Permission to Use the Restroom at School

[invertedsphere]

I started the Restroom Laws Movement recently, which aims to bring an end to students asking permission to use the restroom in compulsory schools. It is abuse on the level of tyranny for the school to have and use the power to deny students to perform unquestionably necessary tasks, all while forcing them to attend whether they want to or not. There are even some schools where students are always granted permission, so long as they ask for it, which is completely ironic considering that asking permission presumes the possibility of denial.

My solution is simple: Compulsory students who ask permission to use the restroom need to organize in a non-violent, non-cooperative fashion, and simply stop asking permission altogether. I believe this will be the most effective and useful way to accomplish my goal for a few reasons. First, if students instead ask their school boards to change the rules, it would only be another way of asking permission to use the restroom. Second, if even one school's restroom rules get overturned entirely by the power of the students, students at other schools will likely catch on quickly. Third, if students overturn the restroom rules at their school, which can be relatively easy, they will likely see that they have the power to overturn other rules that are disrespectful to them. Given long enough, such a pattern could very well lead to the fall of the compulsory school system and other corrupted government systems and laws (and possibly rebuilding), as well as a lot of restructuring of society as a whole.

Below is an open letter I wrote to the students who are required by the law to attend school:

To all students required by the law to attend school:

Asking permission to use the restroom is absurd. Denying students permission to use the restroom is inhumane. Even if you never get denied, asking permission is ironic and illogical because you presume that you could be denied. Whatever the outcome, demanding students to ask permission for restroom access does not teach sound, logical reasoning. You ask permission so the faculty can maintain order, but to keep track of you they actually only need to be informed, not asked. The most effective change you can make is to stop asking permission altogether.

You are the only person who truly knows when you need to use the restroom. If you are punished for not asking permission, then the faculty is being disrespectful to the fact that your body doesn’t operate according to their agenda. The current school system is an industry designed to standardize you, but there are no standard people.

The school system has no control over you because the choice to obey is always yours. If you want to make lasting changes, though, you need to work together in large numbers. If you and only a few other people choose not to obey, the faculty will try to intimidate you and your family until you obey or get expelled while permission remains. However, if you and many other people choose not to obey, the faculty will change their ways so that the school doesn’t fall apart. Your school cannot afford to stay open without the support of many of its students because your participation represents money.

Non-violent non-cooperation is the key. No matter what anybody tells you, do not give in. Ignore them if you have to. If you are asked where you’re going, tell the truth. If you are told to stop, keep going.

Working on a simple matter, like restroom permission, will make it easy for many people to learn how to work together on bigger issues. If you want, you can destroy the school system as we know it and replace it with something you want. Education is empowerment, so if you don’t feel very empowered, something has to change, and asking for that change will not be as successful as causing it.

Respectfully Yours,
Brandon R. Farmer

[mistyriver]

You know..I think I'm good with the tyrannical policy of students having to ask permission to use the bathroom at school if they can't find time between classes. Trying to imagine every little Johnny and Suzy leaving class whenever they want to "use the bathroom" with their friends.

[cinok]

You know..I think I'm good with the tyrannical policy of students having to ask permission to use the bathroom at school if they can't find time between classes. Trying to imagine every little Johnny and Suzy leaving class whenever they want to "use the bathroom" with their friends.
I second that

[backlash]

A policy that lets the kids leave class anytime they want to use the restroom would be abused.
The teachers would find themselves with an empty classrooms and bathrooms full of partying kids.
Must be a kid that came up with that idea.

[MissouriFree]

make mine vote # 4.

[indyguy]

make my vote #5

[invertedsphere]

You know..I think I'm good with the tyrannical policy of students having to ask permission to use the bathroom at school if they can't find time between classes. Trying to imagine every little Johnny and Suzy leaving class whenever they want to "use the bathroom" with their friends.

A policy that lets the kids leave class anytime they want to use the restroom would be abused.
The teachers would find themselves with an empty classrooms and bathrooms full of partying kids.
Must be a kid that came up with that idea.

If you don't give young people trust, you'll have a hard time getting any in return. Furthermore, if schools were actually empowering their students instead of subjugating them to perform tasks for a machine, more students wouldn't be so interested in skipping class. Also, you give young people as a whole far, far too little credit: not every single student is interested in breaking rules and causing havoc, in fact, an overwhelming amount of them actually want to participate in activities that will empower them to be successful in the world. If some people act up too much, they can be kicked out, enabling the schools to better serve the students who actually want to learn something. Seriously people, we have to stop treating everyone as though they are of the lowest common denominator.

Peace,
Brandon R. Farmer

[momma_to_seven_chi]

We use to go to church where the pastor's wife was a bit controlling. She came up with a bunch of rules about leaving service and using the restroom. One day, near the end of service which was running long, I just had to go. (I take Lasix, so I can only wait so long.) Anyway from the pulpit, she asks, "has service been dismissed yet?" Ticked me off majorly, which is not a common thing for me. I'm usually kind of sweet to people, but I just got angry. I mean I was over 40, had a medical issue, and knew when I have to go empty my bladder. So I answered her, "If you like everyone can turn their heads while I pee in the corner." and pointed to the corner in back. Stone silence. My husband just shook his head, and there were a few giggles and throat clearings in the congregation. Then I turned and walked out of the sanctuary. Our relationship with that church was never the same, and we stopped going there. One of the kids is getting married there, so I'm wondering how that will go.

