Bartering and the coming struggle for survival

[pcrowder]

I've been thinking alot about first-hand accounts of life I've read about during the last Great Depression. Alot of people bartered alot of things, because they either didn't have any $$, or what little they had was needed for other things. I've thought about doing the following, but am looking for ideas from everyone else too.

I'm trying to keep a supply of things that are desirable barter items - heavy quilts, dehydrated non-typical food like cabbage, kale, onions, etc. Also I have a surplus of oil lamps I can trade if I need to. I think people are gonna get really sick and tired of eating beans and rice when TSHTF, and I think a couple of quarts of really tasty stuff like really good salsa, spaghetti sauce, and canned venison/elk/lamb/poultry would be worth their weight as a good barter item.

People also are putting up food, but I dare say most of them are NOT stocking up on stuff like extra socks, warm winter clothes, winter hats, extra blankets etc. People wear out socks, lose hats, wear winter clothes out, and will need extra blankets if the heat is out or they're forced to cut it back drastically. I need to get my treadle sewing machine into the house and see what it will need to get it working perfectly. I think that I can bargain/earn $$ for alot of what I may need (small items/help with repairs to the farm or machinery) if I can mend/alter clothes for people, and I can also knit and crochet hats and socks pretty rapidly. If the economy gets too bad, people will not have the $$ to replace their worn out clothing. Wish I had the ability to re-sole shoes and boots --- those skills will be much in demand as people will NOT be able to afford decent shoes, and the cheapie plastic or canvas thin shoes from the Dollar Store won't last them long.

I'm also planning on keeping around some generic size 'window quilts" that people can nail/push pin/velcro over their windows to keep the cold out.
I'm also going to take quart jars and put in each one assortment of dried foods like dehydrated cabbage, onions, parsley, carrots, potatoes, corn, dry soup base, etc., and then have those ready for either immediate use or barter. All you would have to have is a supply of potable water and it's tasty soup in a jar. Again, a good barter item when people get sick of beans, rice, and MREs.

I also plan to start dehydrating meat straight - no seasonings - for things like soup. Again, a good barter item. I am also going to keep canning butter and milk for either barter or sale if/when the cows are dry because I'm the only one around here that has a milk cow. Wish I could home-dry eggs, but apparently it's not safe to do so.

My biggest demand around here is hay. I can feed the dogs/cats/poultry kitchen scraps, left over eggs/milk/bread, but the cows (and goats) are a problem to feed in the winter. They must have hay, and that will be a huge burden for us because we don't own enough land to be able to raise our own. I'm hoping to be able to have enough barter items or money to be able to make sure I can feed the animals all winter long. We put the cows out on stalks (which we lease from neighbors), but I have a feeling that they will be needing CASH and won't probably be willing to barter too much in exchange for the stalks.

Our income has been cut back drastically in the last 8 months, so buying alot of the preps I need (that I've been forced to use recently) isn't happening. I've been hitting up the pantry pretty hard lately, so it's kind of like a "dry run" in some ways for us.

Any more ideas from anyone on possible bartering?

[NCLee]

Keep in mind that you can barter your skills!

One example: Swap knitting lessons for xzy that you need.

Watch for sewing equipment at yard sales and flea markets. Knitting needles, crochet hooks, regular needles, pins, spools of thread, etc. I bought a shoe box full of spools of threads and a few odds and ends the other day for a dollar or two.

Any time you discard old clothing salvage everything that can be re-used. Buttons, snaps, zippers, etc. Mayo jars make good storage containers. Set aside a tote for the usable fabric pieces. Save the good parts of old jeans to make patches.

With a combo of backup supplies you'll be able to both mend /make newe items and to teach your skills. Be it how to darn socks to how to crochet a warm cap made from scrap materials (think braided rug concept for your "yarn").

Now for the reverse. Where your budget will permit, stock pile the bare minimum basics. Sugar is an example. Salt is another. What will people trade for a cup of sugar or a shaker full of salt, after they've run out of same?

Just some thoughts that come to mind.

Lee

[Mom5farmboys]

Lee had some great suggestions I was going to suggest the sewing notions also.

In addition the hillbilly housewife has sewing plans that you can make your own "feminine hygine" products. Washable and reusable. Might come a day when other women would be interested in getting and using these, especially if they cant get anything else. If you have the patterns and have a few made up, they may be worth something to someone-or even the patterns would be worth a trade?

Cloth diapers. I remember a friend of my moms telling me that when she had her babies her mom made her all of her starter diapers out of white flannel. I'm not sure if you need a pattern but people keep having babies and its likely that someone may need something like this someday-even just a pattern of you can find it.

I hope this helps.

[CapeCMom]

Wood for heating. It's a lot of work to split and stack it, but people will be desperate for it.

Also I hate to say it-homemade alcohol. Even sugaring peaches will make a type of homemade brandy. You can make it up ahead out of just about any fruit and plenty of sugar. People will want to drown their sorrows.

[pcrowder]

Wow! We think alike! I've been stockpiling thread,fabric, bobbins, more fabric, yarn, more fabric yet, and even just bought 2 used sewing machines on EBay for next to nothing. I never discard ANY clothing - it's either turned into quilts/cloth napkins/lining for quilts, dog blankets, calf warming blankets, etc, but I do cut off and save all the buttons/zippers/snaps. I bought (again on EBay) patterns for cloth diapers because I have a new granddaughter who will need them soon. I've got 550# of red wheat, 50# of sugar, 20#of salt, 50# of rye, 200# of corn, and 50# of barley and so on stockpiled. I've got the basic food staples stored, and planning to get more. But I just worry that since the garden is a total wash (grasshoppers and unending rains), I won't really have anything to can other than what I can buy fresh at the grocery store, and that if those type of things become scarce, I will be the one to have to barter for them. I have the ingredient to make ALOT of homemade laundry soap -- do you guys think it would be better to make it up and store it now, or just keep the ingredients separate and ungrated, and do it later? We are VERY rural here, and don't have too many other farms around us. I've thought about the wood -- everyone here has huge "brush piles" (as they call them), but they have everything from pallets to old cut down trees piled on them. I need to haul some back here and get started on cutting wood. Hope my chain saw holds out!

