Is thriftyness unpatriotic?

[fnfredux]

The US WAS a thrifty nation. Any nation's wealth is based on the individuals that make up that country being able to PAY the "national" debt.
YES. the government IS SPENDING (or rather wasting) YOUR MONEY.
The GVT WILL take it from you one way or another, devaluing your money or raising taxes or both.
They decrease in personal wealth and the corresponding INCREASE in personal debt has caused the world to wonder if we CAN pay off what we owe (both personal and GVT).
Therefore if we paydown debt and SAVE money, it seems as though that would be GOOD for the US.
Yet our GVT keeps encouraging spendin, both on an individual level and and on the GVT's part.
Our GVT's debt SERVICE (as in interest payments on former debts) now amounts to 37% of the GDP.
I guess that's where they got that 37% formula for the mortgage bailouts.
So, that is like saying 37% of your income goes to your house payment. @ 50K that's 18K, now you have 32K on which you pay taxes, SS, Medicare, FICA and various sundry state local and property taxes... after all that you have 22K to spend. UNFORTUNATELY now gas is back to $4.10 a gallon X 100 gal a month, *so there goes another 5K, down to 19K, your heating costs (for most Americans) rise along with the cost of fuel to to say 2k a season, now you have 17K, car ins, life ins house ins, all together around 3.5K now we're down to 13.5 K. A modest car payment of $250 another 3K, down to 10.5K, a family of four and growing kids you NEED new duds from time to time, about 2K minimum, (we don't count on the thrift store here 'cause the GVT never uses it), down to 8.5K. OH, NO! I forgot to add in the health care premiums, maybe you have a UNION job and they only cost $150 a month, now we have 6.7K, Susie braks her arm you need to pay your deductable (up to 2K) *and you each need a visit to the doc. That'll come to 2.1K, still 4.6K to the good, looks like you might be able to save, but wait, you have those pesky CC bills,(average more than 8K) with that debt service to pay. Let's say you have a 12% rate, that's 2% of the principal, or $160 a month PLUS 12%(now I'm not compounding) or $960 or a MINIMUM of about 1.2K a year.
Now you have 3.4K left.
Buy your groceries, have an occassional meal out, see a movie, take the kids to an amusement park, drive a couple of hundred mil;es to visit Grandma on the holidays, buy birthday gifts and Xmas gifts...
go ahead TRY it on $3400.00 a year.
OR do what the GVT does and keep running up debt.
But sooner or later you must pay up, or declare bankruptcy.
When that happens you pretty much lose EVERYTHING.
Think about it.
What happens when our GVT(US) cannot pay for our needs AND continue to service our debt, becuase that's what the national debt is OUR DEBT.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Banking/creditcardsmarts/P74808.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/financial/reports/citizens_guide.pdf


Seems to me a GVT that had the best interests of its CITIZENS in mind would practice a little thriftiness rather than continuing to throw money at problems created by too much CREDIT, instead of spending MORE and telling its people to do the same (spend more).

[leera]

Interesting thoughts.

The way our nation has been set up,based primarily on manufacturing of goods,and consumption of goods.......the only way for the economy to keep growing is for people to spend money,even if they are spending money they don't have(debt).

We're at a point right now where people aren't spending,people are in debt and losing those things that got them in debt,the economy is crashing.We are a nation based on cash flow,which right now isn't flowing......

The GVT is going to urge people to spend,spend,spend,take out loans,etc.because that's the only way to keep an economy based on consumption alive.

So is thiftiness unpatriotic? Maybe.

However in the current crisis our nation is in,it's becoming a needed survival skill.

The GVT bases expenses on a certain income level,many people fall below that level and get along just fine.Why? Because they have learned to live on less,consume less,and need less.

If a median income in my area is considered 150K. Where does that leave me with mine and hubby's combined incomes of less that 42K? Certainly not in the range that the governement survey's that's for sure.

BTW it costs me $250.00 a month for health insurance,$112.00 a month for car insurance,plus we have all the normal utility bills,rent,etc.....Sure doesn't leave much at the end does it? We get by,by being creative.I shop primarily thrift stores,go to church freebie days,use double coupons,and don't have a car payment,and very little other debt.

The main skill I have learned while reteaching myself to live on a cash only basis is budgeting.When you spend more than you earn,eventually it catches up to you,when you spend wisely,and plan,you can manage to get out of debt,pay things off,and hopefully find your way to a level of living that is comfortable for you.

