Into The Wild

[LeatherneckPA]

OK, first the disclaimer. I am NOT trying to start a flame war or provoke anybody.

Now, that said, your references to "Into the Wild" made me Google it up. As a trained mountain and arctic survival instructor (28 years ago in the USMC) my first thought was, "What the heck made this kid believe he was going to be able to survive that?"

I mean, there is a HUGE difference between the planning and educating I read from you all here and what that kid did. As near as I can discover, he didn't even have a mentor to ease him into it.

[Lake_Lady]

I saw this movie a while ago and did NOT realize it was based on a true story. DH and I both commented, while watching it, what a dumb azz. At the end I felt bad for saying it, but I can't say I feel any differently. Who goes into the Alaskan wilderness with no experience?

[flatwater]

Fools
Flatwater

[WileyCoyote]

Very Succinct, Flatwater.

Does anyone remember the book and movie, "My Side of the Mountain" about an overly spoiled kid who goes into "the wilderness" to "live off of the land" - and makes flour from oak acorns? This sounds like the same sort of pablum they fed us then - that living off the land is easy, that the wilderness is your friend, and that "Call of the Wild" was an exaggeration.

People like this are dangerous - not just to themselves, but to all those eager folk out there who don't educate themselves, don't plan, and who especially don't think about Mother Nature as an indifferent and callous, exacting and demanding, mistress, but as a cuddly mommy who will perteckt them. Oh, well - Darwin rules. Eventually.

[remington]

Tenderfoot of tenderfeet.

[cinok]

I don't know what he was thinking just taking off like that but its a good look at the large of our civilized society. He could have survived with some basic skills and common sense,problem is most people have no idea od either.

[Terri]

My Parents took us camping, as part of a general education.

Personaaly, I would have LOVED to walk into the Alaskan bush! But, I would have worked out a plan to get back to the land of cheeseburgers if the need arose. I had learned a few survival skills from my parents, and one of them was how to get back, and when to get back!

Disclaimer: I did NOT watch the movie, as I knew what happened to the young man in the end and I do not like movies about disasters. I COMPLETELY sympathize with him, but, he didn't think. In the wilderness, that is NOT wise!

[Terri]

Oh, yes.

One of my favorite books was written by a gent from Great Britain, who moved to Canada and decided to live in the wilderness.

FIRST, he moved WAAY up north and got a job in a store that accepted fur for supplies.

THEN, he learned how to trap by talking to the customers and running a little trapline of his own, while earning money at the store to get him started.

THEN, he went into the wilderness with 6 months worth of supplies, traps, and his wife and child.

He did just fine! He thought, and so he lived.

(Three against the wilderness was the name of the book)

[Catalpa]

Oh, Wiley, you mean "My Side of the Mountain" wasn't real? I loved that book, must have read it a dozen times. I wanted to live in a tree and make clothes from deer hides, too.

Of course I was eight years old at the time. ;D

I haven't seen the movie, but I've read about that guy who wandered off into Alaska. By that time I'd already read Call of the Wild and the works of Robert Service, among others, and knew that what he did was pretty stupid.

[TNDadx4]

Does anyone remember the book and movie, "My Side of the Mountain" about an overly spoiled kid who goes into "the wilderness" to "live off of the land" - and makes flour from oak acorns?

The ending to the book was better, IMO as the family moved to the wilderness. As a kid, I had crazy thoughts of running away to the forest too.

You all are right, though in that there is a right way and a wrong way and not being prepared is the wrong way.

[QueenoftheFlock]

[quote author=LeatherneckPA link=board=sel-homesteading;num=1219084257;start=0#0 date=08/18/08 at 11:30:57]OK, first the disclaimer. *I am NOT trying to start a flame war or provoke anybody.

Now, that said, your references to "Into the Wild" made me Google it up. *As a trained mountain and arctic survival instructor (28 years ago in the USMC) my first thought was, "What the heck made this kid believe he was going to be able to survive that?"
quote]

I have read Into the Wild several times, as well as listened to it read on tape. The gist is basically this kid, while super smart, felt that living away from society and being "in touch" with nature was the morally correct way for him to live. He came from a relatively wealthy family who of course had no clue where their child had come up with his weird ideas.

His trip to Alaska was a lifelong dream for him. He knowingly went into the bush thinking he could live on game, roots and berries. The book made much of the fact that several times previously he had lived on a 10 pounds of rice for over 6 months. He was completely unprepared and - IMHO - didn't do any or enough research into what Alaska was. Just this beautiful idea of pristine wilderness where he could be away from all of society and its bad ways.

He stayed in the old school bus that was there for hunters (Hi Skooly!) but when he was ready to come out, he didn't take into account the melt and water flow that would cut him off from civiliazation. Had no compass or any kind of navigation skills so basically went back to the bus and starved. To be honest, i am thinking he had hardly any clothes, either and used skins from whatever game he managed to kill.

