Armed ladies

[MamaLiberty]

Since I'm new here, I'd love to talk with any other ladies who carry a firearm consistently.

I am a Certified NRA instructor for handguns and self defense, also teach concealed carry.

My own preference is open carry, a Springfield XD compact .45 in a desk rider holster just forward of the right hip. I carry all the time, everywhere I go, even at home for the most part.

What do you carry and how? Holster or other carry problems? Training you've taken and what you might like to take. Any you didn't like and why...

Let's talk! Everything I learn from you will help my students - and me, of course! :)

[GrannySyl]

I'm 60+ years old, so, not as flexible as I used to be.
I'm short (5 foot nothin) and slightly over weight.
Holster carry is difficult, and concealed (on body) carry is nearly impossible.
At home (we live on 65 acres)I've come to a reasonable solution. I wear a carpenters, bib type, apron. 357 fits nicely in the front pocket.

Away from home I usually have to purse carry.
Any suggestions? :)

[gwhilikerz]

GrannySil I'm a man so take this for what it is worth. If you wear anything with a waistband take a look at Hip Grip. It is replacement grips that feature a notch to hang over the waistband or belt. I've been using them for many years.

[MamaLiberty]

Glad to meet you! I'm 62, 5 ft. 1 in. and a bit "plump" myself! LOL

Here is my picture:
http://thepriceofliberty.org/images/mama/rifle08.jpg

This was taken at the local gun show last spring. I had just bought the rifle.

I carry the XD compact .45 in that holster openly most of the time, but all I have to do is toss a shirt over it and it vanishes. But it remains easy to get at.

How you carry and your holster depends a lot on where you are, if you MUST conceal or not, and your personal preferences.

That said, I would highly discourage carrying any gun in a pocket without a solid holster. Too easy to have things get into the trigger guard, and for lint/other to get into the action. That's just asking for either an unintended discharge or a gun that won't function if you needed it.

Personally, I will not carry in a purse or otherwise off my body. It's too easy for a purse to get set down or someone to cut the strap and grab it. But you are the only one who knows what you are comfortable with. That is just my thinking.

I would suggest you take a comprehensive concealed carry class. The instructor will have many different holsters and carry options to demonstrate and let you try out. You might be surprised at some of the options available to you. :)

[GrannySyl]

Sorry, I shoud have mentioned that I have a "pocket holster" in the apron pocket, and the purse has a built in holster. I live in Oklahoma, so, open carry is only possible a home.
I have taken a concealed carry class.

The "Hip Grip" sounds interesting, I'm going to try to find one of those.

Since my husband has had a stroke. I am responsible for the security and maintainance of our home. Guns are a tool for the removal of coyotes. snakes, wild dog packs, and the security of our home.

[Dawgus]

I can't get the mrs to come on here, but she carries a Walther TPH with CCI Stingers. Not my top choice for her, but she didn't like anything bigger at all.

[snake]

I can't get the mrs to come on here, but she carries a Walther TPH with CCI Stingers. Not my top choice for her, but she didn't like anything bigger at all.
:) Same here. My wife carries my old off duty gun, a Colt Cobra .38 Special w/ the hollow point ammo.

[MamaLiberty]

Gentlemen, just a suggestion here:

If your wife or g/f carries anything, she's better off than most other women in the country. It is far more important that she carries SOMETHING, consistently, than exactly what or how she carries.

YOU can help assure that she will always be ready to defend herself if you treat her as a mature adult who can and should make up her own mind. Then respect the decision she makes. If she wants to talk about making changes, she will ask you or someone else.

Just 2 cents worth from a stubborn old lady. :)

[Wyobuckaroo]

Howdy

A number of years ago I worked with a bunch of construction engineers that had worked on a similar processing plant near Johanesberg South Africa.

When they were first there they and there wives were surprised to find most every womans purse was "just a little too heavy"

But that was a different time in a different place...........

Wyo

[duckidaho]

One of my ex-girlfriends carried a S+W .22 pistol. She didn't like the recoil and size of a bigger gun. The NRA instructor assured her that if she shot an attacker 9 times in 2 seconds with .22's they would stop bothering her. Good advice, I thought.

[MamaLiberty]

One of my ex-girlfriends carried a S+W .22 pistol. *She didn't like the recoil and size of a bigger gun. *The NRA instructor assured her that if she shot an attacker 9 times in 2 seconds with .22's they would stop bothering her. *Good advice, I thought.

Any gun is better than none. Mostly that's because an attacker isn't likely to challenge someone they know is armed - and are not apt to argue caliber at the time.

HOWEVER, there are attackers who just don't care and will keep coming even when hit.

A .22LR can be an excellent round in the right place. Shot placement is critical because it doesn't have much penetration power. You can kill a grizzly bear with it if you hit him in the eye, but it's going to bounce off his big hard skull. A man is not much different that way.

I seriously doubt anyone is going to have time to get off more than a few shots against a determined attacker. Therefore, I'm going to carry the largest caliber I can comfortably shoot. I intend to make those few shots count - which means to stop the attack.