Hmmm homemade alcohol. Sounds like an intriguing idea. I can't drink it myself (diabetic), but I'll bet I could make some and just keep it hidden from d/h and d/s. I'll just label it "canning vinegar" and put in the pantry - they'll never be the wiser!

I'm thinking I can stockpile alot more wheat and corn and always use my baking skills to barter for stuff -- homemade cinnamon rolls, homemade donuts, homemade bread might be good 'bargainable' items. I think that alot of people will spend alot more time doing the chores they now take for granted -- things like laundry and cooking from scratch and planting gardens, and won't have alot of time to bake for themselves.

Thanks for the ideas guys!!

[CapeCMom]

I just thought of something else-in a long term SHTF situation, even used shoes will make valuable barter items. From watching "The Road" Shoes were worth their weight in gold!!!
I know you said clothes and socks already but footwear will be on the tops of many lists especially if people will start having to walk.

[pcrowder]

GREAT idea! I just wish I had a cobbler's sewing machine and access to leather. Hmmmmm we DO have a bunch of cows out on pasture.... wonder if d/s would miss any of them? It's "free range leather"!

[randallhilton]

Ditto on the shoes. I also keep an eye out for quality clothing at super low prices. Just picked up a wool shirt for a $1.50 at a thrift store.

I wouldn't tie up a bunch of cash on barter items -- things may never get that bad -- but whenever clothes and/or shoes can be had for nothing or near nothing gather them up. Set aside the ones that are your size and keep everything else in a tight 55 gal. drum or galvanized garbage can.

If you come across gloves -- leather palm, cotton or whatever, they could be important too. For that matter, just keep track of all the things we use in a day's work, whether it be agriculture or tinkering etc. Any of that stuff that wears out, needs sharpening or whatever should be on the list.

I've also been socking away medicinals such as gauze bandages, tape, antiseptic etc. as well as learning how to use the stuff.

Bicycle parts, tires & tubes could become valuable too. Keep the rubber stuff protected from air as much as possible.

Bartering in general will have to be done with smaller items like folks have been posting about. It's difficult to make change for a cow "for buying a cord of aged oak with you get back 2 goats, 3 hens and a 9 eggs in change for that Jersey cow"

I'm thinking that heavy sewing -- shoes, tote bags, canvas etc. -- will be a needed skill. There are very few who can do that sort of thing in this "throw away economy" but this could be changing even if only a little S HTF.

[pcrowder]

I definitely agree about the bartering for a cow not working -- that's why we have pigs - piglets are smaller and more able to be bartered. Same with goat kids and chickens or turkeys. The smaller the item, the easier it will be to barter with. That's why I figure butter, cream, cheese, and yogurt will be easy to barter with. Same with baked goods and small quantities of meat or poultry. I think alot of it will be trading labor too. "You help me work my calves and I'll help you with yours", or "you bale the picked wheat stalks in the field for straw, and we'll sell it and split the proceeds". I have a standing agreement with a friend that lets me use his billy for free -- any buck kids born are his, any does are mine. Works out really well. No $$ changes hands, and we are both winners. I think we'll see alot more of that coming down the road.

Unfortunately, as good of an idea as it is, the bike parts won't work out here. Wish it would. We're 32 mi round trip over gravel roads to the closest town. Am racking my brain, though, to think of something I could barter along those same lines, though. We DO have 2 Belgian draft mules d/h has been promising to train. Yeah, right. sure. It's been 4 years now and he hasn't done anything with them. Maybe I can work with them this winter, and then could barter the use of their services for farm chores (hauling hay in the winter, dragging heavy objects, etc) with some of the neighbors.

[flatblack]

Nails, carrage bolts and lag screws. Hardware of all types and descriptions. Barbwire, smooth wire, t-posts. Small metal manufactured items that are cheap and easily procured (right now)

Alcohol and cigarettes absolutely. If you laid in a good supply (several dozen at least) of cheap cartons of smokes and chew, maybe a pallet of natural lite beer or some milwaukee's best, you wont have any shortage of bartering materials. Hard liquor is good, store more in a smaller space, but beer is what your hardened alcoholics really want, they drink it like water. Also, it breaks down. What do you think a sixpack will be worth to someone who's hard up and hasn't had a drink in a month or so?

If the SHTF, a pallet of natural lite will be worth it's weight in gold.

Keep the bobbins and thread; post collapse, people want toilet paper and beer.

[nhlivefreeordie]

Pat, don't be so quick to dismiss bicycle's and parts for them. The NVA and Viet Cong used them to transport enough material through the Ho Chi Minh trail to defeat the strongest Army in the world, even if you aren't riding them, the bicycle can be used to carry heavy loads over those gravel roads.

How about freezing a good supply of Open Pollinated seeds? Many people that aren't even sure what that means will be looking for seed, and if you have the kind they can save seeds from it would be worth something, to you as well as a potential customer.

If you decide to go with wood. Get it up off the ground, pallets work great, and then cover the top, corrugated roof panels with cinder blocks on top make for conditions where it will stay useable for a long long time.

[patience]

randallhilton said, "I wouldn't tie up a bunch of cash on barter items..."

Excellent! The goal here is to come out ahead, so gather up what you can get for nothing, or close to it. Many good ideas here already.

My wife saw the photos online of Russian people whose homes had burned down in the recent tragedy there. Thos people were salvaging home canned food from their cellars--the only thing they had left. :( Wife immediately decided to put the canning effrts into high gear.

