Shoot holes in this,,,,long, theoretical

[LeatherneckPA]

The theoretical homestead is constantly evolving. In an effort to avoid unnecessary “learning mistakes” I would appreciate your input and suggestions. Please consider this your opportunity to assist in the planning and evolution of a truly diverse and sustainable homestead.

As some of you may remember, this whole thing started with a dream of about 5 acres, a few chickens, and a couple of goats. But everything I read about small farms and sustainability emphasizes that diversification of critters is a big key. So I've started adding flocks/herds as ideas flit into my head.

I am now at the point of at least 20 acres, preferably 40-60. Some running water or a pond would be nice. A 16'x24' guest cabin where Cindy and I will live while I build the 1800sq ft main house. Assorted outbuildings as needed.

As I said, we started with a small flock of laying hens in mind, say 6-10. Then I started thinking that it wouldn't be that much more work to add about 50 birds for the freezer. Work them in as 2 or 3 separate crops spread out over the year.

And of course, our goats. Probably Oberhasli, as they are on the watch list for the breed conservancy. It started out as 2 for milk, and maybe to play with making cheese. This has grown to somewhere between 6-12 for lots of cheese. The whey would be fed to the pig(s). The wethers would become freezer fillers. Does would be rotated in one or two a year, and the rest sold off for dairy goats somewhere else.

The pigs will probably be either Gloucester Old Spots or Red Tamworths, both of which are on the watch list for the breed conservancy. Originally I was thinking of buying piglets at spring auction, but I've been thinking lately of keeping a sow and selling off her excess piglets. They are supposed to be wonderful for inclusion in a rotating pasture plan.

My dear wife has become infatuated with the fiber arts. She talks about wanting to spin her own yarn and make stuff from it. So a few sheep have crept into the picture. Probably Southdowns or some other smaller breed from the watch list. Come to think of it, a lamb or two in the freezer wouldn't be too bad either. Besides which, they are supposed to be good pasture companions for the cows as they both eat different stuff. Doesn't make sense to me, but then I'm thinking of the cattle/sheep wars in the old west. Let's say 6-12 sheep.

Which brings us to cows. A couple of small beefs in the freezer each year would pretty much fill out the menu. Milk would be used almost entirely for calves and pigs. Again I am leaning toward smaller, more manageable sized critters. Something like Highlands, Dexters, or Devons. A cow, a yearling for the freezer, and a calf.

And this is where my imagination really gets the reins in it's teeth. A couple of smaller draft horses to do the farm hauling, logging for firewood, and pulling the wagon to town now and then. I'm leaning toward Fjords, but when my imagination runs away with me I keep coming back to the image of a pair of hitched American Cream Drafts. Two mares and a stallion. Breed one mare each year and sell off the young.

All of the breeds on this homestead would be selected for their ability to thrive on forage and second for breed conservation. With the inclusion of a large garden and a small orchard we would be able to put away most of the staples for a family of 5 or 6 for a significant savings. But what if we wanted to make money with this farm also?

Some of you may remember that I have a rather lengthy drive to work, 70 miles. This gives one a lot of time to think, and thinking can sometimes be dangerous in such a fertile and flighty mind as mine. Take yesterday, for instance. Don't ask me where the idea came from, but all of the sudden I'm running the possibility of raising holiday turkeys “under contract” for pre-registered clients. Sort of like a CSA.

Now I'm fairly certain that I don't want to start large scale gardening to support a CSA. But how about applying the same concept to raising livestock to provide natural meats to more conscientious consumers? I've checked Eat Wild and there isn't a farm within 50 miles of me that is doing this. And I live less than 10 miles from a population center of 30,000. I would consider that a sizable market. I'll have to find a processor, since I have no intention of getting into that end of the work. Better yet, a list of processors and the clients can take their livestock straight there from the farm. (Or I can, for a fee.)

