How to clear up a spring

[Rick]

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone had any experience with, or resources about, cleaning up a spring.

What I have is a muddy spring that drains towards a small lake, leaving a muddy mess in an area I naturally cross over. My thinking is to put in a piece of concrete culvert standing up, maybe with an overflow hole in the side over the spring itself, and also to bury a culvert in the path leading to the lake (hopefully drying up that area).

Ultimately, I plan to build a small spring-house over the spring, for refrigeration and to protect the water source.

Any advise would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Rick

[NCLee]

Rick, it's kinda hard to say without seeing the situation. Is the water in the spring muddy, or is it just the surrounding area is clay soil?

Generally, what you described, as far as inserting a pipe into the spring, is what's done around here. Dig out the spring, insert pipe. Backfill with gravel up to the water level. Finish backfilling with clay, then sod, sloping the surface away from the spring. (That's without a spring house.)

The problem with the path, may or may not work, as you've described. If the area is marshy, the culvert pipe will only take out the water produced by the spring. I'm assuming that you're planning to pipe the water from the spring to beyond where you want the path.

You may need to install a French drain that's large enough to carry the spring water, drainage, and the overflow from rainy weather and snow melt, if that happens where you live.

Can you post some pictures? Seeing the spring and the lay of the land would be helpful in coming up with a good solution.

Just 2-cents for now.

Lee

[Rick]

Thanks for the reply. Piping the excess water away is exactly what I have in mind. I want to keep a pool of water available for drinking water until I get a well drilled, and as a backup water supply, and to cool the spring-house.

The spring is in Tennessee and unfortunately I am in Georgia. Actually, I am jumping the gun a wee bit anyway as I don't have the land yet (waiting on a loan approval with much anticipation). We submitted a counter-offer to the original asking price and it was accepted, so now we are going through the process to purchase the land; basically, it is under contract contingent upon us getting the financing.

God willing, we'll get the land; it is a very pretty piece. My first project is to improve the spring and dry up that area w/o compromising the spring feeding the lake.

Next is to plant a small orchard; then introduce some (sterile) grass carp into the lake to clean out some of the weeds. I need to identify exactly what type of weeds are involved in order to know if the carp will eat that type of aquatic weed. I don't want to lose all of the natural vegetation, but it is presently about 60% overgrown with some kind of floating vegetation (I think it may be duckweed, but am not sure yet). My goal is to introduce enough triploid carp to clean it up, but still keep about 10% coverage in natural vegetation naturally balanced. I don't want to use any chemical herbicides, if I can avoid it.

Sorry about hijacking my own thread.

:)

[Rick]

It just occurred to me that this topic should probably be in the Water and Self-Reliant board. If an admin would like to move it, that's fine with me; or leave it here, also fine.

Thanks,
Rick

[NCLee]

Rick, congratulations on your new place. Hope all goes well and no hitches come up before you close. Just said a prayer for you that all well be well, if the Lord's willing.

Floating vegetation on a pond could be lilies. It's good that you are going ahead and researching the possibilities and options. The Tenn extension service should be a big help with identifiying what you have and how to deal with it. If memory serves duckweed is a very small plant.

BTW, depending on what you have growing in the pond, 60% coverage, may not be too much for a good wildlife habitat. May be some big bass hidding under that growth. :wink: I'm just speculating, based on some of the natural waterways that we have around here. Saw a beautiful spot the other day that reminded me of far eastern NC. Probably 80% was covered with lilies that were beginning to bloom. Looked like a prime fishing area using a flat bottom boat.

Just some thoughts and to wish you luck in your new adventure.

Lee

[patience]

The traditional springhouse around here has a masonry tank with a gravel bottom, usually, and an overflow. The building is built over that. You might save doing double work by just putting in the bottom part to start with, along with the overflow culvert you want.