For me, metal working skills are the gift that keeps on giving. Likewise any sort of repair skills. Dad lived through the dirty 30's, and said that people will always need to eat, they will always want to drink alcohol (he made home brew in the bathtub), and dead people need coffins. My Granddad was a furniture maker, but when nobody could afford furniture during the Depression, he made coffins.

Great-Grandad only had 20 acres of very poor land, but it grew grapes famously well, so made a lot of wine way back when. Another Great Grandad was a god butcher, so he helped with that when needed and always came home with some meat for pay.

Storing barter goods is fine, but it has its' limits. Skills keep on giving, so stock the materials and tools to use those skills.

[randallhilton]

Along these lines. . . sometimes the important isn't the obvious. I just finished Eagan's "Worst Hard Time" for 2nd or 3rd time. (we don't know what a hard time looks like compared to the Nesters on the plains!!!). Russian immigrants brought over Turkey Red wheat grains sewed into the lining of their coats so they could get started here. But they accidentally brought stowaway Russian thistle (tumble weeds) which turned out to be the only food some cattle had during the drought.

Re: Toilet paper -- If things get bad suddenly, TP will probably be a good commodity for a while. If we ease into hard times (more likely) TP will probably fade away without having achieved a high barter value. I'd face a bit of rebellion around here but we could easily use rags and wash them out just like my grand parents did. Other people will figure that out soon enough.

Ditto on developing skills. I'm also keen on maintaining some sort of publishing and communication ability. I figure communication is the glue of civilization. It would be very important for facilitating a barter exchange.

[flatblack]

Along these lines. . . sometimes the important isn't the obvious. I just finished Eagan's "Worst Hard Time" for 2nd or 3rd time. (we don't know what a hard time looks like compared to the Nesters on the plains!!!). Russian immigrants brought over Turkey Red wheat grains sewed into the lining of their coats so they could get started here. But they accidentally brought stowaway Russian thistle (tumble weeds) which turned out to be the only food some cattle had during the drought.

Re: Toilet paper -- If things get bad suddenly, TP will probably be a good commodity for a while. If we ease into hard times (more likely) TP will probably fade away without having achieved a high barter value. I'd face a bit of rebellion around here but we could easily use rags and wash them out just like my grand parents did. Other people will figure that out soon enough.

Ditto on developing skills. I'm also keen on maintaining some sort of publishing and communication ability. I figure communication is the glue of civilization. It would be very important for facilitating a barter exchange.

Nice observation. I really hadn't considered that, but it makes perfect sense. If TP was a luxury item, I could make do with washing some old rags. Others will too. Some won't adapt as well, but when it comes right down to it, it's no worse than changing a baby.

Good call.

[NCLee]

Agree about TP. With a total breakdown, we're going to be back to outhouses. Since there are no worries about clogged plumbing, the alternatives to traditional TP greatly increase.

TP takes so much space to store in relationship to the return on investment, iMHO. A large paper grocery bag, carefully filled with newspapers (slick inserts removed) may equal more TP "sheets" than a bulk pack of rolls. Will take less space as it's more compact.

And that newspaper has more uses, too! From starting fires to insulation to wrapping fish.

Or.... WalMart has large packs of washcloths for $4. (If memory serves it's 18 of them.) Recently bought a pack for my workshop. How many rolls of TP can you get for 4 bucks, today? Wash and re-use, they'll last forever when compared to TP.

Same with paper towels. They take up far too much space. Better to have a drawer full of cloth dish towels and dish rags. They'll keep on giving long after the last roll of paper towels has been used or bartered. With today's prices on those things, it's more cost effective to spend the same amount of money at Family Dollar for their cheap cloth versions. Much more bang for the buck. And, they have barter potential for folks used to using paper towels and automatic dishwashers. Especially those who don't cook from scratch anymore.

Back to sewing for a minute. Even if you don't sew now, pick up a set or 2 of upholstery needles. Those large needles, straight and curved, can do things that regular needles just can't handle. Even a novice can punch holes in canvas and using upholstery needles get two pieces attached together, when needed. (Applies to all types of heavy fabrics, leather, plastics, etc.)

To go with your upholstery needles, you'll need "thread". Think outside of the box. Fishing line, butchers twine, leather boot laces, florist wire, etc. Even thin strips of cloth are "thread" when the need arises. As will strips of leather cut from 25 cent thrift store belts.

When shopping for barter items, look for small, yet highly useful items. One that comes to mind are old fashioned can and church key type bottle openers. Go through those boxes of kitchen utensils that show up at every yardsale and thrift store. Ignore the plastic stuff. Zero in on ice picks, veggie peelers, nutmeg graters (good for other things), and yes, can openers. A shoe box full of those, bought for pennies, can be worth their weight in gold when the grid goes down.

As will stove top coffee pots. (You knew I had to get coffee into this somehow. :) ) I've recently added collecting those for my "stash" when I run across a bargain. For example, recently bought a camping cookset for $3, just to get the coffee pot. Before the coffee runs out, what will people barter for either a way to make coffee or for a hot cup of java?

Just some more thoughts for this thread that someone may find to be useful.

Lee

[tomato204]

Some good ideas there but I have to wonder if TP is not available due to economic upheaval, will newspaper be? And...whether it's shoes or salt, etc., unless you can clearly see the end of the crisis, I wouldn't barter away anything I don't have a lifetime supply of! I don't want to have to go back to the same guy later and pay triple or worse for salt (or whatever).

[debidoodle]

I have a leather sewing machine, (I make deerskin bags for sale). Anyway, ya'll have given me a great idea! I can get buckskins and other types of leather at a great price, friends a Tanner. I'm going to work out a few patterns for Moccasins and some boots and such. See what I can come up with. Who knows I may have a new career!

[NCLee]

Tomato, you've brought up a good point.

