1950's yugo 8mm mauser ammo ? experience ?

[Westcliffe01]

I am buying a Remington 700 chambered in 8mm mauser. I have been looking for some ammo to shoot in it and came upon this (http://www.sgammo.com/product/surplus/900-rds-8mm-mauser-196-grain-yugo-1950s-surplus-ammo)

http://www.sgammo.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_full/IMG_1090%5B1%5D.jpg

Curious if anyone has bought and shot any of this ammo ? I bought similar Yugo 7.62x39 ammo and reliability has been fine in my AR chambered in 7.62x39.

I am a little concerned about the fact that a civilian rifle may not be set up for hard military primers, but that is not always a problem.

[J R Adams]

I am buying a Remington 700 chambered in 8mm mauser. I have been looking for some ammo to shoot in it and came upon this (http://www.sgammo.com/product/surplus/900-rds-8mm-mauser-196-grain-yugo-1950s-surplus-ammo)

http://www.sgammo.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_full/IMG_1090%5B1%5D.jpg

Curious if anyone has bought and shot any of this ammo ? I bought similar Yugo 7.62x39 ammo and reliability has been fine in my AR chambered in 7.62x39.

I am a little concerned about the fact that a civilian rifle may not be set up for hard military primers, but that is not always a problem.


Be Careful,
I bought some surplus ( 1950's era) Turkish 8mm Mauser ammo a few years back for use in a German WWII weapon. Twenty-five percent were duds. Wasn't the primers or the firing pin, just the ammo

[Westcliffe01]

I thought the Turkish ammo was 1940's vintage and was reported to be HOT ? I have not seen anyone selling Turkish surplus in my searches and have been satisfied with my Yugoslavian ammo so far. About 1 misfire out of 200 rounds so far.

I am curious about the headstamp on this ammo since my supposed 1950's 7.62x39 is stamped 1978... Maybe that is why it shoots so well. This stuff was made just 9 years before I served in Namibia / Angola so Swapo and the Cubans were probably shooting at us with this same stuff.....

[Teg]

I would ask about corrosiveness with any Soviet Bloc ammo.

[Westcliffe01]

I expect it to be corrosive, just like anything I shot in the service. I clean my rifles every time I shoot them, appropriate for corrosive ammo. Cleaning the gun is therapeutic in my opinion....

at 20c per round, compared to close to $1, I would rather do some scrubbing of the bore and chamber and more disassembly to get to everything than spending 5x the note on the ammo. I would really not want to shoot 1/5th as often. For hunting, I would probably spring for commercial ammo and check the point of impact beforehand, or else the later sniper ammo at Wideners for $0.45/round since one doesn't need that many shots on a hunt. The other possibility is reloading, but even the bullet is over $0.45/round without primer and powder.

So as long as the surplus stuff is available and reasonably reliable it is a hell of a bargain. If the next Prez writes another executive order cutting us off from surplus ammo, someone is going to be paid to mutilate the stuff and sell if for scrap value. Just look at your tax $ at work on govliquidation.com .....

[docsoos]

I clean my rifles every time I shoot them, appropriate for corrosive ammo. Cleaning the gun is therapeutic in my opinion....

:D Agreed!

DocSoos

[Wyobuckaroo]

Have seen a ton of both the older Turkish and Yugo ammo fired at a couple machine gun shoots I witnessed.

Biggest problem I saw with the Turkish ammo was split case necks. Brass was brittle and old enough a few necks would split and jam. Worked fine in bolt guns, but would push the bullet back in the case in self loading guns. It always fired with no problem, once chambered.

The Yugo ammo I saw fired, there never was a problem feeding, firing, ejecting in anything it was fed to.

Yes it seems like all military 8mm ammo loaded after they started using pointed bullets, is hot.

Only the older, round nose military ammo and commercial ammo seems loaded down to protect people who try to use it in turn of the century, (pre WW1) rifles. There are still many rifles like that out there, that are still useable.

I think the Remington 700, in 8mm was one of the "caliber of the year" rifles they put out. You should be able to go to web site, and get a number to check on that. I also suspect it is being sold, because it isn't a popular caliber. Now, if you are a re-loader, you should be able to buy it relatively cheap and have a lot of fun making it perform well.