If he dies, I can't help it. It was always his choice.

[NowKnowYe]

I am trying to get my wife to come with me to the range to try out a couple of .22 lr revolvers. I'm almost there... :D

[Woody]

There were three ladies in a class I took recently and all three had J frame 38 S&W's but none were planning to carry on their person with a holster. They wanted to carry in purse or fanny pack.

Woody

[Rimfire_Red]

I am looking for a CC pistol. My dilema is that I am small (5'4" and 120# fully dressed WITH my boots on). I really like the small Walther and Ruger LCP because I can actully fit one in my jeans pocket (didn't think about the lint until I read that up above) and it looks like my wad of keys! I have a single six, but get sore hips from the weight just out in the yard with one in the holster. (With snake shot they will take out a rattler tho" :) I am more inclined to take it with me if it is comfortable to carry (like the two listed above), but wonder if cost and availabilty of ammo for those will be an even bigger issue than 45ACP or 9MM with the new administration's wishes. Any thoughts?

Oh, and if you haven't, pull up and READ HR 45 2009 introduced by Senator Rush from Ill. on Jan. 6th. Anyone who gives a RIP about the Constitution needs to be aware of this.

[MamaLiberty]

Rimfire_Red, have you taken a good class for concealed carry? Your instructor should be able to help you find at least one or more solutions for your questions about which gun to choose and how to carry it. I've known women much smaller than you who could carry substantial guns without a wrinkle. It's not easy for us shorties, but it is certainly possible. I can conceal the big .45 in the wink of an eye with the right cover garment.

As for ammunition, get it NOW. I'm afraid that the time is coming when none will be either affordable or easy to find, and we may find ourselves called criminals for having any at all.

HR45 is probably dead for now. It will most likely come to that eventually, but I think we have a little time yet.

See the Sipsey Street Irregulars for more details on that.
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/

[10ACZ_GAL]

Any gun is better than none. Mostly that's because an I'm going to carry the largest caliber I can comfortably shoot. I intend to make those few shots count - which means to stop the attack.



With the new administration here, I took the 1st step and exercized my right to own a gun. A 9mm. 2nd step is to get my carry permit. Dh reloads so that won't be a problem.

[MamaLiberty]

*With the new administration here, I took the 1st step and exercized my right to own a gun. A 9mm. 2nd step is to get my carry permit. Dh reloads so that won't be a problem.


That's great! Congratulations.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, however, I will urge you to go beyond whatever class was required for the permit and get some solid training in actual self defense - if you have not already done so.

Target shooting and self defense have a gun in common, but little else. And guns suitable for defense are often not the best for targets.

Also, training designed for cops and military are NOT going to help you much. Be sure to find an instructor who teaches self defense for ordinary citizens, not cops. I've adapted this to teach the things women especially need to know and practice.

In any case - learn and practice serious situational awareness, avoidance of confrontations where possible, and solid home defense using ALL the tools available.

The gun, and lethal force, are the LAST resort. Only training and careful preparation will make any of your efforts effective and have any chance to keep you safe.

Owning a gun, and even carrying it, are not enough.

[MinotBob]

Congratulations on your decision to be responsible for your own safety and well being. Shooting reloads and reloading itself is fund and certainly saves money. BUT please don't carry reloads for self defense! Unless you are prepared to defend yourself against a lawyer who will not doubt accuse you of making super cartridges for killing people. Stick with good quality self defense factory loads when you carry.

[10ACZ_GAL]

Thanks for the advice. I'm thinking of using the reloads for target practice.

I haven't taken the carry class yet, still trying to sort out the good and the bad. It seems like everybody & their brother are instructors now.

[jlwilson]

I think it's really great to see that more women are getting involved with firearms. I took my handgun safety class in 1994 while going through a rough divorce. It was the first time I'd ever touched a handgun. I was lucky enough to get introduced to competition handgun shooting and competed in the International Defensive Pistol Association (www.idpa.com).

I got so interested in shooting that I immediately took the hunter safety class. I was hooked. Since then, I've been really fortunate to take some really good classes such as Massad Ayoob's LFI - 1 and 2, Thunder Ranch's Team Tactics, and have trained with Ken Hackathorn and Rob Haught.

I'm really blessed for having met my husband at a shooting match and now get to play with firearms all the time. Although we don't shoot competitively anymore, I get to hunt lots. And it all started with a concealed carry class.

I carry a .45 as well. Stopping power is really important. And MamaLiberty, you're absolutely right get that ammo now because it's in pretty short supply. Even reloading components are getting tougher to find.

I'd recommend that after anyone takes a concealed carry class, either find someone to practice with or do a little competition shooting to hone your skills. You've got to practice to be proficient.

[MamaLiberty]

Competition shooting is a lot of fun, and helps a lot with accuracy, but - once again being a broken record - I must warn folks not to confuse that with self defense training.

It just isn't the same thing.

