Buy Made In China?

[John_P]

There seem to be a number of people who object to purchasing Chinese-made products. On the radio, Laura Ingraham is quite adamant that we do something unpatriotic when we buy Chinese made products. I find this a fascinating discussion, and wonder what the majority opinion is here about this. Bear with me while I present my observations and thoughts.

1. The foundation of capitalism is the free market, a central tenet of which is that a free, and mostly unregulated, market is the most efficient means by which resources can be allocated. I am a firm believer in the truth of that tenet. I observe that many people are capitalists, until competition causes them personal harm (such as competing labor lowering wage rates, or imported goods selling for less than domestic goods.)

2. Competition is painful for the loser, but it is a good thing for humanity overall, because it contributes to a rise in overall living standard. Competition drives innovation and the efficient use of resources. To put a point on a silly example, the first automobile manufactures represented awful competition to buggy whip manufacturers, but in the end everyone benefitted except those whose livelihood was tied to buggy sales and use.

3. Many, many Chinese-made products are of first-class quality, produced using the most modern equipment in state-of-the-art factories.

4. Yes, most labor rates in China are still at poverty levels, by our standards, but they are rising. The labor cost advantage now enjoyed by Chinese producers is slowly decreasing and will not last forever as living standards in China rise. One can argue that it is immoral to buy products from manufacturers paying poverty level wages, but that is specious. The children of those low paid workers would be dying of starvation on slum streets without those low paying jobs. In that sense, we are helping them by buying from their employer.

5. Yes, there are Chinese government programs that help manufacturers compete (such as the undervalued RMB that our politicians often wail about), but the primary source of the finances to fund those programs is a tremendous rate of accumulation and saving of wealth in China. The Chinese show a lot of fiscal discipline that we and our government do not show. Instead we fund endless useless "job training" programs, and pay $800 per day to Blackwater private security guards while we pay our own soldiers $100 a day. Which government is acting more in the interests of their own people? (I am not sure).

6. You now enjoy a lower price for just about every hard good that you buy as a direct result of the efficiency of Chinese producers, and the competition they impose on Western producers. You enjoy these lower prices even if you are fierce in your resolve never to buy "Chinese".

If we stopped all Chinese imports, or if we all permanently boycotted Chinese goods, the OVERALL standard of living in this country would decline - A LOT. When you went to buy school shoes for your kids, you would find yourself paying $50 per pair, instead of $19.99, for the same quality. When you went to buy a laptop PC for your new college student, you would pay $1,200 for it, instead of the $600 you pay now. How far would your budget stretch? What would you actually like to give up to keep all manufacturing at home?

The free market system WORKS. It works wonderfully. But if we like the benefits that come to us as a result of a healthy and free economy, we will probably sometimes have to endure the pain that comes to us a result of new competitors doing it better, faster, cheaper than our current employer. Those new competitors are performing and responding in the EXACT way that free market supporters envision that free markets should work, even if they are way over in China.

One important caveat worth mentioning is that if the Chinese are harming the environment, their people, or their customers with their processes, that is something we should NOT support and should not stand for. There is certainly some evidence that these things have been done. Our elected government needs to put mechanisms in place to punish Chinese industry for these transgressions, and there is more recent evidence that the Chinese are sensitive to world opinion and are making some positive changes.

Other than the concern mentioned in the last paragraph above, I think you can aid your efforts at living frugally by buying Chinese products, and you can do it with clear conscience.

[AlchemyAcres]

I truly enjoy the garbage products and the feeling of accomplishment knowing we're helping make China's modern form of Communism a smashing success!!!

Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside!!! ;D

~Martin

[AlchemyAcres]

And doesn't this belong on the politics board?

~Martin

[Deberosa]

And doesn't this belong on the politics board?

~Martin
Well, since it's not in politics I'll be pitching in my two cents. ;-)

I think the problem is that the beaurocrats regulate domestic producers to death so that it's costly to produce the same item here. THen they import the junk with barely a regulation!!!!

Let's take a toy - a domestic manufacturer would have to meet all kinds of regulations and licensing before putting a toy on the market, but you can import a toy full of lead from China no problem so they can make the "same" thing for a fraction of the cost!!!

