Those Wonderful Wolves

[DM]

It amazes me that there are folks who are so ignorant that they think we need to re-introduce wolves into area's that were "cleaned out" many years ago... The following is NOT an isolated incident, and will become more common, only it will be here in the lower 48...

DM


Teacher likely killed by wolves, troopers say
CHIGNIK LAKE: Evidence points to attack by two or three animals, troopers say.
By JAMES HALPIN
jhalpin@adn.com
Published: March 11th, 2010 10:52 PM
Last Modified: March 11th, 2010 10:53 PM

Alaska State Troopers on Thursday concluded a woman found dead in Chignik Lake early this week was most likely killed in a wolf attack, and state authorities were headed there to try to capture or kill the animals.

Candice Berner, 32, appeared to have been killed Monday evening during a run along a remote road outside the Alaska Peninsula community, according to troopers.

The state medical examiner concluded, following an autopsy Thursday morning, that the cause of death was "multiple injuries due to animal mauling." Based on interviews with biologists and villagers in Chignik Lake, troopers concluded wolves were the animals most likely responsible, troopers spokeswoman Megan Peters said in a statement.

The state Department of Fish and Game still wants to conduct DNA testing to help study the incident, but troopers are convinced it was a wolf attack, troopers director Col. Audie Holloway said.

"We are as close to 100 percent certain as you can be," Holloway said.

[nhlivefreeordie]

There have already been many problems in areas where they have been re-introduced. There is a reason they were removed once by the settlers, humans and wolves don't mix. The best way to handle wolves is SSS.

[AlchemyAcres]

It amazes me that there are folks who are so ignorant that they think we need to re-introduce wolves.....

Hmmm...It amazes me that there are folks so ignorant they think that we need to re-introduce violent convicts into areas!!!!!



~Martin ;)

[nhlivefreeordie]

Hmmm...It amazes me that there are folks so ignorant they think that we need to re-introduce violent convicts into areas!!!!!



~Martin ;)

Touche`....good point.

[MooseToo]

Touche`....good point.

yeah - but same advice applies - S-S-S

[nhlivefreeordie]

yeah - but same advice applies - S-S-S

:D That right there is some funny stuff...:D

BTW, I totally agree

[Oblio13]

As usual, I'll take the minority view:

I like being in places that still have wolves, even just hearing them at night and knowing they're around defines wilderness for me.

As long as they're occasionally hunted, they should maintain a respect for humans, just as with bears and cougars.

If they frighten people into staying indoors and watching sitcoms, good.

[Travis]

It bothers me that we as humans must kill every animal in order to take over its habbitat. Then we are shocked when one kills a human.

[DM]

Well, there's two folks that haven't even lived around packs of wolves... I have...

Alaska allowed folks to shoot wolves on site, lots of townie folks cried like babies... So the Gov. offered to let you guys come get FREE wolves, to let go by YOUR kids, no one showed up...

I'd rather have a bear living under my house, than 2 wolves in my back woodlot!

DM

[mistyriver]

We've lived in wolf country and raised sheep, goats, chickens and horses here for the past 8 years. The only predator we've lost anything to was a hen-house marauding raccoon.
I've seen wolves with my own eyes on our land but they've never bothered us, even during lambing season. No doubt they would if we didn't have guardian dogs, but even if we lost a lamb or two, I'd consider it the cost of doing business in a place this beautiful. Wolves are supposed to be here...my livestock isn't.
Same with the grizzlies, wolverines and cougars that also are in this area.

[Oblio13]

If you're frightened of wolves, how do you deal with things that kill far more of us, like 5-gallon buckets, chairs and model airplanes?

[DM]

Frightened of them? I'm not a bit frightened of them, but i lived around them for 25 years, and i know EXACTLY what they are REALLY like! Forget National Geo!! Get out there and watch them for a while, even a slow learner will get it in time!

DM

[mistyriver]

I'd rather have a bear living under my house, than 2 wolves in my back woodlot!

DM

Personally, I'll take a Great Pyrenees living in my barn and have the wolves and bears in the woods and mountains giving my place a wide berth. Just like they are right now.

[nhlivefreeordie]

Frightened of them? I'm not a bit frightened of them, but i lived around them for 25 years, and i know EXACTLY what they are REALLY like! Forget National Geo!! Get out there and watch them for a while, even a slow learner will get it in time!

DM

Yep, even that moron Tim Tastewell found that out.
Anyone that defends wolves has never had to deal with them up close, it isn't as pretty and majestic as you think and entertain in your mind. Many of my Canadian and Alaskan trapper friends have told me all I need to know, and they have lived with them side by side, some for over 40 years, they despise them, cougars are a close second to outdoor people who have to deal with them.

[Junie]

I live in one of the areas where wolves have been reintroduced. Neighbors have called me and reported seeing them in my yard. My yard is a very bad environment for wolves. They could die of lead poisoning (If I see them)

[patience]

I think the most problems occur when the balance is altered. Over time, animals and humans find ways to coexist in a given situation. If animals are reintroduced where they have not been for a long time, neither animals, nor humans know how to cope.

I've been told that several species have been reintroduced in Indiana, including gray wolves, coyotes, badgers, beavers, and others, possibly including cougars. The beavers haven't been a problem that I know of, but the rest have. Bobcats were never truly eliminated here. They mostly mind their own business, stay away from people, and aren't a problem, until some pilgrim gets the stuffing scared out of him when one screams too close. :lol:

Indiana has been an agricultural state for a long time, with few predators of any size. Most of the city folks don't have a clue how to deal with these animals. Many of the rural people are just as clueless. There haven't been many incidents that made the news, but there have been confrontations, mostly where the animals end up dead. Right or wrong, farmers and stockmen here generally have zero tolerance for predators, and find ways to eradicate them. My bet is that the bigger predators will eventually find the limits of how close people will tolerate them, and the situation will stabilize. Until then, we will have some problems.

[nhlivefreeordie]

I live in one of the areas where wolves have been reintroduced. Neighbors have called me and reported seeing them in my yard. My yard is a very bad environment for wolves. They could die of lead poisoning (If I see them)

Bravo!!!....Bravo!!!!.......common sense lives!!!

[Junie]

You've hit on the problem of animals that have been recently introduced to areas. We have coyotes, bears, and mountain lions here (to name a few), but they know to stay in the wilder areas and not to go in people's yards. On my place they mostly stay around the pond, which isn't even visible from the house. But the 'new' animals, the wolves and elk, like to come to the yard (where I keep my children, pets, and chickens)

I suppose it isn't their fault, but that doesn't mean I have to put up with them. I was here first and I'm paying the taxes on the place.

[nhlivefreeordie]

I've been told that several species have been reintroduced in Indiana, including gray wolves, coyotes, badgers, beavers, and others, possibly including cougars. The beavers haven't been a problem that I know of,

No on the wolves, coyotes have been there long long time, before you and me, badgers possibly, although I can't really see them doing that, beavers have been steadily growing in population since their close call with extinction, they are managed now, and in fact very good for the ecosystem, IF their numbers are controlled through trapping.....and the added benefit is.......THEY TASTE AWESOME!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/dj88ryr/IMG_0814.jpg

[patience]

I lived in Indiana for about 40 years before I heard about, let alone saw a coyote. Then, one year in the late 1970's, we had a problem with them. Now they are everywhere. Lots of farmers bought a .270, .308, or .30-06, and it has been a war without ceasing since then. If you have a German Shepherd dog out here, you better make sure it stays home,and that all the neighbors know it is a DOG, not a coyote, or it will disappear.

Badgers? Yup, had one road-killed about 10 miles north of me about a week ago. Those things are BAD NEWS when you have small livestock.

[DaNgEr_KiTtY]

I wonder if she was on this remote road running while listening to her ipod. I think its always important to think about personal safety. Aside from woman being grabbed while out running by rapists & murders you still have to think about wild animals too. At least have mace or something. The world is a dangerous place & the food chain is a difficult one to break.

[Teg]

I lived in Indiana for about 40 years before I heard about, let alone saw a coyote. Then, one year in the late 1970's, we had a problem with them. Now they are everywhere. Lots of farmers bought a .270, .308, or .30-06, and it has been a war without ceasing since then. If you have a German Shepherd dog out here, you better make sure it stays home,and that all the neighbors know it is a DOG, not a coyote, or it will disappear.