[Prairie]

Sometimes a person just has to excuse themselves. Many of the restroom breaks I took, I did go to the john, but it wasn't because I needed to, but I still had to 'ask' to go (more like announce where I was going). It is one of those 'get out of classroom for 5 minutes free' tickets, but if you abuse it, you're gonna lose it. We also had to ask if we could get a drink of water, but a kid never asked more than once a period, but if he did, should he not be allowed since water is a neccessity of life? What if he wants to spend the whole period there? Where do you draw the line? Is it the teacher's or administrator's place to draw the line on how often a kid can access a neccessity of life?

I took adult ed in my early 20's (one of the few who went for an eddymacation) and the policy was, 'You're an adult, excuse yourself if something is going on(presentation, speech, etc), otherwise, leave quietly and do your thing'. People were coming and going all the time, they were adults, btw. One day, I was struggling and needed to get out for a few minutes (sometimes, a person just needs to excuse himself), instead of going to the john, I went out for a smoke, I was an adult, dammit!, and there were a few people out there. Thats apparently where they go when they take their unrequested restroom break. That was people (including me) that were adults, and were trusted with an open bathroom break policy.

[Junie]

I would rather see longer breaks between classes, than students leaving class to use the bathroom or get a drink. At our public school, students only have 5 minutes between classes, which is not enough time to go to their locker for books and supplies for the next class, go to the bathroom, get a drink, and make it to their next class in time.

[AzLoneRider]

I would like a job where I can do what I want when I want and I'm not responsible to get things done or pay attention to facts and details that I need to succeed.

Please start that movement...

[MissouriFree]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fcY78ab4yo&feature=related

[momma_to_seven_chi]

"Charlie Brown" by the coasters! Love it. Nostalgic memories for sure.

[invertedsphere]

I would like a job where I can do what I want when I want and I'm not responsible to get things done or pay attention to facts and details that I need to succeed.

Please start that movement...

Such a job is a fantasy, and if you are alluding to the idea that I am suggesting that young people in school use that approach, you are mistaken. Education is necessary for a literate community able to innovate. When students are treated as though they are prisoners who obey the rules out of fear of punishment, rather than fear of what distraction they may bestow upon their fellows, it's rather difficult to view the educational environment as a source of empowerment. If students are given more respect and encouraged to take care of their bodies, we would see a general increase in productivity that outweighs whatever short-term decreases there may be. Some students will completely abuse the privilege, and they will be dealt with accordingly, perhaps expelled so they may no longer provide distraction for the rest of the students. The majority of students, however, truly do wish to succeed in life and do cherish the opportunity to learn, and they will respect the privilege because they understand that fundamental respect as a tool for their success.


I would rather see longer breaks between classes, than students leaving class to use the bathroom or get a drink. At our public school, students only have 5 minutes between classes, which is not enough time to go to their locker for books and supplies for the next class, go to the bathroom, get a drink, and make it to their next class in time.

I agree with you that longer breaks between classes would help students find more time to get a drink and use the restroom. No matter how long we make the breaks, however, it will not address the fact that every single body runs on the same strict timeline. Life is far too plentiful with variety of body types, diets, hydration necessity, etc. to expect 100% regularity in the need of any given student to use the restroom. A simple way that students could leave the classroom for the restroom while still at least giving the teacher the ability to monitor and maintain order, without asking permission, would be to have a drop box in class where the student puts a slip of identifying paper that marks the time. If problems occur, the teacher can look back over the log of people who left and came back and when, and it would be possible to narrow in on the source of the problem and make it stop.

-----------

Moderation is key. The all-or-nothing attitude of "every student will misbehave if we allow them any chance to demonstrate responsibility" is one of the best ways to teach them that that is how it is. Like begets like. If you expect misbehavior, you'll likely get it. If you foster true responsibility, instead of forcing it, the results will likely be favorable.

[backlash]

I would like a job where I can do what I want when I want and I'm not responsible to get things done or pay attention to facts and details that I need to succeed.

Sounds like a job description for Congress.

[Junie]

Invertedsphere, maybe I'm just cynical, but I don't believe you can trust kids to be responsible. I used to leave the classroom during every class, to use the bathroom. In reality, I went in there to smoke. As a matter of fact, I never actually used the bathroom at school. I would hold it from the time I left in the morning till I came home in the afternoon. Otherwise, I was a good student and considered responsible.

I have 5 teenagers and would not consider any of them responsible and always willing to do the right thing. They'll get away with anything they can get away with. It isn't that I haven't tried to teach them, I have, but it seems to be the nature of the beast.

But, I see your point. If someone needs to go, they should be able to go. Maybe each classroom could have a small board or something that a student could take when they have to leave, that would work as a bathroom pass. That way, only one student at a time would be out of any classroom, so the teachers would be able to keep track of who left and when. Then the schools would have to have bathroom monitors so the students wouldn't be in there smoking and ruining things for everyone else.

The only other solution I can think of is to have a bathroom in each classroom, like they do in preschool.

[AzLoneRider]

Such a job is a fantasy, and if you are alluding to the idea that I am suggesting that young people in school use that approach, you are mistaken. Education is necessary for a literate community able to innovate. When students are treated as though they are prisoners who obey the rules out of fear of punishment, rather than fear of what distraction they may bestow upon their fellows, it's rather difficult to view the educational environment as a source of empowerment. If students are given more respect and encouraged to take care of their bodies, we would see a general increase in productivity that outweighs whatever short-term decreases there may be. Some students will completely abuse the privilege, and they will be dealt with accordingly, perhaps expelled so they may no longer provide distraction for the rest of the students. The majority of students, however, truly do wish to succeed in life and do cherish the opportunity to learn, and they will respect the privilege because they understand that fundamental respect as a tool for their success.