Listening to the story, which kind of makes the stupid kid into a hero, I feel most sorry for his folks and people who he had met as he bummed around who considered him a bright light for the future.

This all being said, Leatherneck, with your experience and learning on this type of thing, I'd be very very curious for your take on this. Apparently it's rather common in Alaska for people to decide to "live off the land" but (I think) it's hopefully people with more common sense, less idealogy and more skills?

It's a sad tale all around - smart kid dead, family and friends confused and hurting and really no reason for any of it.

[LeatherneckPA]

This all being said, Leatherneck, with your experience and learning on this type of thing, I'd be very very curious for your take on this. Apparently it's rather common in Alaska for people to decide to "live off the land" but (I think) it's hopefully people with more common sense, less idealogy and more skills?Queen, you have surmised correctly that it is not the general idea I have a problem with, rather the inept manner in which it was enacted. Terri's book was a fine example of doing it the right way. A little research, a little practice, and a lot of effort equal success.
ETA: A great movie along this line is Robert Redford's Jeremiah Johnson.

I have found that in life it is not necessary to be an expert in 99.9% of one's undertakings. That's why my signature line reads the way it does. Most of us are proof of that. We don't have all of the answers, but we are able to make a good start and are preparing ourselves for the possibility that we may need those skills.

Back in 1980, our battalion was sitting in an auditorium and the GySgt on stage asked how many people had spent at least one week in a tent in the wild, not in a campground. There were about 2 dozen of us (out of 600). Then he asked if any of us had ever done that during snow season. There were 3 of us. We were removed from the room and sent to become survival instructors. Four weeks later I was teaching Marines about hypothermia, building snow caves, sleeping in snow pits, and firemaking. Did that four weeks make me an expert? Heck no!! But I knew enough to be able to train others in very basic survival skills. When the battalion shipped to Norway for three months, we med-evaced only three Marines due to survival related matters. All three were ignorant young men who felt that "no cracker M* F* gonna teach me nuthin' worth knowing." (Two from Baltimore and one from DC)

With a little planning that young man could easily have survived that experience and come out the richer for it. Even the road map would have been better than no map at all. You don't really need a compass, but it sure would have been nice. A decent knife, two sets of sufficient clothing, some snare wire, flint/steel, a sleeping bag, a tent, that field guide on edible forage, and one of Tom Brown's books on survival skills could have practically guaranteed success. And if he weren't so ignorant as to completely turn his back on what civilization offered it sounds to me like that last ride he had would have set him up quite nicely to do exactly that. Especially since he already had the 22 rifle.

In the Corps I learned to live by the 6 P's.
Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

Even a modicum of prior planning would most likely have resulted in a different outcome. Thumbing around the Lower 48 in no way prepared him for Alaska. As someone else observed; true wilderness, while beautiful and serene, can quickly turn harsh and is seldom forgiving of ignorance.

Edited to correct grammatical errors most people wouldn't catch, but that annoy the dickens out of me.

[WileyCoyote]

Sorry, QueenoftheFlock, I just can't rake up any sympathy for the kid nor his friends or relatives. If they had really cared about him, they would have taught him basic survival skills and common sense, not simply been appalled and/or upset that he eschewed a shining future to go live in the wilderness. A high IQ is no good to anyone, especially its owner, if it isn't used to its fullest capabilities. *I call 'em the "shoes in the refrigerator' types - the ones who are brilliant but who can't even find their shoes. As long as they are in their element - be it electronics, whatever - they can shine, but take them out of it and what happens then? THAT is the real test of intelligence, according to Darwin - adaptability.

Six months on rice? Big deal. My daughter lived for two years at college on Ramen noodles and tea. She was smart enough to know that that alone didn't qualify her to be a survival type! *That is WAY different from living where one can only eat what one can find or kill - and where one has to take into consideration temperatures, weather changes, animal habits, plant habits, and personal abilities. Not even a compass? I am pretty good at directionals - never get lost in a big city maze, swamp, nor a rural area - but in a place with which I am not familiar, a compass or a map, and an understanding of how things can change very rapidly, is necessary. I found out very quickly that living in the desert, a dry wash can fill rapidly and suddenly with rainwater - even if there is no storm in sight. But I wasn't dumb enough to be standing in the wash when it happened!