Badgers? Yup, had one road-killed about 10 miles north of me about a week ago. Those things are BAD NEWS when you have small livestock.


Agreed on coyote problems, the thing is coyotes mature and breed at a much higher rate than wolves or other predators, so if you clear out an area of all the wolves and other predators you'll soon be overrun with more Coyotes than you can ever kill.

Controlling the population of predators is fine but wiping out animals, predators in particular can cause long term problems, as witnessed by the rampant spread of coyotes throughout the nation.

[Teg]

I wonder if she was on this remote road running while listening to her ipod. I think its always important to think about personal safety. Aside from woman being grabbed while out running by rapists & murders you still have to think about wild animals too. At least have mace or something. The world is a dangerous place & the food chain is a difficult one to break.


+1, we have too many folks wandering that are oblivious to everything around them.

[mistyriver]

I live in one of the areas where wolves have been reintroduced. Neighbors have called me and reported seeing them in my yard. My yard is a very bad environment for wolves. They could die of lead poisoning (If I see them)

You live in Kentucky and you have wolves in your yard?

[mistyriver]

Yep, even that moron Tim Tastewell found that out.
Anyone that defends wolves has never had to deal with them up close, it isn't as pretty and majestic as you think and entertain in your mind. Many of my Canadian and Alaskan trapper friends have told me all I need to know, and they have lived with them side by side, some for over 40 years, they despise them, cougars are a close second to outdoor people who have to deal with them.

Maybe it's their wives they're talking about and you missed the metaphor.
Like I said, I do live with wolves up close and they haven't caused any problems for me. And yeah...I do think they are pretty magnificent creatures.

[DM]

Wolves are natural born killers... They do NOT just kill for food, i have seen this myself, more than once.

Once they decimate the game in your area, they will head for easy pickins, and your dog is no match for 2 wolves, let alone 3 or 4... Yes, i've seen this too...

Wolves can take out any size dog, even coyotes will take out some fairly big dogs, it already happens fairly often...

Last year two adults with several kids were walking down a rual road to visit a neighbor, when a wolf ran out and tried to take a small kid... The adults grabbed an arm and with all the comotion, the wolf let go... Those folks were VERY lucky!

The old timers got it right! And once again, we have to re-learn our history!

DM

[DM]

You live in Kentucky and you have wolves in your yard?

I don't have an answer for your question, BUT... A few years ago, the DNR released a wolf in the U.P. of Mi. with a tracking colar on it. A year or so later they lost the wolf... A year later than that, a farmer in Mo. shot and killed a wolf that attacked his cow, guess what? Yup, it was the Mi. wolf, and it had traveled something like 432 miles from where it was released.

I read this story in Fur Fish & Game magazine...

DM

[nhlivefreeordie]

Maybe it's their wives they're talking about and you missed the metaphor.
Like I said, I do live with wolves up close and they haven't caused any problems for me. And yeah...I do think they are pretty magnificent creatures.

Didn't miss the metaphor, they know what they are talking about, Wolves were driven back for a reason. They may be magnificent creatures, that just need to be shot on sight, unless you can trap them in season, their pelts are worth about $250-$400.
I am glad they haven't caused you any problems, but you have to add YET to your observation. It will and does happen often.

[Junie]

You live in Kentucky and you have wolves in your yard?


Yep. They reintroduced wolves to Daniel Boone National Park and they've moved to all the neighboring farms. (I'm about 15 miles from the park) They were also trying to get a herd of bison started, but that wasn't working, so they moved them someplace else. Sure would hate to find a herd of bison in my garden! The occasional stray cow or deer is bad enough.

[Oblio13]

Everywhere in the world, wolf attacks effectively ceased with the introduction of firearms. They're intelligent animals that learn very quickly to avoid people wherever they are hunted, just like cougars and bears. It's difficult to catch a glimpse of them even in areas where they are common. Only when hunting is prohibited do problems recur.

If we use fear as an excuse to eradicate wolves, then why don't we use the same logic to exterminate animals that kill far more people, like horses and dogs? Deaths caused by wolves aren't even a blip on the radar compared to deaths caused by whitetail deer. Bats, jellyfish, dolphins, ostriches and chimpanzees have killed more Americans in the last decade than wolves have. Why don't we exterminate dolphins? According to the CDC, "about 20 people a year are killed by cows in the United States". Not bulls, cows.

If you spent your entire life in wolf country, you'd still be far more likely to be killed by falling on a pencil.

Used to spend a lot of time trekking in Africa, and had encounters with all kinds of critters that make wolves look like toy poodles. But that's the allure of Africa. Without it's animals, it's just Arizona. Same with Alaska and British Columbia - without the animals, it's just nice scenery. One of my favorite memories is camping solo in the Chugach range, looking up at the northern lights and listening to wolves howl. Wolves in the zoo just aren't the same animals.

I submit that those who want the outdoors sterilized and risk-free don't belong outdoors. They should stay on their sofas, with their far more dangerous tobacco and Twinkies.

[Oblio13]

Off topic, but I was Googling deaths by various animals for my previous response, and came across this morbidly fascinating piece:

"Mark Voegel, 30, was found dead in his Dortmund, Germany apartment. His body was draped in spider webs and more than 200 spiders, several snakes, thousands of termites, and a gecko were feasting on his corpse...
His black widow, Bettina, is believed to have administered the deadly bite...
A police spokesman said: “It was like a horror movie. His corpse was over the sofa. Giant webs draped him, spiders were all over him. They were coming out of his nose and his mouth. There was everything there one could imagine in the world of reptiles. Larger pieces of flesh torn off by the lizards were scooped up and taken back to the webs of tarantulas and other bird-eating spiders.”
The spiders and termites managed to escape when the heating elements exploded and opened the lids to their tanks..."

[mistyriver]

Didn't miss the metaphor, they know what they are talking about, Wolves were driven back for a reason. They may be magnificent creatures, that just need to be shot on sight, unless you can trap them in season, their pelts are worth about $250-$400.
I am glad they haven't caused you any problems, but you have to add YET to your observation. It will and does happen often.

I just love when people respond to an argument with, "it just hasn''t happened YET".
There a whole lot of people here to whom it hasn't happened YET...and most likely never will.

[Junie]

Off topic, but I was Googling deaths by various animals for my previous response, and came across this morbidly fascinating piece:

"Mark Voegel, 30, was found dead in his Dortmund, Germany apartment. His body was draped in spider webs and more than 200 spiders, several snakes, thousands of termites, and a gecko were feasting on his corpse...
His black widow, Bettina, is believed to have administered the deadly bite...
A police spokesman said: “It was like a horror movie. His corpse was over the sofa. Giant webs draped him, spiders were all over him. They were coming out of his nose and his mouth. There was everything there one could imagine in the world of reptiles. Larger pieces of flesh torn off by the lizards were scooped up and taken back to the webs of tarantulas and other bird-eating spiders.”
The spiders and termites managed to escape when the heating elements exploded and opened the lids to their tanks..."

You could have gone all day without posting that! Every night, before I go to sleep, I shine a flashlight all over my room, especially in the corners, and look for spider webs. If I find one, I try to find the spider and kill it, then I knock down the webs (so any wandering spider won't be able to use it).

Yeah, it's crazy, I know. We had an influx of Black Widows a couple of years ago, then I read that the average person eats 8 spiders in their sleep (in their lifetime), and I haven't been comfortable about spider webs since.

[nhlivefreeordie]

I just love when people respond to an argument with, "it just hasn''t happened YET".
There a whole lot of people here to whom it hasn't happened YET...and most likely never will.

That is no reason to wait till it happens. You wouldn't feel the same way if one of your children was killed by one......or would you?

[nhlivefreeordie]

I just love when people respond to an argument with, "it just hasn''t happened YET".
There a whole lot of people here to whom it hasn't happened YET...and most likely never will.

Because it hasn't happened to you, DOESN't mean it doesn't happen it does, and I find it peculiar that people that have to make their living around them have a completely different view of them than the uninformed romanticist.

[mistyriver]

Because it hasn't happened to you, DOESN't mean it doesn't happen it does, and I find it peculiar that people that have to make their living around them have a completely different view of them than the uninformed romanticist.

