Buying land... Questions to ask.

[Sailortom]

Greetings all! What a great forum.

My fiancee and I are just getting serious about buying a parcel of land that we would homestead in steps. Shed (to live in) then cabin, animals small farm etc...

We're already in a good debt/income situation and are currently practicing self-sufficiency as we live on our sailboat. (even a small cabin would be a PALACE! ;D )

First and most importantly we need the land. We're both reforming city folk from the Seattle area (though we've lived all over) and we're looking at areas around the Port Townsend area, Whidbey island and Bellingham areas. Preferably within 30min drive of one of the towns.

What we're looking for:

Absolute minimum of 2 acres but I think 5-10 is more of the goal. Densely wooded/forested, with a view of water or mountains and NO view of neighbors (we look forward to making great friends with our neighbors, but we like our privacy). Non-city water. Available electricity if we so choose, or future availability. Also of importance is no covenants that will not allow us to have animals, dictate too much about what we can build, or not allow me to build a modest outdoor shooting range.

My question to y'all is a broad one; what are your tips and suggestions for finding good land in these areas?

I've emailed a couple agents and done some internet searching but most internet searches come up with very little. Is there a good site for searching land of this type?

What are some of the things I need to consider and questions to ask before I buy? Are there things I need to know about septic, soil perk, well availability, building codes, mineral rights etc?

Post me your tips and hopefully we'll be able to avoid the LAND-mines and find something that we can enjoy. Meanwhile I continue to read anthologies, and now that I'm on the board, previous threads.

Thanks in advance!
Sailortom

[Terri]

I like www.unitedcountry.com to find affordable land. Once you find land that you like, you will know that that is an area to check out. Youshould not buy land on-line, but you can find what areas are affordable that way.

Ask about the zoning. It would be bad to find out AFTER you bought the land that you would not be allowed to use it as you had thought to! Animals, the size of the house, etc etc might be affected.

Most places will allow the property owner to "camp out" while the house is being built. Perhaps that could be used to get around the need to have a livable house when you move in.

Lastly, never buy land that you have not seen. One parcel that was advertized as having 2 small ponds in reality had 2 marshy areas that caught the road run-off. And, they stank. Drainage ditches, not ponds!!!!!!!!!!

You can find the current taxes at the county courthouse. Most counties have zoning information available on-line, as well as any animal control regulations. And, the secretary who answers the phone can tell you who to ask about building information.

Lastly, do no volenteer more information than is needed. Many years ago my parents asked for a building permit to put a second kitchen into the old family room in his home, so that their daughter could move in with him after her divorce. It is a huge house, there is room!

It was denied because it was zoned for single-family. His daughter could move in, no problem, but no second kitchen!

So, he changed the title to "Wet bar", but did not have to change the plans. It was complete with sink and tiny fridge and little stove. There was even a dishwasher there to wash the "bar glasses".

They smiled, told him to enjoy the new wet bar, and granted it. Same plans and a different name. My Father thanked them and DID NOT tell them that my sister would be cooking in the wet bar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sailortom]

See that's exactly what I'm worried about. Thanks for your reply.

What I want is some land without too many regulations to tell me what to do on it. I have no plans to do anything on the land that would hurt anyone else or myself but I know that the rules don't stop there.

I'll look into zoning for sure! Thanks for the tip!


Any suggestions on how to tromp around 5 acres or so and see if it would be a good site?

Sailortom

[Terri]

What are you interested in? If you are looking to sell firewood, a stand of hardwood is desired. If you want to cut hay, good flat ground is needed.

A realtor will take you out, and they MIGHT walk the corners with you. They will know the zoning. They MIGHT know who gives loans on bare land: many chain banks will not but the local ones often do.

Check for liens, which are right-of-ways for water companies and such. The secretary at the court house can tell you who to talk to.

You will need food, shelter, heat, water, and money for taxes and aspirin, tools, and such. Shelter can be built and food can be raised. Water can be city water or well water. Heat can be from your own trees, if you choose.

As for the rest of it, you are limited only by your ingenuity. You can raise meat on just a few square feet with rabbits, or if you raise beef you will need a few acres. A dairy goat will live in the corner of a 12 foot by 12 food barn, or you can use a couple of acres to graze a holstein. You can put a tiller in the garage, or you can have a team of work horses with a large amount of hay and grain storage.

Everyones homestead is different, with different operations and a different size.

[tomato204]

"Easements" are rights-of-way for utilities or roads and such. "Liens" are money owed to banks etc. Don't buy property with any liens, easements need a good hard look but might be to your advantage.

[Terri]

I stand corrected! ;D

[kawalekm]

When we were shopping for our land I searched quite a bit on the internet for properties in the areas I was interested in. After actually visiting a few properties I realized the reason they were being sold on the internet was because they were junk properties that could be sold any other way. What is junk to me? So steep you can't stand straight, dry as a bone without any hope of water, so rocky you can't actually see the ground, or without legal access and hostile neighbors. So same goes for public auctions.

