Garbage can wood stove?

[jake]

Hi there,

I currently live in an attached brick rowhouse, which is about 100 years old. Currently use natural gas to heat. I think the house has a chimney somewhere walled in, behind the drywall, hasn't been used in many years. Am probably not comfortable using that chimney actually...these houses are so old, you have to be very very careful of fire.

I am concerned about how I would stay warm in the winter if we lost our natural gas heating...and it's freaking freezing in the winter where I live!

While I could and may buy a woodstove, I have not done so yet...not everyone is on board yet with my preps, if you know what I mean. Let's just assume for sake of argument that I had to create my own wood stove and could not buy one.

I was wondering about the feasibility of creating my own homemade woodstove out of new garbage cans, if I was ever forced to come up with a quick heating solution. I envision using two garbage cans, a smaller one inside a larger one, to contain the fire (the fire is in the smaller one, the larger one is another safety guard around it). I would cut holes in the smaller garbage can with tin snips maybe 4 inches from the bottom to provide air intake, but not let too many ashes fall out into the larger can around it. Would have the metal lid on the larger outside can, but not the inside can. I guess I would cut a square door into the side of both cans in the same place in order to feed in firewood. A metal stove pipe or other metal pipe would go through the top lid, and be vented out a nearby window (the pipe would be held away from the window by going through a piece of wood with metal center of some sort that blocks off the top part of the window, sort of like how you block off around an air conditioner, kind of.

The whole thing would sit on several patio stone squares to provide both insulation from the floor, and some fireproofing. It would be well away from anything flammable in the room.

I also wonder if this could be used right outside my house, like those new wood furnaces that you often see nowadays. I guess I would have to figure out a way to move the heat indoors in that case, as well as to exhaust the smoke and fumes.

What do you think of this idea? Would it work, or would I just burn my house down? :)

(obviously I would never attempt this unless I was completely sure it was safe! I just want to get your feedback on this idea).

Thank you,

Jake


edit: I just found this link, good info! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justa_Stove

[DiggingDogFarm]

Hi there,

I currently live in an attached brick rowhouse, which is about 100 years old. Currently use natural gas to heat. I think the house has a chimney somewhere walled in, behind the drywall, hasn't been used in many years. Am probably not comfortable using that chimney actually...these houses are so old, you have to be very very careful of fire.

I am concerned about how I would stay warm in the winter if we lost our natural gas heating...and it's freaking freezing in the winter where I live!

While I could and may buy a woodstove, I have not done so yet...not everyone is on board yet with my preps, if you know what I mean. Let's just assume for sake of argument that I had to create my own wood stove and could not buy one.

I was wondering about the feasibility of creating my own homemade woodstove out of new garbage cans, if I was ever forced to come up with a quick heating solution. I envision using two garbage cans, a smaller one inside a larger one, to contain the fire (the fire is in the smaller one, the larger one is another safety guard around it). I would cut holes in the smaller garbage can with tin snips maybe 4 inches from the bottom to provide air intake, but not let too many ashes fall out into the larger can around it. Would have the metal lid on the larger outside can, but not the inside can. I guess I would cut a square door into the side of both cans in the same place in order to feed in firewood. A metal stove pipe or other metal pipe would go through the top lid, and be vented out a nearby window (the pipe would be held away from the window by going through a piece of wood with metal center of some sort that blocks off the top part of the window, sort of like how you block off around an air conditioner, kind of.

The whole thing would sit on several patio stone squares to provide both insulation from the floor, and some fireproofing. It would be well away from anything flammable in the room.

I also wonder if this could be used right outside my house, like those new wood furnaces that you often see nowadays. I guess I would have to figure out a way to move the heat indoors in that case, as well as to exhaust the smoke and fumes.

What do you think of this idea? Would it work, or would I just burn my house down? :)

(obviously I would never attempt this unless I was completely sure it was safe! I just want to get your feedback on this idea).

Thank you,

Jake


edit: I just found this link, good info! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justa_Stove

Metal Garbage Cans as a stove?

Bad idea!

Zinc fumes are toxic!

The metal is way too thin to be safe.

If it were me and I wanted to sleep comfortably at night without worry, I'd get a real stove - avoid the Chinese junk!

[DavidOH]

Metal Garbage Cans as a stove?