I am not a proponent of public schools, or public schooling, and how they are run. There are a few things that have to be pointed out. As you said the job I put forth does not exist, it's a fantasy. So let's look in theory at what schools should do.

1. Educate children with basic knowledge: reading, writing, arithmetic and science, and possibly computer science.
2. Acclimate children about schedules.
3. Prepare children for the work place.

The majority of jobs in this country have 2 15 minute breaks a day where workers get a drink, a snack, and relieve themselves. These breaks are in addition to their lunch time. They do not create the schedules for lunch and breaks themselves it's created for them. Adult workers are told when they can stop working and most supervisors will not make exceptions to the schedule except in cases of a medical necessity.

Look at number three in the above list. Using the facilities either between classes or, in the case of grade or grammar school children asking to use the facilities, is part of preparation for the work force. A child's job is to get an education, not worry about if the teacher or those in authority respect him/her. Their job is to pay attention, study and assimilate into their brain the knowledge teachers share with them. Respect, self confidence and self worth is taught by parents at home not teachers. And the use of the bathroom by students is not some civil right that deserves non-violent non-cooperation.

[Tom]

Put my vote in the "against this crap" box. From what I understand many or most of the inner city schools and near city schools are out of control as it is. Teachers need more support and empowerment, not less... just my opinion.

[invertedsphere]

AzLoneRider,

The jobs you speak of where people only have two 15-minute breaks to drink water and use the restroom, indeed they exist, but they are not the only jobs that exist, and they are not the vast majority. The world is far bigger than you're making it out to be. Just because such jobs exist does not mean that that is "just the way it's supposed to be," as there are many jobs to choose from, so it is not necessary to get prepared for a certain set of standards that we can choose for or against anyway. Forcing children through that dance is unreasonable because the inability to choose whether or not to go to school does not equate to the ability to choose your job.

You speak as though the workforce is supposed to be a slave culture, as though employees are lowly servants compared to their god-like managers. Sadly, there are a lot of workers who feel the same way as you. Many employers make these kinds of inhumane decisions for the sake of increasing the economic efficiency of their company, but that doesn't mean that it is actually necessary, it just means it's possible. If you do a quick search on a search engine, you will find countless tails of adult employees complaining about inhumane treatment at the workplace due to a lack adequate time for the restroom, even with those two 15-minute breaks you talk about. If people would stop laying down like dogs and realize they have teeth, asserting their rights instead of asking for them, both employees and employers would better understand their boundaries and find policies that foster good physical and mental health, instead of abusing the employee like running a car on half of its oil "because we can." Just imagine how higher the morale would be in a given company, and how much higher the quality of the work would be if employees gave themselves proper respect. Would the work be more expensive? Possibly, but it wouldn't matter if so much of society wasn't so bent on cheaper-faster as a means of success.

The students should be concerned as to whether or not they are being respected by the people they are giving authority to. Would you apply to a job where your employer doesn't respect you?

[Mom5farmboys]

AzLoneRider,



The students should be concerned as to whether or not they are being respected by the people they are giving authority to. Would you apply to a job where your employer doesn't respect you?

As a parent I am more concerned that my children respect their teachers, employers, all adults.

Respect is earned, when children do what is expected of them, they will be respected. When an employee does what they are expected/hired to do they will also be respected. There will always be bosses that don't deserve respect, but I believe it is mainly because they were never taught to respect others.

[invertedsphere]

Mom5farmboys,

I agree with you that respect is earned, however, it's not a one-way street. People in positions of authority must earn respect as much as those who follow authority. Respect cannot be expected to be fully received unless it is fully given as well. Adults of any kind do not deserve respect from children simply because they are adults. Everyone deserves the respect that they give. If people's needs to use the restroom are disrespected, then people are more likely to disrespect the restroom and and the people who control the restroom. Employers do not typically hire people they don't respect or trust, and dole out respect as they earn it, rather employers typically hire people they believe they can respect and trust, giving the employee the opportunity to prove otherwise. This idea applies regardless of your age.

[Mom5farmboys]

I'm sorry but I'm not buying into it. As a parent I expect my childern to respect the adult authority figures in their lives (at home and at school) if for nothing more than as adults we have been around longer and know whats better for them than they do.

My children are potty trained and are capable of holding thier bladders until they can get to a bathroom. What happens if they are on the school bus and decide they need to use a bathroom? Is the bus driver disrespecting them if she doesn't pull over immediately so they can relieve themselves on the side of the road? Seems to me the child would be forced into a position of ASKING the bus driver to stop the bus so they could relieve themselves. Is that disrespecting the child?? What nonsense.

What you are suggesting these children do is not only disrespecting their teacher, but also the other students, because the distraction it would cause would rob them of time better spent learning something in class.

[momma_to_seven_chi]

As a parent I expect my childern to respect the adult authority figures in their lives (at home and at school) if for nothing more than as adults we have been around longer and know whats better for them than they do.



You know, I never felt that way. In fact, I didn't feel there were "adult authorities" in my children's lives unless I specifically told my child to "listen to xyz". I purposely told my children they did not have to obey anyone simply because they were an adult or a teacher.