I think the toy thing and the poisoned pet foods are instances that might start to turn the tide of cheap Chinese stuff. People are going to start thinking that maybe cheap is not better - maybe owning few things of quality is a better idea. I only hope it happens before the US quits producing everything! I think we are getting close to the point that all China has to do is stop selling to us for a couple of months and this country will be damaged worse than any terrorist attack that can happen.

So when it makes sense I will buy something made in China, but if it's some kind of non-essential item I just skip it all together and save a bit.

[gardenfay]

yea, i think politics, current events, something like that.

[flatwater]

There is a little truth in what all you say but don't blame the Chinese , their just taking advantage of our stupid gooberment. And for those that say they would never buy anything made in china. Well then don't buy a Chevy , Ford , Dodge , and why stop at China ? What about Japan , Korea , bangledesh , Russia , India. Take a look at the tag in all your clothes. I guess the best way to not buy anything foriegn would be to go naked and walk where ever you go without shoes. No socks either. Although I still believe in unions , I think a lot of them have priced their own people out of work. Don't kill me I'm just the messager of a humble opinion.
Flatwater

[ryanmercer]

" 3. Many, many Chinese-made products are of first-class quality, produced using the most modern equipment in state-of-the-art factories. "

Gee I didn't know putting date rape drug in children's toys, lead in "lead-free jewelery" and lead in the paint on just about every product is "first-class quality"

[machinemaker]

I on ocasion by a cheap chinese tool at harbor freight, but it sure isn't first class quality, but at a quarter of the cost, I can keep an extra set of tools in each truck or look at cheap-o right angle grinder as disposable. you get what you pay for and you reap what you sow.
kent

[John_P]

About Chinese quality, sure they make a lot of junk (just look at every plastic toy for sale at Walmart), but some of the most modern and capable machine shops in the world are in China. Need a 22-foot diameter bevel gear for your mining excavator? The Chinese will make it for you, custom order to world class standards, at the lowest price around.

Doubt if any readers of this group need that kind of machine work, but many of us will buy knives as a self preparedness step. Ever look at a K-Bar, Cold Steel, or Columbia River knife? First class quality, and all made in China. It’s the same with computers and flat screen televisions. Most all made in China, and the best quality you can buy (at a reasonable price). Same with Nike and Reebok running shows - all made in China, at least as far as I can tell. If you think the Chinese only make junk, you must be ignoring a lot of contrary indications.

About the forum, this sure seems like a "frugal living" topic to me if some are trying to convince folks stressed by a tight budget that there is something unpatriotic or immoral about shopping at Walmart, where 90% of everything for sale comes from China. Most of us probably can't get very frugal these days without turning to Walmart for some needs.

The angst over this is understandable. Americans are the best at many endeavors, and we have classically been the best at business. Even though American businessmen still are among the best in the world, it is hard to accept that a bunch of “Chinese peasants” can do anything better than we can do it. So we fall back on the disparaging arguments that they only make junk, and they can only do it because they pay workers slave wages. Those things are just no longer universally true.

In the long run, we will all be better off if we let every market operate freely. Your dollar is your vote. It is your right to vote against China, but I am willing to speak out in defense of those readers of this forum who need to shop at Walmart to stretch a tight family budget.

[AlchemyAcres]

For every good product, there are countless others that are contaminated with toxins, just plain dangerous or nothing but garbage!!

A dose of reality...

Fake diabetic kit alert

http://www.asianpacificpost.com/portal2/pageView.html?id=ff80808114994add01149976dd9b000f

1 million cribs sold in U.S. recalled

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20907633/

NZ tests find formaldehyde in Chinese-made clothes

http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/20/2009811.htm?section=business


Hamleys pulls toys over lead fear

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6953490.stm

China Pays Steep Price As Textile Exports Boom

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB118580938555882301.html

Throw-away toys, throw-away lives

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/citizensweekly/story.html?id=8c2541b7-aad7-4201-9269-45dce5b956f2

Soylent Red - Tainted food from China

http://www.westernstandard.ca/website/index.cfm?page=article&article_id=2657&pagenumber= 1