Bad idea!

Zinc fumes are toxic!


Ditto !
Don't use a galvanized garbage can.

[jake]

ahhh... now I know, thank you.

Any other ideas for improvised wood stoves for indoor use?

[kawalekm]

Jake, don't waste your time trying to re-invent the wheel. The truth is, the stove is going to be the cheapest part of a wood heating system, so don't get hung up with trying to save money there. Here's a pic of a cheap stove that I bought from a neighbor for 100$.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/kawalekm/FederalAirtightWoodstove.jpg
What I ended up doing though is attaching 850$ worth of stove/chimney pipe to this 100$ stove. Did that so it would be safe and to code. Helps me sleep at night.

There are many, many stoves you can get cheap off of Craigslist. Bought another one to act as a backup if the first stove ever failed. Payed 65$ cash for that. What I really recommend you do is focus your attention on obtaining quality piping cheap rather than focus on the stove. You can easily upgrade your stove sometime in the future, but it's much, much harder to upgrade your piping!

[bookwormom]

I don't know if it is still around, but Vogelzang had an inexpensive kit to convert an oil drum, fifty gallon or smaller, into a very efficient woodstove. I have seen one in a woodshop, works well. there is even a way to cut off part of the top and install a flat metal surface so you can do some cooking on it.

[DiggingDogFarm]

I don't know if it is still around, but Vogelzang had an inexpensive kit to convert an oil drum, fifty gallon or smaller, into a very efficient woodstove. I have seen one in a woodshop, works well. there is even a way to cut off part of the top and install a flat metal surface so you can do some cooking on it.

Chinese garbage!!!

[tomato204]

One option if you lose your natural gas heat is to have stored some propane tanks, assuming you have suitable storage for them. They can't be in the house, so a rowhouse might not be good for that unless you have a secure shed or something similar.

[NCLee]

Jake, I have the #BX26E wood stove in my shop. Bought it new back in the days when it sold for $125. Added the wood grate for it at the time I bought it. It works fine. In fact, it works too good. It's actually too large for my small work shop.

On another note, I know a fellow who heats his larger shop (auto repair) with a stove made from one of the barrel kits. It does a good job for him. I've seen these setup for indoor use, too. YOU DO HAVE TO KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING TO USE ONE OF THESE SAFELY. Can't stress that enough. You have to have all the recommended clearances, protection of the floor beneath it, well supported flu and proper roof clearance.

Link to the stove and barrel kit. http://www.vogelzang.com/browse.cfm/cast-iron-stoves/2,7.html

BTW, around here used box stoves in decent condition sell for around $50 - $100. As do "laundry stoves". These are small 2 burner wood stoves that look like a miniature cook stove. These do work well for backup for cooking and do provide some heating. The downside on these is that because the wood pieces are small, they have to be refilled fairly frequently.

FWIW, I recently finished restoring one. Have another one waiting for restoration. And, yet one more that I may just leave, as is. Doesn't really need a lot of work.

In an emergency, you can take out a good sized window. Cover that window with metal. Cut a circle out of the metal at the height you need to run a flue through it. Cut it to fit as tightly as possible.

Pipe goes up from the stove to an elbow. Another section runs from the elbow through the hole in the window to another elbow. This one turns the pipe from horizontial to vertical again. Run high enough to clear the height of the roof. Add a rain cap.

Flue has to be secured with metal strapping, sections put together with screws, and ALL CLEARANCES maintained.

All that said, here's my advice. :) Find the chimney(s) in your home. You may have fireplaces behind that drywall. If you're willing to do some drywall repairs, it should be fairly easy to find out what's behind it. Several different ways to probe, including cutting some small holes, usng a sharpened piece of clothes hanger wire in a drill, and more.

Once you determine what you actually have, get a professional to inspect it for you. Your chimney's may be fine. They may need some simple repair work. They may need to be relined.

If the results of the inspection are within your budget, go ahead and do what's needed to make them safe. Get your stove and put it into storage, along with everything else you need to operate it.

Being cold and hungry will quickly change minds when the actual need arises. Don't think I've ever seen anyone turn down something hot to drink, when they get cold enough. May only take a couple of days of suffering from a routine winter storm to change some minds. Then, you'll be ready. :wink:

Mentioned all of this, as something to consider. Usually there's a way to solve a problem, especially if you can "think outside the box". Do all of your homework before you start this. Research local regulations, insurance regs, physical clearances, how to use wood stoves, etc. & etc. The more you do this the more likely you are to find a solution that will actually work for you and your circumstances.

