wheat bread not as good as I would like

[debbie-bountiful]

I use hard winter red wheat berries from Honeyville Grain. Large 35 or 50 pound container.
I mill it as a medium flour
I use vital wheat gluton
dough enhancer
honey
oil
milk but I do not scald the milk
egg

I use about 2 cups of white bread flour and the rest wheat. I bake at 350 for 40 minutes.

It just isn't as tasty as I use to make years ago. Is it the berries?

Anyone have a better recipe

I do not have a mixer so this is done by hand and I knead for 15 - 20 minutes.

Thanks,
Debbie

[Junie]

Did you put any salt in it?

[debbie-bountiful]

Yes I added salt. Forgot to mention that!
What I am wondering is if I should have scaled the milk (I used 2percent) or maybe just added more water and forego the milk? Possible a little more white flour but we are looking for as much whole wheat as possible. Should I maybe grind the wheat berries a little more finer than I did? I used number 3 on a scale of 1 - 5 on my Wisper Mill.

I am wondering if I am just lousing as making bread. Made rolls yesterday and followed the instructions but they seemed over baked. My oven has been tested and recipe said 400 for 12 minutes. I am thinking that should had been 350 degrees.

Now for the bread I did do 350 and then used an instant temp which was 200 degrees so it was baked long enough.

Practice is my problem or kneading. How long do you knead wheat bread?
Debbie

[Mike LI]

When I get home I'm gonna dig out Carla Emery's recipe for you. It has never failed me.

[Junie]

I never timed how long I knead bread. I knead it until it's as soft and smooth as a baby's butt. Really, that's how I know it's kneaded enough.

I usually do about equal parts WW and AP flours.

Is your flour 'gritty' when you rub it between your finger and thumb? If so, then you need to grind the wheat finer. If not, it's ok.

I don't scald milk for bread, but I do warm it to about 100 degrees, stir in the sweetener, then proof the yeast in it before adding the rest of the ingredients.

[Mike LI]

Scald 3/4 cup milk
add 1/3c butter
when butter is melted add 1/4c sugar 1tsp salt 1/3c molasses
in mixing bowl 2tsp dry yeast 1 1/2c luke warm water, you can proof at this point if you like

then add the milk mixture

5c whole wheat flour mix well then add enough white flour to make a workable dough.
Knead till soft and workable. Put it in the bowl and let it rise till its doubled in size. Beat it down grease 2 pans split the dough put it in the pans and let it rise again till it's doubled.
put it in the oven at 400 for about 30 minutes

Let me know how it comes out :)

Mike

[TEX]

from the King Arthur site

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/100-whole-wheat-sandwich-bread-recipe


* 2 1/2 teaspoons active dry yeast or 2 1/2 teaspoons instant yeast
* 1/2 cup lukewarm water*
* 1/2 cup lukewarm milk
* 1/2 cup orange juice
* 5 tablespoons melted butter
* 1 1/2 teaspoons salt
* 3 tablespoons sugar
* 1/4 cup nonfat dry milk
* 3/4 cup instant mashed potato flakes
* 3 3/4 cups King Arthur Traditional Whole Wheat Flour or King Arthur White Whole Wheat Flour
* *Use 2 tablespoons less water in summer (or in a humid environment), 2 tablespoons more in winter (or in a dry climate).



Directions

1) Dissolve the yeast in the lukewarm water with a pinch of sugar. Allow it to rest for 15 minutes, till it becomes puffy. If you're using instant yeast, you can skip this step.

2) Combine the yeast/water with the remaining ingredients, and mix and knead—by hand, mixer, or bread machine—until you've made a cohesive dough. If you're using a stand mixer, knead at low speed for about 7 minutes. Note that 100% whole wheat dough will never become smooth and supple like dough made with all-purpose flour; it'll feel more like clay under your hands, and may appear a bit rough.

3) Place the dough in a lightly greased bowl, cover the bowl, and allow it to rise till it's expanded and looks somewhat puffy, about 60 to 90 minutes. Note that dough kneaded in a bread machine will rise faster and higher than bread kneaded in a mixer, which in turn will rise faster and higher than one kneaded by hand. So if you're kneading by hand, you may want to let the dough rise longer than 90 minutes.