All in all, I think that such stories (I thought "The Perfect Storm" was pretty stupid too) only serve to do two things - to encourgae other fools to spring up and try the same things without considering consequences, and to make those who actually DO try to learn and experience and grow intelligently to come under criticisms like "What makes YOU think YOU could do THAT? See, this PROVES that NObody can REALLY live off of the land, homestead, homeschool their kids well, " etc. *

Nope, sorry, no sympathy. And yeah, if I bite the big one doing something really stupid, you can all talk about me the same way! ;D

[GoodDaughter]

I haven't read the book referenced, but a few years ago there was a program on PBS about this young man. At least I am assuming it is the same young man. The bus is still extant and is a sort of 'shrine' to this young man.

If I recall, one of the contributing factors to his death was his eating a plant he called 'Indian potato'. I am not able to recall all the details, but apparently eating that plant somehow affects the body's ability to absorb nutrients; in effect you starve to death while eating it.

I would in no way rely completely on folklore or what other people tell you is 'edible' without some sort of positive i.d. by a knowlegable, experienced guide or similar. Even Carla Emery, in her 'Encyclopedia of Country Living' wrote of a young couple she saved from being poisoned by hemlock after seeing the young couple eat 'Indian celery' or some such name-- they ate it because a local person told them it was edible!! Ms. Emery convinced them it was poison and rushed them to the e.r. where they had their stomachs pumped.

[Terri]

In modern times, "survival skills" mean how to fill out a job application. Most people do not worry about such things as food and shelter.

I have come to realize that my folks are much the exception. Neither one of them believed that life was fair OR predictable, so they tried to teach us a little of everything. Including how to make a dry campsite in the rain, catch a fish, raise a garden, mend the house, fill out an application, shop economically, and make a balanced meal out of rice and the odd's 'n ends in the fridge.

Most parents do not think this is necessary: I am blessed that my parents thought that it WAS necessary!

[tufhelp]

Well said Terri, I have a similar background and those life lessons have seen us through thick and thin... A real blessing indeed!

I really can't believe the number of total incompetents I run in to every day that couldn't pour pi$$ out of a boot.

[LeatherneckPA]

I really can't believe the number of total incompetents I run in to every day that couldn't pour pi$$ out of a boot.

I think of lot of that is caused by "devolution" of society into a bunch of job-specific experts. Folks have gotten to the point where they just naturally expect someone else (or heaven forbid the "gubmint") to fix it for them. take my neighbor, for instance. Hell of a nice guy. Do anything for you. Mows my front yard twice a week when he does his own because, "It's just such a small piece and it helps me get a workout." But he has absolutely no clue which end of the screwdriver to hit the nail with, if you get my meaning. He's often asking me to either do some little task for him or fix the jumble he made of trying to do it himself.

Now, go back 100 years. Not really very long in terms of the 5,000 years of "civilization". Even as recently as before the Depression, most families could do a pretty decent job of getting by if they had to. Somebody in the family knew carpentry, someone could handle plumbing, most everybody knew farming or gardening. Today, when I ask a class of high schoolers how many live on working farm I get maybe one or two hands. Frequently none. they have no idea what a root cellar is. The girls can't cook unless it comes from a box or can. The boys think cooking requires a microwave. If it's not tech or digital they don't want to use it.

If the well pump breaks down (as mine did last month) they call a plumber. (Not me, BTW) If the roof needs shingles they call a contractor. Want to change the locks, call a locksmith. Want a fence to keep your kids and dog out of the streets? call a fencer. 'Tis a sad state of affairs out there.

[GoodDaughter]

That's an excellent point--most people only having job-specific abilities, and often the jobs being office/managerially oriented. Sure, people skills are invaluable, but when the power goes off due to an act of nature, what does one do to pass the time when they can't log onto their computer, watch television or play on their xbox? Sit around and eat? Well, how does one cook with no electric?

I grew up with a father who seemed to be able to do anything. He didn't necessarily pass any knowlege on to me by teaching me anything. It was more a situation where I observed and remembered, and thus was able to do things. That, plus an inherent curiosity about how things work, and an indescribable need to be able to "do it myself", without anyone's help.

I sometimes think young people today lack that curiosity and personal need to learn skills. I don't know why, though.

[remington]

Speaking as a young person I really think it is sad. Everybody at school is completely enamored with their computers and their games, wasting their life away in front of them. I have been camping, shooting, fishing, etc. since before I can remember (or so they tell me). When I was little I wanted to be like everybody else and have a game system of some sort. My parents wouldn't let me and now I am extremely glad for it.

[SkooliesRock]

I don't see where anyone has made the kid (Chris McCandless) a "hero", and he did infact survive for over 3 months before making an an easy mistake, by not properly identifying a plant source he'd ingested. He was a smart kid and knew the risks of the activities he chose to enjoy.

The thing that gets me is people who think you have to be some sort of god to survive, anyone with common-sense can....if they have to, or choose to. Not every-one comes from the same cookie-cutter mold, and choose not to be a part of society, or even associate with it anymore than they have to.

