any non-AR style 5.56mm rifles out there

[pasto76]

Im very familiar with the shooting of that round; the cost of AR style weapons is generally too much for me. bolt action or semi.

[Teg]

I bought a C-93 that I like, pretty much a copy of the HK93 all HK parts, shoots great. You also have the Sig Sauer 556 line but they are more than the AR usually, though they do shoot cleaner. The Cheaperthandirt and Centerfiresystems sites have a good selection of other low cost choices, just remember the old buyer beware and all that.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ItemListing.aspx?sort=priceLow&catid=7777

http://centerfiresystems.com/rifle-c93.aspx

http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductList/rifles-sig556.aspx

[pasto76]

awesome, thanks for the links. Was having a hard time finding where to start.

[Teg]

No problem, I have purchased weapons and gear from both Cheaper than Dirt and Center Fire Systems, both are good companies and they worked easily with my local gun store FFL. They have some nice bolt action selections as well if you want to go that route, I just linked the one I had, also here is an ammo search link for you and one of my favorite ammo sites cause I am just predjudiced towards their bulk sales. :)

http://www.ammoengine.com/find/ammo/.223_Remington_5.56x45mm

http://www.luckygunner.com/bulk-ammo

[grumble]

Just to get an idea of what's out there, you can go to gunbroker.com or gunauction.com and do a search on "223." You can get some real tackdrivers for under $500.

[pasto76]

more good links, thanks!

[Teg]

more good links, thanks!

No problem. :)

[Westcliffe01]

Search for Galil or golani sporter. Very good 223 rifle at about $600 with folding stock. Basically an improved AK with a heavier machined receiver for better accuracy. Fairly good iron sights with excellent night sights.

http://www.kygunco.com/products2.cfm/id/30152/name/century-international-golani-sporter-223-2-mags

http://www.kygunco.com/prodimages/974-DEFAULT-L.jpg

[Teg]

They have them at centerfiresystems as well, the originals were solid weapons.

[Westcliffe01]

Centerfiresystems has been out of stock for several months. Which is why I posted the other link even though they are more expensive. Seems to be a supply problem although it seems more will be coming Q1 2012...

[Teg]

Could be an issue at Century Arms as well, hard to say I guess.

[Poonie]

Cabelas just had a sale on a S&W AR carbine clone that went for around $599.00.......That's certainly affordable these days.

[pasto76]

Cabelas just had a sale on a S&W AR carbine clone that went for around $599.00.......That's certainly affordable these days.

only if work is steady:man_in_love:

which it hasnt been for years now.

[cinok]

Any reason why 5.56 is so important. If cost is such concern which I fully understand you could easily find a used bolt action or semi in a different caliber much cheaper and maybe even better quality.

[grumble]

For someone who reloads, 223 (or 5.56) is a pretty cool caliber. Cheap, lots of milsurp components, very accurate, and very versatile. Single shot and bolters in 223 are tack drivers, and not very expensive. The Savage 110 is an example, and so is the NEF/H&R break action.

[Teg]

For someone who reloads, 223 (or 5.56) is a pretty cool caliber. Cheap, lots of milsurp components, very accurate, and very versatile. Single shot and bolters in 223 are tack drivers, and not very expensive. The Savage 110 is an example, and so is the NEF/H&R break action.

Yup they have some nice bolt actions at either CFS or CTD, can't remember off the top of my head, I was looking to get one in .223 for long distance Coyotes when I get to Arkansas.

Teg
:yes4:

[Poonie]

only if work is steady:man_in_love:

which it hasnt been for years now.

Understandably true in this economy....

[Mad_Professor]

Remmington and Ruger make nice ACCURATE. bolt actions.

I have a M700 BDL in .222 that will hit a dime at 200 yds all day with no wind, the .223 will get you 200 fps faster

I can choose which woodchuck eye to hit : )

Oh yes, I forgot the Savage 110

Buy AMERICAN!!!

[Teg]

Buy what works. ;)

[Pitdog]

Be aware of a couple of things when attempting to choose a NON AR-15 semi Auto. With HK clones and with the Galil clones- magazines are expensive. Shot a c93 Saturday and it was ok- 3 mags for 96$? Galil is ok- Century get some of them right and some of them NOT- mags 35$ each.
Parts- spare parts, parts interchangeability,magazines etc- are something to REALLY look at.
Mags for AR- sales of brand new mags can be had for 10-12$ each, for quality metal mags.
Parts- AR-15 parts rebuild kit from Bushmaster- 39.10
Plain AR-15's like the Smith, DPMS can be had for the price of a Galil or C93, and outfitted and insured with extra parts for LESS money than the other stuff.

Buying a .223 bolt rifle or single shot is ok- but don't plan on shooting a lot of 'cheap surplus' ammo in them as it is 5.56 and yes there is a difference and while you can get away with it (now and again) you are doubling and tripling the stress on the rifle. Maybe more if it is foreign as that ammo is not manfactured to SAAMI specs.
If you are a plinking handloader with plenty of time, a .223 bolt rifle is fun with .223 ammo.
Myself- would look for a Stevens 200 in .223 and have a smith with brains and skills run a 5.56 or .223 Wylde reamer in it and go from there. The HR single shots are ok, but do you want to potentially defend with one? Not this guy.
Look at the bigger picture and not the price of the gun. Plus in a SHTF scenario, the single most common centerfire rifle in America today in the civillian world is the AR-15, parts and mags will still be out there, quite possibly in great number lying about.

