Overpopulation VS Underpopulation

[Pokeberry Mary]

As long as I can remember there has been a push to have less children--I always had this heartfelt belief that something was terribly wrong with this thinking.

Now I am pretty much convinced that the proliferation of birth control and abortion and overpopulation teaching/belief/education is quite possibly at the root of many of the problems we have today.

What we have come to now it seems is a culture that doesn't value life and actively ostracizes or pressures people not to have too many children.

We have older folks who have saved all their lives to live high on the hog and do not feel any responsibility to help younger generations get a foot hold in life. We have young folks foregoing marriage and parenthood and instead striving to build careers like the old folks had--but without as much success.
We have an aging population that is drawing on social security and medicaid but not enough young folks to pay the bills for it.

People always point to the sprawl of big cities as 'proof' that we are overpopulated--but way out where its rural-- there are towns that are nearly abandoned.

I think what has happened is the population has been distributed mainly around cities and thus it appears there are too many people but in fact there may not be enough.

When there are MORE young folks there are more consumers or customers who need goods, thus more folks who are employed making and selling goods--thus a healthier economy.

When there are more young folks in a family there is more of a chance that someone in the family could actually tolerate living with grampa--thus he's got a place to go other than some $mulit-thousand per month 'home' that isn't a home.

Traditional values where someone actually is at home to take care of kids-- has got to have an effect on crime rates as well.

The older I get the more I think--we've bought into a big time lie all over the world we're reducing our populations and we're devaluing family, motherhood, babies, and the elderly.

I also think we've been sold a bill of goods when it comes to energy. I'm betting there's plenty of energy for all of us-- but we're just not using it.

So my philosophy is that a couple who wants to make the smartest choice for their old age would have try to have at least twice the amount of babies it would take to 'replace them', maybe more.

If you happily and lovingly do your diapering duty then perhaps your offspring will not mind so much returning the favor as you get old.

[backlash]

I think we have more than enough people in this country.
You are right, they're just all living in the wrong places.
Big cities.
If teotwawki really happens you can bet all the people will be doing their best to get out of the cities and into the country.
By then it will be to late.
This country seems to have lost the meaning of family.
Everyone is so busy chasing the American dream they have forgotten what the dream is.
They people I admire are the ones like I see here.



I just read a story about a family that moved from Fla. to N.D.
They were given free land but they are moving back to Fla.
They didn't fit in.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100216/ap_on_re_us/us_saving_hazelton

[Pokeberry Mary]

I used to live in N. Dakota--just for one year. I found the folks to be just fine. I've also lived in Florida and got along with people there too. I think you just have to step up and put your best foot forward and generally you'll be accepted most places.

I suppose it could take awhile sometimes though- if I were them I'd have tried to hang in there--though going from the south to N. Dakota--now there's other issues there--like the weather.:eek:

[momma_to_seven_chi]

I think the wrong people are having too many children. If they can't house them and support them then they shouldn't have 8-10 kids just to get more welfare. (I know that sounds mean, but it's true.)

As far as big families, as long as the parents can care for them, it is nobody's business how many they have. A lot of people put down others for having big families, but if it doesn't cost you money, it is none of your business.

Our niece is an unmarried teen mommy. That is sad, but she lives with her parents. They support her and her son, so she isn't on welfare. So even if a child has a child, it isn't always a drain on society. It's not a perfect situation, but it's not as bad as the people who have lived on state aid generation after generation using babies as cash advances.

[Pokeberry Mary]

Since I have a pregnant daughter who really can't afford a baby right now--I can't say much except that I believe no child is an accident. If we have to help her-- so be it.

Also--my neice had a baby at 18 and it really got her attention. She grew up as a person. She finished school, worked and went on to become an Lpn and will have her RN in a couple months. She is also now in a stable relationship and plans to marry and buy a house soon. Baby is 7 now and she is a lovely intelligent and well loved little girl.

[trapperjoe]

"No child is an accident" Then your daughter made the decision to get pregnant on purpose? How does her (husband) feel about it? I hope he (the Dad) will be a positive, active, present role model in the babys life.