Hello? If you'd read my posts you would see thatg we raise sheep around them which most certainly contributes to making a living. Not to mention that we own a fencing company so we are always out in areas with wolves. Where are you getting "uninformed romanticist" from my posts?
It is kind of ironic coming from someone from New Hampshire, of course. What big predators are taking down your stock?

[mistyriver]

That is no reason to wait till it happens. You wouldn't feel the same way if one of your children was killed by one......or would you?

How are we waiting? We adapted to our environment rather than assuming the predators would adapt to us. We fence, shelter and have Great Pyrnees protecting our animals. We take RESPONSIBILITY for our animals.

[Oblio13]

If we preemptively exterminated everything that might hurt a chicken, what would be left?

[nhlivefreeordie]

Hello? If you'd read my posts you would see thatg we raise sheep around them which most certainly contributes to making a living. Not to mention that we own a fencing company so we are always out in areas with wolves. Where are you getting "uninformed romanticist" from my posts?
It is kind of ironic coming from someone from New Hampshire, of course. What big predators are taking down your stock?

I would ask you the same question. You raise sheep and there may, or may not be wolves around at any one time. Wolves travel, they have LARGE home ranges, you ARE NOT in an area where there are more wolves than people, and people that are good friends of mine, trappers that trap them for a living tell me other wise. They are NOT something to be revered, they kill for sport, and they care not what that is.
The uninformed romanticist comes from the attitude you have about wolves. You have displayed that in your posts, and I am not saying that you can't think like you want. But again, people that live among them tell a totally different tale, and since they are living it every day, I tend to take them as the final word on it. Perhaps instead of uninformed romanticist, I should have said " The National Geographic generation.

[nhlivefreeordie]

If we preemptively exterminated everything that might hurt a chicken, what would be left?

No need to take the discussion to the extreme, nobody said anything about preemptively killing anything dangerous. From my experience, people that live among Cougars and Wolves on a daily basis continually say, that the less of them around, the better it is for humans. I would tend to agree, these two animals can and have ambushed people and consumed them, that marks them for shoot on sight to people who have to live with them. The Nat Geo folks try to claim something else, but they are agenda driven, and as such their so called research is skewed....(global warming science in another degree). I also carry snake rounds in my pistol, especially during spring Morel season, anything poisonous gets a dose and becomes part of the earth. I don't hate snakes, just poisonous ones.

[Oblio13]

More Google fun:

Odds of being divorced: About one in 2.

Odds of dying of heart disease: About one in 4.

Odds of dying of cancer: About one in 7.

Odds of being killed in a car accident: About one in 84.

Odds of fatally slipping in the shower: About one in 2,232.

Odds of dying of a drug overdose: About one in 8,000

Odds of dating a supermodel: About one in 88,000.

Odds of dying in an earthquake: About one in 132,000.

Odds of being killed by a terrorist: About one in 135,000.

Odds of being killed by a dog attack: About one in 148,000.

Odds of being killed by lightning: About one in 2,320,000.

Odds of being executed by the government: About one in 3,400,000.

Odds of dying in a collapsing sand hole: About one in 4,000,000.

Odds that you are an astronaut: About one in 13,200,000.

Odds of getting canonized: About one in 20,000,000.

Odds of winning Powerball: About one in 27,000,000.

Odds of dying because your pajamas catch on fire: About one in 30,600,000.

Odds of being killed by a falling coconut: About one in 250,000,000.

Odds of being killed by a wolf: About one in 264,000,000.

[Junie]

The odds of being attacked by a wolf are roughly the same as being struck by lightning (1 in 750,000) and how many times have you been warned not to go out during electrical storms?

[yotetrapper]

Wolves are pretty vicious critters. I suppose they're okay in remote areas like northwest canada, and interior alaska, but I dont believe they should be in the lower 48. Here's a pretty graphic slideshow of what wolves in the US do to elk herds....

http://www.saveelk.com/wolf_002.htm

[Rimfire_Red]

I grew up in SE MN. About 25 years ago my brother was out bowhunting on a couple hundred acres of woods surrounded by farm land when he was treed by a pack of huskies or malamutes. They were a very good looking, well kept group dogs about a half dozen or so and they meant business. (Looked like someones sled team - on tour.)He ended up shooting one with an arrow to get out of there. The dog ran off a little ways and went down. The rest of the pack ripped it to shreds. He got out of the tree and made it to the car by about dark and got away. Never heard anything on the news, but one has to remember that Wolves, coyotes, cougars, ferrel dogs AND badgers can all take you so fast you hardly knew what hit...... We have all the above plus rattlesnakes. A little side arm back up is always a good idea.....

[nhlivefreeordie]

The best use of a wolf in my opinion....

A friend of mine from Quebec.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/dj88ryr/Trapping/camionarobertetdenyse-lyse096.jpg

Awesome pelts.

[patience]

The odds of me being an astronaut are zero, because I don't want to be and besides, the space program is dying on the vine.

Such odds are calculated based upon no. of astronauts vs no. in the population--very misleading. We change our odds by our behavior constantly. The odds of me having a warm supper tonight are close to 100%, since I have food in the fridge, means to cook it, and I can cook. Much different than if I were sitting in a lifeboat in the middle of the ocean with nothing--odds of having a warm supper there are close to zero. Since I don't take ocean voyages, and assured that I have food, etc., my odds are better because I made them so.

Specious argument to quote odds without the background.

I don't worry much about wolves, presently. But then, I didn't worry much about being struck by lightning, either, until it happened to me. Not a direct hit (or I'd be dead), but an induced hit from hitting the tree in front of the house. I was in the basement leaning on a metal jackpost. Knocked me flat. So, yeah, I take precautions against that sort of thing, and improve my odds. Same deal with wolves, or coyotes. I do things to improve my survivability. YMMV.

[DM]

Everywhere in the world, wolf attacks effectively ceased with the introduction of firearms. They're intelligent animals that learn very quickly to avoid people wherever they are hunted, just like cougars and bears. It's difficult to catch a glimpse of them even in areas where they are common. Only when hunting is prohibited do problems recur.


I found that pretty humerous, considering it has been FAR from the truth in my experence.

I've seen them many times, even around my house, and watched them from a distance pull down a cow moose, rip her belly open, pull out the upborn calf, and eat part of it, LRAVING her to bleed to death while they ran off for another kill...

I saw them pull down caribou after caribou, killing them, and then run off to kill another UNTIL i started loping bullets on them from a LONG ways away.... They kill MUCH more than they can eat, they kill for sport...

SO, don't try an BS me with your lack of experence concerning wolves, i've been out there and seen what they are REALLY like.

DM

[thundercloud]

[QUOTE=Oblio13;204444]More Google fun:


Odds of being killed by lightning: About one in 2,320,000.


But if one goes outside in a thunderstorm waving a long copper rod over their head those odds suddenly do not apply.

[Oblio13]

... odds suddenly do not apply.

Of course odds can be influenced. And speaking of that, I bet we'll find out that these wolves in question were habituated by feeding, either intentionally or inadvertently.

If the spread of rabies is controlled, if occasional hunting is allowed, if people don't habituate wolves, and if they don't do stupid things like crawl into a den to look at pups (yes, it's been done), then the risk of a wolf attack is approximately zero.

It's far more dangerous to ride in a car than it is to hike in wolf country.

[Oblio13]

I found that pretty humerous, considering it has been FAR from the truth in my experence....

Since there's been a grand total of one fatal wolf attack in the US in your lifetime, how much experience can you have? I've seen caribou kills, too. Big deal. News flash: Wolves eat meat, and nature is cruel.

Let's keep things in perspective. In that same period, there have been scores of fatal bear attacks, and thousands of people killed when they hit deer with their cars.

If we decided to exterminate wolves for our safety, I bet more people would be killed in aircraft and vehicle accidents doing it than ever would have been killed by wolves.

.... They kill MUCH more than they can eat, they kill for sport...DM

It's not for sport, it's an adaptive survival strategy that has evolved in many northern predators. Weasels and foxes do the same thing. Maybe take an adult education wildlife biology course and you'll understand why. And it feeds a lot of things below them in the food chain as well. (I have a thread on this site with pics from my "carcass cam" showing some of the things that visit a dead deer.)