[grumble]

You bring up good points, Pitdog. Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken, but IIRC, the difference between 223 and 5.56 is the neck angle, with the 5.56 being about one degree steeper. Meaning that the 223 chamber will compress the 5.56 slightly. In a "hard rocking" semiauto, the round will slam into the front of the 223 chamber hard enough to reform the brass, but will just compress the brass in a bolt or single action gun.

If you can find "cheap" 5.56 milsurp ammo (good luck on that, most I see is more than 30c a round), it might be worth reforming it to 223 if that's the gun you want to shoot it in. It will cost you about $20 for a Lee 223 two die set. Just remove the decapping pin from the die, and run the loaded milsurp ammo through it. Totally safe and it goes fast, you're just barely bumping the neck angle.

It's up to the user, but before I'd ream a chamber, I'd reform the ammo. .001" too deap with the chamber reamer, and you're begging for some real headspace problems.

[Teg]

Be aware of a couple of things when attempting to choose a NON AR-15 semi Auto. With HK clones and with the Galil clones- magazines are expensive. Shot a c93 Saturday and it was ok- 3 mags for 96$?

Yup the C-93 mags outside of the 40rd ones can be expensive, been trying to get 30rd mags or 25rds myself but they are scarce, which is freaking odd because the HK33/53 are still in service around the world and use the same mags, you would think there would be some surplus lying around.

You can get near every part hear if you ever have anyone looking or need parts personally. HKparts.net (http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK-93-53-Parts-c8.htm)

Teg
:yes4:

[Pitdog]

Grumble I'm afraid that is way off base, let me explain.
The angle difference is in the throat of the chamber itself, in a .223 there is less freebore and the throat is at an angle that slows the bullet down- thereby increasing pressure to potentially unsafe levels. The rounds will interchange as drop in, and will feed the same etc, but it is all about the chamber dimensions. Which is why running the .223 Wylde or 5.56mm reamer in and recutting the THROAT only portion of the chamber makes it safe.
It's (probably) not going to blow up on you the first time you do it, maybe not even after a 100, but some pressure recordings have been as high as 2x normal pressures and that is like shooting a proof load.
Hope this helps, there is a lot of good info out there on the subject.

[grumble]

Pardon me for being dense, Pitdog, but I don't understand what you're saying. "Freebore" of any kind in most rifles is nonexistant. Weatherby used to make a big deal of long freebore, but I haven't heard them boast about it recently. most target rifles suggest either the ogive contact the land entry or be no more than about .001".

Are you saying that if 5.56 bullets are seated a little deeper to increase the "jump" to the lands, they'd be the same as a 223?

Sorry to not understand, I can be thick sometimes.

[grumble]

Oops, never mind, Pitdog. I asked my good buddy, Mr Google, and found the answer:

http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223vs556.pdf

The 5.56 has twice the leade of the 223. That's the answer.

[Westcliffe01]

I have to say that the AR15 has some peculiar ergonomic issues that if you don't like will simply drive you crazy...

So most people at some time or another have worked a bolt gun. You can keep your face against the stock and work the bolt and it comes pretty close to your face. One would imagine that if you are going to build an autoloader then one would want to improve these ergonomics, no ?

So Mr Stoner puts the charging handle ON TOP of the receiver at the very back, so it is basically impossible to access it with the right hand or with a cheek weld. And, if you want to keep your scope low, to keep the overall profile down, it can be really tight even getting your hand in there.

I personally really like the Galil / Scar type of charging handle and don't care about it flying around since my other hand is holding the fore-end of the rifle anyhow. The HK type of charging handle is typically moved even further forward, which is fine except a little more difficult when prone, but not unduly.

I have personally had awful issues with magazines for my AR15, but it is a hybrid that shoots the 7.62x39 and so the AR lower receiver is all wrong for that round anyway, one should not blame the magazine, except for that fact that people are willing to sell junk that doesn't work and may cost you your life if you really needed it. In addition, there are plenty of quality issues related to fitup of upper and lower receivers, terrible trigger/sear quality (gritty creepy, heavy) that one imagines would not be worse in a rifle made in the 21st century free world, compared to a post WW2 Yugoslavian Mauser.

So the OP is warned: Best go and actually try out the rifle you intend to buy before you are disappointed. I was really interested in the Sig Sauer 556R when it came out. It looked like an even better "update" on the Galil if you know what I mean (gas operated, easy disassembly, prepped for optics and sold with a red dot, folding stock etc etc). However, the initial buyers were shocked by unbelievable quality issues. Every kind of issue imaginable. Failure to feed, failure to fire, failure to eject. Pieces falling off the gun from day 1. etc etc This on a weapon that retailed at $1300 !!!

The Golani is pretty basic, but it had most of the features I was looking for. gas operation, folding stock, my kind of ergonomics.