Sorry for rambling on so much. Hope some of this helps. FWIW, as often stated, one of my goals is to have as many ways to cook, as possible. As a side-bar to this, heating comes into play, too.

Lee

[jake]

Thanks everyone for your detailed responses, very helpful. If I do try to make a homemade stove, I will be VERY careful! Will look for an older stove first though. This was more of a brainstorming exercise in the feasibility of making everything myself, if I had to.

[backlash]

Why would you loose your natural gas heating?
I used to loose power and phone and cable TV but never gas.
Just wondering.
There are a lot of portable propane heaters available.
Just make sure it is approved for inside use.
Maybe something like this.
http://www.summitcampinggear.com/colemanheaters.html

[jake]

This is a "worst-case scenario" question...there are a number of different events that could cause a temporary to long-term shortage in natural gas. Well, not a shortage in the gas itself, but in the resources needed to get it to your home. I may heat my home with natural gas, but plenty of oil is still needed to keep the infrastructure machine running, so that it actually gets here. I admit that this is an unlikely scenario though. I just like to think of all the potential vulnerabilities I might face in a crisis scenario, and solutions to them. I would rather ask a dumb question on this forum then have to be forced by necessity to figure it out for myself later! :)

[175lt2]

This is a "worst-case scenario" question...there are a number of different events that could cause a temporary to long-term shortage in natural gas. Well, not a shortage in the gas itself, but in the resources needed to get it to your home. I may heat my home with natural gas, but plenty of oil is still needed to keep the infrastructure machine running, so that it actually gets here. I admit that this is an unlikely scenario though. I just like to think of all the potential vulnerabilities I might face in a crisis scenario, and solutions to them. I would rather ask a dumb question on this forum then have to be forced by necessity to figure it out for myself later! :)

I don't know how how far you are from the gas source so there may be a pumping station or something that could fail when TSHTF.
I do know where I live in western PA there lots of gas wells and the gas comes out of the ground at high pressure there are points along the line where the methyl mercaptan is added, that's the stuff that makes the gas smell bad, and places where the pressure is regulated down to your household pressure but the system is basically self sufficient.
The big problem would be electricity, Even a modern high efficency gas furnace needs plenty of power to run.

[machinemaker]

you might do a search on rocket mass heaters on youtube or at permies.com. Paul Wheaton who posts videos here on this forum has put some interesting stuff out on youtube. You could build one in your basement and adapt the idea into heating mass, bricks, blocks, etc. that you could then house in a duct to feed back into your duct work for you existing furnace.
kent

[NCLee]

This is a "worst-case scenario" question...there are a number of different events that could cause a temporary to long-term shortage in natural gas. Well, not a shortage in the gas itself, but in the resources needed to get it to your home. I may heat my home with natural gas, but plenty of oil is still needed to keep the infrastructure machine running, so that it actually gets here. I admit that this is an unlikely scenario though. I just like to think of all the potential vulnerabilities I might face in a crisis scenario, and solutions to them. I would rather ask a dumb question on this forum then have to be forced by necessity to figure it out for myself later! :)

Jake, you're on the right track! Not only for heating but also for everything else that can be a problem if we can no longer rely on "modern" conveniences and distribution methods. Take a look at the bills you pay each month. What will you do if you no longer have a water/sewer bill because the system has shut down?

Next, think about your reliance on your backup plan. What happens if that fails, too, for some reason? Where possible, put several backups of your backup in place. Often, it's simply a matter of learning the how-to and maybe collecting a few simple supplies. For example, if your water backup is a commercial filter, another backup is a tin can, clean cotton rag filter and a way to build a fire. Backing that up may be solar treatment (clear 2 liter soda bottle placed on a roof in the sunshine). There are others.

There are NO dumb questions asked on this forum. You said it well. The only dumb questions are those not asked. Not only from the standpoint of having to figure out things for yourself. While you may figure out the how-to, if you don't ask the question, you may not learn that you need a 5 cent thing-ah-ma-gig to make it work. After asking the question, chances are you have it in your stash of stuff for whatever.