.... SO, don't try an BS me with your lack of experence concerning wolves, i've been out there and seen what they are REALLY like....DM

You have no idea what my experience is, and I don't pretend to know what yours is. (I'd be willing to bet my house that you're not a wildlife biologist, though.)

But we both know exactly what the numbers are. (I should say "number", singular.) ;)

People have what I call the "Stupid News Gene". It causes them to panic over events that are extremely unlikely. (The DC snipers are a good example. They killed a total of ten people, panicked the entire capital region and changed the behavior of millions. In the same time period, thousands of those same people died from smoking, but how many of them quit?)

We're all gonna die of something. It's probably not gonna be wolf attacks.

[Oblio13]

More Google fun:


Tobacco (435,000 deaths, 18.1 percent of total U.S. deaths)

Poor diet and physical inactivity (400,000 deaths, 16.6 percent)

Alcohol consumption (85,000 deaths, 3.5 percent)

Microbial agents (75,000)

Toxic agents (55,000)

Motor vehicle crashes (43,000)

Incidents involving firearms (29,000)

Sexual behaviors (20,000)

Illicit use of drugs (17,000)

Wolf attacks (<1)


Interesting to note that our own modifiable behaviors contribute to most of our deaths.

If you want to live long enough for the wolves to get you, don't be a fat smoking drunk, drive defensively, avoid murderers and poisons, and be careful with the illegal drugs and kinky sex. :eek:

[DM]

There's been one fatal wolf attack in the US in your lifetime. How much experience can you have?

Just trying to put things in perspective. In that same period, there have been scores of fatal bear attacks, and thousands of people killed when they hit deer with their cars.



It's not for sport, it's an adaptive survival strategy that has evolved in many northern predators. Weasels and foxes do the same thing. And it feeds a lot of things below them in the food chain as well. (I have a thread on this site with pics from my "carcass cam" showing some of the things that visit a dead deer.)



You have no idea what my experience is, and I don't pretend to know what yours is. (I'd be willing to bet my house that you're not a wolf biologist, though. ;)

But we both know exactly what the numbers are. (I should say "number", singular.)

People have what I call the "Stupid News gene", that causes them to panic over events that are extremely unlikely.

We're all gonna die of something. It's probably not gonna be wolf attacks.

Do you really think all wolf reports were reported?? I think NOT, as i knew an old guy who was attacked and it wasn't reported, of course, your saying that "IF" he didn't die, then it don't count! lol lol

BTW, in this case, the wolf died and that wasn't reported either...

With re-introduction of wolves, problems are now happening more than ever, and they will continue to rise, until we re-learn our past AGAIN! Saddly, folks have to die in numbers that can be googled, or it doesn't matter!

As for my "experence", well, i'm NOT the one that has to google all of my answers. I'm relateing here what "i" have seen myself, from actually living with them for many years, and you??? You are googleing answers... hhmmmm...

No, i'm not a biloigist, but those bioligist use to come talk to me about this stuff. Why? Because all they are, are "gathers of information" and they knew i had the info. Apparently THEY thought i knew something about wolves!

When in a game rich area, wolves kill all and everything they can... They don't begin to eat all they kill... You obviously haven't spent much time around them, because if you had, you also would have some actual "personal info" on this subject....

When i started this thread, i used the word "ignorant". To me, that word ment, folks that were lacking in knowledge on the subject of wolves... You have proven my point...

To Mysty... At least you base your answers on your experence... Good for you.... The problem is, you are only seeing "stage one" of wolves. They WILL in time decimate the game in your area, and if you are lucky, they will move on... If you are not lucky, they will head for what ever is the easiest to kill, and your dog and other animals will be the easiest... If you don't believe that, just look at what they are doing in the other parts of the west... It's already happening in many area's... Hopefully you will live out your life with wolves in stage one, cause you don't want to be around when that ends!

As a side note to all of this, if you follow this issue on other forums, the word is no longer to use SSS. These days, i'm reading the new tatic is to "gut shoot" the wolf, and let it run off to die. The folks that are doing this, say it lessens the chances of getting caught.

Personally, i've always dropped them on the spot and left them lie... I don't like to see any animal suffer, and i'm far enough ahead to not worry too much about getting caught...

Lastly: I believe 13 wolves were found dead in Mi. in 2009, mostly last fall. I guess "someone" is seeing the "elusive" wolf... And they are doing something about it! I wonder how many more are shot that aren't found?

OK mr. google, you get the last word... I refuse to answer anymore post with someone who has NO personal experence on this subject, and has to resort to regurgitating info from google...

DM

[nhlivefreeordie]

I might also add, that Wildlife Biologist ARE NOT the last word on this. I have dealt with wildlife biologists before, most of them are pretty book smart, and fall flat when actually out in the wild where the animals don't read the books.
There has been numerous laws and restrictions placed on many people due to the false observation of a Wildlife Biologist.
Like I said before, National Geographic and Discovery channel generation, a whole lot of tv taught experts out there who don't have a clue of real life.
It might also be pertinent to bring up that wolf introductions are being used by anti sustainable use groups ( friends of animals, HSUS, ) to eliminate hunting and trapping in these areas due to the fact that a wolf MAY be caught, they are doing the same thing through the Lynx and the ESA.
Wolves should be eliminated from everywhere except maybe Alaska and and the Canadian Wilds.

[Oblio13]

Do you really think all wolf reports were reported??

Are "all reports reported"? :D Never mind, I know what you mean.

Yes, I think that fatalities caused by wolves in America are such sensational news items that they are all reported. Although even if only half of them are reported, that would only bring the grand total up to 2 per century.

I think NOT, as i knew an old guy who was attacked and it wasn't reported, of course, your saying that "IF" he didn't die, then it don't count! lol lol

Well, when you're right, you're right: If he didn't die, then it doesn't count as a fatality.

... i'm not a biloigist, but those bioligist use to come talk to me about this stuff... DM

Seems like someone whose wise counsel was being sought by biologists would be able to spell "biologist". ;)

[Oblio13]

I might also add, that Wildlife Biologist ARE NOT the last word on this. I have dealt with wildlife biologists before, most of them are pretty book smart, and fall flat when actually out in the wild where the animals don't read the books...

My experience has been just the opposite. Our state biologists give lectures on everything from bears to bees, and I enjoy attending them. I want scientists to manage our wildlife, not public opinion. We have a movement going on right now here in NH to have animal rights representation on our Fish and Game commission, and it's a frightening prospect.

[Oblio13]

From our game department's website:

"... When New England was first settled in the colonial days, wolves were common here. Despised for their habit of killing sheep, they were eradicated over the years. The last N.H. wolf bounty was paid for two killed in 1895.

New England has been hearing more about wolves these days. In 1993, a wolf was killed in northern Maine, and other sightings have since occurred there. A population of wolves lives in Quebec, just 200 miles north of New Hampshire. In fact, a female wolf was killed in Canada two years ago within 20 miles of the New Hampshire border. In the fall of 2003, a wolf was killed in New York State that had the genetic profile of a Great Lakes gray wolf; officials are still attempting to confirm whether the animal was wild or captive-reared.

New Hampshire, with land that is 90 percent wooded and thriving populations of moose, deer and beaver -- prime wolf foods -- has many of the right habitat ingredients to support a wolf population. Within the next few decades, we may see wolves return to New Hampshire on their own ..."

Hope I'm around for such a thing. It won't curtail my hiking, canoeing, camping and hunting, it'll increase it in the hope of catching a glimpse or hearing them at night. If it keeps other people out of the woods, that's even better.

[nhlivefreeordie]

My experience has been just the opposite. Our state biologists give lectures on everything from bears to bees, and I enjoy attending them. I want scientists to manage our wildlife, not public opinion. We have a movement going on right now here in NH to have animal rights representation on our Fish and Game commission, and it's a frightening prospect.