Some Baby Bibs Said to Contain Levels of Lead

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/15/business/15lead.html?ei=5065&en=f309598d7e544a06&ex=1187841 600&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

The Next Big China Import: class action product liability law suits

http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/daily-brief/2007/08/02/the-next-big-import-lawsuits/

Official Report Says Sub-standard Food Items Produced In China

http://www.nasdaq.com/aspxcontent/NewsStory.aspx?cpath=20070704\ACQRTT200707041228RT TRADERUSEQUITY_0341.htm&

Warning over Chinese food imports

http://www.thelocal.se/7687/20070624/

Shell Chemical plant struggling with substandard Chinese parts

http://stevejanke.com/archives/231918.php

Wider Sale Is Seen for Toothpaste Tainted in China

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/28/us/28tooth.html?ei=5090&en=a00a39144f0b11b4&ex=134068 3200&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=print

Accident Raises Safety Concerns On Chinese Tires

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118278927863547228.html?mod=djemITP

In latest scare, China finds fake veterinary drugs

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20070621-0346-china-health-animals.html


China shuts down 180 food factories

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Business/wirestory?id=3320191

Toy contaminated with 'date rape' drug pulled

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/08/toy.recall/index.html

In China, Farming Fish in Toxic Waters

www.nytimes.com/2007/12/15/world/asia/15fish.html

Products from China Continue to Harm American Consumers

http://seattle.injuryboard.com/class-action/products-from-china-continue-to-harm-american-consumers.php?googleid=14597

Pet Food Toxin Said To Be Common In China, Melamine Commonly Added ...

www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/30/health/main2740043.shtml

China exports lead poisoning...

www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56056

Holiday Lights and Christmas Trees May Contain Lead.

http://www.checnet.org/healthehouse/education/articles-detail.asp?Main_ID=700

China's toy sweatshop pays 36 cents an hour

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59309

Chinese gov't not to blame for infected hard-drives?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58819

New York sushi tainted with mercury.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57376

Poison children's PJs from China (formadehyde)

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57245

Latest China scare: Don't eat the ginger

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56923

Latest China food scare: Don't eat pickled veggies

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56603

Contaminated Chinese products that FDA discovers are often shipped again!

http://sunspot.mercedsunstar.com/?q=node/3090

The Chinese Communist Party Way of Dealing with Illegal Manufacturing Practices

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/7-9-22/60022.html

China - Nation in grip of unrestrained greed

http://news.therecord.com/Opinions/article/246233


Smile! ;D We're saving money nowwwww!!!!! :P

~Martin :-X

[blackpowderbill]

GREAT links AA, I'll post them on my blog.


Look at the place I work at. They only manufacture 2 items now everything else is made some place else and China is one of them. Yes the inventors of the computer mouse and a whole host of other items they never did anything with. http://www.orientaloutpost.com/images/veg.jpg

I started telling people when China runs its course like Japan has back in the 70's, that Africa be the next big maufacture. LOL

Yea sure, that continent can barely get out of the 4th century.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/media/soafrica.jpg
I read the EU is pissing a fit because of a flood of China's imports into their "perfect system" of snobness.

Yes the competition is keen with legal slave labor. Bet if any u.s. corporation was to box up kids in a community to work in a factory *line like China does..OH MY ~can you imagine the street marches demanding civil rights.

The only way to buy American now days is to find a hooker.

[John_P]

AA, although I doubt the truth of your statement that for every quality Chinese import there are “countless” others that are contaminated, toxic, or garbage, you are right to try to warn people about the potential hazards of imported products. If even one person is harmed, that is way too many, but “countless” is a really big number - and “countless” times just the number of good Chinese products I have personally seen is an unimaginably huge number.

Some of the above headlines are sensationalized (an emotional issue sells newspapers, and scary-for-effect sells newspapers), but people should be well educated about the products they buy.

It is a legitimate (one of the few) and important related function of our government to assure the safety of our supply of food, medicine, a stuff exposed to children. But our bloated government performs that function miserably, and not just related to Chinese imports. We need to demand better. We also need to put pressure on Walmart and the like to assure that the environment, workers, and customers are not harmed by the stuff they sell.