Learn about self defense in real life situations YOU may face. Does competition shooting help you prepare and practice a home defense plan? Does it prepare you for a home invasion? A car jacking?

Learn all the other things you need to do so the gun can truly be the last resort.

I've heard that some of the big schools have introduced classes just for women, but have no idea if they are teaching anything useful. But how many of us are ever going to be able to go to these places? Not many. Most of us just don't have the money and time.

So, if there are a lot of less exalted instructors around, that's great. They may not offer "Gunsight" level material, but then we all can't drive a Cadillac either.

Find something you can afford that will give you the skills you need to survive. Then practice and hone those skills regularly, learning more as you find opportunity. Go to Gunsight or whatever if you can.

Just don't wait until you can afford that to start training.

[jlwilson]

As a matter of fact, the International Defensive Pistol Association does in fact teach about house clearing and pieing corners, not exposing body parts in tactical situations, shooting in and from vehicles and many other self-defense techniques. All using practical self-defense handguns from everyday carry holsters.

Although it is in fact competition, many civilians and law enforcement individuals use it to hone self-defense and gun handling skills. And it is a whole lot cheaper than 'Gunsight' level training. The neatest thing is that you get to meet lots of like-minded people who may know a whole lot more about firearms than you will which is exactly how I got to meet some of the best trainers in the business. And they're all really friendly and willing to help new shooters.

And there are lots of good books on self-defense as well. Massad's book, 'In the Gravest Extreme' should be required reading for anyone that wants to carry a firearm for self-defense.

[MamaLiberty]

house clearing and pieing corners, not exposing body parts in tactical situations, shooting in and from vehicles and many other self-defense techniques.


Somehow, I'm just not saying this right, I guess.

"House clearing" is NOT something any woman in a home defense situation is EVER going to do... if she's smart! I'm not sure what "pieing corners" is, and I'm not likely to ever need to shoot from a vehicle... that sounds like cop stuff to me. If you like it, go for it, but don't fool yourself that it's all you need.

I'm talking about making a sound home defense plan, with safe rooms and adequate preparations for possible disruption of phone and elect by the BG... How would you call 911 if the phone line was cut? How will your children know what to do, and will they obey without question? What do you do when the police come? Who do you call after a defensive shooting - is the lawyer the only one you can think of? Do you know what the legal implications are in your area for that defensive shooting?

Have you really studied your home to understand how you might prevent a break in or what objects would be good cover? Do you know the difference between cover and concealment - IN YOUR HOME?

Do you practice solid situational awareness each and every day, especially when out of your home? Or do you jog or walk with earphones on, or daydream when you are in heavy traffic?

The list goes on and one... things you need to know and practice, especially things you can do to AVOID a shooting situation if at all possible.

Competition is fun, good, exciting and may well teach a lot of things you need to know. But it is NOT the same as real self defense training, by any means.

[jlwilson]

Have you ever heard of Massad Ayoob? Have you ever heard of Lethal Forces Institute? Have you read 'In the Gravest Extreme'? I have. Along with countless other self-defense sources of information.

My husband has taught me more about self-defense and survival on greater depths than I would ever go into on a public forum.

I live guns and up until a couple of years ago, training. And yes competition is fun AND very useful. There is no such thing as REAL self-defense training. Have you ever been down-range while someone is shooting beside you so that you know what that experience is like? I have. I've held targets for someone to shoot. You may think that is irresponsible. It is training; real life training so you know what it sounds like when a bullet passes you. It's real life training to not freak out when someone is shooting at you. I AM NOT suggesting that you or anyone else train like this. This is a very advanced drill that should only be done with people of a very high skill level.

House clearing. It's not just for cops. For anyone that has kids and thinks that they're not going to go check on them if they hear glass breaking or a noise in the middle of the night, they will. Every time.

Carjacking. How many situations could be solved if armed women defended themselves against thugs trying to carjack them. How many rapes and murders could be avoided. I used to do a whole lot of traveling alone in a vehicle. Talk about being vulnerable. Its one of the reasons I decided to teach.

Competition is very valuable. Do you know how to clear malfunctions of your weapon under the pressure of time? If, God forbid, you ever did get into a situation that you had a stovepipe in your semi-auto in a real gun fight, would you know how to efficiently clear it and get back in the fight? Or do you just lay down your weapon and let the drugged perp rape and kill you.

The key is not to believe that any NRA course or other concealed carry course is going to prepare you for what the real world may hold. Get all the training you can possibly afford if you are going to be armed. Competition is an easy way to develop very useful skills in a very cost-effective manner.

You're right, the list goes on and on. Especially in the world right now as we know it. It's changing and it could really get ugly. Anything we can do to prepare is really good.

Joyce Wilson
Wilson Combat
International Defensive Pistol Association

[BlackWidow]

Hey Joyce,

I had to read a thread called "Armed Ladies" I was reading your first few posts and said to my "significant other" "I wonder if that is Joyce Wilson" when lo and behold I get down to the bottom of your message and see that it is! Great to see you here too Joyce.

