Woodstoves.

[jgelt]

The country home I bought early this year was built in 1880 and added on to in 1920. I'm in the Ozarks and we have moderate winters.

The house has no heating system and trying to put one in would be very expensive and labor prohibitive, assuming something could be put in at all.

The options where I am for heating are, propane, electricity and wood.

The previous owner opted for electricity and propane. Something we don't want to pay for again.

I'm very much in favor of wood heat. I have 10-15 acres of mostly untouched woods. I have lot's of time.

We are in the process of walling in a porch to be the wood stove room. We have about 1800 square feet to heat.

Here's the problem. My wife has no experience with wood stoves. Mine is limited to a vacation home my father has which gets maybe 2-4 weeks of winter use out of it.

We shopped around looking at the various units and looking at the reviews. We saw units in the $700-1200 range depending on bells and whistles. We can afford that relatively easily, especially considering the cost savings we will get this winter.

I'm not handy. When someone says "No, this is easy, anyone could do it!" I am the one who defies all the predictions. If something requires some work in a non-critical area or requires a lot of grunt labor I'm there. If it requires something that involves the safety of my family, my checkbook or credit card comes out to get it done right. Anything that requires precision better than plus or minus 6 inches won't come from my craftsmanship.

In my neck of the woods it's nearly impossible to get people to come out to your house to do professional work. When you find someone who does it's an event for celebration.

We got a combo chimney sweep stove installer to come out and take a look at our place.

The good news, he concurred with our assessment of where the wood heat should be. Our current brick and rock chimney is not salvageable. The porch we want to enclose would be a great way to set up.

He sells stoves as well. He sells Country Flame stoves. He thinks most of the stoves around are crap and not worth installing. His words were "Those $700 stoves at the store are a nice price, but you'll be replacing it in 7 years, the ones I sell will last 20 plus."

He's recommending a unit that costs $2100. 3 times what we would pay in a store.

So at this point my B.S. meter is going off.

Is there that great a difference between stoves? Is it worth it?

How about long time, all winter, wood stove users out there, how long does a stove last? How doeas it "wear out?"

[bookwormom]

your wife can learn how to use it, it is not that hard. The Amish keep their heating stove in the basement and it keeps the whole house warm. Ours is in the kitchen and we use a couple of ceiling fans. don't know how much the stoves at TSC for instance last. check Vogelzang.

[walls0stone]

my parrents have had the same stove in the basement for 30 years, we didn't use anything other heat..not out of fad..they had children..thought my name was Kerry Wood till I was 13. Stove is a large, round barrel and now that I think on it, it belonged to someone before it belonged to them, could have been from the early 70's.

We havea woodstove here. it's fine.. but I'd say about woodstoves...all people, in your house should know how to use it. I've even told some of her people how to use it incase we have an emergency.

I clean my own, it's cake...long rope on a brush.

[kawalekm]

Hi jgelt
Don't worry, she'll learn. Yes, 2100$ for a stove sounds like BS. Have you considered buying used? I bought a Monarch cookstove off of www.craigslist.com. You might want to shop for a used stove before spending that much money.

Yes, stoves do very much wear out, or better to say burn out. If you want to buy a used stove look at two areas carefully. The bottom or sides of the firepan is likely to burn out in an unprotected stove (no grate or bricks). The second area is the flue area just where the exhaust comes out of the stove. Look carefully for burnt out areas of metal there where smoke can leak out. Other than that, tap around the body of the stove looking for cracks in cast iron. A big crack is serious trouble.

But, don't be discouraged. Wood definately is the way to go. I just read recently that a cord of good oak is the equivalent of 300 gallons of propane! That's especially good if you can harvest it yourself! Propane is still a good backup, just to keep the ambient temperature above freezing when you're out of the house for a few days. Go for it!
Michael

[Anon001]

Hey jgelt,
I have used wood heat for about 15 years. I bought an Ashley at a farm auction a nd can't remember what I paid. An old Ashley stove is hard to beat. When I moved to the current place, I bought another Ashley at a farm auction for $100. I have used it about 6 years. I have no idea how old either one was before I bought them. The only thing I had to do on either before using was to replace the door gasket on the one I use now.

Your wife will get the hang of it. Usually when I light my stove, it burns all winter without going out and having to be relit.. Oh...except when I'm gone for a week at Christmas. Then it's a ventless propane heater mounted on the wall.

You will love wood heat and so will your wife.
Paul

[StephiLou]

I am glad somebody asked this. I was going to ask the same thing.