But, as I haven't even bought the land yet, and most of you have much more recent experience than I (it's been 33 years since I milked a goat) I figured I'd try to make this a community effort, where I can benefit from your experiences. After all, the wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

[WileyCoyote]

Don't want to shoot holes...
your thoughts are interesting. I too am thinking a lot about what we need and want in our self-sustaining homestead. I am more of a selfish bent - want what's best and easiest for ME, not necessarily conservancy of a breed. My theory is based on (like yours) if it can forage and help sustain itself, it is of far more value (speaking per my Darwinian bent) than a breed that needs more catering, care,and more constant support. This translates into a stronger and more viable breed as well as one less prone to the expense of disease and defect.

I don't understand the goats and cattle. A good milk and meat breed cattle if you have the space to me would seem to make the goats redundant. Could you reason this for me please? I have a friend who started raising goats and there was a problem with the breed - we had to milk the nannys, then pasteurize the milk for the kids according to the breeder. There was something in the breed's milk that would cause a weakening of the knee joints and cripple them as they grew older! It was a real drag. Eventually she ended up selling the goats before they would get to be a year old to local hispanics for barbeques. There was not a large market for goat meat or goat milk or cheese locally. It was no fun milking stubborn and fussy nannies, heating the milk, keeping the kids separate, then feeding the kids (at one point we had 14!) via bottle four times a day! Those little buggers' hooves HURT! LOL

I know that the Whole Foods people are constantly on the lookout for organic produce and meats of all kinds; they are persnickety and rightly so for the clientele they attract. If that is your interest to sell to a chain, or you can take their knowledge and experience for your own. They only locate in higher-educated areas, because most undereducated people don't utilize 'organic' foods, price being a prohibitive factor. Witness the rise of ChinaMart. So that may also determine your clientele availability and response as well.

As for horses, I am interested in Clydesdale/Percheron/Belgian breeds. Some crossing with a Morgan would be acceptable. Smaller, lighter horse breeds (to me) in the main are simply too overbred and not suited for real work any more. Plus I am an 'adopter' - and currently there are hundreds of the larger breeds available on www.Petfinder.com due to the failed Premarin medical experiments, some with foals. We are looking at Hansen Wheel and Wagon http://hansenwheel.com/ for possible buckboards and a sleigh if we cannot find one locally available when we move and get settled, or if we need to go elsewhere for traces, etc. I used to care for and train Palominos, walkers, and other smaller horses, and I despised them eventually for their high-strung natures. I prefer staid workhorses with even temperaments.

Back to the cows. Not only for milk and meat, but for the breeding, I think I would want at least two cows and a bull to grow the herd. Having "only what I need" can result in costly problems, if one cow gets sick, dies, or doesn't 'take' the first or fifth time. I can always butcher an overflow, I can't always buy a new one.

Ditto on the chickens; I started with seven and a rooster. Seems like they would all pick times to go off laying or to brood at the same time! This would cut me short on eggs (I had a little business on the side of 'free range brown' eggs that did well until the chickens decided to go on strike). I later had 25 bantys and a rooster that kept things going much more productively. Again, I can always butcher too many.

I've thought about the softer side with the knitting and the loom; but that takes a lot of time and effort to turn wool into clothes and so far I haven't had the time to go thru all of the procedures required. I probably won't indulge in it, simply because I don't think that, unless I have enough of a herd to make a difference, it would be a time-consuming hobby, as well as a costly to maintain herd, without a whole lot of final output. Maybe if you had some nicely haired goats you could have ones with a double purpose? Just thinking out loud.

SouthernGent has recently made me think about rabbits, too - I like rabbit fur and it might be worthwhile to look into that.

Again, we are planning to move and expand our acreage and our interests too; so while some of my minor experiences might be germane, many of my big plans may be unworkable!

[elh]

Keep in mind most farmers/ranchers i know don't want to own all the land, just what joins theirs. :o

[AlchemyAcres]

I'm not going to say anything to discourage you, there's nothing you've stated that can't be done, it's happening every day....that's not to say there won't be challenges...there are major challenges no matter what route you take.
Show me 10 different farmsteads or homesteads...10 different families (obviously) with similar goals, everything else being as equal as possible and after a couple years i'll show you 10 vastly different results!!!!