Brad,
I have dealt personally with the state wildlife biologist up there. They are very educated as far as book smarts go, they do NOT have much practical knowledge and base their outlooks on theory.
Case in point. Many years ago a bunch of us trappers got together and started having weekend trapping Rendezvous mostly to teach youngsters the art of trapping, with real hands on demonstrations. The guy that started it had connections and procured the Town Hall as a headquarters for the event.
Us old guys got together usually a day or two before the event, ran a route, and designated sites for traps etc. The kids started arriving Friday afternoon, and everyone piled into the town hall for a game dinner, and then Q&A in preparation for the next day. The town hall was set up as a shelter for emergencies, and we all bunked there. The next days was full instruction, trap setting, out in the marshes. Everyone returned to town hall for a game lunch then back out till dark. Every participant got to set their own traps, and also got to keep anything they harvested. After harvest on Sunday there was a pelt preparation class, and everyone went home around 3:00.
After the first couple years, a professor at UNH got wind of it, and asked if he could send a couple of his students, that were wildlife bio majors. They sent 6 students up, 5 women and one guy. They LOVED the experience, and said they learned more in one weekend on the Rendezvous, than some of them learned in a year at the University. Now 20 or so students attend each year, and a lot of them come every year they are at college. Our mission, and it succeeded, was making friends out of some of the future law makers for the state.
My point is, that without practical, hands on experience, those book learned wildlife majors coming out of the universities are anti consumptive use, and have a VERY narrow view on wildlife. I trust people that live the life and do it day in and day out over some self important book learned biologist.
The title doesn't make their words have any more weight.
One last thing, those ignorant fisheries biologist in NH are responsible for introducing Landlocked Salmon to NH lakes totally upsetting the prey/predator relationship, and completely ruining several industries in favor of elitist outdoorsman.
I know all about wildlife biologist, and most of them aren't worth the powder to blow them to hell.

[Oblio13]

I completely agree that college students still have a lot of learning to do.

On the bright side of our fish and game folks, though, look at the success stories the reintroduction of turkeys, deer, moose and fisher have been here. They were all locally extinct not that long ago, and now they're everywhere. And we even have confirmed cougars now.

[nhlivefreeordie]

I completely agree that college students still have a lot of learning to do.

On the bright side of our fish and game folks, though, look at the success stories the reintroduction of turkeys, deer, moose and fisher have been here. They were all locally extinct not that long ago, and now they're everywhere. And we even have confirmed cougars now.

A little correction, Fishers have ALWAYS been there, I used to trap them by the boatload in the 70s thru 2000. NH Fishers have been live trapped and sent to other states reintroducing them, PA happens to be one of the recipients, and although they are expanding, it is painfully slow. Fisher have a very low reproductive rate, and that comes from years trapping them, not a book or wildlife biologist.
Turkeys moose and deer have always been there as well, although not always in the numbers now present, management has something to do with that.
I know about Mountain Lions, I saw one in '84 on route 118 between Warren and Campton, one of those so-called experts at F&G told me I saw a bobcat....:eek:...perhaps some folks are ignorant enough to be convinced of that, but I know what I saw, it was 10' in front of my truck.
Wolves and Mountain Lions hunt people, the value of having them in close proximity to man, so that you hear them, doesn't pass muster.
Bears are dangerous yes, but the cases of a bear stalking humans for prey are non existent, bear encounters happen by chance, wolves and cougars hunt people, they should not be encouraged any where. I will continue to eliminate any I happen across in the wild, and DM makes a good point, leave them lay, and get out of the area.
If you want to hear wolves, why not go where they are, the rest of us don't have to put up with them that way.

[Oblio13]

A little correction, Fishers have ALWAYS been there, I used to trap them by the boatload in the 70s thru 2000.

According to Fish and Game's website again, they were extirpated by the civil war and came back beginning in the 1930's.

... Turkeys moose and deer have always been there as well, although not always in the numbers now present, management has something to do with that.

Same source also says beaver, moose and turkeys were "essentially gone" by the mid-1800's, bears hit a low of about 500, and it was rare to see a deer. Now all of the above are common. I know not everyone likes that, but I sure do.

If you want to hear wolves, why not go where they are,

I do. This year I'll be hunting in Wyoming, next year I've already booked a trip to Idaho, and I'm constantly plotting to retire somehow in Two Rivers, Alaska.

the rest of us don't have to put up with them that way.

I would ask the converse question. Wildlife is what makes the wild "wild". Why would anyone who doesn't like it choose to live in a state that's 90% forested?

[nhlivefreeordie]

According to Fish and Game's website again, they were extirpated by the civil war and came back beginning in the 1930's.

There are many things on F&Gs website that are not exactly factual, but may have been when some writer thought so back in the day. Besides, I meant always there in my lifetime. There weren't many white tail on the continent in 1900, lots of variables as to why.



Same source also says beaver, moose and turkeys were "essentially gone" by the mid-1800's, bears hit a low of about 500, and it was rare to see a deer. Now all of the above are common. I know not everyone likes that, but I sure do.

Same deal, again, the ability to track populations wasn't much more than word of mouth back in the mid 1800s. There may not have been large populations, I would contend that there were, lots of Expert writings about things being extinct that isn't really so.



I do. This year I'll be hunting in Wyoming, next year I've already booked a trip to Idaho, and I'm constantly plotting to retire somehow in Two Rivers, Alaska.

I wish you the best, I don't want Wolves or Mountain Lions anywhere they haven't been for the last 50 years.



I would ask the converse question. Wildlife is what makes the wild "wild". Why would anyone who doesn't like it choose to live in a state that's 90% forested?

I enjoy the wild just fine, and have no greater pleasure if there are wolves and mountain lions present, in fact, I like it less. I have spent time in Alaska and the Canadian Wilds, they don't scare me, I don't like them, or need them to enjoy the outdoors. Those two predators we are better off without in my opinion, and the opinion of those who live among them.

[AlchemyAcres]

That huffin', puffin' and blow your house down stuff is what really scares me!!!!!!! :eek:

~Martin

[WileyCoyote]

I personally think it is wonderful that they are reintroducing all of the wildlife; cougars, wolves, etc. They should introduce grizzly bears and even tigers and lions wherever possible. :dirol:

Then all of the animal huggers can go try to cuddle them and get eaten, and there won't be any more folks raising a ruckus about us shooting all de poor widdle fuzzy animals.

Did you hear that, just recently, a beaver attacked a full grown man who was cleaning out a ditch, and if his work partner hadn't rescued him and beaten back the beaver it would have killed the victim? Or about the woman in Salmon ID who shot a 118 lb wolf - from a pack that had been terrorizing the local neighborhood for weeks?

Wild. Animals. Are. Dangerous.

Predators are predators, be they human, furred, feathered, finned, or scaled; no matter how much or how pathetically and desperately people want to pretend that they are not. And if the coyotes that run my back hills get close enough to my FRONT hills and/or my critters, or any sort of predator decides that my property is a free buffet, they are history. I have invested too much time, money, and effort to getting what I want, to feed the desires of other predators. I am the supreme predator on my property, and they will know it and avoid me and mine - or die. You want to feed 'em, good - less chance of them coming over here, at least until they are finished with you. And then they'll be off guard, because they will think I am a pushover, too. ;) No, I ain't scared - I travel all over my property, day and night, and love it. But - I will defend it, and the critters I have put here for me, from them.

[nhlivefreeordie]

Predators are predators, be they human, furred, feathered, finned, or scaled; no matter how much or how pathetically and desperately people want to pretend that they are not. And if the coyotes that run my back hills get close enough to my FRONT hills and/or my critters, or any sort of predator decides that my property is a free buffet, they are history. I have invested too much time, money, and effort to getting what I want, to feed the desires of other predators. I am the supreme predator on my property, and they will know it and avoid me and mine - or die. You want to feed 'em, good - less chance of them coming over here, at least until they are finished with you. And then they'll be off guard, because they will think I am a pushover, too. ;) No, I ain't scared - I travel all over my property, day and night, and love it. But - I will defend it, and the critters I have put here for me, from them.

Well stated, and oh so right on the money. Book Naturalists, and the Discovery Channel generation just don't get it, they have been lied to.

[mistyriver]

. I will continue to eliminate any I happen across in the wild, and DM makes a good point, leave them lay, and get out of the area.
If you want to hear wolves, why not go where they are, the rest of us don't have to put up with them that way.

You mean you are knowingly and willfully breaking the law?