When and where I grew up we had several 8mm rifles "recycled" by family members who were in Europe............. These rifles put a lot of deer, elk and other game meat across a dinner plate.

Good luck
Have fun
Keep safe
Wyo

[grumble]

I'm sure that y'all already know this, but just in case...

Most foreign manufacture military surplus ammo is Beridan primed, and not easily reloaded. Chances are that it will also have corrosive primers, meaning the barrel should be scrubbed with soap and water after using it and before using oil-based cleaning solvents.

Steel cased 'brass' (even if Boxer primed) is also difficult to reload because it cracks around the case neck when resized, and split cases are very common when fired the second time.

I hate to tell you what you already know, but maybe it will help someone who didn't know.

[jim]

I've had good luck with Yugo ammo. Corrosive but accurate.

You can reload either cast of jacketed slugs; rechamber to 8MM-06 for cheaper brass, or just rebbl the rifle.

[Westcliffe01]

Wyo, the 8mm is making a bit of a comeback. The Remington was the only recent US made rifle and they seem to be fetching prices up to $800-900. There were not very many of them made (3000-5000 ?)

The one I obtained was new and unfired and had a muzzle brake fitted as well as conventional sights, so quite a bit of added expense on my example. On the other hand, the WW2 mauser rifles are still more reasonable although going up in price (over 300 in some cases and we are not talking collectors items).


The Yugo ammo I saw fired, there never was a problem feeding, firing, ejecting in anything it was fed to.

I think the Remington 700, in 8mm was one of the "caliber of the year" rifles they put out. You should be able to go to web site, and get a number to check on that. I also suspect it is being sold, because it isn't a popular caliber. Now, if you are a re-loader, you should be able to buy it relatively cheap and have a lot of fun making it perform well.
Wyo

[Poonie]

Why does everyone make such a fuss over "corrosive" ammo? If you clean the gun the same day you shoot the corrosive ammo, you won't have a problem. I've cleaned guns with soap and water, with solvent meant for muzzleloaders, and just plain old Hoppes #9 after shooting corrosive ammo and I've never had an issue. Its when a person shoots corrosive ammo then thinks he's gonna be able to clean the gun 3 weeks from now, is when the problems arise.

Clean the gun after you get home from shooting and you won't ever see a problem with corrosive ammo.

[jim]

I use the water hose from the breech end, and flush the barrel that way for a couple of minutes. Then I dry and use milspec bore cleaner. Then oil well. The next two days, I just Hoppes #9 or some such and clean properly. I never get a spec of rust ina barrel doing this.

jim

[Teg]

Windex down the barrel from the breech after firing corrosives works fairly well also, at least it holds it till you can get the weapon home and cleaned.

[Pitdog]

That is a 700 Classic, and it was done only one run for one year and I would NOT put that ammo in mine, and yes I do have one.

[Westcliffe01]

I'm curious: Was not all ammo corrosive 25 years ago ? It seems to me that peoples expectations are to clean their rifle as often as they service their car. I don't fit that mold. I clean every time I shoot it. I shoot "decent" surplus ammo so I can stay in practice. The Yugo ammo is brass cased, copper jacketed lead core, so the only issue really is the primer.

The former owner of my rifle owned it for 7 years and never shot it. If you collect guns as a hobby, thats fine. I have too many other interests to have safes full of weapons that are "safe queens". It is a beautiful rifle and I don't think I am desecrating it by shooting the Yugo ammo.

[Wyobuckaroo]

Keith

We will need action pictures and a range report..........

ASAP...........

Enjoy
Wyo

[Westcliffe01]

I have visited every gun store I know of to get a 1 piece steel picatiny style scope base and no-one has them for the Rem 700 ??? Not even Cabelas. Warne makes at least 2 different ones, but apparently no-one buys them in a store. It looks like I will have to buy online and that means delivery next week. The yugo ammo is coming next week too. I found a box of 20 rounds to shoot with open sights and break in the barrel, $15+tax for 20... ouch... That available went all the way to $40/20rounds...

Longer term I am looking at a 3-12x42 Nikon Monarch, but short term I will use my 2-7x33 Redfield, for which I already have appropriate rings.