In fact, I let my oldest go to public school for a short while. And I remember him coming home telling me about how the gym teacher got after him for not running the track. I specifically told him to ignore her and let her deal with me if she didn't like it. (he was asthmatic, and always was a wheezy kid) That was just one situation, but I could name more from church or school or even HS groups.

One time the kids were all going caroling in youth group, and my daughter was told to ride with a certain lady and her kids. She said, 'No'. And she was right. It was not a person I would ever let my child into a car with because she was very lax with her own children. I had no idea if there were drugs in that car from her teenagers. It was a family that was very liberal in their childcare responsibilities. My daughter ended up riding with the pastor's family which was fine. And later when the subject came up, I told them my daughter was following my instructions about whom she was allowed to get into a car with. The pastor's wife kind of pouted over my attitude, but so what? I was busy with the younger kids from church, and my children were precious. They knew who I would trust to drive them.

The point is, I never felt my children had to obey adults simply because they were adults unless it was someone I completely trusted in a given situation. Maybe that was why I made a better homeschool mom than a ps mom. I just don't trust people with my children willy-nilly. And I always made sure my kids knew they did not have to obey adults who were not their parents unless I specifically told them to.

Don't get me wrong, we always taught them to obey police and fireman, etc, but not all adults simply because they were adults, and not all teachers or church leaders simply because they bore that title.

[Anon001]

If people would stop laying down like dogs and realize they have teeth, asserting their rights instead of asking for them, both employees and employers would better understand their boundaries and find policies that foster good physical and mental health, instead of abusing the employee like running a car on half of its oil "because we can." Just imagine how higher the morale would be in a given company, and how much higher the quality of the work would be if employees gave themselves proper respect.

Personally speaking.....

A load of hogwash. The only right coworkers should have (besides a safe environment) is the right to find different work if they don't like the employer's rules. The problem is that too many businesses are told what they can and cannot do and have no right to do so. It should be the employer's right to run his/her business as he/she sees fit. If the employee doesn't like it, hit the pavement.

The point is, I never felt my children had to obey adults simply because they were adults unless it was someone I completely trusted in a given situation.

Obedience and respect are not the same thing.

I was always taught that you always used "sir", "ma'am", Mr..... , Mrs......

Yes, it teaches respect and also teaches manners. If a child doesn't show respect to an adult, it is rude and bad manners. However, that does not mean they have to obey that adult if it is something they know is wrong or know the parents would not agree with.

Children in school are being prepared for life. The majority of them would drop out if it wasn't for the parents and truancy laws. That's just the way they are. It is the abnormal kids that want to be sitting in classrooms all day learning.

Children being required to ask permission to leave a classroom teaches them about obeying rules and showing respect.

Teenagers in school have more control over their body than the preschoolers or the aged. They can hold it as long as they need when they want. When I was in school, 5 minutes was plenty to get books, and go to the restroom. Today... dang it takes that long just to.... well... never mind. lol

The point is that children are no longer taught to follow rules or show manners and that has caused us to become a society of entitlement believing people. It has taught them that they do not have to follow rules, show respect, or show manners.

I agree with earlier posters. This has got to be one of the most ridiculous suggestions I've ever heard. LOL

Paul

[Mom5farmboys]

M27,

My children are very seldom with any adults I don't know. If I do leave them with another adult it is someone I trust (or they wouldn't be there without me in the first place) so they need to "mind".

As far as at school, we take things on a case by case basis. Medical issues are another matter, my children have none. If there is something going on at school where an adult is mistreating my children they need to tell someone else in authority about it, preferably me, and it will be dealt with.

We did change school districts about 5 years ago because the teachers were not acting how I thought they should, but it was not my sons place to create more problems on top of it. Two wrongs don't make a right, so to speak.

What is going to happen in life when they get a difficult boss? Sometimes in life you just have to "suck it up" and get through difficult situations. The world does not revolve around them.

We have had talks about strangers, or if anyone were to try to get physical with them what to do, I am not talking about that.

The OP was suggesting children should not have to ask to use the restroom at school and should protest it, which I thought was ridiculous and disrespectful in itself.

[AzLoneRider]

AzLoneRider,

The jobs you speak of where people only have two 15-minute breaks to drink water and use the restroom, indeed they exist, but they are not the only jobs that exist, and they are not the vast majority. The world is far bigger than you're making it out to be. Just because such jobs exist does not mean that that is "just the way it's supposed to be," as there are many jobs to choose from, so it is not necessary to get prepared for a certain set of standards that we can choose for or against anyway. Forcing children through that dance is unreasonable because the inability to choose whether or not to go to school does not equate to the ability to choose your job.

You speak as though the workforce is supposed to be a slave culture, as though employees are lowly servants compared to their god-like managers. Sadly, there are a lot of workers who feel the same way as you. Many employers make these kinds of inhumane decisions for the sake of increasing the economic efficiency of their company, but that doesn't mean that it is actually necessary, it just means it's possible. If you do a quick search on a search engine, you will find countless tails of adult employees complaining about inhumane treatment at the workplace due to a lack adequate time for the restroom, even with those two 15-minute breaks you talk about. If people would stop laying down like dogs and realize they have teeth, asserting their rights instead of asking for them, both employees and employers would better understand their boundaries and find policies that foster good physical and mental health, instead of abusing the employee like running a car on half of its oil "because we can." Just imagine how higher the morale would be in a given company, and how much higher the quality of the work would be if employees gave themselves proper respect. Would the work be more expensive? Possibly, but it wouldn't matter if so much of society wasn't so bent on cheaper-faster as a means of success.