I decided long ago that children were not part of my plan. My elders said I might change mind! Could be, but I doubt it. I just can`t afford to raise children... at least not MY OWN ! It`s all I can do to earn enough to keep "other peoples kids" in diapers!!
I suppose I could go out and start "making babys" all around the town... I guess I don`t need to be there to support them.
Humans are the smart animals. We can decide when to "breed".
Sometimes, Love is NOT enough.

Joe

[Mom5farmboys]

"No child is an accident" Then your daughter made the decision to get pregnant on purpose? How does her (husband) feel about it? I hope he (the Dad) will be a positive, active, present role model in the babys life.

I decided long ago that children were not part of my plan. My elders said I might change mind! Could be, but I doubt it. I just can`t afford to raise children... at least not MY OWN ! It`s all I can do to earn enough to keep "other peoples kids" in diapers!!
I suppose I could go out and start "making babys" all around the town... I guess I don`t need to be there to support them.
Humans are the smart animals. We can decide when to "breed".
Sometimes, Love is NOT enough.

Joe

I agree no child is an accident......as for humans deciding when to breed, I got my tubes tied after our 4th son was born, and SURPRISE!! #5 came along, we have decided that he was just meant to be here, I was ready to be done having babies but I wouldn't send him back now for anything!! Things have a way of working out OK.

Every baby is a blessing. IMHO

[backlash]

Every baby is a blessing but some adults are a curse.
How does that happen?:confused:

[Mom5farmboys]

Every baby is a blessing but some adults are a curse.
How does that happen?:confused:

Environment??

[cinok]

Many of changes in the size of families is related to the change from a need for children to help the family. As families migrated to the cities then the suburbs there was less of a need for extra hands.

[momma_to_seven_chi]

Many of changes in the size of families is related to the change from a need for children to help the family. As families migrated to the cities then the suburbs there was less of a need for extra hands.

And at that same time in history, birth control because more widely accessible.

[trapperjoe]

I`m new to the forum and should not have made my post as personal as I did. Sorry Mary. I`ll generalize more in the future.

Joe

[Pokeberry Mary]

I`m new to the forum and should not have made my post as personal as I did. Sorry Mary. I`ll generalize more in the future.

Joe

Thank you Joe I appreciate the apology, I know you are sincere in it.

[offgridbob]

who makes the rules for what over population is. if God does or man kind does. God never makes a mistake but mankind is always screwing up. Not a hard choice for me.

[trapperjoe]

I "think" Bob is right... God does not make mistakes. But people sure make a lot of mistakes.
Be fruitfull and multiply. That`s one way to look at it. Then ask yourself, why do a lot of "Families" stop having kids? Shouldn`t they keep multiplying? Why do they stop? Because God also gave us free will, and the ability to think and reason. Hopefully we will make wise, timely choices about when and how many children to have. My opinion is that I have NO right to make life choices for myself that I can`t/won`t be responsible for.

Joe

[Pokeberry Mary]

I think this thread kind of strayed off track.

I was really talking originally about the general idea that its best for the planet/culture/economy and etc that people have less children.

Anyhow, I do not see it working out for any place that has tried it.

A generation gets old--like our current situation with the baby boomers--and there are not enough younger people in the workforce or at home or with $$/time/patience etc to take care of them.

Also the economy doesn't improve with less consumers, nor does the environment improve when population is purposely reduced-- as in China-- a huge polluter, with a privileged few enjoying good times while the vast majority are quite poor.

funny how the plans of man tend toward making things worse.

[Terri]

This is interesting: http://www.census.gov/population/www/popclockus.html

It says that it is immigrtion that prevents our national population from shrinking, as people in this country are dying faster than they are being born.

[backlash]

population is purposely reduced-- as in China

I read an interesting theory about China's one baby policy and most families wanting a boy.
Due to the lack of women many men cannot find a wife.
Therefore they have no wife and kids to return home during a war.
Makes them more dedicated soldiers.

[Cutter]

It seems there is no birth control in Africa and you can see there starving faces on TV almost every day. Of course it then becomes our problem. Who's going to come to our aid when we have the starving population?

[Lurch]

I think this old Earth would do just fine without any people on it. No offense intended, just an observation.

[momma_to_seven_chi]

It seems there is no birth control in Africa and you can see there starving faces on TV almost every day. Of course it then becomes our problem. Who's going to come to our aid when we have the starving population?

That has a lot to do with political manipulation of the food supply and famines in some areas too. It isn't all do to population.