TP - that's why I'm storing newspaper now. A few grocery bags of it don't take a lot of space. Not only for TP use, but for other uses, as well.

Barter vs keeping/using. The secret, IMHO, is to have enough of xyz stockpiled. Using a can opener, as the example. For prep purposes, a couple of manual can openers should be in everyones stash. If designated to become a barter item, a shoe box full of them is needed. This would apply across the board. After initially prepping for the family needs, some items would be stashed for the purpose of bartering.

The what and how much depends on many factors. Naturally budget and storage space come first. Next is the incorporation of knowledge/skill and the items chosen. Welding rod may be a good barter item. For me, I wouldn't store it, because I don't know how to weld. The combo of skill and supplies would rank higher, IMHO, than having just one of the combo.

Forgot to mention: pcrowder wrote:
I have the ingredient to make ALOT of homemade laundry soap -- do you guys think it would be better to make it up and store it now, or just keep the ingredients separate and ungrated, and do it later?

FWIW, my approach is to store the separate ingredients for things like laundry soap. They have other uses besides being in an already prepared mixture. Plus, in general, separate ingredients have varying shelf lives.

If I mix a batch of xyz (granola, laundry soap mix, etc.) the shelf life is controlled by the ingredient with the shortest life. If kept separate, until needed, I can rotate the individual ingredients, as needed. If I mix, I have to toss all the ingredients, even though most of them may still have a long life. For example, if the nuts in granola turn rancid, the raisins and apple chunks may still be fine. Yet, when I open the jar and it stinks of rancidity out it goes.

While that may not apply to a dry mix of laundry soap, making a bunch of it ahead of time, ties up all the ingredients to a single purpose. Keeping them separate, allows for dual duty, if the need arises. Sorta like saving the raisins for use in either granola or oatmeal cookies, whichever need/want comes first.

Again, just 2 cents.
Lee

[NCLee]

I have a leather sewing machine, (I make deerskin bags for sale). Anyway, ya'll have given me a great idea! I can get buckskins and other types of leather at a great price, friends a Tanner. I'm going to work out a few patterns for Moccasins and some boots and such. See what I can come up with. Who knows I may have a new career!

I envy your machine! :D

There are patterns on the internet for moccasins. I have some in my DIY library. Don't have the links handy. However, here's one site that may have some. http://www.primitiveways.com/index.html If not, it'll give you some good keywords to use to search. (Scroll down the right side for leather craft items.)

With your machine and supplies you can do a lot more than limiting yourself to footwear. That's why I included the link above. And, the principles for making A can be transferred to making B if you don't have electricity to run your machine, if it's not a manual one.

Good luck in getting your new career started! No joke there. Every skill we can possess that encompasses pre-electronics/electric will be an asset if the SHTF, IMHO.

Lee

[debidoodle]

Thanks for the links!
Dh just woke up(lazy man!) LOL!!

He was reading over my shoulder, and is now on the phone with our friend. This could be a great way to expand my inventory now, and help us out in the future!

[pcrowder]

Thanks for the advice on the laundry soap. I was torn between the two options, but I see your point of leaving everything in it's original state.

I LOVE to sew - hence my huge stockpile of sewing (and knitting) supplies. I've already figured that old pieces of flannel and soft fabric could be put to use as TP squares, diaper liners, homemade long underwear, etc.

GREAT idea about the welding rod, NC - d/s has a welder and those rods will certainly be of great barter value.

I also have a spinning wheel AND drop spindles - I suppose I could get more sheep again by bartering and spin the wool if I needed to. I also have 2 Great Pyr LGDs - I can always spin some of their combed undercoat to mix with the wool, and knit with it, or use it just combed and carded as a "bat" in heavy quilts. Warm winter clothes out here will be worth their weight in gold.

The draft mules are "sorta" trained by the previous owner. We DO have a forecart and a large wagon that would haul hay and other stuff if we needed to. They also have been ridden, but not for awhile. Looks like that may be my fall project this year - get them ready to WORK. We also have 2 other horses we can ride, and one that is a total wild man who I'm trying to sell or barter. Think I need to make getting rid of Pepper a priority - he is virtually unmanageable. (My youngest son's acquisition before he left home and moved to another state!)

debidoodle - I'm glad you have a good sewing machine. I have a Riccar and 2 Kenmores that will sew up to 1/3 inch leather and will also machine quilt. I have a cheaper Riccar that I bought very cheaply just to be able to piece quilt blocks in the fam room at night, and not be stuck isolated in my sewing room upstairs. I know it takes a special type of sewing machine to repair boots, but your idea on the moccassins is a great one! I also use my machines to repair Carhartt coats and the heavy winter bib overalls. I use upholstery thread and it seems to work very well.

NC - how did you know that I collect old percolators??? I also have several old pressure canners that I could use for barter if things got REALLY desperate, but there is no way I'll trade my All American Canner to anyone!! I also have several spare gaskets for canners which would also be a good barter item. I got to thinking that I could also barter canning up people's fruits and veggies for a share of those, like they used to do in the G.D.
I also collect oil lamps and lanterns in all shapes and sizes. I have enough of those to barter two to every farm in the area and still have leftovers! I also have spare mantles and wicks that I can barter too.

Guess I better get the old lard press dug out of storage too - we have 2 sows, 1 boar, and 12 weaned piglets so far this summer, and are considering picking up more piglets later this month at the sale barn. The local slaughterhouse charges a goodly amount to butcher/process them, and it's 20 miles from here - something that could prove difficult travel-wise if things get bad. I've butchered elk, deer, antelope and poultry myself - think I can probably handle doing a pig. Guess I need to look into a big rendering kettle too. I can always use it to boil water for the laundry tub if need be, or as a huge waterbath canner. Definitely need to make that a priority.

Thanks for all the ideas, guys!