The students should be concerned as to whether or not they are being respected by the people they are giving authority to. Would you apply to a job where your employer doesn't respect you?

InvertedSphere,
I'm pretty much done with this conversation other than to say the following things.

1. Of course there are jobs that don't fit the model I gave, however I am right, the majority of jobs in this country do fit that model.

2. People receive respect until they prove they don't deserve it and even then I respect myself and will treat others accordingly.

3. If people bite the hand that feeds them, or in this case bites at an employer, they get fired.

4. If you don't like the policies and procedures of a given company then find a company with your values and leave... OR... Start your own business employ yourself and others and set your own rules.

[momma_to_seven_chi]

Paul-- I always made them be polite to everyone, but I never made them obey anyone just because they were adults or teachers or SS leaders, etc. But none of them were ever impolite to others or disrespectful of property, animals, or people.

Mom5--I understand your point. I just never was very good at giving other people the power to control my kids, even in small things. It might just be something that I personally couldn't deal with. We all have our own sacred cows, and the kids were always mine. Literally, there are probably 5 people, other than us, that I told them they had to obey in their childhood other than the police (laws). And there are fewer than those that I ever left them in the care of unless I was there too, like at church or a HS coop. Even when they went to private school for a short time, I was there in another classroom, and I always kept my daughter in my room rather than letting her go into the room with the kids her age. I did send the older ones to public school for a short while, but it was just too irritating for us to deal with, so we took them out.

This might just be my own personal "issue". We all have one, and the kids were always my Achilles heel. I always felt the need to protect them.

[Mom5farmboys]

M27- Its ok we all have our own way of raising our children. I too am protective of my kids ( I have been accused of being overprotective- but I figure thats our job as parents) and am particular about who I leave them with and my list is short as well. Actually I think our parenting styles may be more alike than different. :)

[invertedsphere]

PaulNKS, Mom5farmboys, and AzLoneRider,

Though I still disagree with several of your points, I must agree with you that employers have the right to run their business how they see fit, and if the employee doesn't like that, they need to hit the road and find employment more agreeable to their preferences. If they cannot find employment elsewhere, and their life and the lives of their family truly depend on it, they may indeed need to suck it up until they can dig themselves out of that hole.

You can't dig yourself out of that hole with compulsory school, aside from when you finally graduate or you have parents who actually think they have the time to do homeschooling or move somewhere different to find an agreeable school. Sometimes you have to pick up and move to find an agreeable job too, but there are immensely more jobs available than schools.

Compulsory education seems to be a rather useful thing, but the system is being abused and the content and rules available to the students are so poor that school is not interesting enough for many students to want to pay attention. So many people have different styles of learning (and particular subjects of interest) that cramming them into the same box to learn is virtually guaranteed to foster problems. Perhaps if there were enough schools to fulfill the demands of the students, the restroom permission issue would have never risen to be a problem, not to mention we would teach a stronger workforce.

Thanks to everyone for all of your viewpoints, I really appreciate the time and thought you have spent on this thread. It is possible that I will not be able to get to this board for a couple of days due to work, but I will continue to reply when I get back, if you leave any more posts.

Kind Regards,
Brandon

[MissouriFree]

Don't forget that what is learned in school is not just the book learning. It is also the discipline of a structured environment and respect for authority. I strongly cast my vote with the No.

[Siuslaw]

Wow. Seems like a lot of folks are thoroughly indoctrinated to support industrial school as a training for industrial life, even here on BHM, where I would expect different. The thought of more freedom actually frightens some folks!!! "If we let those KIDS run free, who knows what they might do!!!!!"

The hostility displayed towards our young people, as if they were some sort of uncontrollable livestock, seems very telling of the authoritarian attitudes of the posters. What if we treated a human like a human from the moment they are born? Rights and responsibilities are learned. Breaking a spirit through external bodily control is a recipe for more of the same. Thanks to our history of English common law, we still legally view humans under 18 as chattel with no rights.

Teenage rebellion is what happens when young people see through the oppression and illogical lies of the dominators and are strong enough to resist. It doesn't have to be that way.:D

pbt

[Not2L8]

When I first read this thread I thought it had to be some kind of joke or just someone trying to stir up trouble, but now all I can say is...
OMG
This is ridiculous!!!

This has nothing to do with education and should be under freedom/rights... OR (jmho) deleted.

There once was a time when a lot of good folks left this forum...and I can see that happening again with all the whining and crying going on and educational topics such as this..
As much as I love coming here and soaking up the knowledge, I'm thinking if this is the kind of "stuff" there is to read, maybe I should stick with a good old fashioned book...

[indyguy]

If a kid is not capable of following a few simple school rules such as asking permission to use the restroom what happens when they join the work force?

You think school has rules....... Have you seen a employers handbook lately?

What happens if the join the military? Rules will be obayed......... end of story.

For anyone who thinks their kids are/ were above the basic rules of school and asking permission to use the bathroom is silly you have raised some real prima donnas.

[Anon001]

The only reason we have problems in school is because the teachers and administrators are no longer allowed to properly discipline a child.

Not2L8, I too, thought this was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. But, keep in mind that it is under a board titled "Education".

Just because one person starts a ridiculous thread is no reason to leave a forum.

Paul

[Cil]

As I have been reading this thread sinece the beginning, I thought I could keep trap shut, but no longer.