4) Lightly grease a 9" x 5" loaf pan. Gently shape the dough into a smooth log, and settle it into the pan, smooth side up.

5) Tent the pan with lightly greased plastic wrap, and allow the loaf to rise till it's crowned over the rim of the pan by about 3/4", about 75 minutes. Don't let it rise too high; it'll continue to rise as it bakes. Towards the end of the rising time, preheat the oven to 350°F.

6) Bake the bread for 10 minutes. Lightly tent it with aluminum foil, and bake for an additional 30 to 35 minutes, or until the center registers 190°F on an instant-read thermometer. Remove it from the oven, and turn it out of the pan onto a rack.

7) Run a stick of butter over the top of the hot loaf, if desired, for a softer crust. Allow the bread to cool completely before slicing.

[debbie-bountiful]

I'll try a few of yours. I've noticed no one using wheat gluton from vital or dough enhancer. Although I think the instand potatos might be the same. Not sure. Why?

I'm going to make it again today.

[CountryBertha]

I've been having trouble, too, and finally figured out it was the white flour causing the problems. I get my white four from the grocery store in 20 lb bags. I've noticed my biscuits just aren't as nice and sure aren't as good as they were.

The way I discovered it was the white flour was when the family wanted homemade pasta. I mixed it as usual, and it turned out to be the nastiest mess I've ever seen -- soupy, then I added more flour and it was a goo. I couldn't believe what I was seeing happen. Finally one day I was talking with a lady from India and she told me she had trouble with American flour. She suggested I buy all my white flour from the India grocery store, which is what she did. Bingo. Everything was fine again after I bought my flour from the India store. She also told me American white flour is pure poison.

Anyway, I discovered a great bounty at that store and not just white flour, but spices, beans and bean flours, top quality rices and soy and all kinds of goodies. It's like Christmas when I go in that store.

[Dame]

Agree about the flour. I have a batch of flour I am using up in gravies, etc. It simply does not make good bread, pasta etc. Switched to a locally milled brand and all is well again.

Last year was a very poor year for milling quality wheat, I would think that the bulk of the flour reflects the poor quality. High quality milling wheat does not need extra gluten.

And as for the "dough enhancer", I use a teaspoon of vinegar per loaf as acid stimulates the yeast.

[debbie-bountiful]

So your saying the wheat berries I bought is the problem? That is bad when I have a hugh bucket of them. I hardly use white flour in my breads and finding an India store would be impossible here. I could order from King Arthur but trying not to spend a ton of money this year. Although, if it is that much better than I will.

[TEX]

There should be no problem with your wheat berries. Try the King Arthur bread recipe that I posted with the potatoes and the orange juice. It really is great bread.

[CountryBertha]

debbie, I always put some white flour in with my wheat flour unless I'm doing the Peasant Breads this bunch likes so much. The white flour makes the wheat bread a little lighter, but these folks have posted some really good options I'm going to try with just the wheat. I also didn't know adding vinegar would help the dough.

I still do a lot with white flour, but it's getting real hard to find good white flour in the stores around here. Where I live we have German, India, Oriental, Mexican and just about every kind of grocery store from any culture you can think of. And they are way less expensive than the American grocery stores and the quality is way better.

Your wheat berries, I agree with Tex that they should be ok unless they came from some really awful place -- like scraped off the dirt in a feed lot or something -- which I doubt they did.

I'm going to take advantage of what these other folks have posted, and hope you do too. Let us know what works for you.

[debbie-bountiful]

I have the recipe TEX gave from King Arthur in the bowl for its first rise right now. I'll let you know how it comes out. I did add some gluton and dough enhancer(not much) so I hope that wasn't a bad call.

[debbie-bountiful]

Well the bread is very good. In fact very good. My husband like it very much. I am wondering if the orange juice or the potatoe flakes made the difference.

One problem I had and never had before is that the loaves were ugly and fell in the middle some. Did it raise too much. I am also wondering if the added vital gluton and dough enhancer was a bit much. Although, I used very little of each at least compared to what I had used before.