Keep dem questions coming!

Lee

[annabella1]

Here's a link to a BHM article for building a wood stove from a barrel and you don't need a kit:
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/matthews78.html

[NCLee]

Annabella1, when I saw your post on the home page, clicked on it to say don't do that. :) Then, I realized yours is a reply to a thread that's been around for a while. :o

But, I'm glad I did for altogether different reasons. My reply is now Thank You! When I finish this post, I'll be busy adding this info to my DIY Library. And, adding it to my to-do list, too. In this case, it's better to make one of those now, while materials are available, than to try to scrounge up the stuff when the need is dire.

A comment on the grate. An alternative to the legs on the grate is to use bolts or threaded rod, nuts and washers. Cut the expanded metal to fit. For a circle, use 3 bolts, positioned as if making a 3 legged stool. To attach to the expanded metal:

Put a nut on the bolt. Set the bolt upside down and position the nut at the height desired for the grate. Drop on a washer, then the grate. Next, add another washer. Finally add a second nut to secure the assembly. Do this 3 times for the "legs". Using 2 nuts makes the height adjustable. The two washers securely hold the expanded metal in place.

Choose the size and length of the bolts to match height needed and that'll give good support, but not be too large to go through the mesh. Then, pick flat washers and nuts to fit the bolts. If the bolt is too long, cut off the excess with a hacksaw, after height of the grate is finalized. It won't hurt anything to leave the bolts extending above the grate.

FWIW, I've used this method for making grates used in the backyard. Also have used other materials for the grate. The best material, IMHO, is castiron charcoal grill grates. Using a hacksaw with a metal cutting blade, these can be cut to fit. The next best, is wire cooking grates for any type grill. Cast iron lasts longer than expanded metal or the wire grates.

Another grate option is to drill aligned holes on either side of the drum. Insert rebar, cut to length. Use gaskets and stove cement to seal. This won't be as pretty, as the ends of the rebar will stick out each side. However, the rebar can be replaced and re-sealed, as needed.

Don't think it was mentioned in the article. Put about an inch or so of dry builder's sand in the bottom of the stove before use. This will help insulate the bottom of the stove. Both in terms of protecting the floor underneath from damage and to help keep the bottom of the stove from burning out too quickly. When removing ashes, leave the sand and replenish as needed.

In closing, again, thanks for posting the link. Much appreciated here, as my goal is to have as many ways to heat and cook as possible.

Lee

[copperbrown]

I read the article where did david vent his stove in his tent and how would any one do this in a shed or workshop ect... could this be used in a house as a source of heat cooking without a chimney?

[NCLee]

Copperbrown, any time you have wood burning, you have to have a way for the smoke to leave. Often, with house fires, smoke inhalation is the cause of death, not from actually burning in the fire.

Here's one option that can be used in an emergency. Get what you need, in terms of supplies, before hand.
Edit: This is the way I installed a wood stove in my workshop. Been using it for 10-15 years out there, without any problems.

Somewhere in your home, where you have adequate clearance for your stove, choose a window that can be removed. The window opening has to be large enough to provide clearance, too.

Cut a piece of sheet metal to fit the window opening. Attach to the opening with screws. Set your stove in place. Including the insulating material you'll use for the floor. Put your flu on the stove, a section at a time. When you reach the height needed, add an elbow. Then add another section(s) of flu to reach the window opening. (You may have to cut flu sections to make everything fit, as the final step). Where the flu touches the metal covering the window, cut an opening in the metal. This opening should be as close as possible to the size of the flu.

Oh, forgot...... install a damper in the first section of pipe. That's needed to control the burn rate of the wood in the stove. You'll use that in conjunction with the damper in the side of the stove in the article.

Put a collar on the flu and extend it through the opening. Add another collar on the outside. When you are far enough from the outside, to give adequate clearance, add another elbow. Now your flu is going up. Add enough flu pipe to clear your roof line. Ideally the height of your flu should be about 3' above your ridge line, for the best draw (draft) of your stove. To finish the parts of the assembly, add a rain cap. If nothing else is available, these can be made from auto hubcaps.