[cinok]

I read an interesting theory about China's one baby policy and most families wanting a boy.
Due to the lack of women many men cannot find a wife.
Therefore they have no wife and kids to return home during a war.
Makes them more dedicated soldiers.
Yes but with out women how can the country continue on. Unless they are going to take the family out of it and just have breeders.

[Pokeberry Mary]

I'm gonna say that children aren't causing the problems in Africa its the very evil governments in many of the nations there--and some also crazy imported ideologies-- hey, we're 'Helping'. We'll give you birth control and stuff like that, and you agree to take your edible meat and fence it off in huge areas, while you let the folks starve and prosecute them if they poach. Better would be allowing the folks to domesticate the wildlife and eat the meat.

Its monkey business.

Also-- when a person chooses to have children or not --that is a 'free' man or woman's choice. Who should make that decision?

If we believe our Founders --we should, or God.

Because-- we hold these truths to be self-evident. That we are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights, ..

among which are LIFE, LIBERTY and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.

If you want children, you should have the liberty to chose to have them, and the responsibility to raise them to be good citizens. If you don't--that is your choice--your personal liberty and pursuit of happiness for yourself--however it should not encroach on anyone else's right to live or be free.

No nation is poor because it has people--Tyrants and criminal governors--those are what make a nation poor. And sometimes, often even, the tyranny is of a religious form--because that gives more control over the folks.

[Laura]

As long as I can remember there has been a push to have less children--I always had this heartfelt belief that something was terribly wrong with this thinking.

Agreed!!

Now I am pretty much convinced that the proliferation of birth control and abortion and overpopulation teaching/belief/education is quite possibly at the root of many of the problems we have today.

The desensitization of human life. First, it's "when does life begin". Just wait, it will be "when should life end". Man should never be in the business of playing "God".

What we have come to now it seems is a culture that doesn't value life and actively ostracizes or pressures people not to have too many children.

Correct. IMHO it is another way that 'man' pulls away from God's Ways and creates his own ways, to feel superior.

We have older folks who have saved all their lives to live high on the hog and do not feel any responsibility to help younger generations get a foot hold in life. We have young folks foregoing marriage and parenthood and instead striving to build careers like the old folks had--but without as much success.
We have an aging population that is drawing on social security and medicaid but not enough young folks to pay the bills for it.
People always point to the sprawl of big cities as 'proof' that we are overpopulated--but way out where its rural-- there are towns that are nearly abandoned.
I think what has happened is the population has been distributed mainly around cities and thus it appears there are too many people but in fact there may not be enough.
When there are MORE young folks there are more consumers or customers who need goods, thus more folks who are employed making and selling goods--thus a healthier economy.
When there are more young folks in a family there is more of a chance that someone in the family could actually tolerate living with grampa--thus he's got a place to go other than some $mulit-thousand per month 'home' that isn't a home.
Traditional values where someone actually is at home to take care of kids-- has got to have an effect on crime rates as well.

The older I get the more I think--we've bought into a big time lie all over the world we're reducing our populations and we're devaluing family, motherhood, babies, and the elderly.

HOME RUN! The bold hit the nail on the head. It's a big time lie. It is. It's a lie lie lie.

I also think we've been sold a bill of goods when it comes to energy. I'm betting there's plenty of energy for all of us-- but we're just not using it.

CORRECT! Lies lies lies.

So my philosophy is that a couple who wants to make the smartest choice for their old age would have try to have at least twice the amount of babies it would take to 'replace them', maybe more.

If you happily and lovingly do your diapering duty then perhaps your offspring will not mind so much returning the favor as you get old.

I believe that the Lord is in control. I believe that satan is the father of lies, and he is behind all of the lies being fed to us, to appeal to our selfish side.

If I had it to do all over again, I would have let the Lord decide my family size. Knowing what I know now.....I can see why so many buy into the lie. And so few trust in the Lord. I wish I would have known Him when I was 28......

[momma_to_seven_chi]

I believe that the Lord is in control.

When God created this earth, He knew how long it would be here, how much food, air, and energy we would need. It is here, in some form. Greed is the issue. Greed because few people control much of the earth's resources and try to maintain power by doing so. There is no real energy shortage, food shortage, water shortage...... Some forms of energy are always available, possibly not the exact same forms, but some forms. Some forms of food are always available that will sustain all life on earth. There is enough. It is simply the greed and tyranny of fallen human nature that is hurting the weak and poor.

