How much land do you need?

[Kelleysvt]

Eventually we hope to get a larger piece of land but were unsure of the size we'd need to be truly self-sufficient (including firewood). It's the firewood that's the great variable for us don't know how big a woodlot we would need to be able to sustain a modest home. We live in VT so I'm guessing we'd need several acres. I've always guessed about 7-10 but now I'm wondering if we could pull it off with 5 or less. We'd like to keep it small to minimize property taxes.

[Anon001]

Kelleysvt,

You could pull it off but it would sure not be easy. However, I don't think you would be able to include the firewood in being self-sufficient on just 5 or 10 acres. It takes a lot of wood for heating and/or cooking. The smaller the woodlot, the more intensive the management. Also, I never cut green trees unless it is Hedge (Osage Orange) or Locust. The rest of what I cut comes from already dead wood. So, in my case it takes much more timber to supply me in 2 cords per year of firewood.

The smaller the parcel of land, the higher costs per acre, usually. Also, the smaller the land, the more creative you have to get with income potential. To find what you want you may or may not need to consider relocating. I don't know what your taxes are in that area but, just as an example, my taxes on this 160 acres is just under $500 per year for the land and small house. I am in NE Kansas but it is not flat and dry like Western Kansas. It is more similar to Missouri. Land in this area starts at around $1100 per acre for about 80 acres and more. As the parcel gets smaller the cost per acre goes up.....way up. lol

To be self-sufficient, you have to produce all your own vegetables, meat, poultry, and dairy. You have to have room to graze as well as hay to cut and bale. Your extension agent can tell you the ratio of various types of animals per acre for grazing which depending on types of grass and geographic location.. They can also tell you how many pounds per head of hay they consume and the ratio of tons of hay per acre produced..... So, I would talk to the extension agent of the area you look to buy in.

Good luck. I look forward to reading responses to your post.

[kawalekm]

Hi Kelly
Like Paul, I can supply all our firewood needs just from dead wood on the property. One reason I can do that is because our homestead is 40 acres. Here's an oak I was bucking up last year that was blown over right into my orchard.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/kawalekm/Sawingthefallenoak.jpg
I would strongly discourage you from going with the minimum size parcel you can find. I wouldn't recommend less than 10, I'd be looking for 20 or more.

More land equals more flexibility. Perhaps an ideal parcel for you might be a twenty acre parcel with 10-15 acres of wood, 5-10 acres of pasture, and 2-3 acres for your home/barn/garden/orchard/ect.

If you can't find something with a big enough woodlot, are there alternatives in your area like public lands harvesting? Out here, you can get a firewood cutting permit from the Forest Service to cut 10 cords of wood for 20$. The Forest Service even supplies maps to already cut areas where scraps on the ground are easy pickins. Does the state of Vermont have anything like that?
Michael

[Kelleysvt]

I guess I should qualify my first post with a little background. We are in our mid 30's with 4 children ages 2-16. Our income is pretty limited right now so we are 'learning' on this small lot that we already own. We hope to move on to a MUCH larger parcel after my first two move out of the house, maybe even in another state. DH likes North Carolina, I'd prefer Wyoming or Montana.

VT is VERY expensive, our taxes on a 700sq ft house on .75 acre are over $1000/year and we live in a relatively cheap tax area. We recently looked at a completely undeveloped 40 acre lot here in our town and they were asking 80,000 for it. We're feeling pretty trapped with the housing market the way it is right now. Unable to unload this place, unable to afford anything else.

Since we've decided to become more self sufficient we feel that it's best to do as much as we can on this property until we have a better opportunity. So we've started small with chickens and a garden and we're learning as much as we can as we go along, experimenting and reading all the time.

We're also expecting DH will be deployed to Afghanistan just after Christmas so we won't be in a position to move til after he gets back in 2010 or 2011. So (if you subscribe to 2012 TEOTWAWKI) we don't want to waste a minute. (Personally I'm more concerned with 2009 than 2012...) The sooner we're self sufficient the better in my book - even if it's baby steps. I'm looking at this as an opportunity to make mistakes on a small scale before we move on to 'the big game'...LOL

[Anon001]

You must be a proud woman to have a husband devoting time to his country. Give him my thanks.

You can start small. The biggest thing is to be out of debt and stockpile every penny you can get your hands on. This will help you find a larger place when he does come home.