When I was 14, hitch-hiked several of the western states, and lived in the Black Hills of SD for over 3 months. I certainly didn't have any sort of survival training, or anything else......just wanted to see some of the country & rough-it for awhile. Was a time of my life I'll never forget, and wouldn't change it for anything....but wouldn't recommend it to anyone else that age either.

Google Dick Proeneke (spelling of last name may be incorrect) or Alone in the Wilderness, his life story. He was 50 when he moved to the bush, alone, where he lived for over 30 years. He was mere flesh & bone just like you & me. Was HE a nut too?

I'd much rather die the way McCandless did, than from eating doughnuts, sipping Starbucks coffee & setting some cubical everyday with high blood pressure & colesterol. People freak-out now a days when the power goes off for more than 5 minutes, or they can't find their cell phone, MP3 player, or any of the other crap they think is required to "live"...........others simply chose to follow a much simpler path.........makes you wonder who the "nuts" really are...........

If you've never done anything that's put your life in your own hands, then you haven't known what it's like to live.

[otobesane1]

I don't see where anyone has made the kid (Chris McCandless) a "hero", and he did infact survive for over 3 months before making an an easy mistake, by not properly identifying a plant source he'd ingested. He was a smart kid and knew the risks of the activities he chose to enjoy.

The thing that gets me is people who think you have to be some sort of god to survive, anyone with common-sense can....if they have to, or choose to. Not every-one comes from the same cookie-cutter mold, and choose not to be a part of society, or even associate with it anymore than they have to.

When I was 14, hitch-hiked several of the western states, and lived in the Black Hills of SD for over 3 months. I certainly didn't have any sort of survival training, or anything else......just wanted to see some of the country & rough-it for awhile. Was a time of my life I'll never forget, and wouldn't change it for anything....but wouldn't recommend it to anyone else that age either.

Google Dick Proeneke (spelling of last name may be incorrect) or Alone in the Wilderness, his life story. He was 50 when he moved to the bush, alone, where he lived for over 30 years. He was mere flesh & bone just like you & me. Was HE a nut too?

I'd much rather die the way McCandless did, than from eating doughnuts, sipping Starbucks coffee & setting some cubical everyday with high blood pressure & colesterol. People freak-out now a days when the power goes off for more than 5 minutes, or they can't find their cell phone, MP3 player, *or any of the other crap they think is required to "live"...........others simply chose to follow a much simpler path.........makes you wonder who the "nuts" really are...........

If you've never done anything that's put your life in your own hands, then you haven't known what it's like to live.

As a resident of South Dakota, I respectfully submit that spending 3 months in our Black Hills is a pale comparison to spending 3 months in the Alaska wilderness. And it's not that anyone is suggesting that the kid should not have pursued his dream. We're suggesting is that he could have been better prepared. His death seemed to be senseless, in that, a modicum of preparation might have prevented it. As for dying from too many doughnuts or not enough food, how about dying of natural causes? I applaud anyone who follows their dreams wherever they take them. A little preparation and common sense will take them farther along that journey.

And for what it's worth, I moved to SD from NC because I wanted to get away from the very rat race you reference. I didn't feel the need to become a hermit or live off the land in the wilderness. I received plenty of criticism for my move because of the huge financial hit that I took. My blood pressure is better and my life is much more peaceful now.

TK

[SkooliesRock]

It wasn't my intent to try & "compare" my experiences to those of McCandless. But, since you have, I'll add that I was significantly younger (by more than 10 years), and it was also winter while I was there. Upon arriving at Spearfish, while thumbing for a ride I was hit by a freezing rain storm & had to take shelter. My front was covered by more than 1/4" of frozen ice.

Ever seen an eagle kill a fawn? I have. Ever catch a trout for supper with your bare hands? I have. None of this is "bragging", I'm just sharing some of my personal experiences. Alot of people thought (lol, and think) I was (am) nuts. Perhaps their right, perhaps they aren't.

What do you judge the actions of another person on? Your own actions or thoughts? Is a bungee jumper "nuts" simply because you don't have the nerve to do the same thing? I wonder how many sheeple read this forum & think everyone here is "nuts"?

I kick myself in the butt daily for not giving other things a shot while my health (and age) permitted it, maybe I got it out of my system when I was younger, I don't know. Still, when I watch some of the shows like Deadliest Catch, or Iceroad Truckers, or Black Gold.....I envy those guys. Every day is an adventure, and everyday could be their last.

All I'm saying is, it's easy for someone to set back & condem another when they've never met the person, or been in their position. We're quick to label another "nuts" simply because they've chosen to do something we either can't, won't or are too afraid to try.