TEX do you use either? I also double the recipe because when I make bread I like two loaves. Especially this time of the ranch work.

Anyway, King Arthur's recipe is much better than any I've made before.

[TEX]

I don't use anything that is not in the recipe and I think it is the OJ that makes the difference. Some people add citric acid - there was someone who is not on this forum anymore - Shamrock something or another - and she talked about using citric acid - I have used some of the recipes she posted with it and they worked.

Try it again and use just what is called for

And of course with any bread recipe there is some trial and error for finding the "just perfect rising spot"

[debbie-bountiful]

I will next week. I grinded enough flour to make single loaves so I'll follow it completely.
Thank you,Debbie

[debbie-bountiful]

TEX

The bread is great but it is getting brown on the bottom of the bread. I use an instant thermometer and my oven is correct at 350. I am wondering if it is the pan. In the past I used ceramic pans but have been using the "old fashion" metal pans that have recently been selling. What kind of pan do you use?

[karlamaria]

Please keep your whole wheat recipes coming!! I want to use my bosch and am collecting good wheat recipe breads :) I can not wait to try my new Bosch tomorrow, Im going to try a few of these recipes!

[windmo]

Scald 3/4 cup milk
add 1/3c butter
when butter is melted add 1/4c sugar 1tsp salt 1/3c molasses
in mixing bowl 2tsp dry yeast 1 1/2c luke warm water, you can proof at this point if you like

then add the milk mixture

5c whole wheat flour mix well then add enough white flour to make a workable dough.
Knead till soft and workable. Put it in the bowl and let it rise till its doubled in size. Beat it down grease 2 pans split the dough put it in the pans and let it rise again till it's doubled.
put it in the oven at 400 for about 30 minutes

Let me know how it comes out :)

Mike

Mike I used your recipe today and the bread is gooooooooooooood!
I'll be making this as part of my weekly sandwich bread for the household :)

[Grendal]

I got a few recipes. Sandwiches huh...I got a few for this.

windsor rolls

1/2 cup of butter
3/4 pint of warm milk
1 cake of compressed yeast
1 teaspoonful of salt
flour

Melt the butter in the warm milk, dissolve the compressed yeast in a little tepid milk, stir together and add the salt and enough flour to make like bread dough, set to rise in a warm place. It will rise in about two hours. Roll out the dough, using as little flour as possible to keep it from sticking, and cut with a biscuit-cutter, or mould with the hands into rolls, put them in pans, and set on the shelf over the range to rise about ten or fifteen minutes. Bake fifteen or twenty minutes.

Before I go any further....

YEAST MATH-EQUIVALENTS & CONVERSIONS

The following conversions make it possible to substitute one form of yeast for another.

1 envelope dry yeast = 2 ½ tsp. by volume
1 envelope dry yeast = ¼ ounce by weight
1 envelope dry yeast = 2/3 ounce compressed yeast in rising power
1 tablespoon compressed yeast = 1¼ tsp. dry yeast

Therefore, 2 ½ teaspoons or ¼ ounce dry yeast is equal to 2/3 ounce compressed yeast.

1 ½ envelopes dry yeast = about 1 tablespoon plus 1 teaspoon by volume
1 ½ envelopes dry yeast = 3/8 ounce by weight
1 ½ envelopes dry yeast = 1 ounce compressed yeast in rising power

Therefore, 1 tablespoon plus 1 teaspoon or 3/8 ounce dry yeast is equal to 1 ounce compressed yeast.

1. Multiply envelopes of dry yeast by 2/3 to determine ounces of compressed yeast.

2. Multiply ounces of dry yeast by 8/3 to determine ounces of compressed yeast.

3. Multiply ounces of compressed yeast by 3/8 to determine ounces of dry yeast.

4. Multiply ounces of compressed yeast by 3/2 to determine number of envelopes of dry yeast.

Moving on....

Whole wheat bread

3 tablespoonful fat
1/4 cupful brown sugar
1 tablespoonful salt
1 cake compressed yeast
3 cupful lukewarm liquid
8 cupful whole-wheat flour
1 cupful white flour for kneading

Place the fat, the sugar, and the salt in the mixing bowl and add the yeast cake dissolved in a little of the liquid. Add the remainder of the liquid, and then stir in half or all of the flour, according to whether the sponge or the straight-dough method is preferred. Bake it like you did your bread.