I think 80K is too much money for 40 acres. I have 40 acres I would sell for that! LOL I bought this 160 where my house is in Feb 1997. In May 1998, I moved a 27' bumper pull camping trailer up here. I paid either $1700 or $1750 for it. I lived in it while I dismantled (nail by nail) a hay barn and a dairy barn. The farmer was happy to rid himself of the barns and the lumber so he could build bigger and newer high tech buildings. I also helped a guy tear down an 100 year old small victorian style house for the lumber, stone, etc.

To make this story short, I have less than $5,000 invested in my house. But it was paid for when it was built. I lived in the camping trailer from May 1998 to Sep or Oct 2002. (Sometimes I still miss it. lol)

So, if you and your family are resourceful enough, you can pay a bit more for the land and build cheap... nice, but cheap. But you also have to think about the taxes as you already stated.

I will say that it will be easier to be truly self-sufficient on 40 acres than on 5 or 10 acres.

Good Luck....
Paul

[Kelleysvt]

Thanks Paul - that's the kind of answer I was hoping for. Ultimately we do want to be fully self sufficient. DH would love nothing more than to work at home, on the land, and make cash by doing auto work in our own yard (garage or barn hopefully - helps when the weathers yucky).

Oh how we dreamed about that 40 acres but it was just out of reach. We went over and walked it several times... Just not our time yet, but God is good and will provide the perfect piece of land when the time IS right!

[Anon001]

What would be nice is if you could find some ground now and pay on it while he's gone. *Then when he gets back, you could start building a cabin or whatever else you need. *But, if you are willing to look at relocating, then I would do that. *You should be able to find ground for $1000 an acre that will sustain you. *You might have to relocat, but you should be able to find it with good enough soil, rainfall, grass, etc. to support your homesteading, especially if he will be a home mechanic. *Just make sure that where you decide on is good enough ground to support a nice garden, pasture, hay, etc. *Part of being self-sufficient is being able to produce your own hay or having things to produce that can be sold or bartered for hay and feed. *Also, *some cattle are "easy keepers" and really won't require feed in addition to grass or hay. *However, you have to be selective. The exception is a milk cow. *A cow's milk production is tied to her quality and quantity of protein. *If you have milk goats, you will also want to pay attention to diet. *Dairy animals require more in their dietary needs. *However, you can still get a lot of milk just on grass and hay.

Water is another consideration. *You will want to make sure you have a good water source. *You want either a creek, or stream, or a spring, pond, etc. *Wells are great, but you need electricity or a windmill to get it out of the ground. *I prefer rainwater, even for drinking. *Mine is filtered, chlorinated, and refiltered. *It won't dry out skin like well water or municipal water. *It won't corrode your pipes or water heater with minerals. *You use a LOT LESS soaps and detergents with rain water. *Many benefits and free. *However, some states have laws making rainwater collection illegal such as Colorado and Washington. *

Also, check zoning and planning in any prospective county and make certain you will be allowed to do what you want. *For example, will you be required to use licensed contractors and electricans or can your DH do it. *How much do they charge for building permits and on what type of buildings. *Also, at the courthouse, check for any easements and rights-of-way that anyone or any company, utility, etc may own.

Anyway.... If you liked the 40 acres for $80K, You could also find a good 40 acres for $40K that would provide for a nice homestead.

Paul

P.S. I forgot to mention that not too far from me, about a week or so back, they auctioned 66 acres, on a blacktop, that only brought $76K. It was good ground... timber, pasture, hay, etc.

[russcolorado]

Hi,

Another thought if your issue is taxes. Most states tax you based on usage. Usually, taxes on land used for a home or businesses are high, agriculture or ranching is lower and undeveloped (e.g. wood lot) is lowest of all. Maybe you coould take advantage of this and buy two parcels

[Anon001]

Hi,

Another thought if your issue is taxes. *Most states tax you based on usage. *Usually, taxes on land used for a home or businesses are high, agriculture or ranching is lower and undeveloped (e.g. wood lot) is lowest of all. *Maybe you coould take advantage of this and buy two parcels
Russ has a good point as well. However, here, ours may be taxed based on ag, but it also has to be a certain size, I think. Not only that, but they subtracted the house and an automatic 3 acres to tax as "rural residential" rather than "agriculture". but my taxes still only come to just under $500 a year on this place.