Why does no-one seem to stock nylon bore brushes for removing copper fouling ? I have to get those on line too. 10 for $12. I did get a brass jag, patches, windex and a bore mop (2x) and I have the usual general purpose clean/lube supplies. Maybe something will turn up tomorrow....

[Westcliffe01]

Thought I would post a few pictures from todays activity.

Attached a few pictures of the rifle with a temporarily fitted 2 piece steel Warne base and very nice Warne steel rings. Unfortunately, the scope tube is too short to fit keys in the rail, but it sufficed for initial trial and to get a feel how it works. A 7" long picatiny rail style one piece scope base is on the way from Brownels, just have to wait a few more days. I may have to cut a notch/relief in one side of the rail and re-blacken it to make it easier to load ammo into the magazine, but will wait until I have it and see how it works.

I removed the muzzle brake after getting back from the range, since I found that the inside of the bore was not effectively deburred after drilling all the holes. The brake tended to strip fluff off both bore patches and the bore mop that I used to clean the bore before shooting. I fitted the thread protector that was supplied with the brake and will shoot it this way next time and see how it works.

The magazine well is a bit long for the 8mm mauser bullets. When I was sighting in, I initially fed all rounds into the bore singly. When I thought I was about where I needed to be, I loaded 4 rounds in the mag and 1 in the chamber. Hold down the 4 rounds while cycling the bolt, no problem on the first round. When feeding the second round (from the mag), it seemed like the bolt couldn't pick up the rear of the cartridge and wouldn't feed. Perhaps I didn't pull the bolt all the way back, will check next time. But the rounds do have a lot of room to move around in the axial direction and I don't know if that is such a good thing ????

The statement that every Remington 700 comes with its own liability lawyer built in (the trigger) seems fitting. Trigger break was clean, and there wasn't a lot of take up, but boy it is heavy !!! I will do some more research on the subject of trigger adjustment, but this trigger is heavier than my DPMS AR which has a military style trigger.

[Westcliffe01]

I was a little handicapped with sighting in, since I only had a total of 20 rounds. I bore sighted the scope by removing the bolt and aligning the bore with a reflector at about 30yds away on my loader backhoe. Then dialing the scope in to point at about the same target. That got me on paper at 25yds.

Attached are 2 pictures of sighting in targets.

The one of the smaller area is the target from 25yds. The first shot was to the right about 3" and then this target shows walking the POI to the center and then raising it about an inch high of the center. I thought this would suffice to get on paper at 100yds, but it nearly didn't work..

Next picture showing most of the target is the 100yd target. Those with sharp eyes will see how the first group of bullets just clipped the target at the very top edge just left of center. I don't have a spotting scope yet and really couldn't tell where the shots went. Then my shooting neighbor pulled out his spotting scope and had a look for me and said I was 6" high ???? WTF ??? So the balance of the target was walking the shots down to where I wanted them, about 1.5" high at 100yds. I don't know why the one rounds was so far to the left and on average most of the shots are a bit biased to the left, so I may have to correct.

I have to figure out in my mind why one would go from being just above center at 25yds to being 6" above center at 100yds, but the sight base must have the scope inclined relative to the bore. Sighting in my AR style rifle didn't have a similar behavior at all, even though it is the relatively slow 7.62x39. I was out of ammo for the 8mm pretty quick after working back down from being 6" high, so I changed over to my Minnesota made AK, the DPMS 7.62x39, which I had sighted in and debugged during my previous range trip.

[Westcliffe01]

So here is what I got with my 7.62x39 DPMS with heavily re-worked C-Products magazines which I might add ABSOLUTELY DO NOT WORK as purchased. Investment of a couple of afternoons worth of troubleshooting and corrective action and the 2x 5 round mags work perfectly and the 30 round mags about as well as they ever will.

I try not to use the 30 round mags at the range, since they are too long to allow shooting from a bench rest. The 5 round mags were perfect and would be what I would use for hunting anyway.

I am using a 1-4x20 Nikon Monarch scope. It does not have much magnification for long range work, but at low magnification is better suited for close quarters shooting.

Other than the 1 flyer slightly low and to the right, all shots (2x 5 round groups) were inside the 3" circle. The trigger on this gun is pretty crap and I have to consider my options. It has a long take up and it gritty too and breaks at a really high force. Honing the sear may clear up the grittiness but I have to figure out what else I can do besides spend another $200 on a drop in trigger.