In our case, however, we have a kid with breathing/heart problems on oxygen. We also live in a ranch on a 4 foot crawl, so we would be putting the woodburner in our living area.

Any advice on placement, wood vs. pellet, & safety with my son's health problems and O2?

We normally heat with natural gas, but heating bills were running between $400 - $600 a month last year. We have caulked all of our windows, blown in more insulation, and are putting bubble wrap on the windows. (The front room has one 13 foot wide picture window).

Thanks for your time! :)

Steph

[Anon001]

Steph, you may want to check with your son's doctors. You will get smoke in the house if you use wood to heat. If I had a son with breathing troubles and/or asthma, I would probably get an outdoor wood furnace. No matter how careful you are, you will get smoke in the house from time to time. It may not be much but it will be there.

By the way....avoid pellet and corn stoves. I used to work for a farmers co-op and I learned that a pellet stove requires a special type pellet one year when pellets were in such high demand that people couldn't buy any locally and came to us to try and buy them. Although the pelleted wood used in horse stalls is probably much cheaper than what is used in stoves, it is not the kind that you can burn in the stove. Also, the price of corn makes a corn stove prohibitive. Not only that, but if the electricity goes out with a corn stove, you have no heat. The auger that feeds corn to the stove is electric unless you revamp with a 12V motor. But, I would stick with wood heat as the most cost efficient and try an outdoor furnace. My best friend has one outdoor and it heats his house nicely. And he doesn't use electricity for a fan. He has it setting much lower than the house and lets the heat come up naturally.
Paul

[walls0stone]

Oh, little tip..with a woodstove in a living space, dry your wash beside it. Since wood heat is a very dry heat, you may need to rehumidify your home. but if you set up a load of wash to dry beside the fire, your getting more of your money back, and putting water back in the air.

[JBinKC]

He likely is trying to sell the top of the line EPA certified stove and hopefully the styling of the unit warrants its cost. Ideally something EPA certified is what you should aspire to. They don't emit visible smoke, are about 20-25% more efficient and give much less problems for creosote formation.

My problem with considering an OWB besides the extra costs to purchase and install is the potential change in regulations that are currently plaguing owners in other states because they are smoke emitters.

If you live far enough away from a neighbor you could install a cheap used stove that is not EPA certified but they do consume more wood and you need to clean your chimney twice as often and I would tend to avoid pine firewood.

For a house your size I would consider an Englander NC30 which is an EPA certified stove that is $1000 retail that is sold at the big box stores Home Depot and Sutherlands and has an extremely good reputation in customer service and many happy users on Hearth.com in their stove ratings.

[jgelt]

Thanks. All good information as usual.

I like the laundry advice.

We found a similar unit for a heck of a lot less and a better install price.

Our biggest issue at this time is space. The previous owner was running ventless propane and electric baseboard. The 2 months of winter we had were darn expensive. I don't want to 4-5 months of that.

The main heater sits on an old hearth that is up against a walled off fireplace that goes to the chimney.

That hearth is in the worst spot in the house for both space and heating purposes. The chimney probably hasn't seen any maintenance or use in 40 years. It's in bad shape.

We have a side porch off the kitchen which we are beginning to enclose. It's the best lace we have to put it, I believe. It gives easy access to the stove, gets it out of our walkway, centers the heat in our house, gives us a place to store wood near the stove. It also gives us a few extra options should heat not flow upstairs like we are expecting to.

The porch area isn't huge, so we'll need to stick with a newer unit, something with good shielding that will allow us to place it where we want it.

All in all, a higher end stove and the cost of enclosing the porch will more than offset the cost of paying for a winter of propane and electric heat.

Now the fellow who came to give us an estimate left us with a question. My wife distinctly recalls him saying that the stove would have to be placed kitty corner to better project the heat into the house. I didn't hear that, it doesn't mean it didn't get said.

Do any of you have a stove in a house corner rather than centered in a room? Should you have it oriented kitty corner? It might cause to tweak are enclosing plans a bit.

[Clair_Schwan]

I enjoy wood heat very much. All my stoves are purchased used. The most I paid was $250. They are available from garage sales, auctions and ads in the paper. I've had two given to me.

If you get a used one, make certain you can read the specs on the stove so you'll know how to safely install it. The specs give you clearances from combustibles, and typically the building department want you to install according to the spec on the stove.