Whatever you build for conaining the water needs to be big enough for access to clean it out. Inevitably, something gets in there to foul up the water--leaves, twigs, dead mice, and mud. so arrange things to make that possible and convenient. Saves a lot of cussing later. ;)

[AlchemyAcres]

I agree, it's impossible to give good advice without knowing more about the spring.
Pics are nice, but nothing beats assessing it first hand.

I've capped many springs, and, of course, they're all different.

I'd take into consideration the grade and lay of the land with the idea of protecting the spring from surface water.

The type of spring, it it a single vertical vein or multiple veins? Multiple vein springs that seep on top of clay and travel for a distance on the surface of the clay require special attention.....etc. etc. etc.

Regardless of the type of spring, I'd definitely put a screen over it to protect it from critters falling in and contaminating it.

There are lots of things to consider.



~Martin

[Rick]

Thanks for all the good advise. I am on pins and needles waiting to see if we qualify for the loan.

If we get it, I will post some detailed pics. My lifelong goal has been to have a small self-sufficient farm, if not at this place, then another. God willing. I don't post here a lot, but I glean much information here about self-sufficient living; thanks to you all. Right now, my farming is pretty tame: 11 laying hens, 3 ducks and a small garden consisting of tomatoes, peppers, carrots and radishes; but when I get out onto some more land, I plan on really hitting you people up for some detailed information.

One question, many spring houses seem to have very low ceilings; I had envisioned something a little taller, perhaps 72". Is there a reason for having the low ceiling? I was planning on building it on a poured foundation using a drystack method and insulating the walls and roof. The total square feet would be about 8' x 6', maybe a tad bit smaller.

[NCLee]

The smaller the space, the more efficient the cooling effect of the water will be.

Lee

[Rick]

Well, those prayers sure were working.

Here's what Rick is feeling inside.

:D

The property is 40 acres: 15 wooded, 25 pasture and lake. I'll start a new thread when I get some pictures uploaded (and figure out how to post them)

[sissy]

Congrats!!! Look forward to watching your post about the new homestead.
sissy

[Anon001]

Hey... congrats!

Just one more thought. Without seeing the spring,.. it could possibly be much cheaper to harness the spring instead of drilling a well. Have you priced the cost of a well, plus the casing, pump, pressure tank, etc....?

One family about 3 miles from me were able to run pipe over 1/4 mile to the house than it was to drill one well, not including the cost of a pump and other such items. Is the spring uphill? Even if it's not, it may be cheaper to run a solar pump with pressure tank and storage tank at the house.

Paul

[patience]

Great! Glad you got the place. Now the fun begins. :D

+1 on the spring for water supply, and gravity flow, too, if that is possible. Lots of old folks understood the value of having gravity flow water. Carrying water was one relentless chore they could get rid of, and went to great lengths to do so.

[Rick]

http://i818.photobucket.com/albums/zz108/RM45LC/100_0720.jpg

Here is the spring meadering towards the lake. This is the area i want to dry up, while still allowing the water to get to the lake (after filling a small cistern at the source)




http://i818.photobucket.com/albums/zz108/RM45LC/100_0719.jpg

Here is the source of the spring. The picture didn't turn out that well. This is a very minor portion of the lakes supply. The main spring is a ways off.

My thinking is to dig a big hole, sink a concrete culvert about the size of a 55 gal drum, with an overflow pipe attached. Set teh whole thing up on blocks and fill 1/4 the way up with gravel. Attach a pipe to allow the spring to continue on to the lake and overfill the pipe with gravel and dirt to allow driving a tractor or truck over it (if need be).

I have no idea if this is a feasible idea or not. As Ross Perot would say "A'hm all ears"

:D

[CountryGuy]

I'd think you might want to dig a test hole and check the flow rate to confirm the spring will be able to supply you enough water for a days needs.