Another wheat bread

2 cupfuls hot water or milk and water
2 teaspoonfuls salt
2 teaspoonfuls sugar
1/2 tablespoonful fat
1/2 to 1 cake compressed yeast
1/2 cupful lukewarm water
wheat flour (7 to 8 cupfuls)

Boil the water or milk and water. Pour it into a bowl and add the salt, sugar, and fat. Stir until the salt and sugar are dissolved, and the fat is melted. Mix the yeast with lukewarm water. When the first mixture is cooled to lukewarm temperature, add the yeast mixture to it. Then add flour enough to make it of the proper consistency (Stiff Dough), using a knife for mixing. Turn out on a floured board, and knead until soft and elastic. Return the dough to the bowl, moisten, cover, and let rise until doubled in bulk. Then divide it into loaves, or shape into biscuits. Cover and allow the loaves or biscuit to rise in the pan in which they are to be baked until they are doubled in bulk. Bake the biscuits 30 minutes in a hot oven and the bread about 60 minutes in a moderate oven.

Raisin Bread may be made by adding 2 cupfuls of seeded raisins to whole wheat bread mixture and increasing the sugar to 1/4 cupful or substituting 1/3 cupful molasses for the sugar. Use the greater quantity of yeast. Add the raisins to the mixture before adding the flour.

Whole wheat rolls

1 pint lukewarm milk
1 cake compressed yeast
1 teaspoonful salt
3 tablespoonfuls sugar
4 tablespoonfuls fat
2 cupfuls white flour
4 cupfuls whole-wheat flour
1/2 cupful white flour additional for kneading

Set a sponge with the lukewarm milk, in which are put the yeast cake, salt, sugar, fat, and white flour. Allow this to become very light, and then add the whole-wheat flour. Knead this dough and allow it to double in bulk. Then shape it into rolls, allow them to rise, and bake for 15 to 20 minutes. (by sponge it means sponge bread method)


I tend to make a few types of yeast...hop yeast, potato yeast, and pumpkin yeast.

Hop yeast

4 large potatoes
1/4 package of hops
1 cup sugar
1 tablespoon salt
flour
1/2 cup yeast

Boil the potatoes, and at the same time steep the hops in sufficient water to cover them. Mash the potatoes through a colander, strain over them four cups of the hop water; add the sugar, salt; thicken with flour to the consistency of batter cakes. Add the yeast, and leave it uncovered in a jar to rise. Use one-half a cup of this for four loaves of bread

Pumpkin yeast

1 fine ripe pumpkin
1 large handful of hops
1/2 pint of good strong yeast

Pare the pumpkin, and cut it into pieces. Put them into a kettle with the hops, and as much water as will cover them. Boil them till the pumpkin is soft enough to pass through a cullender. Having done this, put the pulp into a stone jar, adding the yeast to set it into a fermentation. The yeast must be well stirred into the pumpkin. Leave the jar uncovered till next day; then secure it lightly with a cork. If pumpkin yeast is well made, and of a proper consistence, neither too thick nor too thin, it will keep longer than any other.

[Grendal]

Potato yeast

4 pounds of raw potatoes pared
5 pints of water
4 table-spoonfuls of good brown sugar
3 pennyworth of fresh yest

Weigh the potatoes pared; boil them in the water. Wash and rub them through a sieve with the water in which they were boiled. Add the brown sugar; when milk-warm, put to the mixture the fresh yest; stir it well, and let it work in an open vessel. It will be fit for use in about twelve or fourteen hours.

About a pint and a half of this mixture will raise eighteen pounds of coarse flour; it may be put to rise over-night and will be ready to knead the first thing in the morning. It should be left to rise in the loaf four or five hours, before it is put in the oven.

A Pennyworth is the size of a penny. (roughly half teaspoon)


They come out quite nicely. Fond of the whole wheat windsor rolls for sandwiches myself. 1 cut and your ready to start sandwich making.