The ammo by the way, is Yugoslavian (corrosive primer) ammo which until recently was being sold at Wideners for $186/1120 round case. a couple of weeks ago there was a 50% price hike.... Very reliable and works well.

[Westcliffe01]

I disassembled the lower of the DPMS and removed the safety lever, hammer and trigger group. First time I had torn it down this far, so unfamiliar territory... One has to remove the pistol grip to get access to the detent pin/ spring for the safety lever. After removing the detent pin, the safety lever slides right out. Then the hammer, pin pushes out from the left hand side of the receiver. The spring is obviously preloaded, so hang onto it good. Then the trigger/safety sear. Pin again pushes out from the left side. Hold onto everything, since there are 3 pieces: the pin, trigger and safety sear in the middle. The safety sear will be the first part released, so get that first, then hold the trigger against its spring until it is released from the pin.

A couple of things were clear right away: The hammer sear and face of the trigger had obvious burrs on them. They could be seen and felt. The other is that the machining marks run 90 degrees to the direction of movement. The existence of these marks, and their direction is what imparts the gritty feeling when releasing the trigger. The trigger sear face is fully exposed so it can be lapped on all sides. The sear on the hammer is more difficult, since it is an internal corner. It is narrow, so it is basically impractical to lap it in the direction of movement.

I was able to lap all the faces of the sear on the trigger, paying attention to lap in the direction of movement on the main working face. Otherwise, the objective is to improve the quality of the surface while leaving the edges sharp and keeping everything flat and true. I used a fine whetstone to do this, although dedicated toolmakers lapping stones (smaller and narrower) would have been better. Professionals make fixtures on which to install the trigger and install rollers to guide the hone, so keeping everything true. It also allows them to modify angles in a precise way. Since I was doing everything freehand, the best motto is "not to do too much damage", so remove as little material as possible and just improve the surfaces.

The weight of the trigger may have decreased ever so slightly, but mainly it is much smoother. The length of travel is the same, since I didn't dimensionally change any of angles or depth of engagement. If you watch carefully, you can see the hammer first moving backwards and down slightly before it releases. I'm not an expert, but I would imagine that match triggers would not do that.

I guess I will have to see what improvement that brings tomorrow, back at the range...

[Westcliffe01]

Went out again this morning after working on the trigger. I found that it did not substantially improve grouping. There is still a Loooong take up before the break. Less flyers today, so that may be an improvement.

I did make a discovery, while looking into more professional solutions. There is a gunsmith/FFL called Bill Springfield who is located in Colorado Springs. His web page is www.triggerwork.net (http://www.triggerwork.net) He stared out offering walk in service for trigger work (done in 30 minutes) and has progressed to the point that he has pre-finished trigger assemblies for many different rifles.

A re-worked standard single stage AR15 trigger and hammer runs $99 for a 3lb break and $85 for a 4lb. That is about half the cost of some of the least expensive options I have looked at. If you are passing through, or live in the area, the same job on your own trigger will run $54 for 3lb and $39 for 4lb. Too bad it is such a long drive for me right now..... I will have to order one, much cheaper.

[Teg]

I'm sure you've thought of it already, but your ammo is likely a partial culprit in limiting your accuracy with the DPMS.

[Westcliffe01]

Operator
Ammo
Non floating handguard
Trigger
Headspace
Lapping bolt lugs
Greater magnification scope


its a long list...

While 3moa may seem acceptable, shooting in field conditions will probably make things worse, so I would like to get things narrowed down a bit. I think that fitting a floating handguard is a fairly big deal. I wouldn't like to imagine squeezing through that long take up on an animal that is probably not standing still as a statue...

More work is needed. I think it works about how most people expect it to at this point, after the work that has been done. Shooting it is not awful, it is reasonably reliable and 3" groups at 100yds is not the worst I have seen either. But it can probably be better. In retrospect I think the 1-4 scope was a mistake. I think a dedicated red dot sight next to the scope would probably have been a better plan, or even a laser sight for home defense. The 3-12 scopes are really tempting, particularly those with the parallax correction.

I am looking to convert the military brass to accept boxer primers using a small lathe. I am going to have a ton of it pretty soon..... Once I get into reloading, the ammo side of things will be better controlled.