[Pitdog]

There are ALL manner of rifles out there for people to choose from. The information I provided was an objective look at availability, (Rifles, parts, accessories) especially realted to COST, as the OP was concerned with.
I probably over complicated my explanation of the freebore and throat Grumble, I apologize as I tend to not communicate such answers in layman's terms. I'm glad we are tracking now sir.
With the AR, certain other things brought up are not really problematic, but misunderstood.
AR's were designed with the charging handle on top so that right and wrong handed people could manipulate them. Keep in mind the rifle was NEVER intended to have optics on it, it had a carry handle with sights providing plenty of clearance for people even when they did mount optics on it. With the addition of the current A-3 uppers with flat tops, they were dsigned for use with short optics, EOTech and ACOG type sights, not for 4-16x50 Tascos mounted low like a bolt rifle.
However the cure for this is an oversized charging handle latch, and OR an 'ambidexterous' charging handle.
With regards to triggers, the trigger design was finalized so that it would NOT rattle loose and fire while in helicopters especially or bumpy truck rides. It is designed not with the 'mall ninja mega sniper' in mind, and there are good and safe solutions if one finds themselves needing an AR with a better trigger.
7.62x39 was created with substantial body taper on the case itself, lending well to feeding. It was created along the lines of the old 7x57, 8x57 etc that had long more radically tapered cases for feeding. So in a magazine that was designed for it- like the AK long and curved from the bottom of the receiver down, they feed great. Put in a straight type AR mag they don't work. Put in a modified curved AR 7.62 mag, it has to be straight to go in the deeper AR mag well and again- does not work.
The AR-15 in it's correct platform and in original caliber works great, like anything, when you go to messing with it, that's when troubles occur.

[Murph]

I bought a SU-16C carbine at a gun show in Nashville last summer for $473. Loaded with a 20-round magazine it weighs 5.5 lbs. American-made, it has a heavy barrel, threaded barrel for muzzle attachments, an underfolder stock that can fired/reloaded whether stock is folded or not. It uses standard GI 20 and 30-rd magazines and will take Magpul magazines. It has a rail system atop the receiver for sights/optics and is operated by a piston system similar to an AK. It fires .223 and 5.56mm military-grade ammo.

While not my main go-to rifle, I bought it because if I ever need to travel light and fast cross-country (like the pony express without the pony) and arrive on-scene with some serious firepower, I figured this would be the trick. Being lightweight and short makes it ideal for women, children, and folks with rotator cuff/shoulder problems.

It handles very well in thick brush and when moving through buildings, it's accurate, and I haven't had a failure to feed yet, so I'm quite satisfied. It always does what I want it to do.

You can get the specs here:
http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/rifles/su-16c-2/

[Wyobuckaroo]

Two things...........
If I remember from school, I think the difference in a 5.56 chamber is little bigger diameter where the case neck sits. And maybe a little more throat from there out to the full depth of the rifling. That is so the chamber will accept in spec ammo from any Nato country.
---------
The other thing is, years ago, I fired a bolt action Sako rifle when they first made them in 223 Rem chambering. I suspect it was a 1 in 10, or 1 in 12" twist at that time. It had a 6 power Leupold scope on it and was shooting 55 grain hand loads in commercial brass.

You could shoot a prairie dog at a measured 400 yards, and see the bullet kick up dust behind the dog, as the head popped 10 feet in the air. Without loosing your sight picture in the scope........

This rifle was out of the box..... No mods, no bedding, etc. When they made rifles like they should be............

I was impressed.

Good luck

[Westcliffe01]

I just caved today and bought one of the Golani sporters. There is a bill in the process of being passed which modifies the MI pistol definition so that no form of shoulderable weapon will be permitted to be carried loaded in or on any form of vehicle whatsoever, whether on private of public land. Even for CPL holders. So in future, the only protection allowed is a handgun, period. Regardless of the source of danger.

If in or on your tractor, car, ATV,truck any rifle or shotgun has to be unloaded in chamber, magazine and it has to be cased or taken down. So using a rifle or shotgun for defensive purposes outside your home (unless you walk it out) is dead and gone.

A recent clause grandfathers weapons registered prior to Jan 1 2012, so that left very little time to get one of them.

[Teg]

The thing I was taught was, if a weapon is rated for 5.56 it can shoot both 5.56 and .223, if it is only rated .223, you can have the issues described above with 5.56 rounds. "Most" mil-spec weapons can shoot either, but it's always wise to check the specs before buying, same with 7.62 and .308 from what I was told, if I am off base then I'd appreciate someone more knowledgeable giving me a better explanation.

Teg
:yes4:

[Teg]

There is a bill in the process of being passed which modifies the MI pistol definition so that no form of shoulderable weapon will be permitted to be carried loaded in or on any form of vehicle whatsoever, whether on private of public land. Even for CPL holders. So in future, the only protection allowed is a handgun, period. Regardless of the source of danger.

If in or on your tractor, car, ATV,truck any rifle or shotgun has to be unloaded in chamber, magazine and it has to be cased or taken down. So using a rifle or shotgun for defensive purposes outside your home (unless you walk it out) is dead and gone.

A recent clause grandfathers weapons registered prior to Jan 1 2012, so that left very little time to get one of them.

Michigan is a bit of an oddity, isn't it? The UP is nice enough, but below that its like a whole other state.