[Kelleysvt]

VT has a current use tax meant to help support agriculture. I'm not sure how that would affect taxes since our current lot is so small it's hard to compare. I like Paul's point about getting finances in order while DH is overseas. That's key to our plan. We get extras while he's overseas including a mandatory reduction on all interest rates charged. last time he was deployed it was 4% - boy did that help out! Plus income earned outside the US isn't subject to Federal Income Tax. We're only half looking forward to this, obviously the financial benefits will be amazing but the sacrifice is difficult. DH is proud to serve though and hopefully this will be his last deployment (he only has about 5 years left before he can 'retire' from the National Guard)

[Anon001]

Well, I think you know that you can count on people here. And if you start scouting new "areas" ask people on here about the areas they live in.

Good luck,
Paul

[harvester]

Well im in montana and i know it takes roughly 4 cord a year just on heating. We always bought our wood or went out and harvested it ourselves. We got very little firewood off of our property as we wanted some trees left and harvesting 4 cord a year off of 5 acres would have cleared the place in a few years. It was worth it to invest in a chainsaw and go get it from the forrests ourselves.
Depending on what kind of homesteading you are interested in, We had no problem supporting a family of 6 on 5 acres and 3 1/2 of those acres were horse pasture. We had goats, poultry, waterfowl, sheep and got one pig every year. Along with two gardens that were roughly 50'x50'. we had plenty. Gardening all depends on your methods as to the yearly yield you get. Raising livestock all depends on what your goal is with them and if you want to be able to make a bit of a profit as well.
Right now i live in another area of montana on a little over 1 1/2 acre (thanks to iminent domain we lost 1/2 an acre), I will be feeding three adults and one child. We have 3 goats, 2 are dairy, 1 is a meat breed, a garden that is roughly 50'x80', a dozen turkey poults, and roughly 30 chickens, 20 of which will go into the freezer along with all the turkeys. I have one stallion with a killer pedigree and a rare colored homozygous mare that will produce a colt every year to every other year that when sold will support all animals on the property for one year with a little left over. We are mostly self sufficient, there are just some things i refuse to make myself.

[steve]

we are just starting out and have only 2.5 acre what can we do with it

[steve]

i for got to say we have a well and a small house

[Anon001]

Steve. I see no one has responded. You ask what you can do with 2.5 acres. What do YOU want to do with it? What are your goals? Are you wanting to be self-reliant or are you just wanting to reduce your grocery bill and possibly reduce or do away with utility bills? Are you wanting to produce meat, vegetables, fruits, dairy?

There are several ways you can go on such a small acreage. For gardening, I would do something mroe intensive such as maybe container gardening combined with raised beds. Takes less room. For meat, consider rabbits, chickens and possible goats. Goats can double as meat and dairy. Also keep in mind that 2.5 acres will not allow you to raise any larger animals and the hay too. But you can possibly raise a bit of wheat for straw and flour. Depending on your area you might 30 to 40 bushels of wheat per acre although you can't raise much, you can replace your store bought breads by raising your own wheat.

I guess the other thing is location. You don't have a location listed in your profile so it will be hard for anyone to make any reasonable recommendations not knowing yoru location. The things I wrote would apply if you lived in the Heartland.

[pinetreefarm]

We are only on 2.5 acres but we have fruit trees, 12 maples for syruping, raspberries, blueberries, rhubarb and the vegetable beds. We grow our own herbs. We have chickens. We used to have rabbits.

We put up more than we can use so the rest of the family gets the surplus.

When we were young we wanted more land for some sheep (I spin) and for wheat but did not. We have to purchase our wheat and oat groats.

Pine

[steve]

paul and pinetreefarm that helps a lot we are in colorado in the mountains at about 8300 ft self-reliant every thing both of you said sounds good are growing season is from mid may to mid sept

[silvertip]

I too would like to Thank your husband for his selfless service to our country.

I also live in Montana, $80k for 40 acres isn't bad according to prices around here in the western end of the state.

Depending on where you are, the amount of land needed varies immensely. Here where the rainfall is scarce, you need a lot more land to support a cow than in more temperate areas. 1 cow calf pair can use up to 30 acres for summer grazing, and you will need roughly a ton to 2 tons of hay for the winter. That means a good 10 acre hayfield, and hopefully at least 2 cuttings of hay, then you can sell the excess.

If you grow corn or some of the other grain crops, or even hay, you will probably need irrigation as well.