On the drainage my folks had all kinds of springs behind the house and we ended up doing a french drain field. We buried a new concrete septic tank to serve as a cistern to run the field into. The overfloe was buried down thru the front yard and into the culvert at the road.
Obviously the drains also pull in surface runoff but we just used the water for the garden, washing the vehicle or to get water to flush the toilet if the power was out. We then built a 1 1/2 car garage over it and Dad made sure it was placed in such a way that the tank access cover was in the back corner. Then we could dip out. A few years ago they added a pump and pressure tank.

The drain field works as far as drying out the area other than in the wetest part of the season. And the springs produce enough water to produce even a small drip from the overflow during the dryest part of the year. Make sure you watch the slope in your ditches and put about 2" in the bottom of the ditch before you lay the pipe. I'd suggest to cover it with 2 to 3 times the amount of your pipe diameter. ex. 4" inch drain gets 8-12" of cover stone. I'd also suggest to cover the stone with geo cloth before backfilling with dirt to keep all the fines from washing down into your stones and drain. Back 25 yrs ago when we did it Dad had us use 2 layers of newspaper for the barrier instead of geocloth. Don't know but it seemed to serve the purpose.

Agree with the smaller spring house being more efficient to cool and like you said insulate it well. Consider building it so as to give yourself as much useable space as possible in it. Not like a lot of the ones I've seen where they center the spring house over the well.

Using the concrete culvert is excellent. plus you can dig deeper to set in some culvert rings, fill with gravel, them top with a manhole bell. This would give you a deeper reserve and let you secure access into the water. Don't want a mouse or chipmun falling in there. Plus at some point you can add a pump and pressure tank, run a roll of plastic water pipe to the house and poof running water. Run an overflow drain of elephant pipe to the pond depending on how much slope you have to work with.

Sorry I got lengthy and Congrats again on your new adventure.

[AlchemyAcres]

The first step I'd take before making a sizable investment is monitor the spring for a good length of time (preferably at least a couple years) to be sure that it flows all the time, especially in the dry season, of course.

There are many springs in this area that are only seasonal.


~Martin

[NCLee]

Rick, again long distance speculating. Without seeing the rest of the layout of the land (slopes, distances, etc.) these are just 2 cents, that may not be worth that much.

First, the second picture looks like the source of many of the springs around here. That is if it's nestled at the base of a large hill. Looks like, from here, it has good potential for development. Meaning in terms of capturing the flow and nestling a spring house into the hill. If I'm "reading" this correctly you can put in an earth sheltered springhouse which will greatly increase the insulation value.

Agree, with Martin about monitoring the flow. We have one spot here that flows during wet weather. During wet weather it looks similar to what's in the first picture. However, during times of drough, we routinely drive over it with a mower to keep the grass cut.

Now to the first picture. As best I can tell, that looks like marshland. Meaning the water table is just below the surface, over the area, and surfaces at the spring branch. If that's the case, it's going to be expensive to control the water. (Again, this is where seeing the lay of the land is important. How big is the area that I'm calling marsh land? How much slope on either side, etc.)

Depending on how wide the area is that you want to cross, it may be more cost effective to build a bridge instead. Can't tell from the pix if we're talking about 20' or 120' to get from one side to the other.

Personal opinion coming up! :)

The first thing I'd do is simply clean out the spring. Clear the brush and dig until you hit the vein, leaving a bowl shaped area. Maybe line with rocks, if erosion is a problem. Do it much like the way it was done in the old days. Depending on the size of the hole you make, cover the spring with a #10 washtub, 55 gallon drum cut in half, etc. Without blocking the outlet of the spring. This is simply to keep animals and debris out of the spring.

After the water clears from this step, get the water tested. Let the test results determine how much more development capital (money & labor) that you put into the spring. If memory serves you're planning to dig a well. Will development of the spring seriously cut into you funds for the well?

If the water tests OK for drinking, simply maintain the spring (that's the reason for lining with rocks) until you actually move there. You'll have access to drinking water when you visit the property. And, you'll have the opportunity to watch the seasonal flow of the spring.