Teg

[Westcliffe01]

Firearm rules are the same, UP or below. Can't carry a loaded shotgun or rifle anymore in your car regardless of wolves or bears or 2 legged predators. More California or NYC imitators joining the ranks.

I'm trying to get one of the MI pistols grandfathered in before Jan 1 and if that fails, I will have to rely on my Desert eagle in 44 mag.

[Teg]

Firearm rules are the same, UP or below. Can't carry a loaded shotgun or rifle anymore in your car regardless of wolves or bears or 2 legged predators. More California or NYC imitators joining the ranks.

I'm trying to get one of the MI pistols grandfathered in before Jan 1 and if that fails, I will have to rely on my Desert eagle in 44 mag.

Well I know that its the same rules for the whole state, what I meant was the folks in lower Michigan tend to have different ideas when it comes to guns, hunting and such.

Teg
:yes4:

[OzarkCountryboy]

Teg as far as the 7.62x51 vs. .308 compatibility. I believe Anything that's rated for commercial .308 is safe for 7.62x51 Nato rds. I believe the case pressures are almost twice as high in the commercially produced modern rounds? Someone correct me if I'm wrong but that's how the gunsmith explained it to me when I had an old M1916 Mauser that'd been rechambered in .308. Had something to do with the weakness of the 2 lug mausers as compared to the 3 lug.

[ArmySGT.]

I had an old M1916 Mauser that'd been rechambered in .308. Had something to do with the weakness of the 2 lug mausers as compared to the 3 lug.

Huh? If it is a M1898 pattern Mauser Bolt action it has two lugs up front at the Chamber. The third lug is the root of the bolt handle. Sometimes referred to as the safety lug. That is to keep you from taking the back half of the bolt body in the face.

Ammunition was unreliable at the turn of the century. It might squid, might rupture the case venting gas back at the shooter (see the holes in the receiver), or blow up. Nitrocelluose was new in those days.

[Wyobuckaroo]

What Ozarkcountryboy is talking about is a 1893 Spanish pattern rifle. No third lug and cock on closing if I remember. Originally chambered in 7x57mm Mauser. I have had one in my hands a long time ago, but never fired one.

Yes, 308 commercial ammo is typically loaded to a little faster muzzle velocity than NATO ammo, BUT NOT twice as fast.

Again, when I looked up the dimensions for chamber reamers for commercial 308 and 7.62 NATO, the diameter of the neck area and free bore between neck and rifling is the only difference.

What people have to remember is any military is NOT going to use ammo that will wreck there guns. If they need hotter ammo, they will build a stronger gun.

I haven't been to school, but have tried to study these things quite extensively.

Keep safe

[Pitdog]

Well, with regards to the 5.56, it isn't HOW HOT the load is, it is that the bullet is more confined in a .223 chamber than a 5.56 chamber, therefore .223 chambers do fine with .223 ammo. The military 5.56 IS loaded a bit hotter, AND it produces higher pressure because the case wall is thicker, meaning less case capacity. In a 5.56 chamber with a longer throat and freebore for the bullet to jump forward uninhibited, the 5.56 ammo is not problematic.
5.56 in a.223 chamber is where the POTENTIAL for problems lies. Ever wonder why reloading manuals either list different load data for 5.56 vs .223 or warn the reader to reduce loads by 10%? Because military brass doesn't have the case capacity of commercial brass. The brass is thicker walled so it has less tendency to separate in a hot dirty chamber that has just fired off maybe multi-hundred rounds.
As far as the Mauser goes, it was originally chambered for 7.62 CETME round NOT 7.62x51 NATO, remember those rifles were built BEFORE NATO- and the 7.62 was not standardized so- I'm running out of time- here is a link that will explain it.
Merry Christmas!

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=76&p=813918

[Clem]

I am a former Marine who used an M-14 in the service and qualified with the M-16 before leaving the service. I have never warmed up to the AR-15/M-16 rifle. I do like the M-1/M-1 Carbine/M-14 rifles, so when I decided to get something in 5.56, I got a Mini-14. It had rather casual accuracy, so I got it rebarreled. Now it is very nice. More recently I got a SIG556. It has many of the design features of the AK-47, but much better ergonomics and it takes the ubiquitous AR-15 mags.

Some years ago I gave serious consideration to the Galil, but the proprietary mags made it a deal breaker. A Galil in 7.62x39 might be interesting, but with the availability of the SIG 556R, I think I will eventually go that way.

[Westcliffe01]

The Sig 556R WAS very promising until the initial production run produced guns on which the folding stock didn't work, fail to fire, fail to eject, ejected brass tearing up the rubber grip on the bolt handle etc etc etc.

Judging by availability, they seem to have stopped producing it, maybe until they get the quality issues solved IDK... For the same reasons, don't buy one of them unless you can shoot it first to verify that it works or the store has a bullet proof return policy.

My DPMS 7.62x39 carbine was the last of the "lemons" that had sat in a store for nearly a year after they ceased production. By that time the mag maker had gone bankrupt from returns on the 7.62x39 magazines (utter junk btw - C products). The 5.56 mags may be fine, but whoever tooled up the 7.62x39 had no idea what they were doing. When I took my rifle to the range the first time, not a single magazine would feed a round, even if only 1 round was loaded in a 30round clip. Not a single replacement magazine was available. I finally reworked them all by hand with a chain saw file and a round honing stone.