[sherry]

Wolves are all over Canada, not just the west. The farm we grew up on had every kind of livestock and no problems with wolves. My neighbor has had cattle in part of the forest here for at least 50 years and no problem with wolves. I love them, the singing, their gorgeous beauty. My dog was a wolf malamute and just a sweetie. Wolves will only eat beef if totally starving as beef makes them sick. We need wolves to keep the mice and gophers down. A good book is NEVER CRY WOLF; by Farley Mowat if you want to understand more about wolves. I had 3 wolves singing by the yard 3 nights ago, and 2 boreal owls and some coyotes...was a magical evening in my books. May the ugly sounds of snowmobiles and atvs be one day totally replaced by the healing sounds of nature again.

[nhlivefreeordie]

You mean you are knowingly and willfully breaking the law?

oops, thought it was a huge coyote....:D

Since we don't have any wolves here, and hopefully never will, how could I be breaking the law?

I see you really care about humans THAT ARE having problems where they have been re-introduced, better them to face the hardship rather than the mangy wolves....

Sorry, just so we are clear, I do NOT believe animals have rights, I believe humans are at the top of the food chain and as such come first. I also believe they should be managed just like farm crops. We do NOT have to share space with predators that see us as food. Animals and humans living together in perfect harmony is a myth created by Discovery, National Geographic, Walt Disney, and Coca Cola. Real life doesn't bear this theory out, not matter how hard you want it to be so.
After many years involved in animal issues, anyone that comes off with that type of touchy feeley opinion on wild animals is easily identified as unknowing, and ignorant and their thoughts guided by emotion instead of reality.
You have every right to feel that way, but real life doesn't back up your premise.
And still whenever I am where they are, I will eliminate them at every possible chance, as I do with coyotes, rattlesnakes and copperheads here. There is plenty in the wild to deal with without them.

[nhlivefreeordie]

Wolves will only eat beef if totally starving as beef makes them sick.
How about Moose, deer, sheep, goats, and fido? Are you sure they get sick from eating beef, or is that something you heard? Because I can show stomach content surveys that prove this wrong. Wolves are omnivores, they eat carrion if they find it.


We need wolves to keep the mice and gophers down.
That is a thinly veiled excuse, the facts are that coyotes are much much better at rodent control. Wolves only turn to rodents in extreme cases when larger game is un-available, and the wolves ability to move is restricted. Rodents make up less than 10% of their diet.

May the ugly sounds of snowmobiles and atvs be one day totally replaced by the healing sounds of nature again.

Many people find the sounds of whining engines music to their ears, and love to be able to access the wild places that were inaccessible before, so their wants are less important than yours? Their music less important than your " healing sounds of nature":rolleyes:

[Oblio13]

Why are you willing to give up wolves because they kill one of us per century, but not cars that kill 38,000 per year?

Average number of deaths per year in the US:

Bee/Wasp 53
Dogs 31
Spider 6.5
Rattlesnake 5.5
Mountain lion 1
Shark 1
Alligator 0.3
Bear 0.5
Scorpion 0.5
Centipede 0.5
Elephant 0.25
Wolf 0.01
Horse 20


So if we killed every single venomous insect and reptile in the country, every elephant in every zoo, all dogs and horses, every alligator, shark, wolf, cougar and bear, it would save about 120 lives per year.

We could equal that if everyone just stopped driving for one day.

You can't legitimately call me a "bunny hugger". I've shot antelope, deer, caribou, moose, bear, and African game up to and including an elephant. But I hate seeing farms sold to developers, or strip malls going up where I used to roam. It bothers me when excitable people kill every snake they see. I like having a little spice of danger in wild places, and I'm glad that it keeps other people home. Places with more animals than people make me happy. It's a thrill to see a bear or moose in our yard, and the loss of an occasional chicken or whatever is a small price to pay for that.

Eliminating wild animals from the wild because they might hurt you seems to me like draining the water from swimming pools because you might drown.

[MooseToo]

gotta do sumthin bout them rogue elephants -

but i see orcas didn't even make the list -

[Junie]

The problem with the list is that those are deaths, not attacks. How many people are attacked by wolves but survive?

[nhlivefreeordie]

Why are you willing to give up wolves because they kill one of us per century, but not cars that kill 38,000 per year?

One risk is by choice, like I said, I can still enjoy the wild without wolves and mountain lions in it.

Try as you might, you won't be able to rationalize it.

I like having a little spice of danger in wild places, and I'm glad that it keeps other people home.

And what of those that would like to enjoy the wild without the worry of an apex predator involved? You view seems rather selfish and elitist.


Places with more animals than people make me happy. It's a thrill to see a bear or moose in our yard, and the loss of an occasional chicken or whatever is a small price to pay for that.

So, I guess you get to decide what price everyone has to pay and consider everyone should be ok paying it.......sounds like Washington............or Europe. I am sure those that want to enjoy their yard and let their kids enjoy their yard should also be thrilled if a bear shows up.....

Eliminating wild animals from the wild because they might hurt you seems to me like draining the water from swimming pools because you might drown.

Wolves and Mountain Lions used to be almost non existent in the lower 48 50-60 years ago. So that whole generation somehow enjoyed their outdoor experiences less? They were just yearning for an encounter with a wolf or a Mountain Lion?
There is a reason they were removed to begin with, and that decision was made by people who had to live among them, it was born of real life experience. Today, we have a new generation of armchair naturalists that have been programmed by Discovery, NatGeo, and the HSUS and Peta crowd.
I once again say, that people that live with them every day, in close proximity, say otherwise.

[mistyriver]

And what of those that would like to enjoy the wild without the worry of an apex predator involved? You view seems rather selfish and elitist.


So, I guess you get to decide what price everyone has to pay and consider everyone should be ok paying it.......sounds like Washington............or Europe. I am sure those that want to enjoy their yard and let their kids enjoy their yard should also be thrilled if a bear shows up.....


Wolves and Mountain Lions used to be almost non existent in the lower 48 50-60 years ago. So that whole generation somehow enjoyed their outdoor experiences less? They were just yearning for an encounter with a wolf or a Mountain Lion?
There is a reason they were removed to begin with, and that decision was made by people who had to live among them, it was born of real life experience. Today, we have a new generation of armchair naturalists that have been programmed by Discovery, NatGeo, and the HSUS and Peta crowd.
I once again say, that people that live with them every day, in close proximity, say otherwise.

Maybe they should stay home or go to places without predators if they're too wussy to enjoy the wilderness unless it's been Walt Disnified for them.


I have kids and I've had grizzlies in my "yard" till we got our Great Pyrenees. Still have the kids and yeah...it was pretty thrilling.

You seem to have a real problem with Nat Geo and Discovery. I have a real problem with someone who lives in a state without wolves explaining to me, a small rancher in the northern rockies, in wolf country...how I've been programmed. We hunt, we fish, we eat our own ranch's meat. I've never been described as a tree hugger or environmentalist. I'm a conservative and I like to conserve.
Apex predators have an important place in the wild and in the food chain and I can think for myself without the agenda-driven hunting and ranching lobby doing it for me. Clearly, you can't, so do everyone else a favor and stay in nice, safe Pennsylvania where you can safely make uninformed declarations about other people's real life experiences without the big, bad wolf huffing and puffing and blowing your house down.

[nhlivefreeordie]

Maybe they should stay home or go to places without predators if they're too wussy to enjoy the wilderness unless it's been Walt Disnified for them.


I have kids and I've had grizzlies in my "yard" till we got our Great Pyrenees. Still have the kids and yeah...it was pretty thrilling.

You seem to have a real problem with Nat Geo and Discovery. I have a real problem with someone who lives in a state without wolves explaining to me, a small rancher in the northern rockies, in wolf country...how I've been programmed. We hunt, we fish, we eat our own ranch's meat. I've never been described as a tree hugger or environmentalist. I'm a conservative and I like to conserve.
Apex predators have an important place in the wild and in the food chain and I can think for myself without the agenda-driven hunting and ranching lobby doing it for me. Clearly, you can't, so do everyone else a favor and stay in nice, safe Pennsylvania where you can safely make uninformed declarations about other people's real life experiences without the big, bad wolf huffing and puffing and blowing your house down.