Joyce really knows what she's talking about.

Gail Pepin
ProArms Podcast

[MamaLiberty]

Joyce, I'm sure you are very well trained and proficient. I'm very glad for you, and for anyone you can teach. But we are still talking about two different things here in a lot of ways.

How many women do you think will have the time, money and physical ability to go through the kind of training you are talking about? Not many, no matter how good it is or how desirable it is.

Most of the people who successfully defend themselves do not have much training at all. The will to survive and the will to use whatever tools they have is actually the most important.

And yes, I am the survivor of a violent attack. I had to shoot a man to save my life. I spent 14 years on the mean streets of Southern California, with situational awareness as my ONLY defensive tool.

I am prepared to fight back, regardless of the situation, because I have the will to fight, to survive, and to prevail.

This is what I teach along with the basic gun handling. I teach these women to practice the simple skills needed to make a home defense plan, and especially to practice situational awareness. I teach women in their 70s, in wheelchairs, in every kind of physical condition.

Most of them will never have any opportunity to reach your skill level, but they CAN learn to defend themselves and survive. Unfortunately, they can easily be discouraged from doing anything if they think they must reach your level of skill in order to defend themselves at all!

So, we work different sides of this street. Let's just not confuse the two. :)

[dearg]

Hey ya'll hope you don't mind a noobie commenting.

I am a 50+ woman and am licensed for concealed carry. Yeah, I carry all the time. I do have three methods for carry, ankle holster, belly band and inside the waist band, that I carry as a cross draw. It all depends on the situation, just like anything else you dress for the activity. When I get dressed my holster selection is no different than when I decide what shoes to wear.

I don't want to cross any noobie lines here in my comments, but the scenario of the safe room doesn't always work as in any type of battle it all changes when the enemy appears. We live in a very rural area, no cell phone service unless I run outside and up a hill, not good!! LOL.. As for the safe room we live in a mobile home, we have tried to reinforce the door but it is just not going to stop anyone. It took me two kicks to open it!! Walls are thin wouldn't stop spit, so I use my gun safe as concealment and cover. It usually takes the LEO's at least 20 minutes to get to our area, that is a long dang time when you are in that situation..

I have taken defensive training in handgun, shotgun and rifle which included room clearing. As with any life and death situation adrenaline can be your friend or enemy. If you learn to shoot in a high stress situation it will be a great help. Unless you are able to gather all the family in the safe room, you have problems. As was said in a comment previous, no one is going to sit in a room while their children are in danger. And a person needs to learn target ID, you don't want to come out of that room only to panic and shoot a family member.

As to physical limitations I just got through with a over 50 class in defensive handguns, I took this with a friend who needed moral support for the course.. But any training is good. Friend is over 60 and 80 pounds over weight she also has knee and back problems. She came through the course with a lot of knowledge, renewed confidence, and some great skills.

A person needs to chose a course that supports their abilities. All training is good, a person just has to make the choice how far they are willing to go for protection..

Sorry to be so long winded and hope I didn't come off to annoying.. ;D

[MamaLiberty]

No problems, and thanks for your input.

The idea of a "safe room" is not to prepare some bunker - though that's nice if you can. The idea is to have one place where all family members KNOW to gather (and stay) when the signal is given. It's a place where one keeps the arms, ammunition and supplies needed for defense and survival. There are a million variations, since there are a million situations and people. The training I give simply gets people to CONSIDER all that and make plans that fit their own home and families, not a cookie cutter "plan."

The same goes for all the rest of it. Different people have different needs, talents, resources and goals. The ideal training satisfies at least some of those.

My students are primarily interested in learning how to use a gun. They have, so far, been very grateful to be challenged to actually think about and plan for things they might otherwise never have even considered - such as a home defense plan, or ongoing practice of what they learn.

All of them are encouraged to seek and make use of any other training they can find and afford. I don't pretend to provide everything they need, just a starting point - at least for those who are willing and able to seek more.

[dearg]

You are doing a great service MamaLiberty wish there were more women instructors. I know to many women that will not take a class because there are men instructors only. And we all have to start somewhere and that usually opens up a whole avenue of thoughts.

I have several friends that have never shot, well I tried to help them but honestly am not that patient.. I do what I can though..

Just a thanks for what you do...

[MamaLiberty]

You are so welcome!

Just a suggestion. You may not think you have the patience, or the skills to teach, but I'll bet you do. Take someone new to the range at least once a month. No "program" or plan, just show them the basic rules, let them shoot even a .22, and let them enjoy the feeling of being empowered.

Once they can overcome their fear and conditioning, they may be able to take a regular class taught - even by a "man!" LOL Most of the ladies I talked to were far more intimidated by the guns themselves, not the men instructors - though there are some who do not relate to women well.

I've been teaching for nearly 30 years, starting with my nursing career, so it comes naturally to me. But I always use the students themselves to teach each other, because we learn more WHEN we teach others.

Don't wait until you are a professional or "finished with training" or for anything else. Teach anyone you can reach.