[Westcliffe01]

For the sake of full disclosure, I am sorry to report my utter humiliation when I went to my FFL to receive my Century Golani sporter late last year. The weapon was in a truly shocking state. We later determined that Century had parkerized the barrel / receiver and "forgotten" to plug the barrel...

Then, at the store I bought it from (not the one I listed above) an employee had taken it out the display and used it on the range without even bothering to inspect it first or even try to clean it afterwards. Of course, what was proven was that it fired, and didn't blow up, despite having the entire length of the bore parkerized...

Needless to say, when I got it the fouling in the bore was just unbelievable. The bore was as black as night. Gas system was covered in powder residue. Chamber and bolt were yellow from brass residue. The gas piston retaining pin bore was oversize and the pin was staked on only 1 side. Bolt carrier had been dremeled because the receiver rails were out of spec. Barrel to receiver fit-up was wrong, so to correct head space the goons ground the bolt lugs undersize. Front sight was loose and finally the folding stock knuckle was worn out so that when folded the stock was able to flop around a few inches.

I didn't know what the issue with the bore was at first, so set about cleaning it the way one would on a WW2 gun. Powder solvent, brushing, more powder solvent, more brushing. Foaming bore cleaner, brushing, several hour soak, more foaming bore cleaner, more scrubbing and brushing. Rinse with boiling water. Copper fouling remover, nylon brush, soak, more copper remover, more brushing, soak, boiling water rinse. So the cycle went for an entire weekend. By the end of the weekend, after about 5 of these full cycles, the foaming bore cleaner would still instantly turn purple when shot down the bore.

So I decided that a whole bunch of it had to go. I contacted the shop where I bought the weapon and explained the sunsetting MI pistol bill and that my registration had to be turned in well before Dec 31 2011, that precluded returning the rifle. I had notified the salesman of this requirement before I concluded the sale. I sent them photos of the major issues. They finally agreed to refund $200 for parts and gave me 300 rounds of Black Hills ammo.

I put it all back together and shipped it off to Hill Billy Firearms in Tennesee. Jeff Miller is the owner and a great guy to work with. He went over everything carefully and we concurred on what had to be done:



New Barrel (I got one for $50 18" long drop in replacement, just the US barrels all have a 1:12 twist vs the IMI 1:7 twist. Since I already have a varmint 223 that can shoot 0.5MOA, I don't see myself needing to do long range shooting with this gun which dictates 75gr bullets, so I think the 1:12 is probably fine.
New stock (brand new type 3 IMI stock = $125)
New bolt (since grinding the old one was toast)
Add a second gas tube and weld on a 6" steel Warne rail for forward mounted optics (JPoint red dot or similar)
Fix the gas piston/bolt carrier joint
Gunsmithing for all the above
Media blast all major weapons parts and magazine followers, parkerize and Cerakote Mill spec Tan. This included 4x 35 round mags + 2x 12 round mags. The receiver and dust cover were cerakoted inside and out to help reduce maintenance in this high maintenance midwest climate.
Put it all back together. New Wolf springs for all the magazines
Fire the weapon to check reliability with each magazine (function testing was already done when received.)
Ship it all back to me.

I got the call today that it was all done. Jeff said he found out why the Scar rifles have all those varying shades.. With the lighter Cerakote colors, lighter and heavier parts come out the oven different shades. All the magazines look identical, but the magazine, dust cover, receiver and barrel are all slightly different. I'm not worried about it, to me I want anything but a black rifle... Jeff being the nit picker than he is, had to apply 3 coats to be sure it was scientific and related to the weight of the part, so I'm sure I have a pretty tough finish on that gun now... Just the trigger, trigger and sear pins and magazine followers and the stock and furniture (pistol and fore grip) are black, everything else is cerakoted.

When Jeff and I discussed it I told him how when I walk in from outside at this time of the year, the rifle is instantly coated in frost which then melts into dew... Thats why I prefer either stainless or a good quality paint. Sacrilege it may be, but life is too short for blued guns in this climate (unless you never take them outside, then it is of no consequence...).

I will only be getting it back next week at the earliest (US mail, insured) so no pictures yet, but be patient... Another Century train wreck rescued and brought back to life...

[macgeoghagen]

wikipedia has a list of them here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_5.56x45mm_NATO_firearms

There are many appealing styles. FN/FAL, AK, Steyer AUG. I would prefer a zastava m90, but they are hard to come by in the US.

[Westcliffe01]

Here are some pictures of the before condition. The picture of the bore is after 3 days of vigorous chemotherapy and about 4 trashed brass and nylon brushes and half a bag of patches. Won't even comment on the chemicals...

[Teg]

I haven't had any problem with my Century's, but I have heard a lot of horror stories about the Golani's, not sure what their problem is with getting these assembled properly.