First off, don't ever think that you can go any where and tell others what to think or how to live. I reside in PA, I have been all over the US and Canada and Alaska. Don't ever think because you reside in a certain place that you have the right or authority to tell others to stay anywhere. You obviously consider yourself more important than you should.
People that I am friends with that live deep in the bush most of the year among the wolves are much more authoritative than someone on a ranch in Idaho on a fringe area with small wolf populations, you like em, great, live with them, I on the other hand will eliminate every one I come across, you have no clue as to if that would be an illegal act or a legal one, as you have no idea where and when. You seem to be of the mind that your rights or desires are more important than others, sad to say, all you really have dominion over is your own property, outside that, your opinion is just like anyone else's, .....worthless.
And yes, I do have a problem with agenda driven programing that tells lies and misinformation to appeal to peoples emotions rather than their brains. Apparently, you eat that up, again, uninformed romanticist whose opinion is emotion based rather than fact based.
I really couldn't care less what you do on your land, you want to feed your livestock or possibly a kid to the wolves, it is nothing to me, but how I chose to live and do things is absolutely none of your business.
We are unlikely to change each others minds, but every time some misinformation is fed to the interested, I am going to refute it, to my knowledge, there is no PC ruling here yet.

[Anon001]

For what it's worth and personally speaking....

According to Wikipedia, in North America, cattle are the number one livestock killed by wolves.

If someone runs cattle in the wilderness where there is a wolf population, he will lose cattle from time to time. If he claims otherwise, he is lying. One reason we don't hear of it happening more is because the wolf numbers are much lower than they used to be before they were hunted and destroyed.

Paul

[momma_to_seven_chi]

The best use of a wolf in my opinion.

Awesome pelts.

They are beautiful. I would love to have a bed coverlet made from the fur. I have heard that coyote fur will also make a beautiful coat, but have never seen one (coat). They just don't seem as beautiful as the wolves. It's too bad the populations are dwindling because they would be a great asset if used should their numbers be sufficient.

[nhlivefreeordie]

There are enough of them, there is a season on them in Canada and Alaska.

Most bed covers made with real fur are both practical and beautiful, as well as durable and with minimal care will last the lifetime of the user.
Here is one that is made from Beaver and Coyote pelts.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/dj88ryr/BlanketsNaturalBeaverCoyote.jpg

[Oblio13]

Today a tree blew down near here and killed somebody.

This is not uncommon. There have been many problems in places where trees have been either reintroduced or allowed to thrive. And how many tree accidents are unreported?

Maybe some of you haven't lived around trees. I have. I know EXACTLY what they are REALLY like. Many of my Canadian and Alaskan friends have lived side by side with them for years, and they despise them. So I don't want to hear your ignorant BS opinions. Forget National Geographic. When the wind blows hard, they aren't called "widow makers" for nothing. TREES. ARE. DANGEROUS.

Just because a tree hasn't fallen on you YET doesn't mean they aren't deadly. And they attract dangerous beavers.

If a tree ever sprouts in my yard, it's going down. I don't care what the law is. I'm not going to risk my pets or my children because some uniformed romanticist with a college degree thinks trees have a place in the ecosystem.

If you're one of those tree-huggers who think people can't enjoy experiences in the woods without trees, tell that to the folks who live on the great plains or in the desert.

[nhlivefreeordie]

Today a tree blew down near here and killed somebody.

This is not uncommon. There have been many problems in places where trees have been either reintroduced or allowed to thrive. And how many tree accidents are unreported?

Maybe some of you haven't lived around trees. I have. I know EXACTLY what they are REALLY like. Many of my Canadian and Alaskan friends have lived side by side with them for years, and they despise them. So I don't want to hear your ignorant BS opinions. Forget National Geographic. When the wind blows hard, they aren't called "widow makers" for nothing. TREES. ARE. DANGEROUS.

Just because a tree hasn't fallen on you YET doesn't mean they aren't deadly. And they attract dangerous beavers.

If a tree ever sprouts in my yard, it's going down. I don't care what the law is. I'm not going to risk my pets or my children because some uniformed romanticist with a college degree thinks trees have a place in the ecosystem.

If you're one of those tree-huggers who think people can't enjoy experiences in the woods without trees, tell that to the folks who live on the great plains or in the desert.

I was just thinking about how different the two sides of the aisle are.

When one sides arguments do not hold up to scrutiny, or has been dis-proven by people actually living it, the wolf lovers make jokes. One side says do what you want on your own land, the other says you have to do it my way, you have to believe the way I do, even though I have absolutely no real life experience, but I do watch Discovery and Nat Geo, why I am almost a professor.

Your vain attempts to try to force your ideal on everyone has failed miserably, if you are a Tim Tastewell wannabee, good for you. But don't expect any thinking person to adopt your utopian ideal of the wild, it exists in two places, books and your mind oops, 3, the TV.

No one should be forced to adopt your ideal about predators either, men who were wiser than you who had to live with them decided they weren't good for humans, I agree with them. There is no measurable downside to living without them.

[Oblio13]

I agree completely with you. Dangerous things like wolves and trees have no place in the modern wilderness. People are more important.

[nhlivefreeordie]

There are mountains of evidence against wolf re-introduction

New Idaho F&G Revelations about Wolves

In 2008, [IDFG Director] Groen announced the Department’s intention not to reduce the number of wolves and to keep Idaho’s wilderness areas saturated with wolves to provide more wolves in surrounding areas. But on Feb. 5, 2009, Groen told the Joint Legislative Oversight Committee (JFAC) that, because of wolves, Idaho’s deer and elk populations are decreasing at the rate of 15% per year!

He also told them that without wolves the herds would be increasing at seven percent per year. Then he said that wolf packs have become overcrowded and wolves are beginning to kill each other. On Feb. 18, 2009, Lance Hebdon and Assistant IDFG Director Sharon Kiefer answered a request from Senate Resources Committee Chairman Gary Schroeder with a report stating that wolves are costing Idaho up to $24 million per year in lost revenue from elk hunters.

http://westinstenv.org/wildpeop/2009/07/12/new-revelations-about-reintroduced-wolves/

[Teg]

There is actually research out there showing that wiping out wolves allows Coyotes to move in and take over and in some cases it can lead to overpopulation in some wild herd animals, so you eliminate one problem and make the are safe for another bigger problem.

There is no denying that wolves are dangerous and I am all for controlling the population, but I don't think that wiping them out is really the correct solution.

http://www.expressnews.ualberta.ca/article.cfm?id=6840

http://www.nps.gov/yell/naturescience/coyotes.htm

http://www.yellowstonepark.com/MoreToKnow/ShowNewsDetails.aspx?newsid=127

[nhlivefreeordie]

There is actually research out there showing that wiping out wolves allows Coyotes to move in and take over and in some cases it can lead to overpopulation in some wild herd animals, so you eliminate one problem and make the are safe for another bigger problem.

There is no denying that wolves are dangerous and I am all for controlling the population, but I don't think that wiping them out is really the correct solution.

http://www.expressnews.ualberta.ca/article.cfm?id=6840

http://www.nps.gov/yell/naturescience/coyotes.htm

http://www.yellowstonepark.com/MoreToKnow/ShowNewsDetails.aspx?newsid=127

I don't necessarily want them all wiped out, I want a few targets left...:wink:
There is a lot of data pointing to population explosions in areas where wolves are reintroduced often at the detriment of other game animals that we have managed for 100 years WITHOUT the wolf in the picture.

[Teg]

There is a lot of data going the other way too, it just depends who you want to believe. It's pretty hard to find neutral data anymore because there are folks on both sides of the argument throwing a lot of money around to get their views out there, factual or not. :)

I believe a middle of the road approach is needed, protect the species but control the population, however I am afraid folks on the extremes of the argument (on both sides) won't let this happen.

[nhlivefreeordie]

You are probably right about nothing positive, I would like to add a third group, those on both extremes, and those that live it...:D

[nhlivefreeordie]

This was caught by a buddy in Charette QC this one went 125lbs

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/dj88ryr/MVC-053S.jpg

[Teg]

You are probably right about nothing positive, I would like to add a third group, those on both extremes, and those that live it...:D

Unfortunately, a lot of those folks are blind or indifferent to the long term consequences of their actions. ;)

This was caught by a buddy in Charette QC this one went 125lbs

Nice looking pelt.

[yotetrapper]

For whoever it was wonderin about a coyote fur coat, here's a pic of a full length one.

http://www.used-fur-coats.com/images/fur_coat_coyote.jpg

[momma_to_seven_chi]

There are enough of them, there is a season on them in Canada and Alaska.