[jlwilson]

MamaLiberty,

But we're not talking about different things. I'm just extolling the virtue of competition as an aid to training in the basics of gun handling and it seems like you are anti-competition. Have you even heard of IDPA? I certainly realize that competition is not training, but I'm getting the impression that you think it's detrimental for some reason.

I remember taking my first handgun class to get a concealed carry permit. It was a great class that followed the NRA training curriculum plus and I realized when I left that I still had lots of unanswered questions. I could safely load and unload my firearm and hit the target in front of me, but I knew nothing about self-defense.

Through the encouragement of the instructors of the course that I took, I started shooting the sport of the International Defensive Pistol Association. I learned more about gun-handling and shooting under stress than I could have ever learned in any class. Furthermore, I met people who knew lots more than me and were willing to teach me what they knew. Along with that, I met lots of like-minded people to associate with. It was a total win-win situation. Had I not taken my instructors suggestion, I probably wouldn't even know about this website today.

Maybe you don't like competition shooting for some reason, but at least give your students the benefit of the doubt and suggest it as a training aid. Who knows they might actually like it and become better shooters. Maybe they'll even meet some new friends who are like-minded and will help them become better shooters or introduce them to hunting which could save their lives if times get really tough.

Hey Gail! Great to see you here! Tell your 'significant other' I said hello. Hope to see you all soon!

Joyce

[MamaLiberty]

No, Joyce, I am not "against" competition, and have carefully explained that above several times. It is great for those who are interested in it. I simply do not regard it as adequate training in self defense for most women. It can be a great ADDITION to the right training, but not a substitute.

I keep trying to make the point that most people, women especially, do not have a great deal of time or money to invest in any kind of advanced training. In my experience, it is a great achievement to get them to take the NRA Personal Protection series after the basic handgun course. I have spent years and a lot of effort adapting the basic material to include as much real time, honest information on self defense as is possible, simply because most of them will never get any other training in spite of my urgent encouragement for them to do so.

I've taken training from several professional outfits, and I provide information - as well as a personal endorsement - for all of them. So far, only one has followed up on it. We are in an isolated location here, and there is very little opportunity for further training without traveling long distances and spending a great deal of time and money in the process. Those with greater opportunities are lucky indeed.

So, the difference between the ideal and the reality will always be vast, at least where I live. We do what we can with what we have at hand.

[docsoos]

BUT please don't carry reloads for self defense! Unless you are prepared to defend yourself against a lawyer who will not doubt accuse you of making super cartridges for killing people. Stick with good quality self defense factory loads when you carry.

*I am confused; I have heard this argument for MANY years now, and I'd like to hear the justification for this statement. And MinotBob, I am NOT trying to "pick a fight" with you personally, just trying to see your side of this opinion.

I have personally reloaded handgun and rifle cartridges for 25+ years. HOW exactly could ANYone, the cop filling out the paperwork, possibly a prosecuting attorney, or an attorney for the scumbag's family that got shot/removed from the gene pool, POSSIBLY KNOW that the ammunition in one's gun was a reload? Unless one volunteers the information and/or BRAGS about it? If one were to do this, you are just giving the "forces of evil" more ammo against YOU. Not very intelligent, in my opinion. *

MOST cops, prosecuting attorneys and their ilk do NOT have the motivation OR the technical expertise to determine whether a round used in a justifiable homicide was a reload or factory ammo, UNLESS one were to "tip them off" that it was in fact a reload, and this would just give them one more tidbit of information that would be twisted for their own purposes, usually for some prosecuting attorney to put a feather in his political cap, projecting to the public the image that he/she is "tough on crime", even though one would just be exercising their God-given right to self-defense.

"Loose Lips Sink Ships". That was a quality slogan during WW II, and it still applies today. Reloaded ammunition is almost ALWAYS superior to factory ballistics, and when YOUR life is being threatened, wouldn't you want the MAXIMUM power available to keep you alive, and safe from harm? I sure would. Were I to load my own self-defense ammo (and I DO from time to time), I use ONLY new components (i.e. FACTORY-NEW brass and bullets), so as to remove ANY possibility of that round malfunctioning at the WORST possible time. That few cents saved by using once-fired brass would be false economy, when your life could be on the line. *

And finally, what exactly is the purpose of ammunition for a self-defense handgun? Answer: TO KILL THE PERSON ATTEMPTING TO KILL OR MAIM YOU. What's the difference if it's MARGINALLY going to kill the alleged perpetrator, or DEFINITELY going to kill the alleged perpetrator? The desired end result should be the same: to STOP the attack that threatens you. Dead is Dead is Dead. As long as one is JUSTIFIED in using deadly physical force (and this is a NARROW justification for civilians and most cops, and can vary wildly from state to state), the type of ammunition used should be a non-issue, unless, as I mentioned before, some over-zealous, politically-motivated prosecutor is looking to "further his career" at someone's expense, and they just happen to give them the tools to put them away for what SHOULD be an open-and-shut case of self-defense.