Here a section of our back 40 looks just like picture #1, due to the recent rains. Have to have boots to walk across it today. If this year is like most, in July & August we mow the whole area. The water table is about 18" down. During wet weather the area is saturated. During dry weather have to dig that far to hit water.

On one other note, ending this post. With your plans for your homestead, be sure to keep lots of flexibility in them before you move and for a while after you get there. Let the land itself "talk" to you about the best place to do xyz. And, the best way to do abc. Other than what's absolutely necessarity for you to move on the propertly, hold off on any major jobs that require time and money. That is unless you're absolutely sure that you won't have any regrets later. I promise you that will cut down on your "wish I'd done......." and "wish I hadn't done.......". We have our share of those, so speaking from experience. :wink:

Lee

[keydl]

Springs are often close to the surface so the distance to a 4 foot deep pond may be 30 feet or more. One of the ways to get the water available to a bucket is a 2 or 3 foot PVC piece of pipe slotted like a well screen. Laid rock with geotextile is good, a pump and a bag or 2 of cement to partially lock the rocks togather will reduce the labor and increase the stability. Mounding the dirt to deflect surface water and sealing the top 4 foot is nice. A mud pump is awesome for cleaning, clearing and shaping the hole.

The surface area of the springhouse and the insulation set the temperature difference between the water and the space - every place that I have been that used a springhouse for refrigeration the water temp was higher than the best generally 53-57 F. it sure beats nothing. but stuff was kept in tin tubs with an insulated lid - in the water.

For the walk way I would use rip rap rock ( about 6 in dia ) to do a french drain with geotextile under and over. No plugged coverts, no tire damage to equipment, lower price and no washouts from heavy rain.

Good Luck

[Rick]

Wow, all great advise.

The spring will be a temporary water supply, until a well gets drilled; and then a backup, or just convenient place to get a drink of water.

The spring is slightly below where the house will be, but a pump may be feasible. Without having dug it out yet, it doesn't look like it will provide enough water to supply the whole place.

I also need to put in an out house until we move up there; the nearest store is about 10 miles away (I consider that a plus).

:)

[NCLee]

Uhmmmm.....

Since the spring is below where your house will be, you have to be extra careful about contaminating the spring. Definitely with regards to the location of the outhouse.

While not the same situation, just a FWIW. When we moved here, our well is higher than the house. County code required that we put out septic tank a 100' down hill from the well.

And even with grey water whether from the house or when using an outside faucet, take into consideration both the distance and lay of the land, to figure out how to keep your spring from becoming contaminated.

We try to be extra careful here, because there's a small creek a little more than a 100' from the back of our house. While it isn't drinking water, it can be treated, and used in an emergency. Thus, we do all we can to keep from further contaminating it.

Just 2 cents, as the lay of your land may make it easy to avoid these types of problems.

Lee

[Rick]

Hi,

The marshy area is about 15 feet wide and about 50 feet from the lake. My plan is to install a temporary outhouse, maybe 200-300 feet from the spring source; it won't get a lot of use until we move in and get a septic system installed.

The place I have picked out for a well is uphill from the house site about 200 feet. I don't have any idea if it is a good place to drill, so that may change depending on what the driller advises. The neighbors well is 200 feet deep; she said her well has a lot of iron in it, but some other wells close by are clear.

The spring is downhill from the house at the bottom of a small hill.

[CountryGuy]

If you think the outhouse will only be for temporary use maybe consider either renting a port-a-potty or getting a composting toilet to use. This would help rule out any ground contamination.

[Rick]

Hi,

Just got back from the country. By temporary, I mean 5 years. The ladies had to go, so they went ... 20 miles one way to find some porcelin...oy vey. I gotta solve that issue. I'm thinking about assembling an outhouse out of T-111 pieces, digging a big hole, and actually mounting an old toilet in there; we can flush by pouring water in the bowl. I'm hoping it won't get enough use to fill up by using water to flush; the ladies will appreciate the extra familiarity of actual porcelin....the Cadillac of outhouses. We'll just be there on weekends for a few years.