But how about applying the same concept to raising livestock to provide natural meats to more conscientious consumers? I've checked Eat Wild and there isn't a farm within 50 miles of me that is doing this. And I live less than 10 miles from a population center of 30,000. I would consider that a sizable market. I'll have to find a processor, since I have no intention of getting into that end of the work. Better yet, a list of processors and the clients can take their livestock straight there from the farm.

We did that for several years...i helped a friend on his seasonal pasture based dairy for 6 seasons....we also grew pre-ordered chickens, a few turkeys and some grassfed beef...up to 1,300 chickens and about 100 turkeys were the most we did in one summer.
We processed all the chickens and turkeys ourselves.

~Martin :)

[Deberosa]

Check out my thinking about taking a step back post. ;-)

We've had the same thoughts but here is where I am finding things fall apart. First - are you going to continue to work or are you figuring this will be self supporting? If so when? If you are working full time this is pretty much impossible.

My dreams have gone very parallel to what you are talking about during my commutes too! I was further motivated in that until July I really disliked the work I was doing. But I was finding the time and probably more importantly money were limiting factors in me moving forward very fast. It was frustrating.

I think you are right on in that a setup like you are talking about would take at least 20 and 40-60 acres. Trouble is by the time you find that much land that's usable plus put a house on it - and a barn - and a workshop, and a driveway, and a well, and a septic and fencing and a greenhouse, and and and.... you are talking lots of time and/or money. It takes years and I get the impression you are not much younger than Kurt and I...

Here is the other thing - if this is to be your support then you may find yourself driving to doing alot of stuff you really don't enjoy just to get by. I was getting so I started resenting homesteading more than enjoying it!

Kurt and I took a small farms class through the local conservation district a year ago and I got to tour some people working through sustainable farms. For vegetables only they had about 20 acres and a fair amount of hired help. For livestock they did pretty much themselves, but 40 acres. The grass fed poultry, beef lamb and pork is big although she said lamb was not as profitable - she just liked them. ;-)

However, we did not find anyone doing both - maybe a few chickens and veggies but I didn't see anyone doing both livestock and veggies successfully as a business.

There is one farm that raises Galloway Cattle, has a few chickens for their own eggs, has Adalusian horses and then she also grows Rhubarb, peonies (the flower) and some berry bushes. I found the combination intriguing and asked her how she came up with it. She had carefully assessed each crop/animal based on her requirements. Galloways fit what she wanted - she sells the animals and the pasture raised meat (and yes they all do the mobile butcher because of the huge number of regulations make it prohibitive even if you want to do your own for sale). But she chose Rhubarb and Peonies because she found a market in Seattle, she liked growing them and Deer don't eat them so she didn't need fences!!!! The berries where a side thing just because she liked them. THe horses were her husband's project. So the choices are very personal indeed, but notice her plant crops took very little care in combination with horses and cattle. There is only so much of you to go around unless you bring in some illegal alien cheap labor. ;-) (If you don't go that route you have insurance and taxes, and regulations and reporting!!!!! even if you pay the same!!!!)


For draft horses, there is so much training and maintenance... It's a really cool idea but they don't come cheap either and then there is all of the tack, and then you probably should have a horse trailer and then a truck capable of pulling the trailer and the "attachments" - not much different than a tractor! Getting good stock of the animals you listed would be expensive! Let alone their housing and care. And when you mentioned upping the chickens to 50 - well I've been there!!! I just had the conversation with Kurt last night! We have these 50 buff orpington pullets and they are eating me out of house and home!!! Then there is the dark cornish we have - and 12 need to be butchered soon and I sit in a hotel room in San Diego. GRRRR! I think my turkeys have blackhead - this winter has been rough - lost one Tom yesterday and the other is not looking good so there goes my turkey venture. GRRRR!

All I can say is good thing I don't depend on this for a living!