I found a great book at the public library called "The Atlas of California". It was full of full color maps of just about any demographic you could think of. We matched up areas of forest, with low population density, and high rainfall, and selected individual areas to look in.

We wrote a cover letter outlining what we wanted (and what we didn't want) and shotgunned that out to realtors in those general areas. The realtors we actually directly contacted didn't have experience with those kinds of properties, but we got referred to agricultural realtors that did. Finally, we were able to hit the ground and walk on properties that we seriously considered buying.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/kawalekm/MichaelsLibertyApple.jpg
We selected our 40 acre property in 2003 and have been slowly developing it into our dream homestead. It has legal access off a county road, is completely fenced, has a deep water well, it's legal to shot and hunt on the property, and we're finishing a cabin that was started by the previous owner. We're planting an orchard now and will be putting in a garden to meet all our vegetable needs. Animals will come later.

You can make it work too!
Michael

[Anon001]

Sailortom,

I think you need to first decide what you want as far as homesteading goes. Are you long term goals along the lines self-sufficiency, or are your long term goals more along the lines of hobby farming? I will say that it is very difficult to be self-sufficient on 5 to 10 acres and impossible on 2 acres. I would suggest defining your long term goals and finding the land to meet those needs. I am self-sufficient as far as not working off the farm. I have a very good income and could live much more "comfortable" (as my friends putit), but I am as comfortable as anyone.

Another suggestion is to talk to your neighbors on all sides! Find out what kind of people they are before you buy. They may not always be there, but what if they are there for the next 20 years and have late night parties, etc. On 2 acres. you WILL hear the music and the noise.

To be self-sufficient, you have to have diversity. You won't be able to be diverse on a place that is all timber. Even a garden will rarely grow well in shade in some places.

Another thing to remember.... the realtor works FOR THE SELLER not the buyer. So, be able and ready to confirm anything the realtor tells you.... unless YOU HIRE a realtor that is working for you. Most people call realtors and think they are being treated so great when the realtor isn't working for them but will make you feel special so they can sell their client's property as quickly for as much money as possible and to heck with you....lol

Also go to the county courthouses. Check the records and see for yourself what liens, easements, and rights-of-way exist. While at the courthouse, you can find out about previous perk tests, mineral rights, drilling rights, last surveys, etc. Another serious problem people often run into is property line squabbles..... Ask the realtor....in most states, they are required to inform you of such things is they exist.
You can find out a lot of information about your prospective property from the courthouse. Find out about the taxes also. While at the court house, visit the county extension agent. He/she can tell you what your place can and cannot support in gardens, livestock, etc. A courthouse is a valuable tool.

As a note about being debt free. Try to stay debt free. I am on 160 acres. Calves paid for it in less than 10 years. If I had a 30 year amortization, I would have paid 3 times what some one else paid cash for. Then save that to buy "up". By paying this off so soon and still having the income from the calves, goats, bees, chickens, etc, I paid cash f.or another 40 acres this summer. This 160 I have was bought in 1997. It was paid off in 2006. I had the income from the farm to pocket until this last 40.

What made it possible for me was starting with a small solar system and wood heat. I use less than 250 gallons of propane per year for cooking, heating water and the refrigerator. I also catch rainwater. Other than that I have no utilities. So, those that spend 300, 400, 500 per month on utilities and groceries is like money in the bank for me.

So....it can be done but start NOW.... and do your homework at the courthouse and visit with the neighbors. You can learn a lot.

Good luck,
Paul

[Clair_Schwan]

Without repeating some of the good advice above, I'll add four points.

First, you need to figure out where your land is, and then see if others are using it.

It's called "adverse possession", and it means that someone else has fenced in and is using someone else's land. If that stays unchallenged for many years, legally, the land belongs to the neighbor that fenced it in and is making good use of it.

This is common here in Wyoming, where they fence in land that is easy to fence in, even if it isn't there own. If you buy land and then try to get the fence moved, you might find that the land didn't belong to the seller in the first place, and so it isn't your land either.

The legal idea behind this is that land is an asset and it needs to be used as such. If someone else puts the asset to good use and is never challenged, then the owner gives up the right to the land.

Second, make certain you have access to a public road either by an easement running through your land for the public road, or an easement running through your neighbor's land (or public land).

Third, check to see where the school bus runs. This is where the county will plow snow. When you talk to the neighbors, bring up the topic of snow if you're going to be in the snow country.

Fourth, to contact your neighbors, use the Internet and search the county for owners of record on the tax assessment portion of the website. Send them a letter and ask them to give you a call. It's worth your time to chat with those who know.

Also, stop in if you see someone home and strike up a conversation. It's amazing the things you learn when you seek out information from the locals.