[backlash]

Yes but with out women how can the country continue on. Unless they are going to take the family out of it and just have breeders.
China has 1.3 billion people.
They seem to be able to find enough women to keep the population thriving.
China Male-Female Ratio Worsening

SHANGHAI, China -- The lopsided male-female ratio in China caused by sex-selection abortions is worsening, pushed up to 120 men for every 100 women, a government newspaper says.
The report Thursday by the Shanghai Express newspaper on statistics from the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences did not give an official explanation for the disparity, but cited unnamed experts who blamed it in part on pro-abortion attitudes that value boys over girls.
"This kind of imbalance also surely has something to do with the family planning policy" of one child per couple the newspaper said.
Foreign groups blame the one-child policy for encouraging couples who want sons to abort female unborn children or kill baby girls. The resulting shortage of women has meant that tens of millions of men remain unmarried and childless.
On average in the rest of the world, 106 baby boys are born for every 100 girls, but more boys die in childhood and the numbers tend to even out by adulthood.
China has enforced the pro-abortion one-child limit since the early 1980s to coercible slow the growth of its population.

[Laura]

It is simply the greed and tyranny of fallen human nature that is hurting the weak and poor.


Bingo.

The Lord didn't make a mistake, and humans cannot do anything that the Lord has not planned. We cannot out smart Him or out think Him. That is Pride and Arrogance to think in this way!!

It goes back to the Fall......man.....wants to be like God.
There is nothing new under the sun!!

Laura

[cubcadet]

It seems there is no birth control in Africa and you can see there starving faces on TV almost every day. Of course it then becomes our problem. Who's going to come to our aid when we have the starving population?

The trouble with Africans is that Africa is run by murderous thugs who live or used to live high on the hog on the conscientious efforts of the white Boer farmers who built Africa on the European model. Now that Africa has been bequeathed to those who cannot hope to sustain it, the white farmers are being genocided. Black marxist thugs take advantage of their own people, starving them to death, while at the same time killing the white man who feeds their own race.

[LoiDreams]

I believe that Abortion is legalized murder. I don't care if the child has mental or physical disabilities it is still a human being. God has a plan for that person and they are a GIFT from God not a curse. Abortion for the sake of pure inconvenience is COLD BLOODED MURDER WITH MALICE AFORETHOUGHT. Our children are being taught that killing a child before it is born is OKAY:eek:. I know, the indoctrination started with my generation. For a while there I bought into it. MY BODY MY CHOICE. CRAP!!!! I finally GREW UP and quit being so selfish I could contemplate muder for the sake of my own conveniece. There is still an ongoing political argument for partial birth abortion. A child that if allowed to be born naturely would be alive!! On top of that do you have any idea how long the waiting list is for adoption? And yes I already know that most people want (perfect healthy) babies, and that there are older foster children waiting for adoption. It takes a very special person to adopt a child that has been ROYALLY screwed up by their Parent(s) and our Lovely foster system. I have let all three of my daughters know that I understand that sometimes the heat of the moment can go too far, creating a life. My oldest at 27 is such a case. That they should try to avoid letting things go so far that this could happen. But, if this happens and they cannot afford or are incapable of raising the child WE will step in and raise it. I am happy to say that my twenty year old is still a virgin and intends to remain so until she marries. So Far So Good. It helps that we have had alot of candid conversations about my wild youth and how much of it I regret. My youngest is 10 and is a little too young to worry about too much. when she is a little older not much older I will start telling her my stories too.

LoiDreams

[LoiDreams]

It seems that about half the time I open my big mouth and share my opinion the thread dies a sudden death. Don't let me ruin the fun.