We don't have much in the way of hardwoods here, and softwoods burn much faster than oak or hickory. I use about 3 cords of wood, but suppliment with pellets and propane for when I am at work or away from home to keep the pipes from freezing.

Our gardening season is pretty short. I don't plant anything that takes over 100 days. I have a small greenhouse for delicate plants like tomatoes, but root crops like potatoes or onions can be planted early. Our last frosts can come as late as May.

Land in the eastern end of the state is much cheaper, but not much for trees, and water can be a problem. The ground is super fertile, but the wind and drying sun can be a problem.

Best advice, do what you can with what you got. You may surprise yourself!

[remington]

For all my families needs I like fifty acres. I know it is a lot to manage but...I am growing all my own hay and feed for livestock, I have good pasture that I rotate to prevent overgrazing, and I have a large garden and orchard. Then there is wood cutting...

[MooseToo]

note that the question was "how much land do you need" and not "how much land would you like" -

i've known some folks, when money was not an issue, who would starve on a hundred fertile, well-watered acres -
and some do remarkably well on two or three acres -

all a matter of determination, patience and common sense -

good luck!

[rehabman]

How much land do you need?

Twice as much as you thought you did! ;D

[flatwater]

one good neighbor and one bad neighbor--- 40 acres
two bad neighbor's --- 1000 + acres
all good neighbor's --- a city lot

[Fred_47460]

Howdy KellySVT

According to the Readers Digest book "Back to Basics" ....(A VERY good book, I can't over recommend you find a copy if you can)...1 (ONE) acre of woodland can produce about 2/3 of a cord every year and never become depleted. The book goes on to claim that with 10 acres of woodland you should be able to harvest 6 to 7 cords a year....which the book goes on to say will heat an average 3 bedroom house.

The caveats I would like to add are that "woodlands" may vary from one area to another....depending on the type of trees, and the density of trees. Also, houses will vary as to their requirement for heat....and also it will make a difference if you intend to COOK entirely with wood as well. If you build in a little passive solar, and insulate REAL good, I would imagine you won't need 6 to 7 cords of wood. Of course WHERE you are will make a big difference with your heating needs (obviously, Montana will require more heating than Arkansas)

I live in Indiana....probably about average as far as winters over the US....and we heat about 2400 square feet with a wood burning furnace and about 7 cords of wood (I BUY my wood....it's a LOT easier for me to work a little overtime to pay for the wood than it is for me to do the cutting/splitting)

Edited: We lived in a 735 square foot log cabin for 15 years that was heated by a wood stove.....and we could heat the whole winter for about 3.5 cords a year. I know you have some kids....but the smaller you can build the better. A wood burning furnace really goes through wood in large amounts and fast. A smaller place with a wood stove would be MUCH easier to heat with wood!!
End of edit:

I hope this helps.....and good luck!! I hope you can swing the life change!!!

Fred

[LeatherneckPA]

VT has a current use tax meant to help support agriculture. I'm not sure how that would affect taxes since our current lot is so small it's hard to compare.
The definition of a farm employed by the USDA for data collection purposes is "any operation that sells at least one thousand dollars of agricultural commodities or that would have sold that amount of produce under normal circumstances."

Based upon that definition, Kelly, maybe you should contact your state Dept of Ag and see what constitutes a farm in VT. You might be able to qualify for lower taxes that way. Notice that the USDA says sells not profits. Our dozen hens let us sell about 5 dozen eggs a week at $2 a dozen, for an estimated $520 per year from eggs. We sold about half of our potted vegetable seedlings this year (the half we didn't use) and made about $300. Now, if I could just get my wife to let me start selling meat rabbits we'd easily be knocking down over that $1000 a year. Or maybe put a couple of beehives in the backyard. And we have less than a half acre on which is a house, large driveway, and an inground pool.

Howdy KellySVT

According to the Readers Digest book "Back to Basics" ....(A VERY good book, I can't over recommend you find a copy if you can)...

I know you have some kids....but the smaller you can build the better.
Back to Basics was my first exposure to the homesteading mentality, in the early '70's. Back then they called it the "back to the Earth" movement and the folks who tried it were called hippies. I totally agree with Fred, get a copy!! I wouldn't even loan mine out, except to one friend.