[mom]

It's a double edged sword it seems. They say the economy is in crisis because everyone lived beyond their means and then they tell you the problem won't get fixed fi no one spends. Damned if you do and damned if you don't

[GoodDaughter]

Bingo. And you know what? I don't have the extra money in taxes for bailouts to give them. I JUST DON'T HAVE IT. And I'll be double d***** if I am going to go get a job (which will incur even more FICA and SS taxes on whatever paycheck I get) just to pay this increase in taxes!! Take my house? I'll burn it to the ground first. Put me in jail? Hell yes, let's go! I'll kick back for a while, read, study, heck maybe even get my PhD like I've always wanted to. Come out destitute with nothing? Oh, like they would intend to leave you UNdestitute and WITH something? I know better.

The incoming government's plans to penalize those who succeed and redistribute their (MY) money to crack heads and baby-mommas and illegals and deadbeats just burns my backside!!

Go cash, declare little or nothing. To heck with the incoming "administration" (and I use the term only VERY loosely) They do not have MY best interest in mind, nor the best interest of the country at large; the ONLY thing they have in mind is their socialist, near-communist and dare I say (yes, I dare) class-envious agenda. Screw 'em. I'm too poor to carry anyone's burden but my own! >:(\

Rant off.

[flatwater]

I hear you gooddaughter , there was one time I was so poor I couldn't even pay attention. let alone pay my bills. Our national , state , county and city governments alow you to make just enough money to keep you in dept. If you get everything payed for they have little control over you. Try not to leave any paper trails.
flatwater

[madmac]

GoodDaughter and flatwater, you both hit the nail on the head. I am sooooo close to being out of debt I can see the end. I am not buying anything but nesesities. Nothing, nada and I live frugal now. Have not used credit in four years. Four years ago I was 26,000.00 dollars in credit card debt. Had a morgage and a car payment. Sold the house, bought a fifth wheel, sold my Harley to pay off some of the bills and have been busting my butt to make all that debt go away. I am not taking the governments advice on spending. I already tried that and the only one bailing me out is me. Not complaining as it was my fault but I am not going down that road again. Gonna buy another house here pretty soon but I will be in good enough shape to pay it off in a few short years. We just got a hosting position at a gun club and next June my only bill will be for food and clothing. I guess I am unpatriotic as well but loving it.

[Wyobuckaroo]

"If thriftyness is unpatriotic"---- Then I have done my very best to be public enemy number 1 for many years now. And intend to be more so in the near future.

And I don't care what anyone thinks........
Wyo

[pcrowder]

gooddaughter: boy, you summed up what I've been feeling, but have been so angry I just couldn't put it into words! D/h and I are self-employed and work 7 days a week, PLUS we have a work-farm (it is NOT a hobby farm - hobbies are fun, farms are WORK!) with livestock. We scrimp and save and try to struggle along, and no matter what we do, the damn gov't wants more and more. I, too will NOT give them any more. d/h said that we will turn down work if we have to, but we will NOT let them shove us into a higher tax bracket just so they can take money away through higher taxes, etc. 'Course, between the bailouts and the stimulus checks (which we did NOT get any of!), now the new "administration" is talking about much higher energy bills and fuel costs and etc...I don't know how ANY of us are gonna make it! I remember the 1970's with the oil embargos and food shortages, and I'm afraid that what is coming is going to be 500 times worse. What did we ever DO to deserve what's coming? Oh wait - we all WORKED

[GoodDaughter]

I guess because we worked, we wanted something decent for ourselves, and not to live in squalor, we're bad, we're greedy.

And boy howdy, does the government, from the city all the way up through state and feds, lay on taxes and regulatory fees and permit fees and even permit fees for the cotton pickin' dumpster >:( When I had my business within the city limits of Houston, I even had to pay the Houston Police Dept. a fee of $100 a year. What for, I asked? I pay taxes, a portion of which I understood went to the police dept. Do you think I ever got an answer? When the little snot with the shaved head came to collect it because I had not gotten the bill for the 'fee', I asked him exactly what the 'fee' was for. He said I could call and ask. I smirked and told him I understood well enough...it was 'shakedown' money, like the mafia makes people pay so they will leave you alone. I held the check in my hand and escorted him to the door of my business, whereupon I put it in his hand and said 'leave'. *>:(

I too am self employed, and it's a shame how someone like me with a dinky little business that brings in somewhere around 20K a year is 'taxed' so heavily. And the SS self employment 'tax'--don't get me started on that!! >:( >:( *

I think in a lot of ways, government lays on so much taxation *in all it's forms, is to drive the small companies out of business. Less work for the government, and less expenditure for them if they don't have to deal with a zillion mom-and-pop businesses. They can screw the money out of the megacorps easier I think.