The issue you raise is quite different from those (not you) who try to label as “unpatriotic” or “guilty” those who buy Chinese imports. The people who read this forum deserve to be protected, but they also deserve not to be unjustly branded unpatriotic or guilty.

[MorningWalker]

By the looks of it you are trying to justify why you buy chinese goods more than anything else.

#1. Capitalism works against countries using capitalism. They flood the market with cheap products, insuring the loss of higher paying American manufacturing jobs that cause American Sheep to purchase more Chinese product. Cheap products are the direct result of #5 and the complete lack of Enviromental, Health, and Employment laws. If the RMB was allowed to go to its real value and their manufactures had to abide by every regulation that American manufacturers must follow, they would not have even 20% of the market that they currently have.

All I have to say, if you want to buy Chinese made goods, fine. But don't try to justify your actions with false statements that have no basis on fact. I've been over twice now working with a manufacturer trying to teach how to make a very simple product to "lower" our over head, I know what I talk of.

Personally, I will spend the extra few dollars to buy a truely "first rate" quality item that will last and have guarantees that are backed by that quality instead of a cheap replacement cost. You trust someone across the ocean to make the cheapest product for you, I will trust my nieghbor to build the best, we'll see who is better off.


MorningWalker

[flatwater]

MorningWalker
What kind of a car do you drive?
Flatwater

[1lifetolive]

After Fighting Korea, Viet Nam and the Cold War with Russia In the name of stopping the the spread of communism , Why would OUR government give China favorable trade status?

[AlchemyAcres]

By the looks of it you are trying to justify why you buy chinese goods more than anything else.

#1. Capitalism works against countries using capitalism. They flood the market with cheap products, insuring the loss of higher paying American manufacturing jobs that cause American Sheep to purchase more Chinese product. Cheap products are the direct result of #5 and the complete lack of Enviromental, Health, and Employment laws. If the RMB was allowed to go to its real value and their manufactures had to abide by every regulation that American manufacturers must follow, they would not have even 20% of the market that they currently have.

All I have to say, if you want to buy Chinese made goods, fine. But don't try to justify your actions with false statements that have no basis on fact. I've been over twice now working with a manufacturer trying to teach how to make a very simple product to "lower" our over head, I know what I talk of.

Personally, I will spend the extra few dollars to buy a truely "first rate" quality item that will last and have guarantees that are backed by that quality instead of a cheap replacement cost. You trust someone across the ocean to make the cheapest product for you, I will trust my nieghbor to build the best, we'll see who is better off.


MorningWalker

Well said!!!


~Martin :)

[AlchemyAcres]

After Fighting Korea, Viet Nam and the Cold War with Russia In the name of stopping the the spread of communism , Why would OUR government give China favorable trade status?

Money trumps virtue!

Anything goes as long as somebody can make a buck and get away with it.

America is selling out to communist China.

This country is becoming predominately a bunch of dependent rogue communist regime enabling consumers, circulating billions of dollars through communist China, instead of a country of producers.....
We may be all smiles because of the great deal we got on that 3-pack of flimsy-assed flyswatters for a dollar....flimsy enough to be next to useless and therefore headed for the landfill in short order, along with countless other products that are junk.....meanwhile the guys with the really big smiles..the dictators of communist China are suckin' it all up ...buying gold, cranking up their war machine and building wealth in other ways.

America the great dumping ground, now that's something to be proud of!!!!


~Martin ;D

[Txanne]

Just received a large shipment of Disney infants clothes--ALL made in China--they are on recall ----lead paint in the screen print of the front of the shirts--Winnie the Poo.


Flatwatre--I too lay at the feet of the Americans and the unionization of work forces the out sourceing of ourgoods--

We got greedy---the unions got greedy--they had a huge lobby before the whitehouse golden boys.

True indeed that a laboroer is worth his hire---equal pay for equal work----But we shot ourselves in the foot--


AA---as usual--the wise and knowledgeable one.


