.9% of his neighbors! You can only do what you can with what you've got!

[Cat Lover]

Carol Ann, you're on to something ....

I recall the house near Oakland, that survived a wildfire largely untouched - while the rest of the neighborhood was reduced to ashes.

I recall the Illinois church that withstood a direct hit by a tornado- when the school across the street was flattened. (Airial pics made clear the chruch was directly hit, and not just 'close.')

I recall the intact buildings amidst the rubble of the '73 LA quake.

! recall the Korean merchants successfully repelling rioting mobs, in the "Rodney King" riots.

I recall a friend prevailing over a flood that destroyed his RV campground- simply because he kept his camper mobile.

So, I think the first lesson is to anticipate what will happen, and recognize that you can prevail.

I will soon move to a place that can best be described as "where hurricaines go to die." It's on reclaimed swampland, next to one of the world's largest rivers, and atop a major fault as well.

Economically depressed, the area has plenty of housing "bargains." Though building codes are exceedingly weak, I shall consider earthquake, wind loading, and flooding in reconstructing my home-to-be. I will also allow for criminal element. When one - or more - of the cyclical disasters strike, I shall have planned NOT to be a victim.

Hostile natives? Did that hold back Daniel Boone? Did Abe Lincoln shy away from hewing logs when he needed a cabin? Some folks are so silly as to pine for the 'old days,' not realizing that it is only the form of the pioneer that changes - not the substance.