Most bed covers made with real fur are both practical and beautiful, as well as durable and with minimal care will last the lifetime of the user.
Here is one that is made from Beaver and Coyote pelts.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/dj88ryr/BlanketsNaturalBeaverCoyote.jpg

Beautiful. I have a dark colored mink coat that looks a lot like that beaver center on your coverlet.

[momma_to_seven_chi]

Sorry, just so we are clear, I do NOT believe animals have rights, I believe humans are at the top of the food chain and as such come first.

They do have rights. They have the right to fulfill their own purpose in creation. And their purpose is to be used by humanity. It's just the hierarchy of God's original creation. God brought the animals to man to be named, not the other way around. That doesn't mean humanity should be cruel to them, but humanely using them (for meat, fur,) or humanely controlling them is ok. Humans are at the top of the hierarchy of earth dwellers. That is just the way it is.

[momma_to_seven_chi]

For whoever it was wonderin about a coyote fur coat, here's a pic of a full length one.

http://www.used-fur-coats.com/images/fur_coat_coyote.jpg

Beautiful. It is a bit lighter than I would have imagined. I love the length.
Did your family trap the animals, or did you buy that premade somewhere?

[nhlivefreeordie]

They do have rights. They have the right to fulfill their own purpose in creation. And their purpose is to be used by humanity. It's just the hierarchy of God's original creation. God brought the animals to man to be named, not the other way around. That doesn't mean humanity should be cruel to them, but humanely using them (for meat, fur,) or humanely controlling them is ok. Humans are at the top of the hierarchy of earth dwellers. That is just the way it is.

You are right, I should have said human rights and I feel the same way you do.

[nhlivefreeordie]

Beautiful. It is a bit lighter than I would have imagined. I love the length.
Did your family trap the animals, or did you buy that premade somewhere?

Coyotes come in many colors, one of the reason fur coats are so expensive is the amount of fur needed to just match colors to make the jacket. If the jacket needs 10 pelts to make it, you may need to go through 100 to get matching pelts. Otherwise you end up with a odd looking mismatched jacket.

When I was in the business intimately, the words describing color on mink pelts was mind boggling, when buyers are at auctions along with quality, they are looking at colors.

There are several companies that will make garments from your pelts, or sell you pelts to make your item. I have used USAFOXX for several items, they do quality work and I have never been disappointed.

[nhlivefreeordie]

Here is one of Lynn's, it looks a lot better on someone than just hanging, but this one is raccoon.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/dj88ryr/DSCN1029.jpg

[yotetrapper]

Oh it's not mine, I just found a picture for ya, momma. I have some red fox trimmed leather gloves, and DH has a beaver hat, and we have several tanned wallhangers we trapped, but so far I've not been able to afford a coat or bedspread, although I will someday own a gray fox bedspread. They're beautiful!

[yotetrapper]

Wayne, is that coon coat dyed?

[nhlivefreeordie]

Wayne, is that coon coat dyed?

No, but it looks lighter in the photo than it actually is, but as coons go, it is a collection of rather pale coated coons.

[Anon001]

Just for what it's worth...

A buddy of mine saved an article out of the newspaper. One of our state legislators is wanting to start adding a mountain lion hunting season in the state since there are more and more sightings reported. Along the same lines, another rep wants to also include a hunting season for wolves. He stated that we will need it here sooner or later.

Paul

[nhlivefreeordie]

Just for what it's worth...

A buddy of mine saved an article out of the newspaper. One of our state legislators is wanting to start adding a mountain lion hunting season in the state since there are more and more sightings reported. Along the same lines, another rep wants to also include a hunting season for wolves. He stated that we will need it here sooner or later.

Paul

A friend of mine in AZ is a guide for cougar. If you do get a season, and have the time to know where they are, the money he makes is crazy. Just might be a way to make some easy spending cash, ( to buy more fencing...:D....sorry couldn't help myself.) Usually if there is a season on them, they are better kept under control, it is where they enjoy protected status where they tend to get into trouble.

[Teg]

Just for what it's worth...

A buddy of mine saved an article out of the newspaper. One of our state legislators is wanting to start adding a mountain lion hunting season in the state since there are more and more sightings reported. Along the same lines, another rep wants to also include a hunting season for wolves. He stated that we will need it here sooner or later.

Paul

Sounds like solid thinking, hunting is a good control. I'll admit though that I didn't know Kansas had a Mountain Lion population worth hunting.

[nhlivefreeordie]

Sounds like solid thinking, hunting is a good control. I'll admit though that I didn't know Kansas had a Mountain Lion population worth hunting.

They also have an excellent bobcat population, friends were going out there non resident trapping several years in a row when cat prices were up.

[Teg]

They also have an excellent bobcat population, friends were going out there non resident trapping several years in a row when cat prices were up.

Nice bobcats have some nice pelts some relatives back home who had a couple mounted that were very nice. As far as the mountain lion bit, I guess that when I think mountain lion, Kansas just doesn't jump to the front of my mind. ;):)

[Anon001]

Sounds like solid thinking, hunting is a good control. I'll admit though that I didn't know Kansas had a Mountain Lion population worth hunting.
We have quite a few. The article made it sound more like they state legislator wanted people to not be afraid of killing a mountain lion if it was preying on livestock. The .... can't think of his title... the man that is head of our wildlife department made the public statement that anyone is allowed to kill a mountain lion on his own property without fear of retribution and that is reason enough not to add them to the hunting seasons.

Adding a wolf hunting season is the one that surprised me. We'll see what happens.

Paul

[Anon001]

I guess that when I think mountain lion, Kansas just doesn't jump to the front of my mind. ;):)

Most people think that way. I think it's because, when most people think of Kansas they think of the entire state being flat and dry. Only the western part of the state is like that. The northcentral and entire eastern part of the state is just opposite of western Kansas. It is rolling hills, lots of timber, rivers, etc. It is an ideal habitat for mountain lion. We do have a lot of bobcats.

Paul

[Teg]

Most people think that way. I think it's because, when most people think of Kansas they think of the entire state being flat and dry. Only the western part of the state is like that. The northcentral and entire eastern part of the state is just opposite of western Kansas. It is rolling hills, lots of timber, rivers, etc. It is an ideal habitat for mountain lion. We do have a lot of bobcats.

Paul


Thanks for the info, I've never spent any time in Kansas so it's nice to learn a little something. :)

[jim]

Everywhere in the world, wolf attacks effectively ceased with the introduction of firearms. They're intelligent animals that learn very quickly to avoid people wherever they are hunted, just like cougars and bears. It's difficult to catch a glimpse of them even in areas where they are common. Only when hunting is prohibited do problems recur.

If we use fear as an excuse to eradicate wolves, then why don't we use the same logic to exterminate animals that kill far more people, like horses and dogs? Deaths caused by wolves aren't even a blip on the radar compared to deaths caused by whitetail deer. Bats, jellyfish, dolphins, ostriches and chimpanzees have killed more Americans in the last decade than wolves have. Why don't we exterminate dolphins? According to the CDC, "about 20 people a year are killed by cows in the United States". Not bulls, cows.

If you spent your entire life in wolf country, you'd still be far more likely to be killed by falling on a pencil.

Used to spend a lot of time trekking in Africa, and had encounters with all kinds of critters that make wolves look like toy poodles. But that's the allure of Africa. Without it's animals, it's just Arizona. Same with Alaska and British Columbia - without the animals, it's just nice scenery. One of my favorite memories is camping solo in the Chugach range, looking up at the northern lights and listening to wolves howl. Wolves in the zoo just aren't the same animals.

I submit that those who want the outdoors sterilized and risk-free don't belong outdoors. They should stay on their sofas, with their far more dangerous tobacco and Twinkies.

I'm beginning to think you just love to argue.

For myself, predator hunting is far more difficult than hunting anything else, and I do it the hard way using no fancy equipment. I'd prefer to be shooting Taliban, but I take what I can get.

jim

[jim]

The odds of being attacked by a wolf are roughly the same as being struck by lightning (1 in 750,000) and how many times have you been warned not to go out during electrical storms?

Those odds are counting everyone in the US, not just where the wolves are. Get real... or honest whichever you prefer.

All canines kill for fun, don't ever doubt that.

jim