[grumble]

Keith: "I am looking to convert the military brass to accept boxer primers using a small lathe."

If you figure out a way to do this, PLEASE post it. The Beridan primers are larger and deeper than the reloadable Boxer primers, so you'll have to make some sort of shim as well as drilling a new flash hole. There are TONS of Beridan brass out there to be had for pennies. A practical way to convert that brass to Boxer would be a fantastic thing to have.

[Westcliffe01]

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/25275/t/Berdan-to-Boxer-Conversion-Method.html

http://i42.tinypic.com/33zbjwn.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/33tkvwm.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/2ia62bt.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/14d0xo2.jpg


If you figure out a way to do this, PLEASE post it. The Beridan primers are larger and deeper than the reloadable Boxer primers, so you'll have to make some sort of shim as well as drilling a new flash hole. There are TONS of Beridan brass out there to be had for pennies. A practical way to convert that brass to Boxer would be a fantastic thing to have.

[grumble]

Excellent, Keith! Many thanks.

Looks like I can start saving my Beridan brass. I've tried several thing to try to swage the primer pocket in the past, but it was hit-and-miss whether the brass would hold the primer firmly or not. Never even thought of using a ball bearing!

Greatly appreciated!

[Westcliffe01]

Thank the guys on the surplus rifle forum (link at the top of the posting) who came up with the method... I am still a student...

I got in a set of close to 30 honing stones yesterday from Enco. Different abrasive, different grits and different cross sections (square, triangular and round).

I then had another go at honing the trigger and hammer sear on my DPMS. Now I seem to be getting somewhere.. I slightly reduced the depth of the sear engagement, since from the factory it is probably close to 0.060"... I was able to get the metal to a much better finish this time, since the stones go to 400 grit and one set I have that is orange in color is even finer. Also, with having a triangular stone, I was able to get right into the corner of the hammer sear, which I could not before.

Things are looking up... next week I will get the 9x12x2" granite surface plate which ships from a warehouse in AZ. Then I could get a few fixtures made to get very repeatable setup and precise angles, instead of "fudging" it by hand.

[grumble]

Gonna have to change your screen name to "gunsmith!" I've done a bit of minor trigger work, but never got involved enough to buy the shaped stones. If I couldn't do things with jeweler's files or lapping compound, it didn't get done.

Anyway, thanks again for the Beridan brass info.

[Westcliffe01]

Well, first thing I can say is that the Yugo ammo is loaded to a much higher pressure than the commercial stuff which I shot previously. The recoil was way higher, even after I re-installed the muzzle break.

I got the scope sighted in reasonably, but folks, the trigger pull on this gun is killing me... I shot better today with my 7.62x39 with a 4x scope than with the Remington 700 8mm Mauser with a 7x scope.... I don't have a trigger pull gauge, but I bet it is running over 8lb....

The trigger on the DPMS is much better than the last time, but I still need to reduce the sear engagement even more. It is much smoother, but it still has a long take up. Today I had a couple of rounds hang up on the feed ramps, but hitting the forward assist had them chambered. I have not yet touched the feed ramps and since I now have the round section hones and the rest of my dremel paraphernalia, it is time to smooth things up in that region.

I will get some pictures uploaded as soon as I have cleaned the weapons.

[Westcliffe01]

So, I have all the weapons clean again. The savage 24 didn't "malfunction" since I fixed the breech lock mechanism. I took the Redfield scope off the Savage and transferred it temporarily to the Rem 700 since I need to save up a bit to get the scope I want.. The Savage also fired every round, so we seem to have reliable ignition since replacement of the firing pin.

The Remington 8mm mauser thumped me pretty good with the hot Yugoslavian ammo and less the muzzle break. Once it started hurting, I put the brake back on again. The groups were lousy, but then the trigger was awful. So I made reference to this excellent article http://www.quarterbore.com/library/articles/rem700trigger.html and went to work getting it adjusted. I think I have the trigger pull down to about half what it was before, and the sear engagement is a little conservative (I think it was less originally). I am going to try it this way tomorrow (weather permitting) and see how it does.

The group pictured below is a typical group from the 7.62 carbine today. I'm too ashamed to show the ones from the Remington... Maybe next time.