Last comment - you are wise to avoid homeowners associations with covenants, but be aware that there may also be road maintenance associations. They are the same thing - a bunch of people that want to create their own tiny form of government to tell other people what to do.

Road maintenance associations often morph into homeowners associations, so avoid any variation of these if you can.

Clair

[WRTN]

PaulNKS pretty well nailed it!

I live on a very large acreage and still hear music and noise.

I STRONGLY recommend buying title insurance. It costs more and is worth EVERY penny should a issue with the title arise latter on and it will identify all encumberances such as easments, right of ways, mineral rights, timber rights, etc.

A trip to the courthouse and going to the register of deeds can afford you previous deeds to review. I suggest you got back as far as possible. Many old tracts of land had mineral rights reserved back in the early part of the last century.

Depending upon the size and difficulty of the land it may be worth while to have a surveyor remark the corners of the property if straight borders or at least mark all points of direction change on the property line. A new survey is nice but they usually cause more problems than they fix.

On the issue of adverse posession, the rules vary from state to state but in Tennessee the time limit is 20 years or having fenced in the property for 7 years while openly, and provocatively taking posession of the land. If you post no trespassing signs along the property line. NO adverse posession.

[Mike]

Sailortom,


Another thing to remember.... the realtor works FOR THE SELLER not the buyer. *So, be able and ready to confirm anything the realtor tells you.... *unless YOU HIRE a realtor that is working for you. *Most people call realtors and think they are being treated so great when the realtor isn't working for them but will make you feel special so they can sell their client's property as quickly for as much money as possible and to heck with you....lol

Paul

This is only mostly true. If you were to call a realtor and ask him/her to find you property, then they work for you. Just be sure that it isn't one of the realtor's properties.

So when you call a realty office, tell them you want a "buyers agent". They are free and will do a lot of the footwork for you (assuming they aren't lazy). They get money from the "sellers agent" when a sale is made.


Quick example: My wife and I were looking for a house in western NC. After going batty looking in the paper and online we finally called an agent. She was outstanding. She showed us a few houses one Saturday afternoon and by the end of the day she knew exactly what we were looking for, and only showed us houses that matched what we wanted from then on. We ended up moving to Ohio, but you get the point of the story.

[alwaysacowboy]

I noticed you wanted a shooting range. Check your state laws.
In New York State it is illegal to discharge a firearm within 500 ft of a dwelling unless you have the owner's permission. We have thirty acres, but our narrow dimension is 880', which means a neighbor could prevent us from shooting on a large section of our property, depending on where their house was.
Art

[flatwater]

I'm familar with the area your looking at but you want to be only 30 minutes away from some sort of town ? For the privacy your wanting in that area you probably have to go out a lot further , especially to get a decent price.
Flatwater

[livinlite]

Quilcene and Brinnon have pretty cheap land and are within that distance from Port Townsend...depends what you want...and what your idea of cheap is. Might be able to find more farmish/cleared land in Chimacum.

Since you have a boat, why not go there and live on the boat for a while and see if you can find something locally for sale vs. on the net?

Have you thought about the Anacortes area too?

[Sailortom]

Quilcene and Brinnon have pretty cheap land and are within that distance from Port Townsend...depends what you want...and what your idea of cheap is. *Might be able to find more farmish/cleared land in Chimacum.

Since you have a boat, why not go there and live on the boat for a while and see if you can find something locally for sale vs. on the net?

Have you thought about the Anacortes area too?

Interesting idea. We might just do that. Any tips on how to find the land for sale while local besides just driving around looking for for sale signs?


Today I looked at my first plot. 5 acres in the center of Whidbey island. Not really where I want to live but was in the mood for a drive and it was close. Nice land, lots of huge cedars, but totally flat and I realized that without some elevation or a view I felt trapped.

A saw the neighbor in the yard and introduced myself. I learned a LOT from him. Apparently the county thought that some swampy puddle that occurred when it rained a few years ago was a wetland. Bad news...

The search has officially begun!

[stonecypher]

I've been lurking because I don't have anything profound to add to the excellent advice given by the members of this forum, but I just had to add that you can get advice from realtors in the area you're interested in by going to:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/

Try both the Washington State forum and the real estate forum on this site. Use the Search This Forum for Whidbey Island, Bellingham, etc. (Hope it's okay to post this...)

P.S. I lived in Bellingham for ten years and believe me, you aren't going to find what you're looking for there unless you can prove you came over on the Mayflower. ;D

[eeyore]

I use these to find out about areas i'm not familiar with, hope it helps someone. Not so great for real rural land, but may help some

http://www.city-data.com Mapping satilite views

http://earth.google.com/

http://www.epodunk.com city info

http://www.cityrating.com/crimestatistics.asp

http://zipskinny.com

http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/ Rate your state gun control

ttp://www.bankrate.com/yho/itax/state/state_tax_home.asp?caret=2

http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/WebSoilSurvey.aspx soil survey