Asking to be excused during class is the right thing to do. HELLO! What if they are having a test or quiz? Just getting up and out hte door is DISRUPTIVE! As well as disrespectful. I do understand about "emergency" trips. I flunked a history test back in HS because some moron just got and went, throwing my concentration out the door. He did not do this quietly. This bozo was known to be a schmuck [don't want Oliver to wash my mouth out.] and had zip manners and respect for anyone. He got sent to the principal for this and got in trouble.

Now get over it. Schools have rules for a reason or two. If you don't like the rule, take your kid out and homeschool.

[cinok]

When I first read this I thought we had a high school kid testing out a platform to run for class president or something like that.
I could not image students being able to come and go as they please and not be challenged.
Imagination the conference:
Parent: you are a lousy teacher my Johny is not learning anything in this school i am going to home school him.
Teacher: Hope you have a lot of toilet paper since he spends most of his time on the toilet.

[Not2L8]

The only reason we have problems in school is because the teachers and administrators are no longer allowed to properly discipline a child.

Not2L8, I too, thought this was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. But, keep in mind that it is under a board titled "Education".

Just because one person starts a ridiculous thread is no reason to leave a forum.

Paul

Paul, I'm not going anywhere.. I gain too much encouragement and knowledge here to let something as silly as this run me off. I was just venting a bit.

I agree, lack of discipline is the problem with schools. Teachers and administrators are not allowed to discipline and a lot of parents just wont do it.

I guess I'll never understand the liberal mind. Somehow they never see the long term effects of their feel good ideas.

[Siuslaw]

Uh oh, the L word. If we disagree it must be a Liberal Plot!!! :girl_wacko:The spank-happy posters and heavy-hand good-ol-days disciplinarians will never understand that American-style school is broken, wrecked, illogical, controversial, completely BROKEN AND UNFIXABLE. I would personally recommend that kids get up to leave for the restroom and NEVER COME BACK! Homeschooling and life-learning are much healthier. But hey to each his own. Kudos to the original poster for rocking the boat, some people jumped, some people fell out, and some people just yell louder. But somebody got a new idea that's going to grow......

Human rights are not a "liberal" invention. Children are humans too.
We homeschool.
-pbt-

[invertedsphere]

Hello Everyone,

I just wanted to drop a quick note here to let you all know that I am back on the computer. I was away for a few more days than I had originally anticipated. Sorry for the delay, but rest assured I will reply to your comments later today.

Thanks for your participation!
Brandon

[invertedsphere]

Clearly, the replies in this thread have generally reached the point of recycled memes.

Many of you are afraid of change, thus the future. Likewise, you are afraid of the possibility that young people, as a majority, might not actually fit the way you expect into the boxes you uphold for them. What you experienced growing up does not represent the world, just your particular perspectives. With enough force, nearly anyone will submit, but one must ask why it takes so much force to get young people to submit. Remember, young people are not a collective nation of anarchists plotting against the welfare of the adults of the planet, rather, they are people born from adults, who learn how to react to the world from the examples they are given. If it is difficult to get most young people to submit, the most likely cause is that they are being asked to do something unreasonable. Applying the scientific method to this idea would radically change how young people are dealt with as a demographic: If young people generally react poorly to what is being asked of them, the system is inefficient and needs to seek for what needs to be asked of the young people in order for them to deliver the highest level of productivity. Settling for the lowest common denominator and effectively handicapping the rest of the students cripples the entire system. We don't need more discipline, we need more observation of what we're doing to cause negative reactions and fix the problem. Yes, I know, there are times to put the foot down when a young person is being unreasonable, as is the case with anyone, but I assure you that scientific reasoning will get us much further than blind, brute force.

This will likely be my last reply on this thread, as there seems to be nothing more productive to do than leave you to think for a while on the subject.

Thanks again for your participation, I've found this whole experience to be very useful.

Kind Regards,
Brandon R. Farmer

P.S. There is one last thing I would like to share with you on this thread, as your fear of change calls to mind an article I wrote not too long ago. It is entitled "The Final Straw: Youth as the Driving Force of Change" (see next post)

[invertedsphere]

This is the article I said I would post:



Something is about to break. Much radical change is approaching on a scale rarely seen. Society’s control over young people is waring very thin as the information age continues. So much information is being made commonly accessible that authority figures are losing control over what young people are learning and doing. Without that control, the young people will take the reigns of society’s future, and one way or another they will shake the foundation of culture and act as the cause for a lot of rethinking.

In an effort to protect the integrity of the future, many rules are made specifically to control young people and get them to fulfill the goals of their elders. Compulsory education, for example, protects the future by ensuring literacy amongst the population. For a while, the compulsory education system has been necessary in order to keep literacy high across the nation, but it is becoming painfully obvious that this system is a stopgap for a much bigger problem.


The compulsory education system makes it possible for literacy rates to stay high across the nation while parents and other community members are too busy to teach or facilitate literacy themselves. Parents have so little time to ensure the integrity of their children’s future that compulsory schools are given most of the control over what their children will learn. In practice, this idea makes total sense, but if you back up and look at it again, something is going horribly wrong. Information is so accessible today that literacy can easily be independently learned to a higher standard than the compulsory education system typically has to offer. At the same time, employment and the law make it difficult for most parents to not send their children to a compulsory school. Likewise, it is difficult for them to control a lot of how the school handles their children’s education.