And then this Obama nitwit talks about 'growing' the economy, and 'growing' small business. All buzzwords, all baloney. He doesn't want to 'grow' anything but his money-taking programs. His cockamamie $3000 small business hiring incentive is just plain stupid. I guess he thinks we 'little guys' clinging to our guns and religion are too dumb to figure out the economics of it for small business people.

I'm not going to work any more for the government, I've decided that I'm taking care of myself. Does that make me unpatriotic? I don't think so, I'm very patriotic. I love this country, what it was founded on, and that we have always been the country that stands up for ourselves and for others when they can't--France during WW2 for example. The U.S. went in because it was the right and the good thing to do. My family came here from communist Europe in 1918, escaped by the skin of their teeth, so they could have a better life. The other side of my family came from Ireland during the revolutionary days so they could make something of their lives, because they had no future in what was still a 'feudal' country.

I just can't give away any more of my labor when I know it will be squandered by the incoming administration. Not used wisely, but squandered.

[pinetreefarm]

What everyone here has said very eloquently is true. Our feelings and our facts are true. The government is no longer a Constitutional government. It is now "them" and "us".

I am with you guys. We have been debt free for many years. We have lived very frugally but not going without the amenities for lo these many years. We bought our home with a 15 year mortgage and paid it off in 9 years. Our cars were cash and one credit card paid off monthly with no interest.

We determined years ago that Social Security would not be there for us when we got to be 65. Well amazingly, it was. We planned our retirement very carefully and so SS is just a benefit. However we know that medically our care is restricted rather in the triage system. We would have preferred to provide our own medical insurance but alas...no...the government speaketh.

We do not spend unnecessarily. The "stimulus" check went into savings. lol If that is unpatriotic, then so be it. Obama wants people to work under compulsion for a given number of years. If that isn't the cake. They want you dollars and now they want your time, all this in exchange for what.....more government! Bulls*&t.


Carefully stepping down from soapbox,

Pine

[MNMOM]

Terrific posts! I don't think I can add anymore that hasn't been said.

[Catalpa]

Ditto, MNMOM. I especially appreciated (and agreed with!) GoodDaughter's post.

[GoodDaughter]

Pinetree, you really hit the nail on the head--it's not a constitutional government anymore. Reagan must be spinning the dirt out of his grave! Obama said he was going to 'fundamentally change' our country---and apparently doing away with our Constitution and Bill of Rights seems to be top of their list. Silly us, how can we expect to live in under a representative government when we have the likes of this Bojovik thug governor in Illinois? OH yeah, I want the MOB running things. Obama's cozy with every one of them. And now, horray, he's to be president. Those 'representing' their constituents are just using the figural and literal office of representative as a front, just like the mafia uses offices as fronts for concealing their crime.

As for their little scheme to have everyone work for the government by 'volunteering' ::) ...well, I'll be rude and say they can kiss my big hiney. Are they going to pay me for the projected 100 hours a year (works out to about 2.5 40 hour work weeks) while I am volunteering? I wonder how people are supposed to overcome a net loss of 100 hrs./year income while they have to put gas in their cars to get to their 'volunteer work'. Who's going to pay that money lost that would have gone to pay their electric bills, and groceries? Ya think the electric company will not turn off the electric or that they will get their groceries for free? Oh, they'll just be good little 'sacrificers' and 'sacrifice' (at gunpoint so to speak) if they want to or not, and uncompensated to boot. >:( Sorry, it's not going to happen for me. Again, if they demand incarceration, I'll plan on getting my Phd. while serving time.

I really need to stop ranting about this. It just gets my goat because Obama's whole empire is going to be built on forcing people to do things by legal coercion, and by financial punishment for success, and advancing people who have no skills, no experience, nothing real to offer except that they are 'entitled'. I only hope and pray that the upcoming congressional elections will be enough to get the house back in Republican hands and that whatever terrible damage is done to our country and to our allies can be undone when Obama is out of office. IF we make it that far.

[Shamrock1121]

We were watching another portion of the DVD series on John Adams last night. I was watching Dr. Benjamin Franklin and recalled this thread. I believe he was thrifty AND patriotic. ;)

"A penny saved is a penny earned."

"When the well's dry, we know the worth of water."

"God helps them that help themselves."

"Pay what you owe and you'll know what's your own."

"If you would know the value of money, go try to borrow some; for he that goes a-borrowing goes a-sorrowing."

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-Karen

[bassntrout]

Consumerism is what this country is based upon. The government wants us to spend . . .

Check out this article:

http://divorceddadfrugaldad.com/2008/08/31/are-you-unamerican.aspx