[randallhilton]

I have the ingredient to make ALOT of homemade laundry soap

All this talk about TP and paper towels showed me something I wasn't taking seriously -- SOAP!

Dish rags and dish towels MUST be kept fresh and clean because they are perfect incubators for bacteria. Same would be true for toilet rags.

Keeping clean is a fundamental requirement to staying healthy -- it's hard to get work done with dysentery.

So. . . I'm moving soap up on the list -- it's so obvious I missed it! :meeting:

[randallhilton]

I hadn't thought about it from a barter standpoint but pool shock or other water treatment chemical could be very valuable - even in a local emergency. I stocked some for our use but I'll add to that for trade as well.

Keep in mind: In most areas natural water sources are no longer pristine. Just about everything will need disinfecting. If municipal and private purveyors run into financial problems the danger will get even worse.

[CapeCMom]

I looked at pool shock yesterday at Wally World. There were two different kinds that said "Sanitize" Which one do you get??? I was thinking the same thing about water disinfectant.

[NCLee]

All this talk about TP and paper towels showed me something I wasn't taking seriously -- SOAP!

Dish rags and dish towels MUST be kept fresh and clean because they are perfect incubators for bacteria. Same would be true for toilet rags.

Keeping clean is a fundamental requirement to staying healthy -- it's hard to get work done with dysentery.

So. . . I'm moving soap up on the list -- it's so obvious I missed it! :meeting:

Yep, soap is high on the list around here, too. Some tips, if you don't mind.

(1) Watch for sales to stock up on your routine bath soap. Take it out of the wrappers and let it dry. Each bar will go much further, after it's dried and not so soft. I have a bar of Dial in my shop that's a couple of years old. It's dried out so much that it's cracked. Yet, it still does a good job when I use it to wash my hands. If you wish, return the soap to the original wrappers after a few months in a dry place with good air circulation. Wicker basket, for example. Or, you can just leave the unwrapped bars in the bottom of dresser drawers, until needed. Makes it easy to stash a lot of bars without taking up a lot of extra space. :wink:

(2) Stock up on bars of laundry soap. For example, I recently bought 20 bars of Octagon (Lowes Foods). These are going into storage and won't be routinely used. However, if I have to pull out the washboard and do laundry by hand, I'll have some bar soap. There are several brands. You'll see those referenced in recipes for making homemade laundry soap.

(3) Get a good recipe for homemade powedered or liquid laundry soap. Check out the candle and soap making forum for more info. Stock the ingredients to make your choice of homemade version.

(4) Learn to make homemade lye soap. For best results add lye (sodium hydroxide) to your stash of things. Red Devil lye is no longer being sold due to the demand by meth labs. However, there is an acceptable alternative to Red Devil. It's a drain cleaner that's 100% crystal sodium hydroxide. I buy mine at Tractor Supply. http://www.tractorsupply.com/plumbing-chemicals/drain-openers/roebic-crystal-drain-opener-2-lbs--3001186 I understand it's also available at Lowes and maybe Home Depot. BTW, our TS only stocks 2 bottles at a time. I buy both, each time I stop by and it's on the shelf. (I use it for cleaning castiron cookware.)

(5) If worst comes to worst, learn how to make lye to make soap. This is the best reference that I've found on making lye. Good info, too on making soap and how to render fats to make soap. http://www.grandpappy.info/wsoap.htm and http://www.grandpappy.info/wclarify.htm

With those steps, you'll have the bases covered when it comes to SOAP! :)

Lee

[nhlivefreeordie]

I looked at pool shock yesterday at Wally World. There were two different kinds that said "Sanitize" Which one do you get??? I was thinking the same thing about water disinfectant.

I am not sure what pool shock costs, but why not use bleach to disinfect your water? I drop per gallon.

[randallhilton]

I am not sure what pool shock costs, but why not use bleach to disinfect your water? I drop per gallon.

Bleach degrades over time and is much more dangerous to store than powder. Here's a link that explains a bit more about using calcium hypochlorite (http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/better-than-bleach-use-calcium-hypochlorite-to-disinfect-water/) (pool shock) for disinfecting water.

In the context of barter items, it would be much easier to trade off a few ounces of pool shock since it's a powder. Besides that. . .I'm thinking that the effectiveness of bleach would have expired long before a gallon bottle is used up.

Here's an excerpt from the article:
A little known problem with long term storage of bleach in your disaster emergency supply cache is that it degrades over time. Consulting a Chlorox bleach representative produced this statement:

“We recommend storing our bleach at room temperatures. It can be stored for about 6 months at temperatures between 50 and 70 degrees Fahrenheit. After this time, bleach will be begin to degrade at a rate of 20% each year until totally degraded to salt and water. Storing at temperatures much higher than 70 degrees Fahrenheit could cause the bleach to lose its effectiveness and degrade more rapidly. However, if you require 6% sodium hypochlorite, you should change your supply every 3 months.”

[tomato204]

That's right about bleach breaking down over time. If you look around the top of an old jug you've had open a long time you'll see salt crystals forming.
When using good bleach to sterilize water, I use 8 drops from a medicine dropper for 1 gallon of water, and let it sit for a half-hour at 70F at least before using.

[NCLee]

Here's the link to Clorox with instructions for disinfecting water. http://www.clorox.com/products/faqs.php?prod_id=clb#faq2 Just below this is the info for disinfecting laundry and objects, including a list of the disease agents that it kills. IMHO, a good to know for now and if things get worse.

As an FYI - I stopped buying Clorox in bulk packages from Sam's Club because we didn't use enough per week to use it up before it became too old.

I need to get up to speed on pool shock, too. During the summer I use much more Clorox than I do in winter. Disinfecting food grade water hoses, cleaning outdoor food prep surfaces, and for purchased used canning jars before first use, to mention a few extra uses, during summer.

Thanks for bringing it up in this thread. I need to get off my duff and start putting some aside, both for my own use and to barter, too.