Schools are so powerful that it usually takes a lot of stress and bureaucracy in order for the parents to change something they don’t like about what or how their children are being taught or treated. If parents don’t want to be at the mercy of the school board for how their children’s education will unfold, then they need to pull their children out of school, but most won’t because they don’t have the time or mental stamina. Our society has managed to structure itself around compulsory education to such an extent that it would require a radical change in most parents’ lifestyles in order for them to pursue an education for their children that is alternative to the available school’s standard. We cannot ask the majority of parents to make the change, however, because to realistically try to change how most children are educated would require a massive restructuring of society itself. This restructuring is impossible to do peacefully in a reasonable amount of time at this point because our society is currently structured in such a way that the population exceeds our ability to quickly and efficiently come to agreements. The availability of information is exceeding our ability to distribute it because we cannot change society fast enough to catch up.

(continued in next post)

[invertedsphere]

Young people will not stand for this for much longer because more and more of them are waking up to the fact that their time is being wasted at school, considering what all they could have learned if they weren’t in school. For most students, compulsory education has turned into a form of subjugation. The compulsory education system promises empowerment to the youth, but it is impossible to truly empower someone by forcing them through a prescribed, mediocre, educational experience, and imposing several rules on them that are often not applicable in the “real world,” day after day, all while not giving them the choice as to whether or not they would like to participate in the system.

This way of dealing with young people is a great cause of cognitive dissonance, as the practices and promised outcomes do not line up with each other. For example, most compulsory students are required to ask permission to use the restroom during class, and are often denied based on the teacher’s agenda. The need to relieve one’s self of bodily wastes is undeniably necessary and can cause a lot of health problems if it isn’t taken care of in a timely manner. Regularly, many teachers tell students that they should have used the restroom during a break and they will just have to hold it, as though students’ bodies are finely tuned like a Swiss watch. Considering the utter necessity, coupled with its unpredictability due to the differences in people’s bodies and diets, it is obvious that using the restroom is not something that someone needs permission for in most situations. In a way, school is training for future employment, and indeed, some jobs, including being a school teacher, have restrictions on restroom accessibility, so some people may argue that asking permission to use the restroom at school is reasonable. The glaring truth is that students at compulsory schools are required to attend and follow the rules whether they want to or not, whereas an employee always has the choice to quit and find a different job. Think about it for a while and you will find many more contradictions throughout the system. With so much going wrong, students’ faith in the education system will continue to decline.

Considering that most of the adults of our society feel stuck in their ways of life and won’t stand up as a group to change the world around them, it will be left up to the young people to do it as they don’t have the same kinds of ingrained social obligations. As students’ faith in the education system declines, so does the ability of authority to control them. When young people see this, they will take advantage of it, and we will be lucky if it doesn’t erupt into total chaos. If chaos ensues, the young people will not be solely responsible for it, but rather the chaos will be the result of society’s over-sized resistance to change. But seriously, we need chaos because for our society to be dramatically restructured, it first has to fall like a house of cards, and the young people are at its foundation. When the young people pull themselves out of the game, the rules will no longer apply and the game will be over.

[Terri]

The first kids to defy the system will face dire consequences. Therefor nobody will want to start the ball rolling. Therefore change will probably not come from the students.

[Eranice]

After having read the majority of these posts, I have to say that I find the whole lot completely ridiculous. This is coming from a homeschooling mother with lots of experience with public school as well. As a teacher, I expect my kids to let me know when they need a break, bathroom or otherwise. I can't read minds and it is disrespectful to leave the room while in the middle of something without saying a word. There are also timed tests (standardized state tests usually) where bathroom breaks aren't allowed for time constraints. This is life and can't be changed. Why would we let our kids grow up thinking it's acceptable to drop <i> everything</i> whenever they like? That isn't life. Our rural town is 45 minutes from the nearest grocery store. There is nothing between our town and the next. It is unacceptable for my children to not take a bathroom break in preparation of one of our trips. Unless an emergency situation comes up, they are expected to hold it until we get there. If we expect our kids to drop trou any time the urge hits them, why potty train at all?

[valcwby81]

It's situations like this that I wish we could home school. Unfortunately, my wife's English is not the best. She comes from another country, and I'm afraid that that would impede our kids from learning.

[cubcadet]

We had a couple of children who were incontinent in our class back in grade school. They just didn`t ask, how could they know. We all were allowed to `get up and go`. Teachers always let us go. We were specifically taught to raise our hand and ask first. I think that would not suffice today. As far as IQ levels, todays children are not makin`it anyways, for a lot of reasons. Certainly, they are not taught manners, in general. That begins at home. Training and discipline is sacrificed in favor of feelings based grades. Moral and social imperatives are not taught. Children are taught to make decisions based upon how they feel, not on learned facts. I remember my mom talking about the `NEW MATH`. What happened to the old math? I kind of remember the transition from a `yes or no` answer on tests, to multiple choice and being graded on a curve. I`d never allow any child entrusted to me into a government brain laundry these days.

http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote/john_dunphy_quote_a71c

[Grouchy-Hermit]

It's situations like this that I wish we could home school. Unfortunately, my wife's English is not the best. She comes from another country, and I'm afraid that that would impede our kids from learning.
Even if you can't home school, you can stay engaged with the children and have a dramatic positive influence.

That begins at home.

Yup, it all begins at home. If there is a good foundation at home, the kids will usually get it in school.

[wildturnip]

Paul-- I always made them be polite to everyone, but I never made them obey anyone just because they were adults or teachers or SS leaders, etc. But none of them were ever impolite to others or disrespectful of property, animals, or people.