Hearty congratulations to all of you ladies that are "packing heat". My wife of 24 years never touched a handgun years ago, and now carries one daily, because contrary to what the powers that be would have us all believe, the world IS a dangerous place, and they CANNOT and WILL NOT be there to protect you 24/7, and furthermore, are not LEGALLY OBLIGATED TO DO SO. YOU are responsible for your OWN safety, and I applaud you ALL for doing so.

Good Luck, Be Safe, and above all, SHOOT STRAIGHT.

DocSoos *

[MamaLiberty]

I'd have to disagree with only one thing here. The purpose of self defense is not to kill an attacker. The ONLY legal and moral purpose is to STOP the attack.

I want to shoot in such a way as to maximize that stopping power, of course, but the PURPOSE is to stop the attack, nothing else.

I would not shoot to KILL. I would shoot to live. If the attacker dies as a consequence, that is their own responsibility.

As for reloads, they are only as good as the technique of the person who loads them. Personally, I prefer factory loads... as long as I can get them.

[tufhelp]

"I would not shoot to KILL. I would shoot to live. If the attacker dies as a consequence, that is their own responsibility. "

Great turn of phrase... Intent is the key to surviving the aftermath of legal entanglements. If asked "Did you mean to kill the perpetrator?" I think I now have a clear and concise answer... "Damn straight I did, pretty good shootin' even if I do say so myself!", will be kept strictly to myself.

[docsoos]

I'd have to disagree with only one thing here. The purpose of self defense is not to kill an attacker. The ONLY legal and moral purpose is to STOP the attack.

I want to shoot in such a way as to maximize that stopping power, of course, but the PURPOSE is to stop the attack, nothing else.

I would not shoot to KILL. I would shoot to live. If the attacker dies as a consequence, that is their own responsibility.

As for reloads, they are only as good as the technique of the person who loads them. Personally, I prefer factory loads... as long as I can get them.

Disagreement noted.

I'm pretty sure if the perp is dead, the attack WILL stop, and I'll live. To each his own, but I suspect you feel the same way as I, as evidenced by the statement "If the attacker dies as a consequence, that is their own responsibility".

Also, if one just shoots to wound them, they'll be around to tearfully tell a jury about how you went out of your way to maim them; "...it was ALL a case of mistaken identity/intent, your honor; THROW AWAY THE KEY ON THAT EVIL, VIOLENT GUN OWNER!"

Dead men tell no tales, in my experience. He wouldn't BE dead, if HE didn't initiate a violent act in the first place.

And on a personal note, should I ever have to use my weapon in self-defense, the only two things that anyone would hear from me will be:

1. "I FEARED FOR MY LIFE!"

And, if they (the police) intend to take me in for questioning,

2. "I need to call my lawyer."

Nothing else would be said by me. My intent will be conveyed by my lawyer, describing how I just wanted to stop the attack, as you all have said previously. Sad fact of legal life today.

DocSoos

[MamaLiberty]

Also, if one just shoots to wound them


Just to be perfectly clear here. I'm not talking about a deliberate miss "to wound them."

IF I am forced to shoot, it will be to the heart/lung triangle for a man, the pelvic triangle for a woman, and then a head shot if that doesn't stop them. A deliberate miss with the intention to "wound" is plain stupid and could get you killed.

But that does not change the INTENT of my actions.

I am NOT "shooting to kill." I am shooting to end the attack, period. Big, BIG difference.

Whatever happens in the course of that action happens, but I've got to live with myself afterward regardless of the legal outcome.

[nhlivefreeordie]

Lynn hasn't signed up here yet, but will at some point. Anyway, this past February 10th she stated that she wanted to finally get her gun for Valentines Day. ...Excellent...so Valentines Day we were off to the gun shop and she picked out This 9mm Millenium Pro from Taurus, Monday morning saw her applying for her CCW and two weeks later another armed female entered the ranks.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/dj88ryr/111SSP.jpg

[CastIronCook2]

Mama Liberty, under what conditions would a .38 revolver be any use at all against a cougar? They walk our California ranch in broad daylight, in increasing numbers.

[nhlivefreeordie]

Fair is fair then, I would be walking the ranch with a 30.06 rifle.

[Stinger]

:) Just a few thoughts after perusing this thread: First, you’re better off if the holster carries the pistol either straight up and down, or with a 15 degree forward (FBI) cant. Trust me on this; I do a lot of fast draw practice; and, over the years, I’ve learned what does and doesn’t work as well as it should.

I’m inclined to agree with the comments on hording ammunition. I started to do just that at the beginning of this year. Now, I won’t, ‘burn ammo’ unless it comes out of a new box, right off a Wal-Mart shelf, or else from my reloading bench and made with recently purchased supplies.

It’s true IDPA shooting is NOT the same thing as self-defense pistol combat shooting; still, IDPA competitions AND practice sessions are very well worth any time you might put into them. If nothing else you’ll learn how to handle your pistol while under a moderate level of physical and emotional stress. You’ll also find that your personal pistol handling habits will be carefully scrutinized – and, even, if you’re very good – reinforced, and driven home.