Lee

[nhlivefreeordie]

Good to know, I didn't realize that about shelf life of clorox. Now that leads to another question, if you store water in plastic food grade containers, and put the clorox in to begin with, does this mean that the water isn't any good after 6 months?
I am beginning to think that investment in a big Berkey system with extra elements might be more cost effective in the long run, and doesn't require all the storage space and rotation that storing water does...thoughts?

[CapeCMom]

A Berkey is on the top of my list! We have a 12 acre pond just down the street so I am not too worried about storing water. The means to clean it and then filter it are of top concern.
Just a heads up-I have heard that Berkey's are back ordered for months so if you are thinking about it, I would order it now because it may take you awhile to get delivery.
With you having a stream at the back of your property Wayne I wouldn't worry about having water unless there was a huge drought in your area.

[Aamylf]

I'm unable to find the kind of pool shock everyone is talking about. I did find stabilized chlorinator which is trichlore triazienetrione. No algacide, no fungacide. Is this the same stuff? I can only find one reference on line aboaut utilizing it for drinking water.

[patience]

That's not the same stuff. I don't know what that is. For use in our cistern, I bought HTH brand "SUPER shock 'n swim" at Wal Mart (stocked only in summer), 5 one pound bags in a box for about $16. Label says it contains calcium hypochlorite, 52%, the rest is inert ingredients. The site posted above tells how to use it, IIRC.

[randallhilton]

TP takes so much space to store in relationship to the return on investment, iMHO. A large paper grocery bag, carefully filled with newspapers (slick inserts removed) may equal more TP "sheets" than a bulk pack of rolls. Will take less space as it's more compact.

And that newspaper has more uses, too! From starting fires to insulation to wrapping fish.
Lee

Another compact and convenient TP resource would be phone books, especially if you're near a big city. Our yellow pages is over a 1000 pages so I figure a couple or three of those would handle our family for a year.

They're available in many places. I sometimes use them for target backstops but will keep a few for the "higher purpose" just in case.

[NCLee]

Re: Berkley Fillters - Check out this site. Includes instructions on how to make one usng the components instead of buying the whole assembly. Parts may be available faster than the units if they are on a long, long lead time. Plus, should be less expensive, too boot. Scroll down to the section on water for this and alot more. http://drum-runners.com/ If you're planning to use Pool Shock, believe the info on the ingredients in Pool Shock from a medical standpoint will be beneficial, too.

Re: Yellow pages: Everyone of those phone books, either white pages or yellow pages go into storage. Not only for TP, but to also extend the life of a stash of matches. For example, use a match to light a lamp. Tear a page out of a phone book. Twist it tight. Light it from the lamp and then use to light other lamps, or a fire in the stove, buddy burner, etc. As long as something is kept burning, after using the first match, days can go by without having to strike another one.

Re: Water. At this time, I don't plan on buying a Berkley. Basted on our circumstances, if the need arises, will convert our well to bucket and chain. Already have the tickle (pulley) for that purpose. For the creeks out back, plan to use homemade filter (cloth first for debris, then sand/charcoal, followed by boiling. FWIW, for the long haul, I try to look back to ways our great, great grandparents coped.

On the short haul, yes, we have drinking water stored. Chlorine bleach is a routine item in the house. And, I do plan to stash some pool shock. I look at these as short term solutions to give time to setup for the long haul. (Pull the pump, set up the frame for using buckets, etc.)

And, to keep this on the barter track. :) We'll barter for "green stamps" with the well. No, we won't charge anyone anything for using our well. However, for many people around here, the old saying applies. One good turn deserves another. The folks with those deep drilled wells may drop off a bag of apples when they get water from ours.

Lee

[midmo]

My contributions:
For barter, fishhooks and line. Cheap and easy to accumulate now, not easily fabricated/replaced later.

Pool shock: part of our justification in having an above-ground pool in the back yard is as a backup water supply. Won't need much cleaning up to be drinkable if needed, add a gas-powered pump and it becomes fire protection (I'm in an old, dry, stick-framed house at least 20 minutes from the nearest fire truck...). And of course it means we always have plenty of pool shock on hand. In the meantime, it's awfully nice to have that pool after a hot, muggy afternoon of mowing or garden work. :D

[NotSoFast]

Re: Toilet paper -- If things get bad suddenly, TP will probably be a good commodity for a while. If we ease into hard times (more likely) TP will probably fade away without having achieved a high barter value. I'd face a bit of rebellion around here but we could easily use rags and wash them out just like my grand parents did. Other people will figure that out soon enough.

Telephone books work too. And they don't take nearly the space TP takes. I'm saving my old ones (get 3 a year here) as well as a year's supply of a good quality TP.

[NCLee]

A few more items with barter potential, once you have it/them in place for yourself.

Windup clocks and watches - How many people will have a way to tell time after all the batteries die? Watch for travel alarm clocks at yardsales.

Shaving supplies - old fashioned safety razers and blades. Disposable razers. Shaving soap. Straight razor & strop. Sometimes discount stores have mugs, soap, and brushes on sale for men's Christmas gifts. Pickup 1 or more for your household. Then, if the price is right add a couple more for potential barter.

Writing materials and plain envelopes. If email and on-line transactions fail, people will have to do more written communication. From keeping up with family to paying bills. Hopefully, some education will continue for children. I remember some episodes of Little House on the Pararie where the girls had to share a slate, didn't have a pencil or a tablet.

Along this line add a skill - homemade ink and quills. It's not hard to make make a quill from a chicken wing feather, but it does take practice to get it right. If kept tightly capped, India Ink lasts for years. Investigate ways to make homemade ink and keep the info in your DIY notebook. If you become a notary and have writing supplies on hand, this can be another barter skill.

6 mil plastic. Pickup a contractor sized roll from Lowes or Home Depot. What will a neighbor trade to get enough plastic to cover their windows in winter?