Mom5--I understand your point. I just never was very good at giving other people the power to control my kids, even in small things. It might just be something that I personally couldn't deal with. We all have our own sacred cows, and the kids were always mine. Literally, there are probably 5 people, other than us, that I told them they had to obey in their childhood other than the police (laws). And there are fewer than those that I ever left them in the care of unless I was there too, like at church or a HS coop. Even when they went to private school for a short time, I was there in another classroom, and I always kept my daughter in my room rather than letting her go into the room with the kids her age. I did send the older ones to public school for a short while, but it was just too irritating for us to deal with, so we took them out.

This might just be my own personal "issue". We all have one, and the kids were always my Achilles heel. I always felt the need to protect them.

I've always felt this way too but never knew anybody felt the same way! My kids were always respectful but I expected them to obey what we had taught me, even if another adult disagreed with us. There have been many situations here like you described with your daughter not riding with a certain family, etc.

[3boysmom]

I have been on both sides of this......I am a public school teacher, and my son peed in his pants in 1st grade because the teacher told him he needed to wait until their next break to go to the restroom. I was very angry when this happened, too.

The problem is that many teachers are what I call "box-checkers" and "linear thinkers." Basically, the rules are the rules and cannot be broken. You probably know people like this......they don't know how to bend when the situation deviates from "the plan" and warrants a rule change or exception. The occupation draws these people (my theory - that personality type always does well in school, and a positive school experience often makes these folks want to become teachers, whether or not they actually like children and are good at teaching). So many of my colleagues are not flexible and think their students should behave like little robots. When they don't, they become hell-bent on making the child conform or convincing parents the child has ADHD. They are more interested in teaching their curriculum than in teaching CHILDREN. Unfortunately, this is the philosophy that public schools promote for the most part.

My policy (especially since the incident with my own son!) is that I never tell anyone they cannot go to the restroom. I have some children who are wonderful, responsible children and would never abuse the privilege......on the rare occasions that they ask to go, I let them go without reservation no matter what we are doing. I have others who do abuse the privilege and have been caught using the opportunity to meander the hall and peek into other classrooms, play, etc. Those children I tell yes, but with a time limit. If they do not return within five minutes, I tell them I'm sending out the search party. It is rare that I have to send out the posse! We also spend a lot of time discussing what constitutes a true emergency, and when it would be appropriate to ask in non-emergencies. I have taught grades 2-5 over the years, and have never had issues with this policy. Had my son's 1st grade teacher been a little less of a box checker, she would have adopted something similar.

I don't say any of this to toot my own horn, it's just an insight into how the machine works. I'm not the most organized teacher, or particularly good at turning paperwork in on time (one year my kids called my desk area "the fort!") For that reason I'm not one of the administration's "darlings." But my students have had the opportunity to grow vegetables in the school garden, cook, do fun research projects and cool science experiments, and will have good memories of the year they've had. I also tell them that if they disagree with me about something or think I've been unfair, they may (at an appropriate time) talk to me about it in a calm and respectful way. Many's the time they have brought something to my attention, and I have apologized and changed my mind. These are skills they will need in real life.......I want children to be thinkers and doers, not mindless box-checkers like some of the people I work with!

Not all of my colleagues are "box checkers" (thank God, because I would quit!), but they are often the ones promoted and put in charge. Thus the cycle continues......they hire ones just like them.

[CountryBertha]

I had a 3rd grade teacher who refused to allow me to go to the bathroom, and it was urgent.

Her orderly class was seriously disrupted when I suddenly urped on my desk.

Never forgotten that witch either.

[oldtimer]

OK, is the OP for real????

This is the problem we have in this country, "poor Johnny" has a "right" to use the John whenever he wants and then we complain when he can't read. Perhaps he's been in the john too much.

If anyone is opposed to public school education, keep your youngun's home and teach em yourself if you think you can do better.

However, it's not available for everyone. Some how I survived public school education and we had to use the throne room before school, right after recess, at noon, and before getting on the bus, that's it.

I don't think any of us got bladder infection, none of us died, and most of us went on to become fairly productive citizens. Oh, but we were also raised to respect the teacher and be good Americans, we prayed in school before we ate.

I've taught school for thirty years. People send you the best they've got. I've never had a student who wasn't the best Mommy and Daddy sent. But in the last thirty years, they send them with the attitude that the sun rises and sets across their little bottoms and they have all these "rights" like the OPstr said.
Give me a break, teachers aren't paid battle pay, in fact, I never made anywhere near what I could have made for babysitting. I taught in a state that has consistently been at the bottom of the pay scale ever since I"ve been teaching.

I really think people want their children to learn, it's just interesting how they also think their child should run the show.

I admire the people who have taken the initiative to educate their own children. They're not just complaining about how horrible the schools are, they've decided to do something about it. But you have a few who don't think the schools can do anything right, and they're like the OP and they won't do anything to make the schools better, and they're also not about to teach their own kids. I wonder why??

I will have to say, many of the homeschool crowd are the kind of people that they would be like my folks were, that you go to school to learn and you are in trouble at school, you'll be in trouble at home too. Too bad we don't see those kids in our classrooms, they're homeschooled. So, consequently, we're left with an overly large percentage of those in the OP crowd who think the sun rises and sets across their youngun's rump and they send their kids to school to run the school.

If your kid isn't getting a good enough education in school, by all means, pull them out. You can even hold classes in the bathroom if you want. :yes4:

[kfander]

The first kids to defy the system will face dire consequences. Therefor nobody will want to start the ball rolling. Therefore change will probably not come from the students.

Which is precisely the same control that the government has over adults.