There are two or three NRA publications that I recommend to everyone who’s just starting out with handgunning:

(1) NRA Guide To The Basics Of Personal Protection In The Home (http://www.nrastore.com/nra/Product.aspx?productid=PB%2001781)

(2) NRA Guide To The Basics Of Personal Protection Outside The Home (http://www.nrastore.com/nra/Product.aspx?productid=PB%2001765)

(3) The Concealed Handgun Manual ( http://www.nrastore.com/nra/Product.aspx?productid=PB%2001565)

Even after doing these things for more years than I feel like counting, I still very much enjoyed reading these books for myself. I’ve had a very difficult time trying to get my own wife to consistently carry a concealed handgun. Things started out great! (Well, sort of!) She almost got her brand new Sonata carjacked by a couple of young bangers. She got home over an hour late that night, and walked through the door with the remark; ‘My life was just saved by the spirit of my recently departed mother!’

(I always knew if I waited long enough, that woman would be of some sort of good use, someday!) :D

I looked away from the screen, thought for a moment, and replied; ‘What did you say?’ Immediately after this, (hopefully) ‘once in a lifetime event’ the woman had a fire lit under her to learn how to handle a pistol. First thing I did was to give her the books mentioned above. After she had read them from cover-to-cover, I added Jeff Cooper’s, ‘Four Rules Of Gun Safety’ to the list of required reading, and insisted that she know these rules by rote BEFORE I started any range work with her.

My wife is a very gentle person; and, while it’s true that she studied and practiced both riflery and wingshooting as a young girl, handling a pistol was entirely new to her. Before we went to the range, I let her try every handgun in the safe; nothing really suited her; and, I could tell that any of the semiautomatic pistols tended to confuse her. So, it was off to the sport shop we went. There my favorite gunsmith helped her to pick out a nice new Ruger SP-101 in 357 magnum caliber.

I had gunsmith Chuck Lutz (a retired production manager for Kimber, New York, and a personal friend of Todd Jarrett) do a nice action-polishing job on this pistol; then, I had it fitted with a hard rubber Hogue Monogrip. At the range I started her out with crappy range ammo; I, never once, mentioned to her that the 357 magnum can be a, ‘bear’ to control during rapid fire. I worked her hard for several weeks; and, every time we were almost finished shooting, I’d switch her over to, ‘full house’ magnum loads.

She knew I was changing her ammunition; still, the only comment she ever made was to the effect that the last several cylinders seemed to kick more. Whenever she said this, I’d take that excellent little Ruger away from her and fired 5 rounds into COM as fast as I could pull the trigger and from, about, twice as far away as she was shooting from. (7-8 yards) She got the message! After 3 or 4 months of this she developed into a very decent pistolero who could handle a 3” barreled revolver with, both, confidence and skill.

[Stinger]

The really hard part about training her was in exactly, ‘How’ to behave if she ever had to actually, ‘go to the gun’. I taught her to always anticipate the other guy; I showed her how very important it is to protect a 20 or 30 foot circle around your body, and not to be shy about issuing commands like; ‘Stop!’ ‘Don’t come any closer.’ ‘I’m afraid of you; I have a gun; and I’m ready to use it!’

She learned to place one hand on the butt of her pistol without initially revealing it, and the other hand on her cell phone which I wanted her to display for all the world to see. I explained to her the importance of simply dialing 911 – Even if you’re unable to speak. (If a police dispatcher has to, he can find you by nothing more than analyzing the signal.) In order to keep her, ‘politically correct’ I, also, explained both the tactical necessity as well as the legal obligation to retreat from a potentially deadly conflict whenever possible.

‘Blading’, staying off the wall, ‘cutting the pie’ on corners, and ambush tactics for stairs or hallways were not really appropriate subjects for strictly self-defense use. Instead, I impressed upon her the necessity to always carry two extra speed reloads; and, I taught her how to be quick and certain with a speedloader. (Jim Cirillo's strong hand method!)

Guess what? Just when I was starting to feel really proud of myself for bringing her along so quickly and so well, voila, her company published a new policy on weapons in the workplace and there went the handgun in her purse! Unfortunately, once she fell out of the habit of constantly carrying a pistol, she quickly gravitated to not carrying one at all. The initial shock and terror of being accosted wore off after about 6 months; and, she started to get really, 'cute' with me.

I began to hear all the usual crap. ‘It’s too heavy.’ ‘I don’t like using a shoulder bag in order to carry the gun.’ ‘I don’t want to wear a belt holster; it makes me look fat!’ Then there’s my personal favorite; ‘What do I need to carry a gun for?’ ‘I’ve got you!’