[Westcliffe01]

Well folks, sorry to report, but the experiment with the 1950's ammo is not going too well at this point. Reliability to function is 100%. But even after lightening the trigger on the Remington by a huge amount, I am still shooting all over the place. Today I also made no scope adjustments, to eliminate that variable.

Attached are 2 targets shot with the 8mm. Then a 3rd shot with the DPMS carbine after reducing the hammer sear engagement yesterday to reduce creep. At this point I would say the carbine is all I hoped it could be. Just over 2moa in a 20 shot group with 1970's ammo.... The trigger is not yet perfect, but it is MUCH better than how it came from the factory. A free float handguard is probably the next step.

[Wyobuckaroo]

The Yugo ammo is "battle ammo" not sniper ammo. Made to function first time, every time.

Appears to be "predator" accurate enough.

That rifle, with some well thought out and tested hand loads, would be a devastating deer/elk/moose hunting system.................

Have fun
Wyo

[Westcliffe01]

I'm looking for a deal on a press and reloading dies for the 8mm mauser right now. I thought I could get a collet bullet puller too and try some modern powder and see if I get better consistency. That would be an inexpensive way to potentially improve the ammo.

[Wyobuckaroo]

Pulling bullets, dumping powder, and reusing the brass and primer has gone on a long time.

I think that procedure DEPENDS on the fact you have very good quality military brass to reuse.

In my experience over years with an old surplus Mauser rifle, told me to just shoot the surplus, buy some commercial brass to do reloaded ammo for hunting. Good excuse to prowl around the gun shows for bargains on equipment and components.

If you rebuild some of these cases and only get one loading out of them, seems kind of a waste of time. Good commercial brass will be good for 5-10 reloads.

Good luck
Wyo

[Westcliffe01]

Given that I am going to end up with 900 berdan primed cases which all have annealed necks and which would have been fire formed in the chamber of the rifle I will be using them in, the biggest issue I can see is priming. I would intend to only neck size the cases and check for any case stretch which would eventually reach a point where it would be hard to chamber, at which point one may have to push the shoulder back a little.

I have taken a look around and Midway has Remington 8mm mauser brass for about 50c/shell. Hornady and Nosler are running about 80c/shell. Obviously, I need to get boxer primed brass for the long term. The frustration is not knowing whether substitution of the least costly element (powder) is going to make a significant difference. Not only can the powder be replaced with something fresh and modern, but the exact charge can be varied a little in case that helps.

In addition, I could try different bullet weights, since the surplus stuff is 196gr and perhaps Remington set up the barrel twist for a lighter bullet. I believe it is a 1:10 twist like the 8mm magnum. I don't know the answer and it seems that pulling the bullets, dumping the powder, re-filling and possible bullet substitution is a pretty inexpensive exercise. By comparison, buying a set of brass + primers + bullets = a pretty substantial outlay right now.

Question: How would one tell the relative quality of the brass ? The fired brass from the Yugo ammo looks comparable to Lapua brass to me (only brass I have seen with annealed necks).

[grumble]

Keith, you'll find the brass is fine. It is good quality. What is different is the thickness of the case, and because it is thicker, it may be uneven in thickness. Back when I first started playing with surplus Mausers, I did what you're doing with cast bullets, with some very good results.

What you will find is that the case capacity is less than commercial brass. If you reload the original bullet, be sure to use reduced powder charges and work up. I'd suggest going as far as weighing the cases and separating them into at least two groups by weight, with more groups being better. Each group should have powder charges worked up separately to prevent overpressures. For the best results, you should also measure the capacity of each round with water. There can be very large deviations in that Eastern European surplus brass.

[Pitdog]

If you have ever ridden in a helicopter, it is like riding in an upside down blender. When the M16 A1 was first fielded in trials, they discovered that a neutral angle and shallow sear engagement notch would allow the vibrations of helicopters to discharge the rifles with no warning. You will notice that not only are you battling deep sear engaement (the print calls for .080) you are battling a positive angle, thus the hammer actually rotates down prior to rotating up after sear break. All of that is on purpose. The second critical thing to remember is that those parts are cast, and they are surface hardened ONLY meaning the wear surface is hadened as little as .005, generally about .010. If you have gone from .080 =/- .05 to .060 then you have removed the hardened wear surface, and the trigger will fail miserably at some point as it wears the softer meta down.
Trigger jobs on milspec AR triggers is kind of like defeating the purpose. Replacement springs and polishing the hardened wear surface will reduce friction thus making the trigger feel better, but it can only GET so good. There are more extreme modifications that can be done, BUT you have to be good at silver soldering and be VERY crafty.
Be careful with modifying AR triggers.
The 8x57 700 is rifled 1-10 and the heavier the bullet you shoot, the better it will shoot. It appeared your rifle had a thread protector on it as though the muzzle was threaded? Check the crown, someone may have done a Cadle job to it and it could be giving you trouble as well. What powder are you putting behind the bullets?