He's also right about that whole "smaller is better" part. Americans/Euros have bought into some strange ways of thinking over the years; manicured lawns, private bedrooms for each kid, a private bathroom for each bedroom, separate kitchen/dining rooms, and my personal favorite - rented storage facilities to hold all that "must have" crap we can't live without but use so seldom we can lock it up somewhere 20 minutes from home.

IMHO (OK, not so humble), far better to downsize the home and spend the extra money on land than to own a 3000+ sq ft average suburban McMansion.

[NCLee]

Hi, all - new here, but not new to this way of life.

May I suggest these two books for anyone trying to determine how much land they need. Use these as the starting point. Then, add to their advice what you need for your geographic area to succeed. Finally, add what you'd like to have.

Five Acres and Independence - A handbook for small farm management - I have the version shown in the link. Do a search to see a couple more versions.
http://www.amazon.com/Five-Acres-Independence-Handbook-Management/dp/0486209741/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245227881&sr=8-2

One Acre & Security - How to live off the earth without ruining it - Bradford Angier - I have the 1973 version. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=One+Acre+%26+Security&x=14&y=16

Both of these books are filled with sound advice and practical solutions to many situations on the homestead. If you can only choose 1, Five Acres is the best from the standpoint of land.
chapter 6: The Farm to Choose, 7: Where to Locate, 8: Lay and Lay-out of Land, 11: Renting vs Buying, 15: Water Supply, 21: Live Stock 33: Soil Surface Management, 50: Storage of Fruits and Vegetables

There's one more that I've literally worn out over the years. How to Make it On the Land - A complete guide to survival in the country - Ray Cohan There are even plans for a 3 room log cabin in this one, along with other useful structures.

Don't want to wear out my welcome with my first post, but I do hope you'll consider these books for your homestead.

Lee

[WileyCoyote]

I just think it is really hard to say how much land you need - because it depends on not only what you want to do on it, but what kind of soil it is.

Where I used to live in the Deep South, you could get 6-8 cows on 10 acres, and that included barns and chicken coops and a house. The soil was clay and very hard to put in fence posts, the climate was warm (6 weeks of winter - at 20 to 30 deg lows), and the soil was clay that had to be amended. You had to cut your own trees for firewood, because they wre plentiful but were also BIG moneymakers and people would fight over them - and many counties had ordinances where you couldn't cut the big ones even if they were sick or damaged without a permit.

Now I live in NE, the soil is sand, which is easy to sink in fenceposts and fence - but the wind blows a lot of the time and dries out the plants, and you need over 50 acres if you want to keep those same six cows. The grass is primo, but the sand is easily overgrazed and overstomped by hooves. Ranchers don't like dead trees, and all you have to do is ask them if you can clear the acreage down by the river or at their fenceline of deadwood, and they will be happy to let you.

So do you want to raise rabbits, chickens, cows and/or horses? Do you want/need a barn? Does it get cold enough to demand shelter? Does it get HOT enough to demand shelter?
Are you able to go out in frequent blizzards to hay and "brick" (salt lick and mineral lick) the cattle?

What sort of water access does the property have, how much are you allowed (lots of places restrict new wells or even river access) ? If you have water, where will your garden be, how BIG will it be, and will you have to irrigate? How long is your growing season? Can you extend it with hoop houses or portable greenhouses in both spring and fall? Are there too many trees to grow a decent crop of corn? If you plant fruit trees or bushes, how often can you harvest, or do 3 years out of 5 have spring cold snaps that kill off the flowers? If the property is dry, will it cost you more to water the trees/bushes/garden than it is worth? If the property is in a warm and humid area, you will have a lot more fungi and mold to treat and deal with too. It all costs.

Are you hoping to eventually sell your chickens, eggs, or produce? Does anyone else in the area? What will your competition be like, if you have two acres in squash, tomatoes, chickens, or milk cows - and the guy down the road has 100 - or 1,000? Will you have enough acreage (and equipment) to harvest winter hay, will you have enough acreage to grow that hay, will you need winter hay at all - or will you have to buy it?

Some folks can be quite content on two acres, others need more to do what they want. Speaking from a person who was frustrated with increasingly restrictive animal and plant ordinances, who grew a garden, peach trees, cherry bushes, and blackberries every year on 1/3 of an acre, I needed more! The more you have, the more you have to work with it, to get it and keep it where you want it at your chosen level of sustainability. It is totally subjective. JMHO.