On the plus side, as long as society remains reasonably stable (And, we continue to live in the country) my wife’s chances of getting into a life or death gunfight remain relatively slim. (Unlike one of our neighbors who took 4 rounds through his dining room window at 1:30 in the morning a couple of years ago! 'Cherche la femme.') ;)

I have mixed emotions on what caliber(s) are the best for a woman to use? With the proper training my first recommendation would be 45 acp; however, the student needs to be well-trained, has to be familiar with the characteristics of 45 acp recoil, as well as how to manage that recoil before I’d be genuinely comfortable with this recommendation.

Generally speaking, the anemic 9mm is an excellent choice for a woman to make. The only problem I ever see with this caliber is that 9mm self-defense ammo has become so, ‘souped up’ that a female shooter might as well go with 40 S&W or 357 SIG.

It’s been my universal experience that the slow heavy, ‘push’ of 45 acp recoil is always the easiest caliber with which to do serious CQB pistol work and repetitively fire at speed. In no case would I recommend a 22 long rifle caliber handgun for either self-defense or regular practice.

When it comes to self-defense shooting, use the same pistol, in the same caliber, that you would use in order to defend yourself. :victory:

[MrGreenJeans]

Weather permitting i will be shooting with my daughter next evening. Rifle, pistol 22 and larger calb.s in both. Just gave here a 20 ga. shotgun yesterday i redone. I think she liked it a lot.

[Cat Lover]

A man who doesn't want his women armed is no man at all .... just a boy child. Send him back to the garage to fondle his wrenches ....

A recent event highlights some of the differences between men and women. A felon skipped his probation in St. Louis, went to Ohio, and decided to enter an open hotel room and rob the six people within. The 70-yr old grandmother said 'let me get my purse,' and shot the man dead. There are lessons in that story.

The first is that women tend to wear form-fitting clothes, and carry purses. Note the plural: watch a woman in a city, and sh will likely have a purse, a shopping bag, a gym bag, and lord knows how many other 'bags' on her person as she goes about her business. What she will usually not have are pockets full of stuff.

Guy think of things like holsters and vests and 'inside the pants' rigs. Women may have sweaters, scarves, wraps, smocks, and all manner of other garments to 'complete' their outfits. Inside the thigh holsters? Oh, please .... try it bubba, just try strapping a 1911 to the inside of your larger thigh, and walking about. Then try drawing it!

So, the 'secret' of successful concealed carry for women is not to be secret at all - but to carry in a manner that looks ordinary. This is where the belly bag and specialty purses come into play. You hide it in plain sight. there are few situations that can't be resolved with a quick tug on the velcro. BTDT!

Let's look at the hardware itself. Remember the first rule: only hits count. While all manner of experts will 'prove' that 9mm is far better than .380, I carry my .380 (and leave the 9mm at home) simply because I shoot it so much better!

Let's look at what we are defending against. A cougar in the woods? While that's not much of a possibility, when a cougar does attack a person, it's almost always a woman. You're not going to see kitty coming; he's going to jump on you from behind as you jog or bicycle on by. Ladies, will you be able to acess your gun then, as you roll around in the dirt? If so, even a .38 special or .380 will get kitty's attention, and a revolver is less likley to get jammed by your exertions.

The fact remains, though, that cougars are pretty much a non-issue. What do women fear most? Why, other women. A look at our prisons shows more 'bad girls' these days. Fortunately, female thugs are as stupid as their male counterparts, and the same principles apply: conceal in 'plain sight,' and make the ugly macho gun look pretty and like something else. Add a rhinestone or two, and folks will interpret the glitter they glimpse as cheap jewelry - not a gun. Etc.

Though don't get hung up on size. The sight of even a teeny .22 derringer in Granny's hand will often cause a creep to go play elsewhere. There's a psychological effect there. I submit that the POS mousegun you have in your hand beats the super-magnum terror-terminator you left at home.

Have a name for your gun. No, not 'Rodney" or "Arnold!" :D Call it something innocuous. Say 'let me get my flashlight' or 'I need my compact.' The voice is another weapon in the arsenal. Never let anyone know in advance that you are armed, or they will act to counter that. Let surprise work for you.

Speaking of the voice ... "On you knees dirtbag" just doesn't work for women. Let your eyes and serious face do your talking for you. Let the cretin's vivid imagination fill in the blanks. And if HE bats his eyelashes at you, shoot the bugger - as he's up to something. Men don't bat their eyelashes normally.

Well, I've said more than I planned ... thank you for reading this far.

[Oblio13]

A couple random comments:

My wife and daughters seem to do well with Kahr 9mm's. Easy to conceal, comfortable to carry, simple to operate.

Keep concealed carry simple as well: Outside the waistband, strong side.

Before you do anything else, establish a good foundation with professional training. Not from your uncle "who knows all about guns" or a friend "who was in the army".

Competition is great training because it adds an element of stress. There are other fun ways to add stress. A simple wager perhaps, or paintball and airsoft games (a couple welts will do a lot to help you learn the right way to clear rooms ;)).

A defensive encounter is most likely to happen very quickly, at very close range, in the dark, in an awkward position, with some grappling involved. Lose the "square range mentality" and train appropriately.