[Westcliffe01]

Apparently, until CNC Warrior came on the market, all the receivers were basically scrap or at least a total crapshoot. http://www.cncwarrior.com/shop/24099-galil-223-receiver-presale/

If the receivers are junk, nothing else fits and when you start dremeling individual parts to fit, your lost. A lot of guns are built based off of demilled south american weapons that were over 20 years old and everything on them is worn out (that applies to the Apex parts kits, which is the same stuff that Century starts out with). It could be that at one time most of the parts except the receiver were new IMI and the receiver was the major issue, but now IMI parts kits are very expensive to buy and even they now use a US made barrel which is the wrong twist rate.

It seems a lot of people got burned and with the price of the parts kits being so high the demand for receivers has slowed, hence there is a long wait time for pre-ordered CNC warrior receivers. It sounds like the ORF (made in Ohio) receivers have about 15-20% of each batch which are soft and consequently wear out rapidly (bolt lockup area and ejector hook in receiver).

For all of this we apparently have various presidential executive orders to thank...

[Theyeti]

I fired 1K rounds out of mine and other than some small issues with initial break-in(FTE primarily) it really came down to ammo choice. S&B by far performed the best with PMC Bronze coming in right next it. Accuracy was great and I lament ever selling mine. UMC should be strictly avoided with these platforms(consistent FTE).

[Mad_Professor]

I believe the only difference in mil spec 5.56/7.62 and 223/308 chambers, is that military guns need to keep on shooting when not cleaned, AND not SLAM FIRE when not cleaned. Hence more "headspace" for dirty chambers and loading into a filthy throat. Both of which do CRAP for accuracy. So "different" throat, and "sloppy "neck.

All you SIG/FAL/HK shooters, this might account for denigration of the M-14 accuracy. My M-1A match shoots an inch with factory ammo, 20 rds in the same bigger hole. Maybe I got a "good" one"? Want to see what it does with Mil match rounds, I've only a few boxes left.

I'd like to talk to an arrmorer, to see what issue vs. sniper chambers are specced at.

Regardless, shooting Mil spec ammo out of a 223/308 will just "fire form" them to the barrel of a Mil spec gun. If you are shoot a bolt, neck size the brass and you are good to go, with the BEST fit you will get. Oh, yes index your rounds when fire forming, orient the same way , the next load with that shell.

[Mzcry]

If .223/5.56 is important to you, I'd go with the Mini 14.

Otherwise, I'd go with a less expensive caliber, like 5.45, or 7.62.

[Westcliffe01]

I've met a few people at the range shooting mini 14's and they were NOT pleased with the accuracy, even after making various "upgrades". To be fair, they are relatively cheap to begin with, unlike the ar15 rifles at nearly double the price.. (although prices have been coming down).

The minis do seem to work reliably though.

[Pitdog]

Minis are nowhere near cheap, and AR's are definetly NOT twice the price of a mini anymore. Years ago that was the case, nowadays a decent stock M-4 Style AR can be had for under the cost of a mini.
Right now the AR IS driving the market in semi-autos and will be for the foreseeable future. Again, from the standpoint of an 'emergency' rifle the AR wins hands down on all fronts. Ease and availability of parts, inexpensive magazines, user-friendly mission adaptation- i.e. upper swaps for caliber changes depending on the purpose of the shooting to be done.
For all things considered it's the best current choice.
NOT that I don't love other 5.56 rifles, including the Galil, but the Galil is as or more pricey than som AR choices out there, and that is only if you get you don't have to do 500$ worth of work to, and the magazines are very expensive.

[Westcliffe01]

Right now, a Ruger Mini 14 at Buds is $655.

Ruger SR556 AR15 clone = $993

Sig 556 = $1400

DPMS 223 = $650 but can't be compared to the Ruger in quality


Colt AR15 starts at $1070

Smith & Wesson MP15 starts at $650, but that company is not what it used to be, like Walther... The nicer ones are $1200+

So, in my opinion, the Mini 14 is still lumped together with the very cheapest AR's that you can get and a lot cheaper than any of the "better" AR's. In fact, a lot of AK type weapons are now in the same price class as the Mini 14, which is really saying something.


Minis are nowhere near cheap, and AR's are definetly NOT twice the price of a mini anymore.

[Teg]

There are some well built AR's out there that fall outside those companies, lots of small guys that do excellent work. These days a well-made dead basic AR, has roughly the same price point, if not better, than a mini and you have the added benefit of not being a slave to Ruger mags.

Teg

[Westcliffe01]

I bought a DPMS, it was about $850 and it sucked. It was pretty basic. A2 stock, regular hand guard, non ergo pistol grip. Trigger was junk, every magazine was junk (this is a 7.62x39 specific problem). For a long time there was no-one making the magazines anymore. I basically had to fix everything myself.

Replacement AR triggers are really expensive (over $200 for a trigger for a $800 gun ?) I think it is a rip off since the Shilen trigger for my Remington 700 is a lot more complicated than an AR trigger and it only cost $90 and worked perfectly. The trigger on my basket case Golani worked perfectly too.

I get it that AR's generally (the 223 models) work properly, but I just don't like them. The Rugers look nice with the Garand type action, but it doesn't help much if all you get is 5-6MOA which is what I have seen at the range with some unhappy owners.