LoiDreams

[offgridbob]

You don't kill a thread, there is just a natural end that comes. It is what it is

[bookwormom]

okay, my husband remembered that I used to like Mother Earth News, like in the eighties, so he got me a surprise subscription. what do I find? 30 years ago they were belly aching about population explosion and that we need to slow it down, and they are still about the business. I felt like telling those folks, hey people, seems like most of the Northern hemisphere, at least those of what we call Western Culture, and definitely the readers of that mag, have reduced their breeding to such an extent that they are below replacement. But Western Countries are not getting empty, streames, what am I saying, torrents, of people who have not heard they were supposed to reproduce less, keep pouring in. When was it that whites were supposed to become a minority in their former own country? yes, lets stop having kids alltogether so there will be more room for them.
The one child policy of China may have been a desperate measure. From what I hear those single child little boys are the worst spoiled brats. It is not so much the government but the remnants of the old culture that put little value on a girl that caused families to abort girl babies. Less than a hundred years ago it was not uncommon for a mother in law to put a pillow on a new born girl's head because she was not a boy. That has nothing to do with population controll. Oh boy, I know it is vindictive of me, but I would just love to see the faces of some of those paternal grandmothers, when their pride and joy can't get a wife. I don't know, maybe once all the old people have died off, there will be less crowding in China. No one can accuse the Chinese of not trying to keep a grip on their problems, and they are not whining at our door, which , as cubcadet pointed out, can't be said for everyone.

[Jeff]

Overpopulation is definitely a problem. It happens when the population is too large for the limited resources. You can see when the overpopulation number is hit when a civilization collapses. It has happened many times in the past.

It also happens with animals. There will be an abundance of a food resource, a species of animal will have a population explosion, eventually the number of animals will outstrip the resource, and then there will be a die off. Usually about a 95% die off. It's called the J-curve. It's simple math really.

Also the overpopulation of humans is shown by the fact that the Earth cannot clean our pollution up fast enough. It is accumulating. What will happen when there is not enough clean drinking water for all of us? Who decides who drinks and who doesn't? The rich?

Anyway, yeah, I think we are overpopulated. We are seeing the repercussions of that now. In the future, as resources such as food and water get to where there isn't enough for all of us, we will see more blatant repercussions in the future.

Just a thought.

[trapperjoe]

This post was brought to my attention again, so I backed up and read a bunch of the older comments. I think we disagreed once, but pokeberry mary hit the nail on the head with this line...

"If you want children, you should have the liberty to chose to have them, and the responsibility to raise them to be good citizens. If you don't--that is your choice--your personal liberty and pursuit of happiness for yourself--however it should not encroach on anyone else's right to live or be free."

BINGO! Have all the children you can afford to have and raise. They are YOUR responsibility to raise and feed and educate. If you can`t afford children, or have an unexpected pregnancy with the boy next door, I sure hope you have a loving, understanding, forgiving family that can help out with the baby. And, of course, get the (baby-daddy) involved too! I know Mary is that kind of family.
Not encroaching on my right to live or be free... My rights to live free and not support families I`ve never even met. My right to not have to pay for someone else` "life events" when I think they made very poor descisions and choices.
Joe

[offgridbob]

Pokeberry Mary, since you started the post could you define what over population is and who makes up the numbers, Then I could answer some questions or at least give my 2 cents worth

[macgeoghagen]

The way I see it, people who are choosing to have less children out of some concern for the environment are setting their descendants up for failure. They will be bred to extinction. If masses of people choose to have only one child per couple, each generation will be half the number of the one before it. In a closed system this will cause bad genes to pile up. in an open system people from somewhere else will move in to fill the gap. They will displace the original inhabitants. I intend to have as many as I can afford and train them as warriors who will do the same. Eventually they will be the ones doing the displacing.

[trapperjoe]

I agree Mac.
I think it`s great when good people have only as many children as they can afford. Why can`t everyone just see/realize how important it is to know when to say they have all the children they can handle? It`s not a contest you know! :)
I guess the people that disappoint me are the un-wed girls/women who get pregnant (sometimes several times) and they have no way to support those kids! Yet, they think it is some kind of "right" for them to have kids.
If that`s their right, then it should be their responsibility to support and care for those kids. They are NOT my kids, why do I have to help support them?
How about this... if you are single or married and have a child and get any Federal aid,(let individual states decide further regulations) then you have another child, you will be (cut-off) from further aid for any child except the first? Let`s face it, a lot of women/families have kids to get more money/aid. This seems to be a taboo subject...

My congratulations go out to all the families raising kids on their own. It`s not always easy, I know that. I also know that if we learn (again) to live within our means like our parents/grand-parents did, we would be so much better off.