The kitty corner placement issue isn't anything to do with heating the room, it's probably more to do with getting the clearance needed from combustibles. The flat sides and back typically need to be farther away than the corners.

I think the big issue with placement is where the exhaust runs. You don't want a long exhaust run if you can avoid it, and you'll want to go between studs, whether in the roof or wall.

A stove with a fan is also a big plus. It is much more efficient at pushing out heated air into the room. Otherwise, you'll probably want to mount a fan near the stove to get the heat into other areas of the house.

The idea of a stove wearing out is far fetched. Unless you're operating a barrel stove (made from 55 gallon barrels), then the chance of you wearing it out in your lifetime is remote at best. Checking for cracks and holes with a flashlight and tapping is a good idea. Some you can just look at and see that they haven't been abused.

Clair

[WRTN]

In my opinion, Fisher made the best wood stove ever built and the heaviest duty not to mention heavy. :o

Keep an eye out for the all time favorite best the Fisher Papa Bear. They come up for sale on ebay and other classified ads. the Granda Ma and Grand Pa Bear wood stoves were good stove too but don't put out near as much heat.

[John_-n-_Ann_in_NC]

We just bought a Fisher off craigslist to accomodate our un-usable chimney. Just dropped a liner in. Great price and the stove had very little prior use. But you're right, it does weigh an awful lot! Our house was built in 1904 and the weight of the stove and two grown men carrying it put our wooden steps to the test.
Definitely the way to go though.

[MHinFox]

Have a Fisher which has been great for many years of service just use for backup these days...but has been a dandy

[fnfredux]

I've had a number of woodstoves over the years, air tight and not, even one coal/wood burner, some old relic from Sears originally. Never had a problem with any. Most important two issues are proper chimney and wall clearances. My favorite was one of those Jotul(?sp). The chimney came out of the back so I could put a tea kettle or stewpot on the stove. We had a box stove that wasn't even air tight, a small one and it heated about 900sq' that wasn't well insulated. That Jotul, our house was pretty danned tight, adequate insulation...that little number kept us WARM. House again about 1,000 sq' and it would get to be 90 degrees in there if we weren't careful.
We never had a stove wear out, even the old used ones we bought. Proper maintainance and cleaning, replacing broken firebricks and gaskets, painting when necessary and common sense use, as in burning only seasoned wood, will keep any QUALITY stove (check steel gauge that's what is MOST important) in good shape for 15-20 years. Odds are that you'll take better care of $2100 stove than a $500 dollar one, that's why it will last longer.
Don't forget, the stove if you have it installed is only the jumping off price for the project. Check out triple wall pipe prices(you'll need some), check out fire proof floor guards and fireproof panels for the walls, then again you may want something more decorative... also figure in the installation charges.
That $2100 could end up being $4000.
In this economy don't be so ready to jump on that stove. Installation is NOT difficult, I've done two completely on my own and had no problems AND I am a woman, and I was no "spring chicken" when I did either.
If you are in the country, (are you a newcomer?) don't stand out there waving your money, it's a bad idea. Read up on things via the web and find out what you need to know. Google "installing a woodstove", a number of articles and it'll give you some knowledge when you look for a stove/installer. Chimney sweeps are not contractors. I prefer to do the work myself, after studing the rquirements and methods. I trust my life more to my own work, and that's what it is, your stove improperly installed could mean your life.
As I said, it is NOT hard, jus think it out. I don't know why you want to locate it on a closed in porch, are you (I HOPE NOT) considering a chimney/stove pipe that does not exceed the height of the roof peak?

[mtwildflower]

When we were looking to install a woodstove, we checked with our fire insurance requirements and found that in order to keep the insurnace from going up, then the stove and chimney HAD to be professionally installed.

So, that's another factor you may need to consider.

[fnfredux]

Yes, check with your ins agent, I'm sure he'll just tell you to install it to manufacturers instructions. Out in the hinterlands things are different than back East.
Somethings you need an expert for some you don't. Too often I have found the "experts" know less than you do if you just read up on it.
Woodstove installation is strictly low tech. It's only about clearances (can you read a ruler) and materials (can you read a label) and directions (can you read above a 5th grade level).
The hardest part is installing the chimney. That may require some roof work.
But read up, it isn't half as satisfying to pay for having it installed as doing it yourself.
Maybe other parts of the country should hand over responsibility for building, maintaining a home to the home owner rather than forcing them to use "experts". But I suppose some folks like to live with lots of codes, restrictions etc., that;s why they're in the cities/suburbs.
I don't know how long you've been here in MO, but generally insurance companies here (know your agent?) expect that you are perfectly capable of doing simple things yourself and do not force you to hire thigs out. Here you can build you own home, not have a single inspection or permit (none required by my county) and have no problem with ins. Hope it's the same for you. It'll save you money. HOWEVER, if you do have an "expert" install it, THEN be sure to have someone (maybe from the fire dept? building inspector?) inspect it.
I vote find an Amish guy to do it, they are the REAL: experts on woodstoves.