Txanne

[bee_pipes]

I have enjoyed watching this thread and trying to stay out of it, but you folks have sucked me in…

It’s not that our own government has sold out our industries to foreign interests, or that the Chinese (and other producers) are sending inferior (and lethal) products, or that the masses of people in the towns and cities are flocking to Wal-Mart to buy cheap products and perpetuate the cycle. The real problem here is that, as a country, we are losing our self-sufficiency. I realize I’m preaching to the choir here, but the very thing we prize holds little or no value to someone living, say, in a small apartment in New York city or other major metropolitan center.

Government seems to be run by business interests. These may have started out as American businesses, but many of them (like Wal-Mart) have become transnational corporations that no longer have an allegiance to this country. They are on the world market and go where the profits are. Their only loyalty is to the stockholders, and even that’s tenuous. What’s good for their business is not necessarily good for our country. If they send money and resources overseas, they should not be treated the same as a business that has vested interests in the well-being of this country. Outsourcing jobs is a good example – they should not get the same breaks provided to businesses that keep jobs at home. The result is that we have a mass exodus of jobs to foreign countries.

That the foreign manufacturers are sending us shoddy and dangerous products should come as no surprise. Our folks do the same thing. The reason we have laws and regulations about that sort of thing has evolved in response to poisonings, injuries, and other liabilities incurred by manufacturers. I agree with a lot of people that it has gone too far many times, but the process is one of contention – two opposing parties fighting for their view. Maybe someday we can find a way to stop frivolous lawsuits, but until then it’s our only recourse. This has reduced the incidents of our manufacturers from dumping dangerous products on our markets. Likewise, labor unions didn’t just arise from laborers wanting to get rich off the fat of the land; they arose from problems with employers. Every benefit we enjoy today – 40 hour work weeks, overtime pay, etc., is directly traceable back to the labor movement of a century ago. A lot of people were killed and injured to get these benefits for us. Remember Matewan.

The real problem with people flocking to Wal-Mart is one of conditioning. We are conditioned to drool at the sound of a blue light special. People on this forum may realize this (recognizing the problem is half the cure) but the guy living in a small apartment in New York city, already dependent on the city for water, power, light, food, etc., is constantly bombarded with this stuff and is as feverish with conditioning as any of Pavlov’s dogs. The really sad part is that a lot of the stuff is junk. As someone mentioned earlier, the pack of bargain flyswatters will wind up in the landfill in short order. Much of this stuff is not needed – we have been convinced that we need it. Walk through any Dollar General, Fred’s, Big Lots or other liquidation type store and take a look around. How much crap do you see on the shelves? Brightly colored plastic thingies – napkin rings, planters, rustic country doodads – no real necessities there. Most of it is junk that you may buy on impulse, or as a cheap gift for someone. No problem – we have been conditioned to just throw it into the landfill when it breaks, proves useless, or gets in the way. If we can’t bear to part with it, we rent a storage place and pile our “treasures” in there. If it is useful – a bic lighter – we discard it when it’s empty.

We can make a conscious effort to not play the game. Only purchase necessities. Buy a zippo lighter instead of a disposable, reuse and recycle obsolete items for other purposes – maybe that lid from the broken washing machine can be used for skidding logs, or the old refrigerator can be used as a battery box for your solar setup. Certainly a use can be found for the motors, pumps or compressors in these old appliances. Personally, I like auctions. Old stuff, made to last, has stood the test of time. The prices are bargains, and the age of the item is the only proof I need that it will last. Some stuff you may have to buy new. It’s better to spend a lot of money on something that will last a lifetime, rather than something that will break after two uses. I am convinced of this. I bought a pair of boots at Wal-Mart last year. They were nice steel-toed high quarter boots for $30. I kick a lot of things while working – to nudge things into position. These boots didn’t even last a month before the soles split (they were glued on). I started looking for American boots – even asked here for suggestions. Finally found a pair and paid over $100 for them. I don’t expect to replace them too soon.

The real danger here is that our country is losing the ability to be self-sufficient. We all know what a problem that is in our personal lives. The bastards we have elected to office have given their allegiance to the big money. They seem to have forgotten the word "enlightened" in the phrases "enlightened self-interest." We still have the vote (until electronic voting machines give the election to the highest bidder). With the vast majority of our fellow citizens living in cities and other high density areas, we have to be doubly vigilant to keep these poor, deluded people from taking our freedoms and pulling us into the game, whether we want to play or not. A good example would be the NAIS and the panic over mad cow. How many more scares do you think it will take before the bulk of the voters fall in line? I wouldn’t put it past the crooks in our government to deliberately sabotage the food supply. It’s well past 1984 out there.