Weren't we at one time the top of the food-chain? As far as I know, that's not changed, it's genetically instilled in everyone of us. People need to scrape-away all of the crud of today's society, of the technological-era, of the fast-food, drive-up/thru, the buy-now pay-later, sprawl-mart disposable, rather take yours than work for my own, read the fine print only a lawyer can decipher, world we live in.

I'd have much rather lived 200 years ago than now. Too much crap involved with just living. I can't say I have any "heros", but there are alot of people I respect for who they are, and McCandless was one of them. At least he had the grapes to "do" and not just talk about it. And I've got some news.....you, me, everyone else here....we're all gonna die, regardless of how well we take care of ourselves, how much we go to the gym, if we don't smoke or drink.

You certainly have the right to join the "rat-race", be a part of something quieter, or be a total hermit......but it's not my place to condem you for the choices you've made. I wish you & everyone here the wisdom to make the choices that are best for you....however that choice may not be right for the next person. ;)

Good luck with your BP, I hope if you've had problems with it, that it's under control & stays that way. Had mine checked today, nurse said "perfect".....I laughed & said "and they say smoking & drinking are bad for you"....

I'd much rather live a short exciting life, than a long dull one............

[cinok]

Hey skoolie i agree wish i could have live 100 or more years ago but to be honest if i hoped in a time machine right now and made the trip i would probably be lost. I have skills but not all the ones i would need. I also wish and probably most of us do that we did more when we were younger and stronger. I do not belittle what he tried to do but an unprepared person trying to undertake an adventure like this is an recipe for disaster. How many times do SAR teams go out for hikers and climbers. We had a program in my high school wee you went hiking climbing canoeing and so on it also included basic survival skills there were a few of us who were Boy Scouts so we were old hands at this but the instruct er used us and taught use more. this would be a useful call for all

[SkooliesRock]

I don't agree that he went all that unprepared. This is something which crosses my mind constantly........

This forum is full of members preparing for TSTHTF, they're storing food & other items, learning how to farm, preserve food, make everything from clothes, to brooms, to any number of other things. They've got BOB's & BOV's....and all sorts of procedures, plans, and protocol..........

Well, what happens to all their planning when a fire or natural disaster completely destroys all of that? What happens of their 250 miles away visiting family who doesn't share their concerns (so are unprepared for much of anything), and TSHTF.....and they can't get back to their home, supplies, and everything they've gathered? What will they do 3 months post TSHTF when a mob of 50 people storm their home in search of food & water?

Does that classify these people as "unprepared"???

[gsb]

I kick myself in the butt daily for not giving other things a shot while my health (and age) permitted it, maybe I got it out of my system when I was younger, I don't know. Still, when I watch some of the shows like Deadliest Catch, or Iceroad Truckers, or Black Gold.....I envy those guys. Every day is an adventure, and everyday could be their last.

Skooies, I agree I also envy these guys. I joined the army at age 27 after a couple of years I wished i would have joined at 18. I would be 1 year from retirement! spent 2 1/2 years of the first 4 years of my marriage deployed. If you want heroes look to the men and woman of our armed services, they are all heroes in my opinion.

[Quietgentleman]

The sad part about this is there are people out there doing what this kid did but are not written about because they haven't come to a tragic end. The story of Dick Proenekke is more interesting and by fare should be shown more respect than this kid. In the years Dicks earthquake reports helped scientists in civilization learn how seismic waves travel through the immense mountain ranges of Alaska. His recording of animal and hunter habits helped scientists realize how hunting affects wild animal populations. But because he survived and finally grew to old to take the extremes of Alaska weather he isn't romanticized as much as Chris McCandless.

QGM

[SkooliesRock]

I say if anyone chooses to do the exact same thing, good for them! They know the risks going-in, and if they perish, atleast it's by their own doings, and they did it doing something they wanted to do.

I'd take my chances at surviving in the bush over the Bronx any day! I'd rather deal with a griz, than 12 lanes of traffic in LA. If Dick Proneke would have died, would he have been called a nut, or unprepared? Probably not, simply because of his age. Not exactly fair in my book.

I don't get the feeling that some have read the book or watched the movie. McCandless got a book specifically on edible plants. He ingested a plant he shouldn't have because it looked nearly identical to the edible version. McCandless was more of a free-spirit than was Proneke, it was obvious, and people envy that because most of them don't have a clue as to the freedom that goes along with living that sort of lifestyle.

[livinlite]

This is a bad way to start for me here with my first post...but I've been lurking for a while and thought I could add a little something.

I know some on this site might not be big fans of Charlie Rose or Sean Penn, but his interview on that show about Into the Wild gives a lot more insight into the film, the family, and maybe what Chris was after.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXuvc4QCQuU

Whatever one's take on the book/film, it's interesting food for thought.