Old fashioned string mops. The kind where you can replace the strings. You don't have to have a string head to use these mops. Clamp cleaning rags instead, to mop the floor. Work just as well, maybe even better, than the strings. (Grew up using these, FWIW.) What will you barter to get off your knees for floor scrubbing?

Old Hickory carbon steel butcher knives. Buy them at yard sales. Learn to sharpen them (another barter skill). How many people have a good butcher knife for the time they have to butcher livestock and game themselves? A well sharpened Old Hickory and an axe can butcher a hog. Have seen it done many times.

And, that brings up another one. Axes and hatchets. How many of those folks in the nearby subdivision have a way to chop wood for that cooking fire in the backyard?

Wire and clothespins when clothes dryers don't work anymore. Can you make wooden peg style clothes pins?

Canning equipment, if you have room to store it. Pickup waterbath canners at yard sales and thrift stores when you spot them at reasonable prices. Wonder how many folks in that nearby subdivision have canning equipment in their kitchens? Canning is another skill that can be bartered!

Screen wire. Start with at least one roll of metal and one of fiberglass. Many uses from straining water, dehydrating, sifting, growing sprouts, and making repairs to exiting screens. Barter enough to cover a window for xyz that you need.

Oven grates for backyard cooking when those 20 lb propane cylinders are empty. FWIW, I collect objects that can be used as grates. (excluding refrigerator racks) "Objects" because other things can be converted to this use. Couple of examples: I bought a storm drain grate ($5) a few years ago or this purpose. Have 2 small expanded metal trailer gates - burn off the paint, then season. I put chains and hooks on one so it can be suspended over a campfire. The other (larger) can be set on cement blocks.

Flour sifters. Metal colanders. Tea strainers. Cork screws. Ice Picks. Manual kitchen timers.

And cocoa. :wink:

Lee

[nhlivefreeordie]

Old Hickory carbon steel butcher knives. Buy them at yard sales. Learn to sharpen them (another barter skill). How many people have a good butcher knife for the time they have to butcher livestock and game themselves? A well sharpened Old Hickory and an axe can butcher a hog. Have seen it done many times.


We did several moose this way up in NewFoundland until we started bringing a small chain saw with us.

[pcrowder]

Am now drowning in milk and cream. I made 2# butter and 5# cheese, and still have 6 gals of milk in the fridge, and have to go milk again in 4 hours. I am the only one around here with a dairy animal of any type, and there are families on surrounding farms with children, so I think that being able to barter milk, cream and cheese will be helpful. My chickens have also started laying well, so homemade egg noodles will be a good thing too. Alot of the ladies (in town) are always wanting to buy my eggs to make homemade noodles out of.

[pcrowder]

How many people have a good butcher knife for the time they have to butcher livestock and game themselves?
Lee

I butchered and wrapped an entire bull elk by myself last year using only a very large serrated knife. I finally found the fancy butchering knife set that my bro in law gave us the previous Christmas (AFTER the butchering was done, of course!) . I know exactly where it is this year, and it's all ready to go, as the guys go elk hunting again in about 3 wks...

[nhlivefreeordie]

Am now drowning in milk and cream.

Alot of the ladies (in town) are always wanting to buy my eggs to make homemade noodles out of.

Perhaps those ladies would also love some raw milk?

[TEX]

My DH plans to be the local bootlegger and bee man. Honey and liquor. Doesn't seem like such a bad idea to me. Yesterday he was talking about making his own barrels out of oak to put his "brew"in eventually. I am thinking that those barrels would also be great items to have and much in demand.

He is starting on a couple new bee hives in the next few days and we hope to be up to 6 hives in the next year. I said - hooch, bees? Gonna take a lot of sugar. At least if I buy 50 lb bags I don't have to say "for the Church bakesale". I can just say for the new bee hives.

[momma_to_seven_chi]

I butchered and wrapped an entire bull elk by myself last year using only a very large serrated knife.

I am impressed! The weight would be hard to deal with if you didn't have help.

I recently bought some ceramic knives, and they are AWESOME! The sharpest things I ever had. They say not to use them on bones because they could chip, but so far it hasn't been an issue. In the past we would use the ginsu knives on meats and cleaning animals.

[dearg]

My DH plans to be the local bootlegger and bee man. Honey and liquor. Doesn't seem like such a bad idea to me. Yesterday he was talking about making his own barrels out of oak to put his "brew"in eventually. I am thinking that those barrels would also be great items to have and much in demand.

He is starting on a couple new bee hives in the next few days and we hope to be up to 6 hives in the next year. I said - hooch, bees? Gonna take a lot of sugar. At least if I buy 50 lb bags I don't have to say "for the Church bakesale". I can just say for the new bee hives.


Honey mead, so good!!

[dearg]

I butchered and wrapped an entire bull elk by myself last year using only a very large serrated knife. I finally found the fancy butchering knife set that my bro in law gave us the previous Christmas (AFTER the butchering was done, of course!) . I know exactly where it is this year, and it's all ready to go, as the guys go elk hunting again in about 3 wks...

Now that's work!!!

DH is a meat market manager and custom butcher so we have some very good knives and saws.. What we need to do is set up a good size smoker..

[TEX]

Honey mead, so good!!

I have never tried it but have recipies waiting to be used when the honey production gets up.

[LJH]

Does mead taste like honey?

[DavidOH]

I bought my pool shock here.

https://www.hydropool.com/cgi-bin/hydro/22405.html

It is the right percentage 78% and the right ingredient: Calcium Hypochlorite
HTH POOLIFE TurboShock 78% 1 lb. bag Pool Chlorine

A bit expensive about $4
Shipping is $8 so I bought 4 $15.36 + $8 = $23.36
Four pounds, that's for about 40 THOUSAND gallons.