Now you have all the parts, needed, and the inital assembly steps completed. Put these into storage, along with screws to connect the flu pieces, stove gasket and cement to seal any gaps, and non-coated clothesline wire to secure your flu to protect from the wind. Eyebolts and or heavy duty hog wire staples can be anchoring points for your wire.

If the need arises, take out the window, setup your stove, and build a fire for heating and cooking.

All that said, :) once you've made or acquired your stove, put a section of flu pipe and an elbow on it, temporarily. Set it in the backyard and learn to use it, if you don't have any experience with working with wood fire. Pick a nice day, when the wind isn't bad (you have a short flu for the trial run) to learn to use your stove.

Build a small fire at first. The sole purpose of this fire is to cure the finish of the stove and to burn off the residual chemical odor. A small fire works best for this. Next, if your goal is to also cook, build another small fire and try to boil a pot of water. Practice with at pot of water, until you learn how to control the fire. It's a combination of draft control, the amount of wood and the type of wood being used. No point in burning a pot of beans, until you have that mastered.

Then, use your stove to actually cook on it. Nothing wrong with making a pot of coffee in the backyard. Nor, learning to bake bread in a dutch oven on top of the stove.

If you have a way to protect the stove from the weather, there's no reason to put the stove in storage until TSHTF. Simply incorporate use of it into your routine backyard cooking plans. There's more to backyard cooking than grilling a few burners and dogs. :wink: Just store the rest of the things needed to bring your stove indoors, if it becomes your alternative heat and cooking solution.

FWIW, I grew up using tin wood heaters, which are very similar to the one in the article. Those heaters have been banned from commercial sale, BTW, because of what I'm about to say.

In closing, it's IMPORTANT to learn about clearances needed, adequate ventilation (fresh air intake to replace the air that goes up the flu), floor protection, etc. before putting one of these to use in your home. They can be safely used, but can also kill and/or burn the house down, if not done correctly. Do take the time to learn the how-to both in terms of installing your stove and using it.

Hope this helps.
Lee

[oldtimer]

Ah, Jake, everyone in your row of houses would love you for setting the block on fire. I agree with whomever said don't reinvent the wheel. Get a decent stove, even if it's an oldtimer, at least it's made to be a stove but just as important if not more so is the flue. You have to have a good way of venting that stove. Old brick chimneys are often dangerous and you can burn down a house. Anything saved on heating expense or just "keeping warm" is negated when you warm yourself one good time while the house burns down.

Many a person has burned down the house because they didn't have a decent chimney.

[CarolAnn]

There is so much more than learning about just the stove to heating with wood! Even though I grew up in a home that heated with wood and thought I'd have no problem with it in my own home, I did some incredibly stupid things that could have killed us and/or burned the place down.
Here are a few, and as dumb as these are, I'm not admitting to the REALLY stupid stuff!
1. Burned green wood (It not only is hard to get going, it tends to make a lot of creosote, which can coat the chimney and ignite later. Chimney fires can ruin your day!

2. Decided to save money on chimney cleaning by whacking the pipe with the poker to make the creosote (from the green wood) fall down. The creosote eventually not only burned out the elbow, but the pipe loosened to the point where one late night whack brought the thing down. Getting the burning wood hauled outside, airing out smoke in an already cold house - I don't even want to think about it again.

3. Bought wood from a shyster who shorted me, then tried to get him to refund the money or bring the rest of the rick. I'm a gal. He was a guy who didn't have any problem with hitting women. (big "Duh" moment there - but still dangerous in it's way!)

Things to consider are - after the stove is installed, where will you store the wood? Where will you dispose of the ashes (which can be a considerable pile!)
Are you prepared for the mess of bark and chips in / ashes out?

[land steward]

They used to make cheap things called pot bellied stoves. They were made out of tin. When they got hot they turned red then white. Similar to your garbage can idea but even they were dangerous. Around here we call them hippie killers.

My advice is you will find yourself alot colder after the house burns down. I would check at a recycling depot. People are always throwing away stoves that dont pass insurance criteria.

[annabella1]

Here's another BHM article that takes the barrel stove idea a step further with making a heat sink with rock and a chimney damper from a halogen light fixture.
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/lee108.html

[NCLee]

They used to make cheap things called pot bellied stoves. They were made out of tin. When they got hot they turned red then white. Similar to your garbage can idea but even they were dangerous. Around here we call them hippie killers.