The spring was considerably drier than it was last week; I still plan to dig it out and monitor it over the summer, then if it stays filled up, put in a cilvert/cistern, direct the overflow to the lake and fill in the ground between the spring and the lake.

[NCLee]

Rick, a little advice, if you don't mind. This may not be what your ladies want to hear. But, it's about a homesteading & self-reliant lifestyle. And, my 2-cents on the outhouse, too. Outhouse first.....

Build a traditional outhouse. For "creature comforts" install a commode toilet seat over the hole. Several reasons for this. First, and most important, IMHO, you want the waste in the hole to decompose as garden compost does. One of the rules of composting is that you want the material to be damp, but not flooded. If it's just damp, all the natural elements from bacteria to earthworms help break down the materials into compost. To much water and you'll drown the creatures that'll do the work for you.

The more water you dump into the hole, the larger area of soil that will be "contaminated". Since you're dealing with both a spring and a pond, you don't want either contaminated with raw human waste. If you plan to go ahead with the manual flush toilet, at least talk to the folks who'll install your septic system. Find out where they'll have to install it to keep from contaminating your 3 water sources (well, spring, pond). You'll want the outhouse in approximately the same location.

Next, you'll have an even larger odor problem, again IMHO. With a traditional outhouse you can use sawdust, lime, and other materials to help control odor. If you've ever smelled an open septic tank or open sewer line, you'll know what I mean, when I say the odor problem will be worse, if you dump lots of water into that hole.

Now, this is the hard part to discuss without coming across too negatively. And, only you know your family and how they will react to homesteading. So, please take this as a well meaning effort to help make your homestead successful.

Using an outhouse, whether full time or as a temporary measure, is just one of the less than pleasant aspects of being on a self-reliant homestead. Some others that come to mind are shoveling manure, butchering animals, tending sick animals, and even picking worms off tomato plants.

Did you drive 40 miles because you wanted to keep things pleasant for them or because they wouldn't go behind a bush and use a cat hole? Or, a 3rd possibility in that you didn't have what was needed, with you, for the cat hole process?

If the first, I respect you for making the effort for their comfort. If the 3rd, that's easy to solve on the next trip with a small shovel and a roll of TP. However, if the 2nd, that's the one I'm worried about. And, only you can answer the question about how well your ladies will adapt to a more self-sufficient lifestyle.

For whatever it's worth, I hope I'm reading far more in your post than what you intended. If that's the case, please just ignore this part of my post. However, if I'm reading it correctly, please do what you can between now and the time you move to your homestead to make them less squemish (for lack of a better word) so they can take the less pleasant aspects of homesteading in stride.

I remember seeing a teenaged girl actually gag at the sight of a tiny peace of raw meat caught in the drain stopper of the kitchen sink. About a year later she married a farmer. Suddenly she was thrust into the world of butchering hogs and chickens. I've often wondered since then, how hard it was for her to make such an abrupt transition. All outward signs were that she adapted well.

Shared that story with you, to end on a positive note and a caution. Go ahead and build your traditional outhouse. Let the ladies get used to using it on your weekend trips. It'll be easier on them to slowly adapt than to be faced with an abrupt change when you first move to your homestead.

Hope all of that makes sense. Sometimes it's far easier to verbalize thoughts while sharing a coffee break at the kitchen table, than it is at a keyboard.

Hope, also that something within this post is helpful to you, Rick.

Lee

[Rick]

Hey Lee,

That is some good advise on the traditional outhouse versus the Cadillac flush model (that was my (lame) idea). I'll probably go the more traditional route.

As to the second point, most of the time people rise to the occasion and do what has to be done; but sometimes they need to be eased into it a little. Right now we keep a dozen, or so, laying hens and a small garden, and my wife looks after most of that. I'm just here for the heavy lifting, and to look good.

:D