[cubcadet]

I agree the most important thing is the chimney/ exhaust issue. I would go with a well known stove like Vermont Castings, and stay away from foreign built ones, all except Jotul. They have got to make the best ones. Quite spendy tho. Airtights are a real plus. Keep up on creosote buildup, especially in your pipes. Burn well seasoned, DRY and WARM wood. So many people overlook this. Frozen wood, even though it is well seasoned, is sometimes is just as exasperating as green. Try and keep 2 days of wood warm.

[FZRaven]

I agree the most important thing is the chimney/ exhaust issue. I would go with a well known stove like Vermont Castings, and stay away from foreign built ones, all except Jotul. They have got to make the best ones. Quite spendy tho. Airtights are a real plus. Keep up on creosote buildup, especially in your pipes. Burn well seasoned, DRY and WARM wood. So many people overlook this. Frozen wood, even though it is well seasoned, is sometimes is just as exasperating as green. Try and keep 2 days of wood warm.
Yay Vermont Castings, I worked for them for 5 years. Started in blasting (blasting is horrible) worked up to the finishing department.

Vermont castings makes a good stove, I know I have one. That's the perks of working for them, half price stove.

In the shop I run a Oak stove, I've always loved the looks of the Oaks.

Starting and tending a wood stove is not to hard, you'll figure it out pretty quick. I'd say the hardest part of running a wood stove is getting the airflow just right. Adjusting the damper and air intake on the stove is kind of an art. A small hot fire is best, this will burn the volatile gases faster causing less safety issue's and air quality problems.

I still have fond memories of sitting out in the woodshop with my grandfather. Cooking steak, onion and potatoes and don't forget the Worcestershire on the old wood stove.

[Mamsy]

We had a Fisher stove, the Grandad biggie), a beautiful stove, but it took so much wood to heat the house. My husband bought a Quadra-Fire. It's a convection type wood burning stove with pipes in it that re burn the gases. The combustible materials do not go up the chimney. The Fisher stoves are not legal here anymore. They can't be sold here. Probably if a person has one already it's ok. We burn at least 30% less wood than we used to, and the Quadra-Fire produces more heat. They probably cost more now though.

[cubcadet]

My basement stove is a Timberline converted insert. The air jacket is quite useful in my house, as, I have a forced air system. The smoke pipe that is missing in the photo has been repaired. This system is homemade and isn`t perfect. It is good for me, though.

http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp2/cubcadet1/000_0639.jpg

[farmmilkmama]

Good information. We just recently got a woodstove here again. Good idea about drying the clothes near it...didn't think of that one! Also, a big yes to making sure EVERYONE in the house knows how to use it. My parents and my family share a home and when the woodstove got put in a couple weeks ago, everyone got their little lesson on "how it runs" and "what to do if..." We're lovin the wood heat. Beats buying fuel oil, especially with all the access we have to wood.

[mtdrtbag]

I only burn wood for heating. We have electric backup but it is never turned on unless we are going to be gone over night. Currently we are using an Earth Stove that reburns combustion gasses. With good fir, larch or lodge pole pine I can get about 9 to 10 hours of heat when fully loaded. 2100 is a just a bit spendy for a stove. I have seen some of them and they are nice, but I am not convinced they are worth the extra money. Make sure that you find a stove with a fire brick liner and a good damper system. If you buy a used stove check the door gasket to make sure it has a tight seal. Most stove dealers and hardware stores carry the gasket rope and adhesive for replacement if needed. I try to stay away from cast iron due to the cracking and stay with welded steel stoves. Some of the better stoves I have owned are Earth Stoves, Traegers, and Timberlines.

[Anon001]

I have to say that I have used cast iron stoves for many years without any problems such as cracking. I think you have to know how to properly care for it and how to burn your fires to keep it from cracking. As to the door gaskets, I usually replace mine each year.