[Teg]

I don't have any experience with DPMS, but I have heard a few stories both directions. Generally, I find it best to go with the "subject matter expert" in certain areas. For example, when looking for a 7.62x39 rifle, a communist design is probably the way to go, if you are looking for a 5.56 or 7.62x51, go Nato. Not an absolute have to live by of course, just my way of looking at things. :yes4:

Teg

[siletz]

Not long ago I bought a Saiga. Since it is a Russian-made civilian version of the AK, it is actually a 5.56, so it shoots the .223 as well. For its price it is very reliable and durable. It's not as sexy looking as an AR-type of weapon, but if you want a good, cheap .223 it is worth looking into.

[Stinger]

I’m very familiar with the shooting of that round; the cost of AR style weapons is generally too much for me. Bolt action or semi.

So this means that you don’t want to spend anywhere near what even an inexpensive AR style rifle/carbine goes for - Correct? OK, I’ve included a few links for low cost 223 Rem. caliber rifle/carbines at the end of this post.

You bring up good points, Pitdog. Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken, but IIRC, the difference between 223 and 5.56 is the neck angle, with the 5.56 being about one degree steeper. Meaning that the 223 chamber will compress the 5.56 slightly. In a "hard rocking" semi-auto, the round will slam into the front of the 223 chamber hard enough to reform the brass, but will just compress the brass in a bolt or single action gun. .......

Because I don’t like having to write these things twice, here’s a repeat of something I posted somewhere else awhile ago:

I wouldn't. This is one of those gray oddball areas where gun manufacturers like Ruger, in particular, via the pre-series 580 manufacturing specifications; and Colt, in general, via its (ongoing) distribution policy, have either discriminated against, or are presently discriminating against, civilian military-style rifle purchasers.

At face value, 223 Rem. means 223 Rem. 5.56 NATO ammunition has a different case profile. The shoulders are different; and the chambers are not throated the same way. 5.56 cases are thicker and generate considerably more internal pressure than commercial 223 Rem. ammunition.

What it comes down to is that your, 'shooting craps' every time you pull the trigger on a 5.56 round inside your civilian 223 Rem. rifle. Personally, I think this situation is a large part of the way in which commercial, 'M855' ball ammo is sold to the public.

When I ordered my last case of 223/5.56, 162 grain, FMJ, ball ammo from Federal, the boxes all came through stamped as, '223 Remington'. None of the bullets had steel core penetrators, either. As far as I'm concerned what I was really shooting in my AR-15 (M-Forgery) was actually 223 Rem. ammo - Not the 5.56 (M855) NATO ammunition the distributor smoothly passed it off as.

Of course, you realize what this means - Right? If you don't purchase any honest-to-goodness military surplus 5.56 NATO spec. ammo (Like the Lake City Arsenal, or the IMI M855 surplus ammo that's occasionally around) you should be fine shooting commercial grade ammo that's stamped 223/5.56 on the box. (Understand!) Checkout the facts for yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO

This article does, indeed, equate tested pressure standards between 5.56 and 223 to be, more or less, equal; however, if you keep on reading, it becomes apparent that in actual use these tested standards can and do vary widely.

http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html

A quote from the above source: 'The .223 Remington is rated for a maximum of 50,000 CUP while the 5.56mm is rated for 60,000 CUP. That extra 10,000 CUP is likely sufficient to cause a failure in a chamber that's only rated for the "sporting" .223 Remington.'

Military research - primarily conducted by private American arms manufacturers - is responsible for the commercial introduction of both the 308 Winchester and the 223 Remington cartridges.

However, because of their actual corporate origins, each of these civilian chamberings was introduced to the American public BEFORE being made available to the U.S. military. The 308 by a full two years; and the 223 (Which wasn't a very well kept secret.) by one month. So, ya got 'a be careful; and you have to check all the facts for yourself. ;)

....... just the US barrels all have a 1:12 twist vs. the IMI 1:7 twist. Since I already have a varmint 223 that can shoot 0.5MOA, I don't see myself needing to do long range shooting with this gun which dictates 75gr bullets, so I think the 1:12 is probably fine. .......

If that’s true then I’m really screwed. ‘Why’? Because the barrels on all of my 5.56 x 45mm rifle/carbines are 1:7 twist. This twist rate will handle 55 grain, ‘pills’ adequately at close range and can be used for up close and personal home defense. 1:7 also handles 62 grain (M855 equivalent) bullets with good accuracy (typically inside 4 1/2 inches) out to 300 meters; and 72 to 75 grain bullets with very good accuracy all the way out to 6 -7 hundred meters. (in my guns inside 6 inches) I got ‘a ask: Are you one of those who actually shoots this well? I don’t see this kind of marksmanship very often.

Here’s a sampling of relatively INEXPENSIVE 223 Remington caliber rifle/carbines for ya:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/89076/H%26R+Ultra+Varmint+Rifle+.223+24%22+Bull+Laminate

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/41337/Howa+5+%2B+1+223+Rem.+Bolt+Action+Rifle+wBlue+Stee l+Barrel+%26

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/89084

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/mossberg-varmint-bolt-action-rifle-27700-remington-laminated-hardwood-stock-blue-finish-p-124116.html

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/remington-special-purpose-rifle-84189-remington-synthetic-stock-mossy-break-finish-p-122831.html

Or, any of the rifle/carbines described here -

http://www.keltecweapons.com/

Good luck! I hope you find the gun you’re looking for. :)

[ArmySGT.]