The pressure to do it all is great - but I have been hit over the head with reality this year - and I managed to get a job working from home! Even making a good living it's expensive to keep things going and keep growing! Just fencing and food is huge!


Now I tell you all this to share my experience at this, not to discourage you but let you know what we ran up against. I am selling a bunch of pullets starting next week. We are putting the next batch of 12 roosters into the freezer ASAP! I will need to start with turkey chicks again this year and fence off a separate area for them from the chickens, especially in these damp nasty winters even if they have shelter. I need to finish the fencing for the cows.... etc. etc. etc. I talk about what I hope to get done on my blog at deberosahomestead.wordpress.com

As for the livestock - think about dual purpose kinds of breeds. Dexters where my choice but that's only because I carefully thought about what I wanted to accomplish with a cow and that was the closest match. I can't have goats here because of rhodies, thought about milk sheep but the cow won out. Still wasn't cheap to get good stock even at a deal! Just like with a dog - think about what you want to accomplish and then find the breed to match. As for saving some breed or other - that's noble and I think that could be a primary consideration but not the only one. For instance - I wanted to only go with non hybrid tomatoes and other seeds and now I think I cheated myself out of any productivity. I am going with hybrid tomatoes this year, but I am sticking with Red Bourbon turkeys and Dark Cornish Chickens. It's all a very personal decision.



I think you need to get the place and really let it evolve based on what you discover and what "speaks" to you. I lost that touch with all of the noise to make money and do it all. Find your own comfort level on your own schedule. Anything you do will be better than nothing!


Anyhow that's my two cents with change, rambling as it is (had a couple glasses of wine at office get together!). ;-) This is a great topic!


Debbie

(Egad just reread this and sound like a real wet blanket but I am going to leave it for now!)

[WileyCoyote]

Now THAT was a heckuva post, Debbie! ROFL don't apologize - you clarified a lot of what I was trying to say.

Thanks for the link to your blog, too - was wondering how the Dexters were doing. ;D

[LeatherneckPA]

I want to thank all of you for your responses. It is exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for.

As I said, we are starting with tractored chickens in the backyard this spring. That and the garden should keep us busy for the next 3 years or so, until we move onto the land. At that time we will add our first goats.

Debbie, your analysis was very insightful. I will have the good fortune to be able to be retired and pensioned at the time. I turn 50 this summer, don't know how that matches you and Kurt.

Martin and Wiley if I have to do my own processing I believe that will knock it down to only one money animal, just on the basis of time alone.

Based on what I am reading here so far I think what I'll do is add an animal one year in family use numbers, then possibly increase the numbers the next year if I like the animal AND the way it is working out.

Using that plan a new animal would be introduced about every third year. The primary focus being to enjoy the homestead and the animals. Making money off them will be a secondary consideration.

[Deberosa]

Yep, we are early 50's (at least I am - Kurt is "older"). ;-)

[flatwater]

My wife and I are in our 60,s and were planning on leaving the farm and going remote and off grid. A lot of our friends are saying that were to old and why would we leave the comfort and great farm we have now. I just tell them , because we can. Live your dream because it only comes around once. There is no such word as failure in a dream sketch. Plan to succeed and you will . It already looks like you have done your planning well.
Flatwater

[WileyCoyote]

LOL I am 50 and my VSO is younger - by three months! Yet he is "all broke up" and I am still lively and obnoxious and going strong... even with my lupus and arthritis and a host of little pains and gripes.

We have lived quietly (more or less) for 25 years, raising the kids and getting involved in changing our little corner of the world. We always told the kids not to count on "taking the kids to grammas and granpops to watch" because life was too short to be sitting in a rocking chair watching the world go by!

I want to be like the guy I met at the Hot Springs several years ago. He was 87 and plowed the driveways and sidewalks "for the elderly" in his little town. I plan on being active til I die, exploring new worlds, boldly going... oh, wait, that's from something else! LOL

What I DO NOT want to become is the little old lady in the nursing home, staring at that cute little male nurse's rear - and not knowing WHY. :o