[Westcliffe01]

Pitdog, I can understand the potential problems associated with weapons going off in helicopters. Anytime I took a flight in anything in the service, our weapons all had to be unloaded and made safe, unless it was going to be pointed outside out an existing opening...

When I said I changed the sear engagement, it meant that I ground some material off the face at 90 degrees to the actual engagement surface. I need a sketch here... OK, made a sketch of where the material was removed to reduce engagement. What should be clear is that the face which is actually loaded while engaged has only been touched to improve the finish, so even with case hardening it should be fine. I don't believe that the trigger sear ever manages to touch the area where the material was removed.

[Westcliffe01]

The remington is fitted with a muzzle brake made by Magnaport. They cut back the muzzle crown, threaded it and added a small 11 degree target crown to what was left. I removed the brake because the radially drilled holes have a burr on the ID which shreds my bore mops and swabs. So I took it off in the interim, also to give me an idea how well it works (and it definitely has a significant impact on muzzle rise and recoil).

Meanwhile I have a 1/4" cylindrical honing stone, so I should be able to deburr it properly now.

So far I have only shot the 1950's Yugoslavian surplus ammo, which I think is good stuff other than being a bit old and having the corrosive primer. When I first fired it, prior to the surplus ammo coming in, I shot off a box of 20 PMC cartridges which were boxer primed and they were loaded much milder with 170gr bullets. The trigger was also heavier than hell, which I adjusted prior to the last outing, to a much more reasonable pull weight. On the 700, trigger pull is in no way connected to the impact force of the striker, quite unlike how the AR trigger system has been put together.

I don't regret what I did to my trigger on the AR, it is unrecognizable compared to what it was originally. Access to the trigger group is pretty quick, so I will have no problem keeping tabs on how it is holding up. Spending the dough later on a custom trigger may not be a problem, but given that I was not allowed to own weapons due to my immigration status for the last 10 years (7 in the US and 3 years in Germany), I have a lot of catching up to do. So it is not high enough on the priority list yet. Next on the list for me is a handgun and it looks like that is going to be an FNP 9. I have had my CCW card already for more than a month, so it is high time I invest in a carry weapon....

Excuse the crop.....
The 8x57 700 is rifled 1-10 and the heavier the bullet you shoot, the better it will shoot. It appeared your rifle had a thread protector on it as though the muzzle was threaded? Check the crown, someone may have done a Cadle job to it and it could be giving you trouble as well. What powder are you putting behind the bullets?

[Westcliffe01]

Caved in and bought 200 rounds of Privy 8mm ammo with re-loadable brass (boxer primed). It was only slightly more expensive than the surplus 90's "sniper" ammo, which was berdan primed. 198gr bullet, so close in weight to the surplus stuff.

https://www.aimsurplus.com/EOS/images/product/ap8fmj198.jpg

Will see if this groups any better than the surplus, so that I can get some idea of where my problem lies. Will be getting an RCBS "Rock Chucker" press and dies just past mid month, that will allow me to get a reloading bench set up meanwhile so I can be ready. I have spent a lot of time looking at 9mm / 40sw pistols, but it drives me nuts that when I find one I like, no one has any stock ????

I also notice that everyone seems to be running out of Wolf / bear 7.62x39 ammo ???? What the hell is going on ???? The election is still a ways off ??

[Teg]

Try www.Ammoengine.com for ammo, for weapons I just find them online and have them shipped to my local gun store if they don't have them in stock or can't get get them in.