If you need larger quantities for your pool, free shipping starts at 20 bags. $76.80

btw... This is the only place that I have found this product.
All of the others were lower concentrations or the wrong ingredient.

[BonnyLake]

Does mead taste like honey?

There is meade wine and mead beer, the kind we made tasted like cheap white wine and it was a little cloudy, probably because we had trouble waiting the required amount of time to uncork it:girl_wacko:
It really didn't taste like honey, I would compare it to dandelion-type wine taste, a little bitter. But that was the recipe we used, there are lots of different variations.

Here's a link that gives a little run-down on mead(e).
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art28240.asp

[LJH]

Wow, I hadn't a clue. I thought it was just one type of drink, pretty much the same everywhere. That was an interesting read, thanks for the link.

Nothing described there sounded very appealing, I'm kind of a Coors or Bud Lite type of gal. I never learned to like wine because it gives me blinding, debilitating headaches and just the smell of of whisky makes me want to puke. We're talking cheap date here. :D

[randallhilton]

I bought my pool shock here.

https://www.hydropool.com/cgi-bin/hydro/22405.html

It is the right percentage 78% and the right ingredient: Calcium Hypochlorite
HTH POOLIFE TurboShock 78% 1 lb. bag Pool Chlorine

btw... This is the only place that I have found this product.
All of the others were lower concentrations or the wrong ingredient.

Good work on finding the high concentration material. Personally, I wouldn't let the concentration get in the way of picking up local supplies. Just use an appropriately larger dose to do the job.

[pcrowder]

Perhaps those ladies would also love some raw milk?

I've thought about it, but it's a 32 mi round trip just to get to town. And diesel here is $3.00/gallon right now. AND - it's illegal in Colorado to sell raw milk. I think I'm just going to can up a bunch of it for pies, puddings, etc., and freeze as much cream as I can so we'll always be able to have butter, and make lots and lots and lots of cheese. And, if I'm still swimming in it, think I'll go get 2 bottle calves from the dairy in the next city - they'll be guaranteed to drink it all up!

[pcrowder]

I am impressed! The weight would be hard to deal with if you didn't have help.

I recently bought some ceramic knives, and they are AWESOME! The sharpest things I ever had. They say not to use them on bones because they could chip, but so far it hasn't been an issue. In the past we would use the ginsu knives on meats and cleaning animals.

The knife wasn't a paring knife, but wasn't boning length either -- it was kind of a glorified steak knife. I thought my hands were gonna fall off, and it took me 3 days total, 20 hrs a day, to cut and wrap it. I was so angry at sons/husband that I don't think I talked to them except to voice my "displeasure" (repeatedly and in a very loud voice, I might add!!!). I already told that them this will NEVER EVER EVER happen again to a 55+ yr old woman with arthritis in her hands! So, we'll see what happens this year. The butchering kit is really nice -- wish I'd have remembered it last year!

[nhlivefreeordie]

I've thought about it, but it's a 32 mi round trip just to get to town. And diesel here is $3.00/gallon right now. AND - it's illegal in Colorado to sell raw milk. I think I'm just going to can up a bunch of it for pies, puddings, etc., and freeze as much cream as I can so we'll always be able to have butter, and make lots and lots and lots of cheese. And, if I'm still swimming in it, think I'll go get 2 bottle calves from the dairy in the next city - they'll be guaranteed to drink it all up!

It is probably illegal to sell it here too, I haven't seen any farms advertising it, I went ahead and asked the Amish Farm that I get eggs from, and I keep my mouth shut locally about which farm that is. I really like being able to get it, and at $1 a gallon, they must have a lot of extra too.:D I forgot that you are living right, .....no close neighbors...:yes4:

[TEX]

I've thought about it, but it's a 32 mi round trip just to get to town. And diesel here is $3.00/gallon right now. AND - it's illegal in Colorado to sell raw milk. I think I'm just going to can up a bunch of it for pies, puddings, etc., and freeze as much cream as I can so we'll always be able to have butter, and make lots and lots and lots of cheese. And, if I'm still swimming in it, think I'll go get 2 bottle calves from the dairy in the next city - they'll be guaranteed to drink it all up!

Pat, don't you have pigs. I thought lots of people fed excess milk to pigs or did I imagine that?

[pcrowder]

Our closest neighbor has 4 kids, so I'm hoping to be able to unload some on them. I desperately need to get the cream separator from my friend too (the one loaning us the grooming chute) because nobody seems to be fond of whole milk. I ADORE the taste of it, but it's what I grew up on! I can remember my mom draining the cream off the bottles of milk that the milkman left on the stoop. Everybody I know drinks 1% or 2% at the most, and I can't hand-skim the milk well enough to get that much cream off. Oh well, I will keep working on it. if nothing else, I can "can" up a bunch of the milk and save it for winter in case we have any orphan calves or goats. I don't know how much nutrition is lost by the canning process, but as an emergency measure ANY milk is better than none!

[pcrowder]

Pat, don't you have pigs. I thought lots of people fed excess milk to pigs or did I imagine that?

Yeah, I've been thinking of that too. I just hate to give such yummy, creamy, delicious milk to the pigs...

[CapeCMom]

We drink whole milk too! I really don't like 1 or 2% but will drink it if I have to. That's one reason I don't like powdered milk. Thank goodness I have stocked plenty of chocolate and strawberry syrup if we have to use it in an emergency!

Do you have plenty of room in your freezer? I've never heard of canning it, sounds interesting.

[LJH]

... I think I'm just going to can up a bunch of it for pies, puddings, etc., and freeze as much cream as I can so we'll always be able to have butter, and make lots and lots and lots of cheese.

I've never tried freezing cream. What's it like when you thaw it out?

[firegirl969]

I fed my extra goat's milk to the chickens and pigs. They loved it and it was nutritious for them. It also saved bunches of $ in purchasing animal food.