What surprises me is that it wasn't enough for him to experience the freedom of the road or the desert or the PCT...or simply to head out into a wilderness a little more suitable for his skills and then progress to AK. *There is something to be said for the dreamer though and something maybe all of us can identify with...that desire to live our own lives on our own terms.

[LoriAnna]

Skoolies I agree with you.

And your opinion can change depending on where you're looking at the situation from.

For example. While still living in Alaska where I am from I watched the Grizzlie Diaries video and thought, what an idiot. Now, not in Alaska I think, what a beautiful fool and what a glorious death!

Down south or "outside" is, in my mind, full of needless scary death.

does it make me a troll to add a question to this? (if so, someone tell me, I don't want to do the wrong thing on here)

Do the public schools down here teach any sort of survival? In Alaska they teach it, age appropriate from an early age/grade and Alaska Survival Skills was a class I took while homeschooling in High School.

I'd rather die a fool like that than down here next time I'm driving to Wally World for diapers and wipes.

[WileyCoyote]

I don't think you're a troll, and the question is to me en pointe. So if I'm wrong we can both get yelled at! LOL

I never had a survival skill class, and neither did my kids in public school. (We lived in NM, OH, SC with the kids). *I think it is laudable - and necessary - for anywhere, not necessarily just Alaska. You wouldn't believe the folks who come South and let their kids swim/play in and around green murky ponds, not knowing anything about water moccasins or alligators!

But most folks can drive to whatever they need or whatever they want in the lower 48, and 'survival skills' in even our small town consisted of "don't watch the drug dealers on the corner"; and "look both ways before crossing an intersection,even at a green light" and even in some instances - "Don't trust that cop; he deals drugs off-hours". *The humanimals are ofttimes more deadly than the wild creatures, or poisonous plants, and surviving them takes a lot of caution and attention.

They pretty much eliminated all but basic shop classes from our area PS, and you had to go to a special building off-campus to get anything but basic readin writin and rithmetic. They offered letter jackets one year to any student who could score above 900 on the SATs, and four (out of 135) students got them. So learning or teaching much of anything, much less anything useful, was pretty much not happening.

Everything I, hubby, and our kids learned was from reading and trial and error - or later our oldest went into the USAF and learned a lot about weapons and survival. He still plants and preserves just like I taught him, though! ;D

PS ditto, o2bsane. We moved from SC to NE for the very same reason. And OMG, you are sooo right about the Black Hills! We spent this past Easter weekend there at a small family reunion, and Yikes! I had reserved a car without 4WD, and the nice guy at the rental place told me I needed a 4 WD. We went into the Black Hills - beautiful bright clear sunny morning. We went to the Mammoth excavation and stayed there for two hours - when we came out the temps had dropped 20 deg and it was snowing. When we tried to drive back to Rapid, I had to engage the 4 WD to get us through the drifts - and the one plow on the road was going the other direction. By the time we got to Rapid - there was no snow, and it was sunny, just colder. Later I found out that the Black Hills gets the most precipitation of anywhere in SD - and its weather changes are abysmally quick! Although I don't want to disparage Alaska's likewise wild fluctuations, the speed of what comes up in the Black Hills can blow you away... literally. You picked a pretty spot to live, though. ;D

[Terri]

Here in the lower 48, they teach self defense, stranger danger, and defensive driving. In California, they taught swimming and about rip tides.

In other words, they teach the hazards that all of the kids will need to learn.

It was my parents that taught us how to deal with snakes, and that cute baby bears have their Mothers near by and that we need to LEAVE if we see one! Such things are not taught in school!

[walls0stone]

I wonder when all that stuff started in school any way? What about mom and dad take care of the other dangers and schools just worry about education. I'm dreading the day they need me to help with the math home work they have BECOUSE they skipped math class to learn about fatty foods.

I remember one of my teachers being anti hunter and filling us with that retoric...why do they do this crap???

[Terri]

They taught us how to deal with the dangers around us because because Mom and Dad often did not know about it and so they could not teach us. And, they wanted us to live to grow up.

Then again, my daughters current health class is all about how the lunch program is poor and unhealthy.

Excuse me? As an RN, I KNOW how to balance a diet and the school lunches are excellent!

It is possible to CHOOSE a poor diet at the lunch counter, but that is a matter of active choice! Skinny, actively growing children need a lot of calores from healthy foods. Kids who have finished their growth do not.

Should the growing children not be allowed to have the high-calorie foods that they NEED because some kids will over eat if they get the chance? Should they be denied the nourishment that they NEED in things like those mini-pizzas, ( calcium, fat, and calories) because SOME KIDS WILL CHOOSE to over eat if they are one of the menu CHOICES?

The health teacher is full of it! DD is on the upper side of normal so she usually CHOOSES to skip dessert at lunch, DS is on the skinny side of normal and so he often chooses a dessert to go with him lunch.