My advice is you will find yourself alot colder after the house burns down. I would check at a recycling depot. People are always throwing away stoves that dont pass insurance criteria.

Land Steward, one of the things about being in this community is the opportunity to learn more about our regional differences. :) Around here a pot bellied stove is something quite different. It's made from castiron and will last for a 100 years, if only slightly abused.

We call the ones under discussion "tin heaters" around here. They were made from thin sheet metal, the same metal as an old fashioned single wall stove flue pipe. Yes, they could be quite dangerous if people were careless and didn't know how to use them.

Found out a few years ago they've been banned :mad: when I tried to buy one at a store that once sold them. Used to come in a variety of sizes. I wanted a mid size one to put into my stash of stuff for whatever.

Grew up when "tin heaters" were the norm. Back then, po folks and many in what we call the middle class, today, simply couldn't afford cast iron parlor stoves to go with their cast iron cookstoves in the kitchen. A tin heater only cost a few dollars and would last for several years (or longer depend on fequency of use).

At this point, I could go into how to safely use tin heaters, but there's no point, since they are no longer available (to my knowledge). They are like so many other things. A few problems (in relation to the total that were in use) allowed big brother to step in decide what was best for us. I can't think of many things that aren't dangerous if not used as intended.

Paper will cut you.
Pencil will poke out an eye.
A bar of soap can kill in several different ways.
The list can go on for a few miles..............

Sure, it's just plain common sense that the better quality/construction/design, etc. of today's high efficiency wood stoves are best. However that comes with a price, that often can't be justified when the money just isn't there to purchase them. If it is a choice between food on the table and sitting beside a high end woodstove, the choice becomes relatively simple. Put food on the table and use more common sense with less expensive methods to contain a fire.

Even though I've been living with central heat since 1966, I still miss being able to warm my hands near a "tin heater" and then turning my backside towards it to warm the rest of my body after coming in out of the cold. One of life's little pleasures that's hard to explain to anyone who's never experienced it for themselves.

Land Steward, thank you for letting me use your post to sound off on this subject. Even though it's been several years now, I'm still :mad: because I can't buy a "tin heater" to put in the den, if the need ever arises. The smallest version would fit perfectly in our bathroom to put a little comfort in there, too. Big brother won't let me take the personal responsbility that comes with their usage.

Lee

[NCLee]

Here's another BHM article that takes the barrel stove idea a step further with making a heat sink with rock and a chimney damper from a halogen light fixture.
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/lee108.html

Thanks for the link Annabella. I'll be adding this to my DIY Library. There's some good info in it.

Quickly skimmed it and will go back for a more in depth read.

Couple of things jumped out at me based on the quick review. They may not apply when I re-read, so take these comments with a grain of salt.

(1) The stove should be centered on a wall and not in a corner for maximum benefit.

(2) Noticed a couple of times about a hot fire to heat the blocks/rocks. Agree with that up to a point. If the fire is too hot too often, it will quickly burn out the metal components of the stove. The fire should never be hot enough to turn the walls of the barrel red. Sure, it's going to happen once in a while. Do it often and the barrel will fail. Failure appears to be harder to notice in this arrangment.

(3) More emphasis needs to be placed on the fact that the wall behind the stove is concrete. Lack of clearance from the walls was the first thing I noticed when I saw the pictures. Personally, I'd take a different approach from this aspect.

The stove would sit further from the back wall. More blocks would be placed behind the stove to provide additional heat sink. By placing the stove tight against the wall, that allows some of the captured heat to radiate into the area on the other side of the wall. (May or may not be a good thing.) By using a stand alone heat sink behind the stove, more heat will be radiated back into the room where the stove is installed.

Having a longer flu between the wall and the stove also allows more of the heat to be captured in the room. Yes, there's more potential for creasote buildup with cooling flu gases. But, based on my experience with wood stoves, it won't be material for a 3' run (for example). Burning hardwoods and a little annual maintenance will take care of the small difference a short extension of the pipe will create.

(4) One mo. :) I'd leave a little space in front that's clear of rocks. Gotta have a place to keep a pot of hot coffee or a kettle for water for instant coffee, a spot of tea, or once in a while some hot chocolate.

Again, thanks for the link. I want to go back and take a closer look at the concept of the flue cap.

Lee