By the way, I prefer Ashley stoves if you can still find one...
Paul

[CatherineID]

When we moved into our house we had an electric forced air furnace - ouch! It was expensive. I guess the previous homeowners couldn't figure out how to vent the thing. We did, though, and since we have gas lines in the street up to the property line, the gas company installed a line to the house for free. *:D

But I'm going to guess you don't even have vents. From the sound of it, you have electric baseboards. What was the propane system? Do you have one or is that just an option? Also, are you planning on going off-grid?

Our house actually has three different heating systems - gas forced air furnace, electric baseboards, and three different wood stoves. The house is two levels and 3500 sq ft so three stoves evens things out. That is something to consider. I'd rather have two small stoves instead of one huge one. And I'd also rather have more than one heating system in case one can't be used or becomes too expensive.

We're planning on removing the electric baseboards and converting their dedicated circuits to powering a radiant floor heating system. We're doing this zone by zone as we switch out the flooring. This is the best system for people with allergies and asthma - as everyone in our family does.

Our little woodstove in the kitchen is the one that gets used the most. It is quick, easy, and it is a small cook stove, too. It also makes the main living areas the most comfy. We have laminate floors which are remarkably fire-proof (tested the material with a blow torch.)

DO check into other types of heating sources. For instance, with your weather you might consider a heat pump which will help warm the house in the winter and cool it in the summer. Again, this could be something you do for only part of the house if you want to save on ducting.

Also find out from your electricity company if they offer variable rates. My BIL lives in WY where the cost of electricity drops significantly in the evening. One of his heating systems is an electric radiator. It is a flat panel that is installed on a main interior wall of the house. The panel is filled with the same stuff that is the heat shield tiles on the space shuttle. During the night when power rates are lowest, the electricity comes on and heats up the heat shield tiles inside the panel then during the day they radiate the heat all through the house. The only time he has trouble with the system is during the shoulder seasons when the weather is a little unpredicatable. You have to know the night before if it is going to be unseasonably cold or warm the next day.

Alternately, since you're going to be remodelling your porch, you might consider a solar system using panels and hot water. What if you installed big water-filled thermal mass cylindars in the porch with a solar system to heat them? Not only would the thermal mass heat part of your house, but you could use the heated water in a radiant floor system. We used to live in a house that used this concept but the water was heated or cooled by the heat pump.

Lastly, keep in mind that there are high-efficiency wood burning furnaces. They cost more but burn so little wood for the amount of heat they generate they really are worth considering. They're much easier to run, too.

As for finding a good wood stove supplier, this is where asking around is going to pay off. DO ask your insurance agent plus a lot of your neighbors who they'd recommend. They know the good guys.

[huckelberry]

i heated a 20x24 cabin in alaska with nothin more complicated than a barrel stove,til i got tired of replacring burned out barrels,tried a stanley waterford wood cook stove,great for cookin,but would not hold a fire evernight,sold that an got a 700.00 home depot model,had a fan,worked great...an about all that could go wrong is the fire brick an thats easy to replace.any how,i think your bullshit meter is in fine shape...huck

[fnfredux]

I thoughty I'd just jump in quick as I thought of this as I saw the long run of almost horizontal pipe with the turns, I know it's for air, but it reminded me of a few things.
First and foremost always keep your chimney CLEAN.
You can check for ash/creosote build-up by slapping the chimney smartly, if you hear something rattle BE CAREFUL, clean it if you can.
NEVER and I mean NEVER cook inside an air tight wood stove, like DON'T roast weenies or broil a steak. EVER.
Only burn hardwoods.
no matter how careful you are or how veritcal you chimney, you can still have a CHIMNEY FIRE, pretty damnned scarey, especially when it wakes you up in the middle of the night.
We had ONE. Don't know why, just because I guess.
Luckily I had read how to deal with it, and we had no glass on the stove, a Jotul. The secret is to shut off all air dampers closed etc. AND wet a HEAVY blanket or two and wrap the stove. They will stop all air infiltration and stop the smoke blowing back. It put the fire out in about 2 minutes. Make sure you use insulated pipe, triple wall is best, throughout your house and three feet at least beyond your roof.

[bassntrout]

Hi jgelt,

The woodstove is a good choice for you especially since you have the all important wood lot. The stove is a one time investment, the wood supply is critical.

We love our wood stove-- our property and nature, provide us with the fuel.

Here are two good resources for you:
www.woodheat.org
http://divorceddadfrugaldad.com/2008/11/13/firewood-posts-revisited.aspx