It isn't the school lunches that are bad: they are excellent. It is the choices that some kids choose to make.

I approve of the schools teaching life skills as well as math, etc: it is just that some schools and teachers are full of it!

[LeatherneckPA]

Well, I have a different outlook on the entire school thing nowadays. See, I now substitute teach at local schools. And many of the teachers I talk to lament the passing of solid educations just as much as you do. But state mandated curricula and that whole "Leave No Child Behind" crap have really substantially tied their hands.

I am doing a long-term gig right now for a 9th grade Algebra teacher. And I couldn't help but ask how kids are getting into my 9th grade class unable to perform basic functions with positive and negative integers. It seems that at this particular school district NO CHILD is permitted to be failed in 6th, 7th, or 8th grades.

And I am also seeing a lot of kids whose parents take absolutely no interest in their schoolwork or homework. I don't care if you can help them with it or not. You have to make them do it. And that is not happening.

Ooooh, I could start an entire LONG rant so I better just shut up for now.

[akarose]

Hi Folks,
Just a few comments on the movie, and the adventures of living without many creature comforts. I recently saw another Alaskan on the forum who might want to comment too. :)

With regard to the movie, without making any personal judgments about the young man's abilities, what he did was to rely on only books and the skills he developed on his journey to Alaska. The river he could not cross in the spring is snow melt/glacier fed. As are most streams in the Interior. What I didn't understand was why he didn't try an alternative route. Markers laid out to attract the attention of Bush pilots. ... Something.

It was an easy mistake to make between the plants. Had he only turned the page, he would have learned the 2 plants are too similar to safely distinguish between them without experience. It must have been a horrible death, to starve, to dehydrate, with his intestinal tract paralyzed.

He was not the first, nor I suspect will be the last, to perish in the wild here. It would be very difficult to do what he tried to do, even with a lot of experience.

I can understand what might have driven him to want to experience untamed Alaska. I moved here when I was just shy of my 22nd birthday. It was a wonderful adventure and I have never regretted it. But it can be dangerous without a little preparation, and a lot of respect for nature. Moose browse in my back yard, and I live in town... But, Northern Exposure embarrassed me. :-/

Another post under this topic mentioned the rat race. :P I am willing to accept that I'm just plain weird. But if I can't get to a place where I can look out to the horizon and not see pavement, houses, fields, malls - I can't breathe. That, and king crab, are why I live in Fairbanks. ;) And I'm not about to set off to spend the winter on the outskirts of Denali Park, thank you very much.
Rose

[Terri]

"No child left behind" is SUPPOSED to mean that weak students get extra attention, not that they are automatically passed!

[cinok]

Off topic for the thread but most of the kids that get help are now assigned IEP not sure what it stands for, Leatherneck might know. What this does is maintains a 70% average for the child so he can move up

[TNDadx4]

IEP in TN is an Individualized Education Plan. Councilors sit down with parents and go over the needs of the student. Students are then pulled out of a certain class once or twice a week to work with someone on a one-to-one basis to help improve.

Reports are sent home with report cards letting parents know where the student is as far as mastery of the needed skills.

[TNDadx4]

As far as No Child Left Behind, I've talked to several of my kids teachers and they don;t like it. They have to teach "to the test" so the kids know the info on the test rather than learning the regular curriculum.

[Terri]

Off topic for the thread but most of the kids that get help are now assigned IEP not sure what it stands for, Leatherneck might know. What this does is maintains a 70% average for the child so he can move up

IEP = Individual Education Plan.

In other words, my son is hard of hearing so his IEP said he sits near the front of the class. My son has coordination problems so he writes slowly, and so he was given extra time on his tests and assignments if he needs them. If he needed time to finish a test, he was sent to the library to finish while the class went on.

Now that he is doing better, he is on a 504 plan instead, which is an IEP "light".

[cinok]

Our one son has an IEP, this also adjusts his grade to no lower then a 70. We infomed the school that we wanted real grades and they were shocked. They were happywe asked and adjusted the plan

[LeatherneckPA]

Most "real" teachers that I work with hate the IEP's. they believe the kids learn to use it as a crutch or shield to keep from having to work to get acceptable grades. It's not the concept they don't like, it's the way it has become abused. The problem, as they see it, it that the kid become dependent upon the protection of the IEP, then hits the real world and no longer has that protection. It's a recipe for disaster, and most teachers believe it teaches kids that they don't have to strive to succeed, that it will be handed to them.

I have also also heard, and come to believe personally, that "No Child Left Behind" has been perverted from it's original intent. Most school boards and administrations in this area have come to believe that means no child is permitted to not be promoted to the next grade, no matter how little work he/she does. The discussions I've been involved in lead me to believe the intent was more along the lines that no child would be forsaken, rather than automatically promoted.