Regards,
Pat

[Southern_Gent]

It's going to be difficult to follow up after that excellent post that Bee Pipes made, but I will mention something that nobody else has. The Chinese industry spends practically nothing on research and development. With all honesty, why should they, when they can either knock-off a product that someone else already spent the time and effort to produce, or entice a foreign company to come in and show them how to make something. Just cut a few corners here and there, use substandard process for producing plastics and vinyls, then sell the resulting product as cheaply as possible to put all other competition out of business.

[bee_pipes]

Ah! Sorry - one last thing - maybe if stuff cost more, we would be more reluctant to buy cheap, thowaway stuff or frivolous impulse items. There again, preaching to the choir....

[John_P]

Pat (bee_pipes),

Your post is thoughtful and interesting. While I understand the wisdom of becoming self-sufficient personally, or as a family, I really don’t understand your contention that the “real” problem is that, as a country, we are losing our self-sufficiency.
When, in modern times, have been substantially any more self sufficient than we are now?

We have never been self sufficient in titanium, mica, zinc, antimony, uranium, or the rubber or petroleum needed to make tires, to name a few. Can you point to any examples where our lack of self sufficiency in these strategic raw materials has ever caused any fearful consequences, except perhaps for rubber in WW2? If we can manage non self sufficiency in these strategic materials, what does it matter if the U.S. is not self sufficient in televisions, plastic toys, socks, or hard drives? Maybe I do not understand your point.

There are certainly some real problems in the U.S., but this doesn’t seem to me to be one of the most significant. It is not practical or possible for the U.S. to be entirely self sufficient, at least not until TEOTWAWKI.

This thread is now getting kind of far off the theme of this frugal living. If you want to post a reply to a more arpropriate forum, I will gladly follow you there.

[Southern_Gent]

We have never been self sufficient in titanium, mica, zinc, antimony, uranium, or the rubber or petroleum needed to make tires, to name a few. *Can you point to any examples where our lack of self sufficiency in these strategic raw materials has ever caused any fearful consequences, except perhaps for rubber in WW2? *


How about the 1973 oil crisis? As the tension between Arab nations and Israel increased, the Yom-Kippur war solidified Arab unity against the West, allowing them to cut production in a unified manner. This resulted in the price per barrel of crude oil to quadruple, producing chaos in Western nations. New York Stock Exchange shares lost $97 Billion in value within six weeks. This further resulted in sudden inflation and economic recession.

To the average US citizen, this equated to increased fuel prices, as well as increased prices to most purchased items. It also equated to fuel rationing, lack of heating oil during the winter, increased company lay-offs and the shutting down of schools and government offices to help conserve. Those hit hardest were the unemployed, aging workers and those living on a fixed income that was unable to absorb the additional cost.

The lesson learned is that those who produce a commodity, especially one so vital to the economy of other nations, have a very valuable weapon to wield in the game of international politics. We are seeing this again, where oil-producing nations are unwilling to increase production so as to drive up the price per barrel. This time the intent appears to be purely financial on their part, as opposed to being rooted in politics. Yet the Soviet Union has been using its natural gas reserves to bully the European Union into political agreements that further benefit the Soviets.

With the United States currently importing around 60% of its crude oil from foreign sources, we are more vulnerable now than ever before to disruptions in supply. Of course giving our own dwindling supplies, it is difficult to become self sufficient in this arena, especially given our current rate of consumption. Not unless some sort of miracle produces an alternative fuel and/or massive infrastructure change to counteract our dependence on crude oil.

[AlchemyAcres]

There are certainly some real problems in the U.S., but this doesn’t seem to me to be one of the most significant.

We're feeding a monster with the potential to make islamo-fascism look like child's play.

Billions, and at the current rate, eventually, trillions of dollars at their disposal to do whatever they damn well please!!!!