[Westcliffe01]

Teg, several of the best vendors are not listed on ammoengine, including Aim Surplus and SGammo. I got the Privi ammo from Aim for $1 less per 20 rounds and their shipping is often less than half the price of some of the competitors. Like usual, one can only make a sensible decision once you know the price + shipping. I got my second case of the 7.62x39 Yugo brass cased ammo from SG right after Wideners raised their price by nearly 50% and including shipping I paid less than the original case from Wideners.

I usually look for firearm deals on budsgunshop.com When buds doesn't have something ordinary, there is a supply/demand problem going on. They don't specialize in AR style rifles, but it is quite incredible just how much stock they do carry (Like BHphotovideo for camera equipment).

[Teg]

I find that Ammoengine gives me a good ballpark to look around, I know that some sites aren't affiliated with them, so you need to do your due diligence. When window shopping for new weapons or in general I use GunGenie and a few other sites for online, and luckily my local gun store is pretty well stocked or willing to get most of what I have wanted thus far.

[Westcliffe01]

Finally had an opportunity to shoot some of the new 196gr boat tailed ammo from PPU that I bought last week.

I did not stay long at the range. 3 x 3 shot groups. Vertical dispersion maximum of 1". Horizontal dispersion about 2", same as what I have been getting with the AR in 7.62x39. So a significant amount of that is still technique, not least of which is that I can see virtually squat at that range....

However, the redeeming part is that shooting those kinds of groups the first time out with fresh ammo suggests that with the appropriate measures I can get this problem licked.

Actions I have taken:
Bought a Nikon 4-16x50 scope with side focus (so that I can see what I am looking at....) $373 @ www.calssportingarmory.com (http://www.backwoodshome.com/forum/vb/www.calssportingarmory.com)
http://www.nikonhunting.com/images/product/8439_4-16x50SF.jpg
Bought lumber and plywood to build the reloading bench. It will have a 24"x48" working surface and a 48x36" backplane to hold reloading supplies. All I will have initially is a single single stage press, later I may add a second progressive press. Brass cleaning and the like will be in a different area...

Also bought a steel foot locker (it is really a construction site lock box)
http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/567951_lg.jpg

Finally, I have all my ammo under lock and key. It is in a very confined space so it would take some serious iron pumping boys to move it now that it is loaded....

Once the bench is built and the press is installed, I will start pulling the bullets from some of the surplus ammo and refilling with fresh powder. If that gets me a similar capability as the PPU ammo, I will be a happy camper. Because I have LOTS of that stuff to shoot. (And there is still lots more of it to buy for less than $200 for 900 rounds....

Meanwhile I will have reloadable brass for close to 250 rounds, so i can try to develop a lighter and heavier load for use on deer and elk. Bullet drop is very significant beyond 250yds with the 196gr bullets, so I need to review the options.

[Teg]

Nice container, you could even bolt that to the floor for enhanced security purposes, but weight is a good theft prevention device as well. ;). Been looking over at Harbor Freight at one of their workbenches myself, might just use the design though as a lot of their stuff is cheaply made. Looks like you are well on your way to a fine set-up. :)

[Westcliffe01]

Given the amount of berdan primed brass in my possession, I am considering a different approach to the problem. The nice thing about the proposal (providing it works) is that I could use the same method on any rifle caliber.

So here is the thought:

In a lathe, drill and ream an oversize hole in the bottom of the cartridge, at least 0.060 larger than the primer pocket.

Have a friend make up little brass plugs in a small cnc lathe (2000 at a time) which will be a press fit into the reamed hole.

Clean the plugs in the ultrasonic washer and then with some solvent, then press into the "bored" shell casings.

Apply solder paste to the back surface of the casings. Prepare a big batch (200+ at a time) and then heat the back of the upended shells with a large propane blowtorch until the solder is flowing. Generally, solder will penetrate by capillary action into the joint line and seal it.

Now back into the lathe 1 at a time and drill/ream the flash hole and boxer primer pocket.

Run through tumbler with stainless steel pins to get that "like new" look
http://www.stainlesstumblingmedia.com/skin/frontend/default/stm/images/img_before.gif
http://www.stainlesstumblingmedia.com/skin/frontend/default/stm/images/img_after.gif http://www.stainlesstumblingmedia.com/

From this point, treat it like regular boxer primed brass.

Thoughts ?


http://i42.tinypic.com/33zbjwn.jpg