Now, granted, I've only been teaching for two years. But I have seen enough to make me really dislike the entire notion of NCLB and IEP's as they have been "interpreted".

[Terri]

People have been promoing kids since *I* was in school, and I am in my 50's. It looks so MUCH better than holding them back! At the time they had a famous article about it, I think the title was "Why Johnny can't read" or some such. Don't blame "No child left behind" for THAT, it is a very old problem.

And, handicapped kids break their backs in school. The INTENT was to have the teachers work as hard. Many teachers always worked as hard as my son, but, a great many of them did not. That hasn't changed in 30 years, either.

I can see where unethical parents could try to get their child a free ride through school. I have enver understood it, but I have seen that some parents do.

Personally, I want my kids to have educations so that they can get jobs, but not all parents are interested in this.

Actually the EASY thing for my son is to make it so that if he does not hear the assignment then he just gets an F, but, there is no benefit to him in that and so if he does not hear the assignment he can do it when he DOES find out about it.

As for him not having an IEP in the real world, that is fine. He will, at least, be educated. If the school of hard knocks kicks my son in the teeth-and why should he be different than the rest of us naive 18 year olds- he will at least be able to fill out a job application and balance his checkbook! The job of the schools is to give him knowledge. DH and I can do the rest.

I have also heard that "No child left behind" is not working.

I don't know why.

[becomingmyself]

I've read up quite a bit on this young man and I understand why many folks immediately condemn him as an unprepared fool.

He had experience fending for himself in the wild (thought not in AK), he'd sought advice from those who claimed to be experienced & from those who truly were, and he did read guides. But he'd never been there before to feel it out, didn't bring a map, didn't know the lay of the land. But that was his purpose - pull off a solitary exploration of a place entirely new to him. As close to a solo Lewis & Clark as he could get.

As Penn said in the previously mentioned interview with Charlie Rose - people are either going to dislike him & condemn him as a fool, or see him as someone searching for something through the risky adventures that were so much more common for mankind before the turn of the 20th century.

He actually entered the Alaskan wilderness in early spring and successfully completed his 3 months of living in the wild. As was mentioned before, he failed to take into account the rise of the river with melt water. However, he very likely would have still been alive to greet the hikers who found him just a couple of weeks after he died, if it hadn't been for the alkaloid poisoning that is thought to have killed him. From what I understand it probably came from eating contaminated seeds from an edible plant. (as mentioned before on this thread, I think).

Anyway. He didn't go out there to prove anything to any of us. And if success is accomplishing what you set out to do - well... He did what he intended - survived 3 months in the woods. He just died after doing it.

I look at it as, he lived and died as he wanted. At least he didn't leave behind a wife and kids... or worse yet, try to drag a wife (and kids) along to survive off the land.

I tend to have that sort of thought when it comes to talk of BOVs & BOBs. I'm not an into the wild sort of gal. But he was, apparently, that sort of guy.

[becomingmyself]

I know I've already said a lot... but I wanted to also mention that thousands of people throw their lives away with a lot less pure (respectable? worthy? soulful?) intentions, everyday.

[huckelberry]

hey,jarhead,i spent a year in alaska, not much different than that kid,i know several alaskans that live alone way..way out in real.. true wilderness...i gotta admit the corp spent a lot of time an effort teachin me those arctic,an cold weather survival skills,i was an instructor at pickell meadows,,,sound famialer ..ok so i caint spell...oh yea for all you civilians out there only another jarhead can get away with that name..semper fi...huck

[LeatherneckPA]

huck, my training was Camp Ripley MI and then I went to Norway (somewhere around Alta) a month before the rest of the regiment for advanced training.

Semper Fi Marine

[cookiecache]

I am working on a way to let people wanting to try living in the wilderness come to my homestead in the Alaska Bush to learn or test their skills. The main problem is legal liability. I don't want it to cost me $50,000 because someone hit their thumb with my hammer.

Currently I think my best course is to rent them camping/cabin space. I still have to consult a lawyer.

I could offer an "In To The Wild" experience without the tragic ending.

[heartlunger]

Just don't promise that they won't have the tragic ending.

[silvergramma]

have you seen the video "A Place in the Wilderness" its amazing.. no i dont want to go to alaska,, North Dakota is as close to it as i chose to go... my grandfather and his brother inlaw built a cabin here where i live and its still standing but as short cuts were taken from some first timers,, its leaning now due to lack of maintenance and is about to come down ina few years with the help of mother nature...

[cookiecache]

It seems that there are many people who like the idea of life in the wilderness, but few that would actually try it. I am still working on a way to bring people to my homestead to build cabins of their own, and share the garden. Perhaps the desire to live in the wilderness is not as prevalent as I had thought.