Here is the second paragraph of Hu Jintao’s speech as printed in the January 2nd, 2008, China Daily:

"Marxism–Leninism reveals the universal laws governing the development of history of human society. It analyzes the contradictions inherent in the capitalist system that it is incapable of resolving internally and shows that socialist society will inevitably replace capitalist society and ultimately develop into communist society."

What a friendly guy!

We're savin' money now! ;D

~Martin

[flatwater]

I may be wrong but when we had the so called oil shortage in the early 70's It seemed that we had oil and a huge oil reserve but for some unknown reason we were not using our own oil. But getting back to frugal living I think planning is the key. Most americans could cut their fuel bill in half by just planning your daily schedules better. and try and buy things that are natural rather then man made.. I know most of you have heard this before but it is the truth. We have become a throw away nation. Try fixing it if it breaks. If your pants are starting to get to tight , loose some weight.
Flatwater

[BIGGKIDD]

If your pants are starting to get to tight , loose some weight.


AMEN
Larry

[homesteadingnky]

Did you happen to catch the world news tonight about the medicine that's made in China. :o*Couldn't believe the list nor the carelessness of the FDA and those involved in regualting it all! *So sad!

[lplott]

I read some of this, but not near all. I just want to say, I started a while back,

flip it over, 'made in China' put it back and keep shopping.

Thats my motto in a nutshell.

[Cowgirl]

Poison pet food.
Date rape drugs in toys.
Poison drugs.
Poison toothpaste.

I find lots of reasons to distrust anything made by the Chinese communists.

[flatwater]

Cowgirl
That is as much our fault as it is anyones. We are to lax in testing what we get from other countries and to slow to take action when things go wrong.
flatwater

[Cowgirl]

Well, Flat, I don't see the number and level of poisonous products emanating from any other country from which we import, nor do I see the number and level of poisonous products being produced by us. You go ahead and buy Chinese. No skin off my back. I simply choose not to do so.

[flatwater]

I didn't imply to buy chinese I just said that who ever inspects that stuff needs to do a better job.
Flatwater

[DM]

3. Many, many Chinese-made products are of first-class quality, produced using the most modern equipment in state-of-the-art factories.

I've been unable to find any of those chinese products. I guess they didn't send any over this way...

DM

[WileyCoyote]

What is up with you, John P?
John, I really would like to know why you are so enthusiastically promoting China and Chinese made goods.

We are already in a $500 billion trade deficit with China. Yes. 500 Billion Dollars. And it gets worse every day. That is money that we cannot recoup, because - no matter what agreements China and the US have signed - we do not export enough goods overseas to China to make up for what they import into us. Why? Because all of our manufacturers have sought out the cheap labor overseas. The famous names that used to produce high-quality American made items - brand names that you could depend on, like Black and Decker and OshKosh B'Gosh - are now made cheaply, with cheap materials, in China.

In China, testing medications, toothpastes, toys, and fish for poisons has never been a high priority, and isn't now. Why? Because with so many people in their country, and under a communist regime, losing a few hundred or a few thousand people to inherent poisons isn't that big of a deal. How much collateral damage is reasonable and acceptable in America under those conditions? Especially if the collateral damage is your kids or your neighbors?

It isn't going to stop. The area just south of me is developing a port on a river that empties into the Atlantic Ocean. This will be the first (and only) deep water port on the Eastern Seaboard. Why? To bring in all of the big container ships from China.

When we manufacture nothing, create nothing, we become a service industry-dependent economy. This means that we pass the same dollars around, and that they lose intrinsic worth at every pass. While you are proselytizing about Chinese goods, did macro-economics enter into your preaching at all? I think not.

THAT is why I am opposed to buying 'cheap affordable' goods from China. It will decimate our own productivity, and has already reduced us to a primarily consumer-based society. To be quite blunt, the only people who can afford this blatant consumerism, the only people who are keeping this economy's head barely above depression floodwaters, are the illegal immigrants and the entitlement folk, who have far more disposable income than the working Joe. Do they care that their blatant and endless greedy consumerism, as well as the constant replacement of poor goods with other poor goods from China, will eventually cause the collapse of our society, and reduce us to a third world country? Nope. And, I get the feeling that neither do you.