There is absolutely no need to guess.

Match the bullet weight to the twist rate of your barrel using the Green hill formula. Here is a simple do it for you calculator.

http://kwk.us/twist.html

Basically light weight bullets less twist or 55 grain .223 at 1 in 12

or 62 grain at 1 in 9.

Light weight bullets will come apart if the twist is to fast, and heavy bullets will key hole without a fast enough twist to impart the centrifugal force to stabilize them.

[navy87guy]

Not long ago I bought a Saiga. Since it is a Russian-made civilian version of the AK, it is actually a 5.56, so it shoots the .223 as well. For its price it is very reliable and durable. It's not as sexy looking as an AR-type of weapon, but if you want a good, cheap .223 it is worth looking into.

I have Saigas in both 7.62x39 and 12 gauge. They are great weapons. I converted both of mine to the AK configuration and they are my "go to" weapons.

I'd suggest a hard look at a Saiga - it won't let you down!

[Westcliffe01]

I don't have anywhere to shoot to 600 yards, but I can get out to 400 with a stretch. I have shot some 3" groups at 350, but that is with my Remington 700 Varmint 223 with 26" heavy barrel. I should mention that there was a light wind and the wind drift with the 55gr Vmax was already 10". That was why I mentioned the barrel twist rate issue.

It is not easy to get a factory bolt gun in 223 with the fast twist (7-8). The Savage 10 Precision carbine I found has a 1:9. I have yet to see if it will stabilise the 75gr BTHP from Hornady. They are not as long as the VLD's. Ideally though, I will probably get a match barrel in 1:8 or 1:7 for the high BC bullets without any of the issues one has with a semi auto (OAL too long for the magazine). The Savage is the only rifle where I think it financially makes sense to get into match barrels, since on the others you will never get the money back. Some of course want to use it up, not even mention get anything back...

I think if for some reason I needed to go longer than 400 I would switch to a 243. But the vitals on a coyote are not that big a target and they virtually never stop moving, so I find you need to shoot pretty accurate and figure out how much to lead and add or deduct for the wind (all dynamically) and that is a pretty tough game.

If that’s true then I’m really screwed. ‘Why’? Because the barrels on all of my 5.56 x 45mm rifle/carbines are 1:7 twist.

and 72 to 75 grain bullets with very good accuracy all the way out to 6 -7 hundred meters. (in my guns inside 6 inches) I got ‘a ask: Are you one of those who actually shoots this well? I don’t see this kind of marksmanship very often.

[Westcliffe01]

So finally last weekend I got out to the range with the Savage 10 precision carbine I recently bought. I ordered a Warne 20MOA one piece optics rail and already had the Nikon Monarch 4-16x50 scope and Warne Maxima steel rings. I loctited the Rail in place on the receiver as well as the threads of the 4 bolts that hold it in place. I did not use any loctite on the rings or ring fasteners since a 223 does not have much recoil to begin with.

As far as ammo, I had 223 Hornady TAP 55gr as well as Hornady 75gr HPBT match ammo. I was not able to buy an in between weight at the local stores and I do not buy "so called" military ammo for precision shooting. I did get 69gr sierra HPBT bullets and Hornady 68gr HPBT bullets but have not yet made up a batch to shoot. I have been shooting 55gr Hornady ammo for a while in my Remington 700 SPS Varmint (26" 1:12 twist). While I have been satisfied with the accuracy of the combination, longer shots (250-350 yards) have been significantly influenced by wind and the topography I am dealing with makes wind influence very unpredictable.

So the goal with the Savage was to evaluate the capability with the heavier bullets to about 75gr (1:9 twist barrel). I did not know if the 1:9 would stabilize a 75gr bullet and one of the reasons for choosing the Hornady bullet is because it is one of the shortest 75gr bullets. Those from Berger and the Amax are all longer. If things were not that good, or I felt the need to go to even heavier VLD's, then the Savage would be an affordable platform on which to swap out the barrel for a fast twist match version. This is my first Savage and also my first rifle with the accutrigger as well as an accustock.

http://keithandseija.com/pictures/Hunting/Savage10-1.JPG http://keithandseija.com/pictures/Hunting/Savage10_75grHPBT100yd.JPG
Target is for 4 rounds of 75gr hollow point boat tail Match ammo from Hornady.
So after arriving and sighting in the scope on the rifle at 25 yards (which required a few minutes of elevation correction) I moved on to 100 yards and 4 rounds of Hornady 55gr TAP ammo. After the first round, I made a -4moa elevation adjustment, the remaining 3 rounds gave a 1/2" group, despite the gusting winds and swirl. I had also forgotten my bench rest, so was shooting from basically "field" conditions.

The next 4 rounds were the 75gr HPBT Hornady rounds and that also yielded a 1/2" group. So it appears that for conditions close to freezing with snow falling (relatively high humidity) I have enough stability margin with the 1:9 twist for the 75gr bullet. How these bullets will perform on Coyotes ? I don't know yet, but if I can hit them, it is unlikely they will return. That, for the sheep farmer, is the most important thing...